42 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

It just seems to me, given all the facts presented by Ken in his article, that the most logical result if there is a merger is that they will stay in 200 Public Square. 

Not so sure.  I feel like someone with the ego and grandeur of Goncalves will want his own building eventually.

Who knows.  if they only need like 15 floors, it may be worth gradually taking over 200 PS. 

On 8/14/2023 at 11:03 PM, LlamaLawyer said:

The pessimism is kind of amusing. Here we have a fortune 500 company based in Cleveland since before the civil war, with Cleveland being part of its name, trying to acquire another huge company and people are talking about maybe Cliffs will move away as a result.

 

I’ve changed my mind. We don’t need 4 steel producers in this country. 3 is plenty. Get the deal done, Lourenco!

 

The symbolism of a company with "Cleveland" in its name buying the outfit that that gave the world the Steelers' helmet logo would make me smile.  Here we go merger, here we go, woof woof!

 

13 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Would Cliffs + USS = a new tower?

By Ken Prendergast / August 15, 2023

 

Three years ago, when Cleveland-Cliffs made some big moves, NEOtrans asked the question. Three years later, we’re asking it again. If Cliffs is able to acquire rival United States Steel (USS), as recently proposed, what impact might this have on the combined company’s headquarters situation?

 

READ MORE

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/08/15/would-cliffsuss-a-new-tower/

According to Brent Zimmerman on LinkedIn, the answer is no.

An acquisition doesn't appear to be likely at this point.  Not an insider, just based on what I've read and seen.  But why would they move out of 200 PS anyhow if it happened?  The building is riddled with vacancy, plenty of space. And I would think given the state of the buildings vacancy, and the downtown office market, Cliffs would have a lot of leverage in negotiations with the landlord.  Just my thoughts!  and I'm sure as heck not an insider!  

Seems like NEOTrans is down for me so I can’t fully verify this but with Medical Mutual leaving didn’t that leave the Rose Building almost completely empty? At 381,000 sq. Feet and sitting on a prominent and busy corner, I’d imagine a move and redevelopment of that building would make more sense financially.

I feel that pre-pandemic a tower would make sense but with so many people giving back their office space there are a number of options available.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alright, so this is HIGHLY HIGHLY speculative rumor, but that's what we do here so, I've gotta share. Fourth-hand rumor (i.e.  I heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody) who works at Cliffs. Elon Musk is definitely in Cleveland and is here not just because he wants the X ticker, but because he wants to buy Cleveland Cliffs (and USS).

 

And with that, I'll be heading back down to the mines under Lake Erie in an attempt to get the amount of salt that this rumor deserves to be taken with.

14 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

but because he wants to buy Cleveland Cliffs

 

...checks the value of the few shares of CLF I own...

 

lol

How realistic is it building a new tower if the company takes on debt to buy US Steel, meanwhile both lost between $1B and $4B last year?

 

It's crazy to me these historic titan companies are valued so much below tech. Cliffs is valued at $8.47B, while Twitter when Elon bought it was worth $44B (clearly less now).

6 hours ago, Htsguy said:

It just seems to me, given all the facts presented by Ken in his article, that the most logical result if there is a merger is that they will stay in 200 Public Square. 

 

That's far and away the most likely scenario, though they may put their name on the building.

9 hours ago, cfdwarrior said:

I would think the nuCLEus site would be another possibility.   (or the area North of the SHW parking garage, or the parking lot across from Mallorca)

 

Also, shall we begin to speculate the height of a new tower (with and without a merger)? 

Yes, we should speculate...

Alright, so this is HIGHLY HIGHLY speculative rumor, but that's what we do here so, I've gotta share. Fourth-hand rumor (i.e.  I heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody) who works at Cliffs. Elon Musk is definitely in Cleveland and is here not just because he wants the X ticker, but because he wants to buy Cleveland Cliffs (and USS).
 
And with that, I'll be heading back down to the mines under Lake Erie in an attempt to get the amount of salt that this rumor deserves to be taken with.

He can’t even get a handle on Twitter right now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just as long as he doesn't do to Cliffs USS what he did to employees at Twitter....

Sorry about NEOtrans being down. All of the servers are down at the place where my site is hosted.

 

BTW, for those wondering if a Fortune 500 company would build a new headquarters several years after acquiring a rival, please see Sherwin-Williams post-Valspar (an $11 billion acquisition).

5 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

...in an attempt to get the amount of salt that this rumor deserves to be taken with.

@LlamaLawyer I know that outrageous speculation is built into our collective DNA here at UO, but Good Lord, dear Sir, you are entering "AI hallucination" territory!  🤗

 

Could it be as simple he visited Ciffs to try to lock down price of electrical steel for Tesla motors? 

 

Just fooling ...no harm, no foul! 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 20231 yr by DO_Summers

4 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Yes, we should speculate...

Is Gilbert in town also?

11 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Just as long as he doesn't do to Cliffs USS what he did to employees at Twitter....

 

Nobody in manufacturing has nearly the kind of staffing Twitter had.

Right.  They don't need any fact checkers.

U.S. Steel takeover would threaten Pittsburgh's identity, historians say

 

This isn’t the first time potential buyers have approached U.S. Steel, the company that built American skyscrapers and railroads and made Pittsburgh a manufacturing hub for the nation. But to longtime observer and historian Bill Flanagan, something feels different now.

 

https://www.post-gazette.com/business/powersource/2023/08/17/us-steel-pittsburgh-cleveland-cliffs-esmark/stories/202308160095

Good article. So if US Steel maintains its independence, the Pittsburgh region loses its mills but keeps its HQ? But if Cliffs buys US Steel, it maintains the mills but Pittsburgh loses US Steel's headquarters?

 

Which future does Pittsburgh want?

Jeez that’s a sad article.

 

Pittsburgh is such a great city, and it pains me that this institution is going away. I didn’t realize USS was in such dire straights though, and it sounds like being bought out by a neighbor is the best thing for everyone.

 

Maybe Cliffs can rebrand to “Cleveland-Pittsburgh Steel.” 😉

They can be Cleveland-Pittsburgh Steel once PNC rebrands PNC-National City Bank. Otherwise, Cleveland looks to be the clear winner here very soon while exacting some corporate revenge for the raw deal National City received to the benefit of PNC.

 It certainly would be nice to see Cleveland come out as a winner.  Cleveland has been on the losing end so many times over the last few decades.

Yeah... forget putting Pittsburgh in the name.  If the merger actually happens, it should remain Cleveland-Cliffs and Pittsburgh would just have to deal with it (same as us having to deal with PNC).

Like I said back in the day, PNC:

• Pittsburgh Not Cleveland
• Previously National City

 

I'm not sure what Cliffs would get if USS is sold piecemeal. Every bidder will be chasing after the Arkansas mills and probably the Alabama works.  Will anybody want the Chicago and Pittsburgh area stuff? Those are the mills the Steelworkers are most interested in.

 

FWIW, my heart doesn't break for acquired companies. In most cases mergers happen because the management of the acquired companies lost interest, screwed up, or just wanted to grab the cash. The middle-aged and older workers are mainly the ones who suffer.

4 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

 It certainly would be nice to see Cleveland come out as a winner.  Cleveland has been on the losing end so many times over the last few decades.

I just hope if there is a merger, Cleveland would be the location of the new HQ.  My concern is the HQ location would be in a "neutral" city such as Chicago.

47 minutes ago, DHubb said:

I just hope if there is a merger, Cleveland would be the location of the new HQ.  My concern is the HQ location would be in a "neutral" city such as Chicago.

 

The best solution is to put the headquarters right in the middle--Youngstown. Already a steel city--everybody wins! 

1 hour ago, DHubb said:

I just hope if there is a merger, Cleveland would be the location of the new HQ.  My concern is the HQ location would be in a "neutral" city such as Chicago.

LOL, is the CEO building a mansion in Bay Village?

Lol! Hope so!

Interesting kink in the process according to Barrons:  

 

"Thursday, The United Steelworkers, or USW, essentially backed a bid by Cleveland-Cliffs CLF to acquire U.S. Steel by assigning its right to bid for the steel company to Cleveland-Cliffs. That matters because an agreement between the Union and U.S. Steel specifies that if the Union bids, the company isn’t allowed to accept other offers unless the board determines they are superior. A second condition of the labor agreement is that any buyer must reach a deal with the union before a merger can be closed, but a buyer can also simply assume the conditions of the existing labor contract."

 

Cliffs thinks they have a veto over any other merger.  USS disagrees.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/m/bc3ac2a0-88cb-36bc-b713-c7ea47d444f3/steel-union-throws-a.html

I heard about this potential merger trough my brother-in-law that lives in Pittsburgh.  OMG they are not happy. Seriously though the city has moved on from Carnegie Steel a long time ago. What comes around goes around sooner or later. Be humble and kind. Why am I still smiling 😁? 

Summary: Esmark Inc., one of the bidders for United States Steel Corp., has announced that it will not be bidding for the steelmaker. The CEO, James P. Bouchard, cited the relationship between Esmark and United Steelworkers as the reason for abandoning the potential bid. The United Steelworkers have shown support for the $7.3 billion bid by Cleveland-Cliffs Inc. Esmark had previously made a $7.8 billion all-cash offer for U.S. Steel. Bouchard stated that they will evaluate any opportunities in connection with the bidding process, subject to support from the United Steelworkers. U.S. Steel has not yet commented on the matter.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cleveland/news/2023/08/23/esmark-drops-bid-for-u-s-steel.html

Edited August 23, 20231 yr by downtownjoe

And now Cliffs needs to figure out what divestitures will make the merger acceptable to the feds.

One of the biggest hurdles for Cliffs is that they would own 100% of the pig iron blast furnace production, 50% of the domestic flat steel market, a near monopoly with auto body sheet steel production, and 100% of iron ore production. I think Cliffs is a far better managed company than U.S. Steel, but I am not seeing this go through without Cliffs spinning off some of these mills. It would be the lesser performing sites that are already declining.

7 hours ago, seicer said:

One of the biggest hurdles for Cliffs is that they would own 100% of the pig iron blast furnace production, 50% of the domestic flat steel market, a near monopoly with auto body sheet steel production, and 100% of iron ore production. I think Cliffs is a far better managed company than U.S. Steel, but I am not seeing this go through without Cliffs spinning off some of these mills. It would be the lesser performing sites that are already declining.

 

I'm no expert on this stuff, but it seems to me that if Cliffs can get away with just divesting from some marginal and declining mills that the goal of antitrust regulation is being sidestepped and real competition is not being preserved.

That's what I was kind of suspecting.

 

Edgar Thomson Works in the Pittsburgh area would most likely remain as it has wide processing facilities, but with blast furnaces that are some of the oldest still running (but greatly expanded and rebuilt). Gary Works in Indiana is the flagship of U.S. Steel and its furnaces were recently overhauled/upgraded. Clairton Works (coking facility) would be shut down as Cliffs is relying on hot briquette iron (HBI) for its blast furnaces, BOFs and EAFs furnaces instead of coke. The East Chicago Tin works would be closed (already mothballed) with all operations sent to the tin mill at Weirton Works. Granite City is just processing on a few lines now with its furnaces idled permanently, and Great Lakes is down to just processing with its furnaces idled permanently, too. Great Lakes has more modern wide facilities, so I suspect Granite City will be idled completely.

 

The other major bidder was Esmark but they don't have the best track record with its operations. It would probably have been like AK Steel, which bought up Armco only to slowly wind down operations because of disinvestment. Arcelor-Mittal is now the only other challenger and they are notorious for doing the same thing.

I wonder what all of this means for the Lorain Tubular Operations mill.  Last news I can find is that it was idled in 2020.  Can't figure out if it was ever restarted, but US Steel's website lists it as if it is in operation.

the lorain mill has been totally idled since then.

 

back at its at peak it had 17,000 workers.

 

 

now add canton and lackawanna to that list too:

 

 

Republic Steel owner to idle operations at Canton mill indefinitely

 

Grupo Simec, which owns Republic Steel, says about 500 employees will be furloughed indefinitely at its mills in Canton and western New York.

 

Author: Dave DeNatale

Published: 7:59 PM EDT August 10, 2023

 

 

more:

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/stark-county/republic-steel-owner-idle-canton-steelmaking-mill/95-f4693459-f832-43ca-b5e0-5e53525ccd07

On 8/16/2023 at 2:04 PM, LlamaLawyer said:

Alright, so this is HIGHLY HIGHLY speculative rumor, but that's what we do here so, I've gotta share. Fourth-hand rumor (i.e.  I heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody) who works at Cliffs. Elon Musk is definitely in Cleveland and is here not just because he wants the X ticker, but because he wants to buy Cleveland Cliffs (and USS).

 

And with that, I'll be heading back down to the mines under Lake Erie in an attempt to get the amount of salt that this rumor deserves to be taken with.

 

 

handle and avatar pic checks out. 😂

 

but seriously, wild cool rumor. what a world!  🤷‍♂️

a bit of strategy commentary --

 

 

 

Cleveland-Cliffs: Consolidation At Any Cost Comes With Strings Attached

 

Aug. 23, 2023 12:45 PM ETCleveland-Cliffs Inc. (CLF)X

Vladimir Dimitrov, CFA

 

 

For anyone who has been following Cleveland-Cliffs (NYSE:CLF) over the years, the recent bid for United States Steel Corporation (X) is hardly a surprising move.

 

The much-needed consolidation within the industry has been going for quite some time and Cliffs' CEO - Lourenco Goncalves is not deviating from his aggressive M&A approach. He is certainly not the type of CEO who will be swayed by quarterly developments and temporary macroeconomic headwinds in his ambition to create a national champion in steel production at a time when geopolitical imbalances are reaching unsustainable levels.

 

As he is setting even more ambitious goals, however, discontent among shareholders is growing as CLF continues to underperform two of its major peers - Nucor (NUE) and Steel Dynamics (STLD).

 

 

more:

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4630589-cleveland-cliffs-consolidation-at-any-cost-comes-with-strings-attached

2 hours ago, X said:

I wonder what all of this means for the Lorain Tubular Operations mill.  Last news I can find is that it was idled in 2020.  Can't figure out if it was ever restarted, but US Steel's website lists it as if it is in operation.

 

I've authored a history of the facility at https://abandonedonline.net/location/national-tube-company-lorain-works/

 

USS and Kobe banded together to acquire and operate National Tube in 1989 - excluding the pipe mill which continued to be owned and operated by USS. The furnaces were only operating at 50% capacity. Lorain Works saw some investment with a new bloom caster and other upgrades to make it more competitive for automakers. But it was really the blackout and subsequent fire and explosion of Blast Furnace No. 3 in 2003 that killed the plant. - because of neglect of the backup power systems by USS and Kobe. Repairs were initiated but the furnace could not be restarted. It then restarted No. 4 which had not been operated in some time... which was idled in 2008 because of the decline of Republic Steel (then owner). It was thought that the saving grace would be a new electric arc furnace installed in 2013 to help feed into demand brought on by the gas/oil drilling boom, but overseas competition (import dumping) helped kill what was left of the steelmaking side in 2015. USS had idled its tubular operations just before that.

 

They keep talking about restarting the furnaces but with USS indefinitely idling all operations in the tubular mill in 2020, you won't see any steel production on the other side of the plant. Plus, the only salvageable furnace that's left is the No. 4 as No. 3 can't be restarted, and No. 1, No. 2, and No. 5 are essentially at scrap value now. Their linings have deteriorated and the equipment were not winterized.

 

-

 

Republic Steel has long been a declining steel producer and pretty much just makes SBQ steel bars and had been the only producer of leaded steel in North America. It's owned by a conglomerate from Mexico. Part of the issue was that the Canton plant, which made leaded steel, was an environmental nightmare for the company. It had to pay a lot of fines while increasing its environmental compliance - and in the end, is closing that plant and moving it to a new mill in Tlaxcala, Mexico where the regulations are a lot more lax and where the mill isn't by any residential areas.

 

The company was also shipping stuff to what was left of Bethlehem Steel's Lackawanna, NY steel mill for refinement. That production is also ending as it wasn't cost efficient to continue to run. It was also dependent on Canton's operations.

Edited August 25, 20231 yr by seicer

7 hours ago, seicer said:

Republic Steel has long been a declining steel producer and pretty much just makes SBQ steel bars and had been the only producer of leaded steel in North America. It's owned by a conglomerate from Mexico. Part of the issue was that the Canton plant, which made leaded steel, was an environmental nightmare for the company. It had to pay a lot of fines while increasing its environmental compliance - and in the end, is closing that plant and moving it to a new mill in Tlaxcala, Mexico where the regulations are a lot more lax and where the mill isn't by any residential areas.

 

A little bit of background, leaded steel isn't very high lead   12L14 is about 0.25% lead.  It's the most commonly used steel machining bar stock (which is what we do).   

 

https://www.cantonrep.com/story/news/2022/03/03/republic-steel-only-manufacturer-leaded-steel-ohio/6848540001/

i know the union doesnt want them, but arcelor mittal may try to jump back into this.

4 hours ago, mrnyc said:

i know the union doesnt want them, but arcelor mittal may try to jump back into this.

Would they have a leg to stand on without the union?

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2023/08/cleveland-cliffs-reaches-contract-deal-with-united-steelworkers.html

 

...hopefully.

I'm looking to the moment when we can say. . . . . 

 

Crain's says 200 Public Square is up for sale.  Maybe Cliffs will buy it - start collecting rent instead of paying it.  

 

200 Public Square in downtown Cleveland hits the market | Crain's Cleveland Business (crainscleveland.com)

Cliff's question:  In the old days an acquiring company would quietly buy up maybe 10% of the target's stock before announcing an acquisition plan; typically the stock would be bargain-priced guaranteeing a profit on the 10% holding even if the deal fell through or somebody else bid higher. 

 

Cliff's has not done so.  Why not? Have the laws changed preventing this?