The latest Case-Shiller numbers are out this morning. Latest data are for July 2020.

 

"The S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller Home Price Indices are the leading measures of U.S. residential real estate prices, tracking changes in the value of residential real estate in 20 metropolitan regions."

 

Cleveland's YTD price growth was 6.08% -- that's one of the highest in the US.  Minneapolis, Seattle (7.74%), and Phoenix were the only cities that were slightly higher, with Seattle being the highest.  Chicago--since people like to compare us to that market--was 3.08%.   For the 20-city composite, price growth YTD was 3.6%.

 

https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/index-family/indicators/sp-corelogic-case-shiller/#overview

I was just going through all of the August transfers in South Euclid today. It was probably our best month since 2005, which is what I said about July too, and June before that. Our average sales price was $130k, and we had more houses sell for over $200k than under $80k. Up until the last couple of months, the average had been under $100k, and there would regularly be numerous sales for under $30k. The distressed market in the city has all but disappeared now, and even vintage bungalows that haven't been updated since the 70s are selling for $80-90k. Updated bungalows are selling for $160k+. The market is exceptionally tight right now. I was just on a conference a few days ago with a realtor who was telling us the total number of houses on the market in Greater Cleveland/Akron is something like 2500, when 5 years ago it was more like 7500.

@PoshSteve's post inspired me to look at the numbers as well. All of the the following are based on Single-family homes with "Active" listing status.

 

This is original research so there may be errors.

 

I see 6929 listings across the entire MLS.

5064 across the Cleveland–Akron–Canton, OH CSA's member counties (note: low numbers in e.g. the Sandusky area where the Firelands MLS is more prevalent).

 

Cleveland–Elyria, OH MSA: 3088

- Cuyahoga: 1833
- Lorain: 559
- Lake: 335
- Medina: 208
- Geauga: 153

 

Akron, OH MSA: 868

- Summit: 693

- Portage: 175

 

Canton–Massillon, OH MSA: 561

- Stark: 506

- Carroll: 55

 

Others in CSA:

Wayne: 113

Ashtabula: 211

Tuscarawas: 126

Erie: 73

Huron: 24

 

Some statistics for Cuyahoga County (same filters):

 

Days on Market: Median of 39.45; 25th percentile of 12.98; 75th percentile of 100.58; 99th of 546.6

Price: Median of $199,223.18; 25th percentile of $109,967.80; 75th percentile of $399,598.61; 99th percentile of $1,864,600.00

 

Cleveland statistics (same filters):

Properties: 509
Days on Market: Median of 41.49; 25th percentile of 14.86; 75th percentile of 121.22; 99th percentile of 567.77

Price: Median of $120,900; 25th percentile of $69,900; 75th percentile of $289,900; 99th percentile of $688,272

Thanks for pulling that info! That definitely looks like a tight market to me - 1833 houses for sale in a county of 1.2M people. I'm not sure exactly when the last time Cuyahoga County had an average sales price of 200k (other than the last couple of months), but I'd be it was last before the housing crisis. Off first glance, I would say this shows a slower market in the city than the suburbs. I wonder how much of that is down to the divide we see between east and west sides, and I'm sure data from the near west side would show sales as quick, if not quicker, than the suburb averages.

41 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

Thanks for pulling that info! That definitely looks like a tight market to me - 1833 houses for sale in a county of 1.2M people. I'm not sure exactly when the last time Cuyahoga County had an average sales price of 200k (other than the last couple of months), but I'd be it was last before the housing crisis. Off first glance, I would say this shows a slower market in the city than the suburbs. I wonder how much of that is down to the divide we see between east and west sides, and I'm sure data from the near west side would show sales as quick, if not quicker, than the suburb averages.

 

I'd undoubtedly think the numbers are quite different by neighborhood within the city; I have to come to the same conclusion that the market is slower for the city as a whole vs the county as a whole, but I am sure that it's very different in terms of selection, multiple offers/sold above listing, etc, for say Mt Pleasant vs Ohio City.

 

The numbers I pulled are listing prices, not sold prices, so that is worth noting.

Two items in the weekly Plain Dealer RE transactions list today caught my eye:

 

2044 Random Rd Unit 303 - $717.5K  and Unit 404 - $604K.  And THAT is the payoff of gentrification - a tax bonanza without raising rates.

^Yes, people who can afford such prices may be spending their money eating at the restaurants nearby and supporting them, and that's a good thing.  But on the topic of real estate and the "tax bonanza" you cited, of the transaction fees assessed, how much does the City of Cleveland get vs. Ohio or Cuyahoga County?  

 

Under Ohio law:  

 

"The conveyance fee consists of two parts. A statewide mandatory tax of 1 mill ($1 per $1,000 dollars of the value of property sold or transferred) applies in all 88 of Ohio’s counties. In addition, counties may also impose a permissive real property transfer tax of up to 3 additional mills." (https://tax.ohio.gov/static/communications/publications/brief_summaries/new internet feb_7_2012/real_property_conveyance_fee_2_8.pdf)

 

And in Cuyahoga:

 

Conveyance Fee: 0.4% of the sale price or value of real property being transferred.
Transfer Fee: $0.50 per lot or part of lot transferred.
Recording Fee: $34.00 for the first two pages and $8.00 for each additional page of each document recorded. (Half of all recording fees collected are required to be submitted to the state to the credit 0of the Ohio Housing Trust Fund.)   (https://fiscalofficer.cuyahogacounty.us/en-US/real-estate-services.aspx)

I may be wrong but I don't think he's talking about the taxes/fees that are incurred at transfer.

This talk about taxes reminded me of a reddit thread I saw the other day: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cleveland/comments/j8k7hc/do_you_get_the_feeling_that_the_city_of_cleveland/

 

Obviously some conflicting opinions there, but it got me thinking... does Cleveland have any measurable published data on the effects of the tax abatement? My own feeling is that it has been an overall net positive for the city, but I don't have any data to back that up. Just the observation that things are improving quickly in some hot neighborhoods as well as starting to spill over into the areas nearby the hot ones.

2 hours ago, dastler said:

Obviously some conflicting opinions there, but it got me thinking... does Cleveland have any measurable published data on the effects of the tax abatement? My own feeling is that it has been an overall net positive for the city, but I don't have any data to back that up.

 

Cleveland's revenue in 2016 was $32.4 million from properrty taxes and $314.8 million from income taxes.  In 2019 it was $37.9 million from property taxes and $441.8 million from income taxes.   (Taken from the Mayor's Estimates at the city website.)

 

So, property tax is rising, some portion because assessments increase and some as properties time-out of the 15 year abatement and pay their full load. But, the increase in income tax all but makes the property tax irrelevant. At the same time by census numbers, the number of people in Cleveland in poverty remains somewhere around 125-135,000 year after year after year.

 

So I think it's fair to say that the abatement, if it is encouraging employed people to move to the city in any significant number at all, is well worth its cost in marginal property tax revenue in light of the enormous growth in income tax revenue.

 

Then, too, I think the mayor did react to the neglect criticism in 2018 and 2019 specifically by instituting Circle North, Villa Hispanica, Slavic Village, and one other (I forget which) investment projects. These projects, paid for by the income tax increase, are already showing signs of success themselves generating additional neighborhood investment.  

 

 

I'm trying to get some of these Chicago developers who are investing in Cleveland to speak on the record why they are investing here. I'm told second-hand that tax abatement is a big attraction for them.

Michelle Jarboe at Crains is looking in depth at the tax abatements. Here is her first story on it, and she's said she intends to do more looking at the details on the effects of specific neighborhoods and particularly the neighborhoods that aren't "hot".

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/residential-tax-abatement-remains-fraught-and-complicated-topic-cleveland

On 10/11/2020 at 2:42 PM, Pugu said:

^Yes, people who can afford such prices may be spending their money eating at the restaurants nearby and supporting them, and that's a good thing.  But on the topic of real estate and the "tax bonanza" you cited, of the transaction fees assessed, how much does the City of Cleveland get vs. Ohio or Cuyahoga County?  

 

Under Ohio law:  

 

"The conveyance fee consists of two parts. A statewide mandatory tax of 1 mill ($1 per $1,000 dollars of the value of property sold or transferred) applies in all 88 of Ohio’s counties. In addition, counties may also impose a permissive real property transfer tax of up to 3 additional mills." (https://tax.ohio.gov/static/communications/publications/brief_summaries/new internet feb_7_2012/real_property_conveyance_fee_2_8.pdf)

 

And in Cuyahoga:

 

Conveyance Fee: 0.4% of the sale price or value of real property being transferred.
Transfer Fee: $0.50 per lot or part of lot transferred.
Recording Fee: $34.00 for the first two pages and $8.00 for each additional page of each document recorded. (Half of all recording fees collected are required to be submitted to the state to the credit 0of the Ohio Housing Trust Fund.)   (https://fiscalofficer.cuyahogacounty.us/en-US/real-estate-services.aspx)

 

On 10/12/2020 at 2:22 PM, KJP said:

I may be wrong but I don't think he's talking about the taxes/fees that are incurred at transfer.

 

 

Maybe so, but now I'm curious about it.  At property sale how much does the city get vs the haul taken by the County and the state?  I tried to give an example using the parameters above of the actual the county number seems to violate the state rule:

 

On a $1M property, the state gets $1,000 ($1 per $1,000 dollars of the value)

and at 0.4% the county would get $4,000--but this would violate the state's "In addition, counties may also impose a permissive real property transfer tax of up to 3 additional mills." which would be $3,000.   Maybe the state rule (published 2012) has since changed.  But in any event, does the city get any of it?

16 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

Cleveland's revenue in 2016 was $32.4 million from properrty taxes and $314.8 million from income taxes.  In 2019 it was $37.9 million from property taxes and $441.8 million from income taxes.   (Taken from the Mayor's Estimates at the city website.)

 

So, property tax is rising, some portion because assessments increase and some as properties time-out of the 15 year abatement and pay their full load. But, the increase in income tax all but makes the property tax irrelevant. At the same time by census numbers, the number of people in Cleveland in poverty remains somewhere around 125-135,000 year after year after year.

 

So I think it's fair to say that the abatement, if it is encouraging employed people to move to the city in any significant number at all, is well worth its cost in marginal property tax revenue in light of the enormous growth in income tax revenue.

 

Then, too, I think the mayor did react to the neglect criticism in 2018 and 2019 specifically by instituting Circle North, Villa Hispanica, Slavic Village, and one other (I forget which) investment projects. These projects, paid for by the income tax increase, are already showing signs of success themselves generating additional neighborhood investment.  

 

 

Thank you for the data! I had to double check, and the last income tax increase was Jan 1 2016, so that is apples to apples. That is honestly astounding to me, it means that there's an additional $5B of income from Cleveland's residents in 3 years if my math is right? ($127M in additional tax, 2.5% tax rate for $5B increase?)

 

The flip side question is would people be moving into the city without the tax abatement, and that one is much harder to answer.

5 minutes ago, dastler said:

Thank you for the data! I had to double check, and the last income tax increase was Jan 1 2016, so that is apples to apples. That is honestly astounding to me, it means that there's an additional $5B of income from Cleveland's residents in 3 years if my math is right? ($127M in additional tax, 2.5% tax rate for $5B increase?)

 

The flip side question is would people be moving into the city without the tax abatement, and that one is much harder to answer.

Would love to see some scientific polling and analysis on the issue.  While I of course have no idea what the consensus is, I can speak from personal experience.  I received a 50% 10 years tax abatement when I moved into a new townhouse in Cleveland Hts. a number of years ago.  For me personally the primary factors when choosing the house was location, its style and whether the floor plan meet my needs.  The abatement was a nice perk but was more icing on the cake than anything else.  I would have bought the house even without the abatement (and property taxes in CH are crazy high, especially compared to Cleveland).

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, dastler said:

The flip side question is would people be moving into the city without the tax abatement, and that one is much harder to answer.

 

I admit I proposed a very macro-level answer to your question; but the comparison with the income tax does point out the near-irrelevancy of the residential property tax in terms of absolute dollars.  Cleveland may have reached a point where the residential abatement could be phased-out.

 

I have previously suggested that Cleveland should adopt a constant-yield system, where the tax rate varies downward as the property value increases - unless there is a change in ownership.  That has worked well in other jurisdictions where residents are faced with having to sell their appreciating homes because of unaffordable tax increases, a condition that is becoming more likely in several Cleveland neighborhoods. 

Except for low-income/affordable housing supported by LIHTCs, residential development in Cleveland would virtually disappear. That's not my belief. That's what developers are telling me, including those in Chicago who are now investing here.

20 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

Cleveland's revenue in 2016 was $32.4 million from properrty taxes and $314.8 million from income taxes.  In 2019 it was $37.9 million from property taxes and $441.8 million from income taxes.   (Taken from the Mayor's Estimates at the city website.)

 

So, property tax is rising, some portion because assessments increase and some as properties time-out of the 15 year abatement and pay their full load. But, the increase in income tax all but makes the property tax irrelevant. At the same time by census numbers, the number of people in Cleveland in poverty remains somewhere around 125-135,000 year after year after year.

 

So I think it's fair to say that the abatement, if it is encouraging employed people to move to the city in any significant number at all, is well worth its cost in marginal property tax revenue in light of the enormous growth in income tax revenue.

 

Then, too, I think the mayor did react to the neglect criticism in 2018 and 2019 specifically by instituting Circle North, Villa Hispanica, Slavic Village, and one other (I forget which) investment projects. These projects, paid for by the income tax increase, are already showing signs of success themselves generating additional neighborhood investment.  

 

 

So income taxes have seen a 40% increase and property taxes have seen a 17% increase.  I don't see what the problem is.  We are seeing increased revenue into the city, we are seeing neighborhoods transformed and this transformation then seeps into other bordering neighborhoods, and we are seeing tons of people wanting to live in Cleveland who have never before.  

 

Now there definitely needs to be more Circle North's and the like.  We definitely need more developments that include workforce housing like Tappan. But why end what has been a positive for the city especially when we still such a long way to go?

Edited October 14, 20204 yr by cle_guy90

I don’t think Council has acted on it yet, but the Tax Abatement study was released earlier this year. 
 

I think the recommendations could help improve the incentive system.

 

https://www.greaterohio.org/publications/2020/7/27/cleveland-tax-abatement-study

49 minutes ago, KJP said:

Except for low-income/affordable housing supported by LIHTCs, residential development in Cleveland would virtually disappear. That's not my belief. That's what developers are telling me, including those in Chicago who are now investing here.

 

This could be true for many or even most market rate multifamily projects, but unlikely to be true for single family.  The proof is the sales price we're now seeing for developable land.  Those high land costs reflect the higher residual value from development.  In the high value neighborhoods, if you reduce or eliminate the abatement, developers would get much of it back through lower land costs.  Especially if the city shifted more of the tax burden to land and away from improvements. This might make the very high end stuff less viable, but more moderately priced market rate houses would still probably pencil out. 

 

And note that the city's cut of the property taxes is low, but the as-of-right abatement also covers the much bigger property tax owed to the schools. Those $ aren't included in @Dougal's numbers.

 

And one other tricky thing: overall property appreciation doesn't affect the total property tax take as much as you'd think, because OH law has rates automatically adjust down to compensate.  There's some overall increase from the "inside" millage, but the main effect of a rise in value of an existing house in CLE is to redistribute the burden away from stagnant properties. 

Edited October 14, 20204 yr by StapHanger

Seems to me a better way to incentivize development would be reduce construction costs. Despite recent job increases, we still have a very limited labor pool after decades of a little construction. But the trade unions don't want to suddenly bring in large numbers of workers or it would depress wages (which needs to happen). Developers, contractors and subs need to take the lead on bringing in more labor. Start advertising for construction jobs in rural areas and small towns. We also need new materials, off-site/pre-fab construction techniques and automation to drive down the cost of new construction.

Not sure what this means, but I counted 6 houses in the Cleveland area listed for over $1million advertised in Friday's WSJ "Mansion" section.

On 10/17/2020 at 2:10 AM, Dougal said:

Not sure what this means, but I counted 6 houses in the Cleveland area listed for over $1million advertised in Friday's WSJ "Mansion" section.

I'm unfamiliar with this section and why it's noteworthy... Is the list homes hitting the market at >$1M? That would seem to indicate that prices on homes are rising? Or are you trying to say that high value homes are hitting the market which means people are leaving?

29 minutes ago, dastler said:

I'm unfamiliar with this section and why it's noteworthy... Is the list homes hitting the market at >$1M? That would seem to indicate that prices on homes are rising? Or are you trying to say that high value homes are hitting the market which means people are leaving?

I think it's noteworthy because Cleveland properties are very rarely advertised in the WSJ.  To see six on one day makes me think there is a serious market outside of Cleveland for high priced propertes IN the Cleveland area - something we haven't seen in a good while. 

Northeast Ohio home sales surged in October, fueled by low rates and bidding wars

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/northeast-ohio-home-sales-surged-october-fueled-low-rates-and-bidding-wars

 

"Across 18 counties, buyers purchased 5,479 houses and condominiums last month — a roughly 6% increase from September and a 21.5% jump from October 2019. "

"In Cuyahoga County, monthly sales topped their October 2019 levels by 19.8%."

" In the Cleveland area, the median — or middle — sale price for a previously owned home was $187,900, a 9.4% gain from the same period of 2019."

 

 

Cleveland is developing its ten year housing plan and are asking for community input. Here is the link to the survey, as well as more info:

 

https://www.clevelandhousingplan.com/participate.html?locale=en

 

"Flipping" is a vague term here. A huge percentage of those have been "investors" from out of state who do nothing more than throw on some paint and rent the houses out. It's not that there isn't demand from people who want to buy the houses to live in themselves either. The problem comes from the banks unwilling to loan in black neighborhoods, or make any loans under 50-75k period. The low prices in Cleveland make it so only those cash investors can buy the houses. More often then not, those cash investors are not making any major improvements to the properties, thus keeping their values low, and often times allowing them to decline and bring down neighboring values. Frank Ford at the Western Reserve Land Conservancy has done a huge amount of very thorough and excellent research on these topics. I don't see the above numbers as anything good though. 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Hi KJP, long time observer, first time posting. Felt honored you liked the tweet so figured it's time for me to take the dive posting. #ClevelandVsTheWorld

Welcome! Don't be a stranger!!

15 hours ago, Dr_nkBear said:

Hi KJP, long time observer, first time posting. Felt honored you liked the tweet so figured it's time for me to take the dive posting. #ClevelandVsTheWorld

Can you expand on what conclusions you're drawing from the data? I think you're saying that there are lots of houses moving hands but no one buying them to live in, but to me that would point to outside investors buying and renting them out rather than flippers. Is there something I'm missing?

@dastler and @PoshSteve My original tweet wasn't meant as a deep observation about the Cleveland market, more just general excitement about the market being hot. And since it was twitter, "house flipping" kept it short. 

 

Steve isn't wrong tho, historically there is a big chunk of out of state 'investors' buying property for tax/equity/etc. benefits and doing very little with it. And sometimes even leaving the property decrepit to be an eye sore on the block. But more recently there is a lot of cash coming in from out of state that see Cleveland as high upside investments who don't want sky rocket prices out East or in Chicago. 

Maybe in 2015 a lot of those cash buys were cash dumps from out of state into unkept houses but I believe presently those cash buys are investments in Cleveland from out of state. And they will greatly benefit the city long term. It takes a while to create confidence in a market, 2010-2015 people were still reeling. Downtown Cleveland and the near West side have been a revelation the last 6 years and out of state investors are taking notice. The future is bright!! 

 

 

10 hours ago, dastler said:

Can you expand on what conclusions you're drawing from the data? I think you're saying that there are lots of houses moving hands but no one buying them to live in, but to me that would point to outside investors buying and renting them out rather than flippers. Is there something I'm missing?

I cannot draw conclusions from others, but can share insights based upon my own observations.  Following the last real estate market crash, out-of-state "investors" were buying up houses by dozens and dozens, usually in older/inner-ring suburbs and Cleveland.  In my own area, there are at least 6 that went this route.  They all sold in the range of $45k to $63k.  These were all foreclosures or sold by the owners/surviving family members for the "best" price they could get.  From a realtor friend, he told me these "investors" weren't buying up properties for gains when the market rebounded.  They were purchased for rental income and no intent of resale.  For at least for some in my area, they have "guaranteed" income courtesy of the government.

 

At least when they did purchase them, they did fix them up and made improvements.  At least outwardly, they don't detract from the neighborhood.  Can't say that for some other rental properties owned by individuals or owner-occupied homes.  

Edited January 14, 20214 yr by LifeLongClevelander

1 hour ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

I cannot draw conclusions from others, but can share insights based upon my own observations.  Following the last real estate market crash, out-of-state "investors" were buying up houses by dozens and dozens, usually in older/inner-ring suburbs and Cleveland.  In my own area, there are at least 6 that went this route.  They all sold in the range of $45k to $63k.  These were all foreclosures or sold by the owners/surviving family members for the "best" price they could get.  From a realtor friend, he told me these "investors" weren't buying up properties for gains when the market rebounded.  They were purchased for rental income and no intent of resale.  For at least for some in my area, they have "guaranteed" income courtesy of the government.

 

At least when they did purchase them, they did fix them up and made improvements.  At least outwardly, they don't detract from the neighborhood.  Can't say that for some other rental properties owned by individuals or owner-occupied homes.  

I can confirm what you describe is happening.  A buddy of mine has been involved in this process since about 2012.  He buys houses for very cheap (often bank owned properties) in mostly more modest inner ring suburbs like Maple Hts and South Euclid, does a bare bones renovation (15,000 to 25,000), tires to get a tenant in and then sells to  out of town (and often out of country-Israelis are big clients) investors for about 70,000.  These investors have property managers here in town who do the bare minimum.  The investors are looking for 11-12% returns and hope for more.  These investors have scores of homes and are always hungry for more.  The competition for houses by the flippers like my buddy is intense, especially since it is important that they don't over pay upfront.  In my mind the problem with all this (other than huge swaths of neighborhoods are now owned by out of town entities rather than owner/occupiers) is that the chances are low additional capital improvements will be made by these types of investors in the future and the properties will slowly deteriorate. 

 

Greater Cleveland appears to be a good model for this scheme due to that fact housing prices are so low and growth is stagnant, especially in blue collar inner ring suburbs.  This model would of course not work in a market like LA.

Edited January 14, 20214 yr by Htsguy

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2021/01/200000-plus-is-now-the-norm-for-homes-in-clevelands-detroit-shoreway-ohio-city-and-tremont-neighborhoods-thats-rich.html
 

Rich does a great job as always analyzing the data for single family homes in Cleveland (note this doesn’t include condos, sheriffs deeds, or homes sold under $1k).  

From 2019-2020

Cleveland median home - $47,500 to $56,550 (up 19.1%)

 

Neighborhoods where the median is over 200k - Downtown, Tremont, Ohio City (up 63.5% from $156,250 to $255,500), University Circle, and Detroit Shoreway.

 

Neighborhoods that increase 20% or more in median price YoY- Riverside, Edgewater, Brooklyn Center, Ohio City, Clark Fulton, Industrial Valley, Fairfax, Kinsman, Buckeye Shaker, Mt. Pleasant, St. Clair Superior, Grenville, South Collinwood, and Forest Hills.

^ Wait till the 2021 #'s are released...Another house on w57th (between Bridge & Franklin) just went pending at 550k.

Edited January 14, 20214 yr by Clefan98

17 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I can confirm what you describe is happening.  A buddy of mine has been involved in this process since about 2012.  He buys houses for very cheap (often bank owned properties) in mostly more modest inner ring suburbs like Maple Hts and South Euclid, does a bare bones renovation (15,000 to 25,000), tires to get a tenant in and then sells to  out of town (and often out of country-Israelis are big clients) investors for about 70,000.  These investors have property managers here in town who do the bare minimum.  The investors are looking for 11-12% returns and hope for more.  These investors have scores of homes and are always hungry for more.  The competition for houses by the flippers like my buddy is intense, especially since it is important that they don't over pay upfront.  In my mind the problem with all this (other than huge swaths of neighborhoods are now owned by out of town entities rather than owner/occupiers) is that the chances are low additional capital improvements will be made by these types of investors in the future and the properties will slowly deteriorate. 

 

Greater Cleveland appears to be a good model for this scheme due to that fact housing prices are so low and growth is stagnant, especially in blue collar inner ring suburbs.  This model would of course not work in a market like LA.

 

And in South Euclid we will continue to hold their feet to the fire when the step out of line, and make this type of half-assed attitude very expensive. We don't put up with slum lords.

20 hours ago, Htsguy said:

....In my mind the problem with all this (other than huge swaths of neighborhoods are now owned by out of town entities rather than owner/occupiers) is that the chances are low additional capital improvements will be made by these types of investors in the future and the properties will slowly deteriorate. 

 

In a few years, I wonder how the condition these of properties will decline.  I see numerous instances where the tenants really don't care about the properties the live in.  No matter what kind of improvements were initially done, the work won't last forever.  If the residents don't care about doing even minor things now, will they care when more needs to be done later, especially since the property isn't theirs to begin with?  If the conditions go down enough, the tenants will just move someplace else.  

Here is the data from the suburbs. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2021/01/cuyahoga-county-home-prices-in-2020-up-more-sharply-than-at-any-time-since-the-housing-bust-see-details-for-each-town-thats-rich.html

 

This one has no paywall.  Relevant to the topic the average price of a home in South Euclid went up more than 25% from 95k to 120k.  Definitely can't all be from flips and slum lords.  Overall positive increases essentially everywhere (I'm sure very similar to the rest of the country as well given the pandemic).

15 hours ago, cle_guy90 said:

Here is the data from the suburbs. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2021/01/cuyahoga-county-home-prices-in-2020-up-more-sharply-than-at-any-time-since-the-housing-bust-see-details-for-each-town-thats-rich.html

 

This one has no paywall.  Relevant to the topic the average price of a home in South Euclid went up more than 25% from 95k to 120k.  Definitely can't all be from flips and slum lords.  Overall positive increases essentially everywhere (I'm sure very similar to the rest of the country as well given the pandemic).

 

This last year has been incredible. I just finished going through all the December property transfers in South Euclid. Our top sale last month was $374k, and the lowest was $50k. Overall we had an average of $136,500 on 48 sales. Even a few months ago, having zero sales under $50k would have been unheard of. I will say too that the one $50k sale was a house owned by an "investor" for the last few years where they slapped some paint on and rented it out. A similar house a few down on the same street where they did a decent rehab sold for $166k. You lose out if you're just going to halfass it.

On 1/15/2021 at 2:25 PM, PoshSteve said:

 

This last year has been incredible. I just finished going through all the December property transfers in South Euclid. Our top sale last month was $374k, and the lowest was $50k. Overall we had an average of $136,500 on 48 sales. Even a few months ago, having zero sales under $50k would have been unheard of. I will say too that the one $50k sale was a house owned by an "investor" for the last few years where they slapped some paint on and rented it out. A similar house a few down on the same street where they did a decent rehab sold for $166k. You lose out if you're just going to halfass it.

Where's the best place to find home sale data? I've been using zillow but have found that they don't have all the sales or they're added at different times so I miss some.

1 hour ago, dastler said:

Where's the best place to find home sale data? I've been using zillow but have found that they don't have all the sales or they're added at different times so I miss some.

 

We our monthly transfer dats through the First Suburbs Consortium. Data from the county recorder's office complied and hosted by CSU. Unfortunately I'm not sure if it's available for public consumption (I couldn't find it on the CSU website anywhere). 

 

NEOcando from Case is also a great resource that has alot of public data aggregated, including property transfers, and they're always adding more: https://neocando.case.edu/# 

If you work in gov or community development you can request access to their Neighborhood Strategy Technology that has even more data and mapping tools.

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/what-winter-doldrums-local-home-sales-rose-249-december

 

Cleveland area home sales up 24.9% in December. Compared with the nation as a whole, which was up 16.2%. Of particular note to me, the Cuyahoga County average sales price, at $202km is higher than the regional average ($201k) and also Summit County ($192k). For the longest time, Cuyahoga was always the laggard. 

Quote

U.S. homebuyers want to live in cities just as much as suburbs

Bloomberg February 04, 2021 09:22 AM

 

U.S. housing prices rose at essentially the same rate in urban and suburban areas last year, jumping 8.8% and 8.7% respectively, according to an analysis by Zillow released on Thursday, Feb. 4. In Cleveland, increases in both categories were well above the national average.

 

In some more affordable metro areas — including Kansas City, Cleveland and Cincinnati — urban home values accelerated faster than suburban ones, according to Zillow.

 

The report found that in Cleveland, home value growth in urban areas last year was 16.5%, while it was 10.1% in suburban areas.

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/us-homebuyers-want-live-cities-just-much-suburbs

3 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

This house is across the street from us and I watched the guy put his heart and soul into rehabbing it the last 2 years - and I'm happy to see him finally get to list it. Nonetheless, I think he short changed himself a bit on the price. It's crazy - it was listed on Wednesday and there's been at least two dozen people checking out the house since. 

 

Probably something more for the housing thread. But given the extremely limited housing inventory in the metro area and especially in the core city/inner-ring suburbs, this is common. One of my residential realtor sources has some amazing stories to tell.... sale prices getting bid up by tens of thousands of dollars, houses getting sold in hours not days/weeks/months, 10-20 people putting offers on a house the moment in comes on the market. Crazy!

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Probably something more for the housing thread. But given the extremely limited housing inventory in the metro area and especially in the core city/inner-ring suburbs, this is common. One of my residential realtor sources has some amazing stories to tell.... sale prices getting bid up by tens of thousands of dollars, houses getting sold in hours not days/weeks/months, 10-20 people putting offers on a house the moment in comes on the market. Crazy!

 

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1448-W-50th-St_Cleveland_OH_44102_M39914-45548

Does Cleveland code still allow front yard chain link fences (like shown above in this new construction)?  I thought all of this ugly front yard chain link you find in Ohio City is because it is grandfathered in but at some point the city came to its senses and banned it.

8 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1448-W-50th-St_Cleveland_OH_44102_M39914-45548

That's not a bad price for the house. I wonder if the updates are merely cosmetic though?

31 minutes ago, freefourur said:

That's not a bad price for the house. I wonder if the updates are merely cosmetic though?

 

No he gutted it. New driveway, new walls, new counters, new floors, added a livable basement section. 

 

He did it all on his own, pretty much after work 5-6 days a week. Gotta hand it to him. (though I hate the kitchen floors) lol 

15 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

No he gutted it. New driveway, new walls, new counters, new floors, added a livable basement section. 

 

He did it all on his own, pretty much after work 5-6 days a week. Gotta hand it to him. (though I hate the kitchen floors) lol 

I agree.  Unless you know your buyer, you do not want to choose a floor that stylized.  Also, the photos make the house seem very dark and drab.  He might benefit from having a photographer come in and take photos because some of these realtors don't know how to present a house well.  Overall, impressive for 1 guy.