Thanks as always to @Geowizical for his awesome massings like these!

 

 

SATURDAY, OCTOBER 31, 2020

Chicago developer considers downtown Cleveland tower

 

Here comes another proposal for a Cleveland tower -- but with a word of caution. It's still progressing and considered not close to being realized. But the players involved are serious ones, including another big Chicago developer that wants to invest in Cleveland.

 

That Chicago developer is Magellan Development Group LLC. This developer builds skyscrapers. Lots of them. And not just in Chicago -- the birthplace of the skyscraper. They've built them in Nashville, Miami, Austin and Minneapolis.

 

But Magellan plops 30- to 50-story towers around Chicago without blinking an eye. Their latest is Vista Tower, the third-tallest in the Windy City. The 101-story, 1,198-foot-tall, $1 billion tower opened earlier this year.  

 

The Cleveland site they've picked is a direct result of Sherwin-Williams agreeing to build their new global headquarters in downtown Cleveland. Three sources who agreed to speak off the record confirm Magellan is looking at building on the northwest corner of West 3rd Street and St. Clair Avenue. That's right across St. Clair from Sherwin-Williams' HQ site.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/10/chicago-developer-considers-downtown.html

Edited October 31, 20204 yr by KJP

Awesome but not going to get my hopes up at this time. There’s to many other projects we’re waiting on to break ground. 

I can't say I like the idea of tearing down the Marion building, which Weston had said fairly recently was a "good building," not to mention it's eligible for historic tax credits. 

Awesome. Magellen is a very serious player. Vista has turned out to be absolutely stunning. Also liking the prospect of a 5 star hotel. Perhaps we will get that Wanda brand hotel that turned out to be so elusive for Chicago in the original Vista plans (I joke, I joke). 

Don't like losing two more of our old warehouse buildings but if this development comes to fruition what we gain will outweigh the loss. More concerning is the last bit about the new jail and courthouse location. I'm fine with moving the jail but I want to keep a new courthouse downtown. The problem is both  make to much logistical sense together rather than separated. And if the jail is built outside of downtown then the courthouse has to follow. That sucks. Maybe they can be built somewhere north and east of CSU but still relatively close to downtown. I'm sure kjp has his eye on the prize and will let us all know before the PD will. 

This NEO-Trans was more of a scud missile combined with a bomb - really surprised me, especially on Halloween evening!  I think a lot of us, though properly excited, have a degree of  Wolstein  -Superblock post- traumatic cynicism- not to be in any way negative, lol.  But this article does highlight some Interesting points and questions.  One, just to clarify - the steering committee isn’t moving in the direction of a courthouse tower outside of downtown - just the jail facility, correct @KJP?  The need for a 5 star hotel downtown for SW is a key point and suggests a sooner- not-later development in that regard.  I would think they would want such a hotel available essentially as the new world HQ is opening its doors - not additional years down the road.  Another question - could this project be in play for Benesch or Cleveland Cliffs?  This would be a trophy building in “the” neighborhood with Key, SW, et al. And just my opinion - to use a baseball analogy - I make the trade in a heartbeat - I give up Marion and Bertsch  for this prospect - cuz he will be a future superstar and we’re building for a great future. Thanks for a tricky treat @KJP!  

Edited October 31, 20204 yr by CleveFan

@cadmen and @CleveFan the courthouse probably stays downtown. The jail will likely move out of downtown.

Another GREAT ARTICLE Ken!

 

My question is can the developers get permission to demolish both the Marion and Bertsch buildings, considering they are both part of the Historic Warehouse District?
 

Absolutely thrilled at the potential for yet another tower rising on our city skyline.

 

However ... 🤔

 

I won't hold my breath! We still haven't seen one single shovel of dirt for the nuCLEus project.

🙄

 

Still, the prospect of this tower from a well regarded Chicago developer does perhaps offer a bit more optimism.

Add these two towers, the SHW HQ buildings, and a couple other towers being considered, and the Westside of Public Square will have a pretty substantial skyline in the near future. If all of it pans out of course.

8 hours ago, Larry1962 said:

Another GREAT ARTICLE Ken!

 

My question is can the developers get permission to demolish both the Marion and Bertsch buildings, considering they are both part of the Historic Warehouse District?
 

 

Thanks. That's going to be a toughie. Realty Dynamics/Wolfe Investments wanted to demolish the parking garage behind the Rockefeller Building for a larger redevelopment of the property but either the Warehouse District board and/or Landmarks Commission staff said it probably wouldn't get approved. And that larger redevelopment was roughly the size of what Magellan-Weston are now proposing. 

Edited November 1, 20204 yr by KJP

So amazing... and maybe they could figure a way to build AROUND them?! I get that they gotta build a bunch of parking and stuff but how awesome would that be to have a gleaming new tower adjacent to two of our lovely warehouse buildings? 

TBH id be ok with knocking those buildings down.  I know i am in the minority here but getting something like this there would be huge

3 minutes ago, G00pie said:

TBH id be ok with knocking those buildings down.  I know i am in the minority here but getting something like this there would be huge

I’m in agreement with you

In regards to the garage behind the Rockefeller, I think it's ridiculous that Landmarks would holdup a huge investment into a portion of downtown that is looking to transition out of an auto-centric use because of a truly subpar building that was originally constructed as a parking garage (correct me if I'm wrong on the original use).

So it was ok to demo the Columbia building and the old Richman's building at Prospect and Huron and build a skywalk for a casino parking garage? I get it, we've demoed so much in this City over the years, that much is way too obvious unfortunately, but there are buildings that are worth the trade, and throwing up the same argument for every single building that comes up for demo and redevelopment erodes the mission of the Landmarks Commission, in my opinion.

I kind of hope they aren't allowed.  Both to save the historic buildings, but also because I don't want our downtown to be comprised entirely of blocks long megaprojects.  Build a tower on the vacant lot.  Build another on the other.  Leave the buildings in the middle.  Trust me, it will be much nicer that way from the ground level.  I'm sure the developer wants to build the biggest, most horizontal parking garage, of course.

Magellan is very big in Chicago and they've done some great projects there. This is really exciting and huge news. However, I'm not thrilled with plans to demolish historic buildings. Too much of this city has been destroyed and we need to preserve what little is left. On this point, I hope the planning committee steps in. There's no reason why those buildings can't be incorporated into the development, even if it means just preserving the facades. 

Or perhaps they can do what Lakewood did with Garfield Middle School and stabilize the facade and work it into a modern building?

I understand the respect and in some cases, reverence  for historic buildings in downtown Cleveland and I’m probably going to have many disagree with this - but If it comes down to an either/or proposition for a new project on the scale of what Magellan would probably be - I don’t lose sleep by losing those two buildings. In a perfect world, they would build on either side of them, but we shall see - right now we’re all in speculation mode. But @X, I wouldn’t be unhappy to see a couple mega projects side by side downtown - not at all unhappy. 

Edited November 1, 20204 yr by CleveFan

<start pipe dream>
 

Maybe they can build on either side of the historic buildings with a skybridge hotel between the two fitting over.

 

</end pipe dream>
 

Whatever happens, I’m just glad we’re having discussions about the relative merits of new development vs historic preservation instead of new surface lots vs historic preservation.

6 hours ago, CleveFan said:

I understand the respect and in some cases, reverence  for historic buildings in downtown Cleveland and I’m probably going to have many disagree with this - but If it comes down to an either/or proposition for a new project on the scale of what Magellan would probably be - I don’t lose sleep by losing those two buildings. In a perfect world, they would build on either side of them, but we shall see - right now we’re all in speculation mode. But @X, I wouldn’t be unhappy to see a couple mega projects side by side downtown - not at all unhappy. 

 

It doesn't need to be a perfect world, just a common sense world.

 

Why in heck do we let a "good building" get torn down in Cleveland when there's so much open space? 

   Let's see if this project goes beyond the hot rumor stage but the "open space" may not be the space Magellan wants.  We'll see. 

Edited November 2, 20204 yr by CleveFan

The Vancouver Historic Exchange Building comes to mind (I think that's what it's called), also a couple skyscrapers in Toronto when I think about building new around historic structures. It can be done. 

At the risk of repeating a "development at any cost" mentality, which can come from a place of desperation, I hope the Cleveland Planning Board and public hold their ground by demanding high standards for historic preservation on this site. At the end of the day, if a developer wants to develop in this part of town badly enough, which is replete with parking lots, they'll figure it out. The Sherwin Williams HQ isn't going anywhere and if they aren't willing to go along with said standards there will be other folks out there willing to do so.

 

Edited November 2, 20204 yr by ASP1984

Now THIS is why cities are (or should be) so eager to land the headquarters of a Fortune 500 company smack dab in the middle of their central business district.  Only that kind of project is big enough by itself to create spinoff demand for a 5-star hotel and/or brand new residential/office high rise towers that otherwise would never exist.  Not saying this project a sure thing, of course, but at least it's a possible thing for CLE's future.  That's more than we could say at anytime in the last 30 or so years.

 

Must...not...speculate...about...what downtown...would look like with the HQ's of...Progressive...Eaton...American Greetings...all concentrated in just a few square miles...

Edited November 2, 20204 yr by Down_with_Ctown

19 hours ago, ArtDecoSquirrel said:

The Vancouver Historic Exchange Building comes to mind (I think that's what it's called), also a couple skyscrapers in Toronto when I think about building new around historic structures. It can be done. 

The new EY tower in Toronto is a great example. They built the new tower within and above the façade of the original tower on the site. I could see this project going in this way (if property pushed by the city), even if the Marion Building façade is kept as the face of a parking garage behind it. Personally I think that would be pretty awesome as a hotel, to have a marriage between historic and modern luxury. Hopefully someone like Magellan can see that too.   

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6495006,-79.3826171,3a,75y,10.51h,126.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDot4oZsuT_wAo5RzDnwyog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I dont know...  I think that looks kinda dumb..  I dont think it looks good at all.

 

@KJPAny idea from your sources on how long this has been in fermenting in the works?    I wonder if this isn't the original St Clair location that Dream Hotels was looking at before ending up in Midtown?  

54 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

@KJPAny idea from your sources on how long this has been in fermenting in the works?    I wonder if this isn't the original St Clair location that Dream Hotels was looking at before ending up in Midtown?  

 

At least 3-6 months. Maybe longer.

 

Not a Dream Hotel. They're not 5 star.

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

@KJPAny idea from your sources on how long this has been in fermenting in the works?    I wonder if this isn't the original St Clair location that Dream Hotels was looking at before ending up in Midtown?  

I could be wrong but i think the Dream Hotel idea was on the northern edge on the Weston Superblock ( On what is now SHW Lot ) 

next to the former Stark Headquaters buiding ( Now Real Life ).

3 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

The new EY tower in Toronto is a great example. They built the new tower within and above the façade of the original tower on the site. I could see this project going in this way (if property pushed by the city), even if the Marion Building façade is kept as the face of a parking garage behind it. Personally I think that would be pretty awesome as a hotel, to have a marriage between historic and modern luxury. Hopefully someone like Magellan can see that too.   

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6495006,-79.3826171,3a,75y,10.51h,126.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDot4oZsuT_wAo5RzDnwyog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

That's actually the exact skyscraper I had in mind, but I couldn't figure out the name. Swore it was in Toronto, but got it wrong & figured it could feasibly be Vancouver. Great find

When is the John Boyd article going to post about this being built in Atlanta?

That building is going to have very ugly views of the courthouse. They need to tear that building down and rebuild it. Not the kind of views I would expect from a 5-star hotel room. 

 

Edited November 3, 20204 yr by jbee1982

Most of those I've spoken with who are involved in the Justice Center assessment/planning expect the county jail will be demolished however the courthouse tower could remain. But not everyone that I've spoken with agrees about the courthouse tower.

 

But that's starting to get into the Justice Center thread.

Edited November 3, 20204 yr by KJP

Why don't they build further west of the SW lot? There are plenty of empty lots that should be able to be filled in the warehouse district area.

 

9 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

Why don't they build further west of the SW lot? There are plenty of empty lots that should be able to be filled in the warehouse district area.

 

My guess is because this is the lot Weston owns and they are a partner in the project

19 minutes ago, jbee1982 said:

Why don't they build further west of the SW lot? There are plenty of empty lots that should be able to be filled in the warehouse district area.

 

 

If you mean the Stark-owned lots at West 9th and St Clair, I have only two possible answers....

 

+ Stark has something in mind there.

+ Weston is easier to deal with than Stark.

 

From what I hear, the second answer may be more plausible.

 

EDIT:  I updated the article today with a quote from Tom Yablonsky. This project, if it advances, will probably receive some significant push back because of the proposed demolitions....

 

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/10/chicago-developer-considers-downtown.html

Edited November 3, 20204 yr by KJP

Good. I hope there is massive pushback. The vacant lot at the corner is about an acre in size. That is already a massive space for a garage podium and tower. The lot north of the Marion building is about 2/3 an acre. Also big enough for a garage to support a residential tower. The only reason to tear down the Marion building would be to build a garage large enough for court tower employees.

yes there is no reason it cannot be two buildings. in fact that would be better for everyone. the schwanky hotel could keep the residential and the garage away from it and the city keeps its old fabric buildings. if its going to be that nice of a hotel they can bring your car, if you even have one. i don't see a lot of sw business guests having one.

i wonder how this affects the sw campus design though?

 

i had assumed the hotel they want would be there across the street somewhere and connected to the offices?

 

hopefully there is enough development to go around to fill up all these eyesore warehouse lots!

After five months, it's nice to see the mainstream media finally catch up to this big story today...

 

October 31, 2020:
https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/10/chicago-developer-considers-downtown.html

 

March 28, 2021:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/scott-wolstein-chicago-developer-eye-warehouse-district-high-rise-project

BTW, even though the principals in this project sounded less-than-certain publicly about this project, the fact that they're now willing to go on the record about it is a VERY good sign. They would not talk about it publicly unless they were pretty confident in being able to deliver it.

5 hours ago, KJP said:

BTW, even though the principals in this project sounded less-than-certain publicly about this project, the fact that they're now willing to go on the record about it is a VERY good sign. They would not talk about it publicly unless they were pretty confident in being able to deliver it.

 

This is great and more completely answers my question from earlier in the week (in a different thread) about this project.

Interesting that the hotel operator pulled out. Probably a better chance of one going on the edge of the SW lots now though. I have a feeling this will be mostly apartments (not a bad thing) but they say they are looking to build office space in the project too. Seems like a good potential fit for one of those law firms looking for new space. Especially if the JC stays nearby.

Redirect from SHW HQ thread

 

1 minute ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Did anyone notice the one guy say something along the lines of “and the proposed Magellan development directly to the North”? @KJP

 

It is very much an active project. Look for it to be one of the applicants for a TMUD credit either this year or next.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Redirect from SHW HQ thread

 

 

It is very much an active project. Look for it to be one of the applicants for a TMUD credit either this year or next.

Hopefully it’s not contingent on tearing down the Marion building. And the smaller bail bond building next to it. I don’t know it’s history, but it’s a beautiful old structure.

^ Originally built as an Hungarian restaurant IIRC