Pretty sure St Malachi’s (their neighbor) gets plenty of government funding. And across the street is Irish town bend, also publicly funded. 

I apologize. I didn't mean to imply Bridgeworks' literal neighbors. I was making a more broad point about special interests and potential for abuse.

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32 minutes ago, Milkshake1 said:

I apologize. I didn't mean to imply Bridgeworks' literal neighbors. I was making a more broad point about special interests and potential for abuse.

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I mean, the fact that St. Malachi's desire to remain the most visible from the street came at the expense of Bridgeworks' original development plan is, in and of itself, a public subsidy. We're telling private developers to forgo viable rent-producing square footage because neighboring churches - who don't pay taxes - want to retain visual prominence (I thought Christians had a thing against vanity?). Its annoying and frankly unsurprising that more public support is likely needed in an environment of rising interest rates and construction costs.

 

Edited September 8, 20231 yr by ASP1984

 
I mean, the fact that St. Malachi's desire to remain the most visible from the street came at the expense of Bridgeworks' original development plan is, in and of itself, a public subsidy. We're telling private developers to forgo viable rent-producing square footage because neighboring churches - who don't pay taxes - want to retain visual prominence (I thought Christians had a thing against vanity?). Its annoying and frankly unsurprising that more public support is likely needed in an environment of rising interest rates and construction costs.
 

[emoji817]. St. Malachi should not have a say in the scale of the Bridgeworks project. Perhaps if they didn't, and Bridgeworks could build much larger, there would be no need for public subsidies at all, and we would be under construction.

This is sort of what I was getting at. One public subsidy (Malachi's) breeds another public subsidy (Bridgeworks), and the result is a much smaller project than may have otherwise been built.

The original design would have been so cool to see.


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3 minutes ago, Milkshake1 said:

. St. Malachi should not have a say in the scale of the Bridgeworks project. Perhaps if they didn't, and Bridgeworks could build much larger, there would be no need for public subsidies at all, and we would be under construction.

This is sort of what I was getting at. One public subsidy (Malachi's) breeds another public subsidy (Bridgeworks), and the result is a much smaller project than may have otherwise been built.

The original design would have been so cool to see.


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If I recall correctly there were at least two votes and perhaps three against the project at Landmarks Commission due to the height of both designs.

I'm currently working on a new build, $12 million dollar project, and most loan to value is now 55-65%, plus many banks are NOT lending right now. It's very tough to do any of these deals, especially with interest rates the way they are without any public subsidies 

To make a general statement about similar projects from the perspective of someone who works in the commercial/affordable lending space, there are several things happening behind the scenes on deals like this that draws out the process. Like others have said, although things are quiet that does not mean the deal is dead.

 

For instance, construction financing is pretty difficult/expensive right now and getting that and the permanent debt pieces financed can be a drawn out process. On top of that, the complexity of the capital stack with various sources of subordinate debt, coupled with the parameters around affordability restrictions, adds to the overall timeline and affects various aspects of the deal (financing, legal, underwriting, agency requirements, etc.). Deals like this are complex, would urge a little more patience.

Edited September 15, 20231 yr by andrew0816

https://assets.courbanize.com/bridgeworks/info-plans/de3dc8233b9d5614c75fc8c1208e05ee.pdf

 

Sigh

Oh my god this is horrible. Typical Geis crab. Looks like Panzica has thrown in the towel. I hope landmarks tears this apart.  I hope the county cancels it’s $2 million loan forth with.

Geis pumps out the ugliest buildings imaginable. Again and again. This thing needs to die.

I'm conflicted. I do agree it looks not great, however we NEED something built here... like, is someone else gonna pick up this site if Geis dumps it? That whole corner is an eyesore and will look even worse once Irishtown Bend is done if nothing gets build here...

 

Edit: I'm asking if the site is likely to get picked up by another developer soon, because I want someone more qualified than Geis to do so lol

Edited September 29, 20231 yr by Geowizical

Christ on a bike

Landmarks can choke on this. They're partly to blame for this project being in this position with all their BS on height, aesthetics, delays, etc. What a mess.

2 minutes ago, w28th said:

Landmarks can choke on this. They're partly to blame for this project being in this position with all their BS on height, aesthetics, delays, etc. What a mess.

Yup

This project continues to get worse every time they redesign it. Like I said this project needs to die and let someone else take a crack at it. This is horrendous in all aspects. I wouldn't have a problem with the size if we weren't shown a tower to begin. If they can't deliver that then keep it. We went from a 15-18 story tower to a 4-5 story abomination.

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For what it's worth the detailing is nicer than anything Geis has done to date. Only part that looks really weird is the top floor. And I like the site plan better than the tower. *ducks* 

 

Watch this garbage get rubber stamped.

40 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

This project continues to get worse every time they redesign it. Like I said this project needs to die and let someone else take a crack at it. This is horrendous in all aspects. I wouldn't have a problem with the size if we weren't shown a tower to begin. If they can't deliver that then keep it. We went from a 15-18 story tower to a 4-5 story abomination.

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It was never 18. Max was 16. Big projects simply cannot get construction financing right now. Anywhere. Big banks aren't lending at all. Small banks and equity partners are lending less and less. Absent new liquidity, it's going to get worse before it gets better. The situation is literally changing from week to week. If you can't value-engineer your projects under an accountant's red line or break them up into bite-size pieces (see downtown Lakewood), you're not putting shovels in the ground. 

 

1 hour ago, Geowizical said:

I'm conflicted. I do agree it looks not great, however we NEED something built here... like, is someone else gonna pick up this site if Geis dumps it? That whole corner is an eyesore and will look even worse once Irishtown Bend is done if nothing gets build here...

 

Edit: I'm asking if the site is likely to get picked up by another developer soon, because I want someone more qualified than Geis to do so lol

M Panzica is the developer for this project. Geis is the design-builder. 

8 minutes ago, Mov2Ohio said:

M Panzica is the developer for this project. Geis is the design-builder. 

M. Panzica and GRAMMAR

22 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

It was never 18. Max was 16. Big projects simply cannot get construction financing right now. Anywhere. Big banks aren't lending at all. Small banks and equity partners are lending less and less. Absent new liquidity, it's going to get worse before it gets better. The situation is literally changing from week to week. If you can't value-engineer your projects under an accountant's red line or break them up into bite-size pieces (see downtown Lakewood), you're not putting shovels in the ground. 

 

So I guess this means the just announced Vibrator project is not going to happen in the near future if ever.  Why announce it they don't have the $$$

Wow, wasn’t expecting to see renderings of the new jail today…

 
It was never 18. Max was 16. Big projects simply cannot get construction financing right now. Anywhere. Big banks aren't lending at all. Small banks and equity partners are lending less and less. Absent new liquidity, it's going to get worse before it gets better. The situation is literally changing from week to week. If you can't value-engineer your projects under an accountant's red line or break them up into bite-size pieces (see downtown Lakewood), you're not putting shovels in the ground. 
 

I said 15-18 because I knew it was in that range.

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I don't hate it... I read the above comments before clicking into the PDF, and I was expecting much worse. 

3 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I don't hate it... I read the above comments before clicking into the PDF, and I was expecting much worse. 

 

Yeah it's not bad! Just remember most of us will hate anything... 

^^I'm not that mad at it either🤷‍♂️

I think this project is a case of expectations. It has gone on for so long, with so many different iterations, that many people have forgotten what the various plans have actually included. The city, county, and neighborhood leaders certainly want to see this corner developed in tandem with the park — there has obviously been so much advocacy for it from local leaders. Having said that, I *don’t hate* this plan. I wish it had a little more height and that the architecture had a little more character, but overall, the site plan is very good and it has a lot of bulk to actually fill that whole property. They’re not calling for a surface lot, everything is built up!
I would hope that the review board calls for a fix of the mansard-style roof, ensures community access, and quality material selection; but I would not be upset to see this project added to the neighborhood. 

Edited September 30, 20231 yr by ELaunder
Grammatical correction

56 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

So I guess this means the just announced Vibrator project is not going to happen in the near future if ever.  Why announce it they don't have the $$$

 

They can probably build it one building at a time. And TurnDev seems to be pretty liquid. Two of their backers are among the wealthiest people in Greater Cleveland -- Ron Leonhardt and Rob Risman.

Oh Hell no! This project needs to die. 

I'm not a designer, but that teal color to me is really drab and I think not helping. It's not a very exciting design but I think a different color would give it a little more polish.

3 hours ago, noname said:

https://assets.courbanize.com/bridgeworks/info-plans/de3dc8233b9d5614c75fc8c1208e05ee.pdf

 

Sigh

 

Good god, that's so ugly they should put a stop on their permits for all their projects.

Teal and dark gray brick can work well. It's reminiscent of Quarter 2 nearby. The design is growing on me. That top floor still needs work though. 

 

If this was 15 blocks west on Detroit it would be fine. This intersection needs something at least as substantial and aesthetically pleasing and interesting as Intro. Building this current iteration just for the sake of building it is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I’m usually the last person to comment on a project’s aesthetics, but this is so bad.  It’s reminiscent of a 1980’s Comfort Inn.

Teal and dark gray brick can work well. It's reminiscent of Quarter 2 nearby. The design is growing on me. That top floor still needs work though. 
 

Also a very common color across the neighborhood of always thought of it as the unofficial color of the neighborhood even the church behind the quarter 2 is that color

This is reminiscent of "The Decline and Fall of NuCLEus."

6 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

This is reminiscent of "The Decline and Fall of NuCLEus."

 

I think you may feel differently after you read my article.

We saw Geis get brought in to design-build the Stokes West project and it started almost immediately after the cheaper design was approved, so there's that.

2 hours ago, Mendo said:

Teal and dark gray brick can work well. It's reminiscent of Quarter 2 nearby. The design is growing on me. That top floor still needs work though. 

 

Yeah, fair point. It’s just a personal preference thing. I like the dark brick with teal, but the light gray and light teal to me just kind of look washed out and drab. The darker brick in this example really makes the whole thing pop for me. 

This is an above average 5-over-1 design in my opinion. Obviously a downgrade from previous visions. But idk, I think it's a fine design.

1 hour ago, Mendo said:

We saw Geis get brought in to design-build the Stokes West project and it started almost immediately after the cheaper design was approved, so there's that.

I was thinking the same thing except you are casting it in a positive light while I see it as a negative.  "We can't afford to build our really nice design so let's bring in that value engineering company with their off the self designs to make it work."  Like suggested above-too prominent a corner for this army barrack.

And as bad as the exterior is, I can only imagine what the inside is going to look like with those long (and I imagining dark) hallways and builder grade carpeting and wall sconces.  

5 hours ago, ASPhotoman said:

Wow, wasn’t expecting to see renderings of the new jail today…

That's the closest description of it - actually looks institutional - could be a senior living center.  Ugly as sin. 

5 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said:

This is an above average 5-over-1 design in my opinion. Obviously a downgrade from previous visions. But idk, I think it's a fine design.

It actually seems to have more street presence than the other designs. It doesn't appear to be set back. 

 

Bridgeworks grows by shrinking
By Ken Prendergast / September 30, 2023

 

In Cleveland’s Ohio City neighborhood, and in the face of financial headwinds affecting projects nationwide, the long-planned Bridgeworks development underwent a major redesign that would cut costs and add more space by filling land, not the sky. Gone is a 16-story building and separate parking garage, replaced by a single, seven-story building that incorporates parking within a structure that fills out more of the 2.13-acre site at the west end of the Detroit-Superior Bridge. The revised plans will be reviewed by the city’s design-review boards in the coming weeks. Financing from the city, Cuyahoga County and Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority was arranged last spring.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/09/30/bridgeworks-grows-by-shrinking/

I think this project is a case of expectations. It has gone on for so long, with so many different iterations, that many people have forgotten what the various plans have actually included. The city, county, and neighborhood leaders certainly want to see this corner developed in tandem with the park — there has obviously been so much advocacy for it from local leaders. Having said that, I *don’t hate* this plan. I wish it had a little more height and that the architecture had a little more character, but overall, the site plan is very good and it has a lot of bulk to actually fill that whole property. They’re not calling for a surface lot, everything is built up!
I would hope that the review board calls for a fix of the mansard-style roof, ensures community access, and quality material selection; but I would not be upset to see this project added to the neighborhood. 

This is exactly it. If we saw this scale of project introduced first then we'd be fine with it because it matches the other surrounding buildings.

But to go from THREE separate mid/high rise designs to this, hurts.

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^^Thanks for the article @KJP.  I was hoping you would offer some  information on the changes and status of the project.  Looks like you stayed up late to get this to us.

 

The reasons for the revisions are not surprising to us who follow development closely.  While I believe this intersection would be served better by a taller building, I really don't have a problem with the height slashing.  It is just that I believe this seven story building could have been done so much better.  A number of firms in town would have never presented this "Geis Special".  I know the reason for retaining them, but won't it have been great if a firm like Horton and Harper could have shown what it could do at this corner.

 

It will be interesting to see the reactions by design review and Landmarks.  One thing right up front is that this new design, although it is shorter, actually intrudes on St.  Malachi Church more so than the taller approved version.  

Edited September 30, 20231 yr by Htsguy

I personally preferred the very first design.  I thought that the later flirtation with 15-16 stories was to satisfy TMUD requirements, and that choice did not work out as hoped.  I agree with those who question the 7th floor design, presumably the arched windows, which are not bad per se, but IMO clash with the rest of the building.  Ironically, it appears that the setback from W 25th, which was put in to prevent bockage of the view of St. Malachi, and killed the original design, is gone.

 

Edited September 30, 20231 yr by urb-a-saurus

I think my problem with the design is how the top floor with the teal cladding and the arched windows is trying to hard to be a modern take on a design you'd see in Paris with a copper roof. IMO it just doesn't work, especially for the area. I wish they would just take the grey exterior all the way to the top. It's also way too uniform throughout the entire design. There are no elements that create any sort of uniqueness, and because of that the design (especially because of how long it is) just looks too monotonous. 

 

IMO if they are able to better imitate a copper mansard roof, I'd be on board.

38 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

^^Thanks for the article @KJP.  I was hoping you would offer some  information on the changes and status of the project.  Looks like you stayed up late to get this to us.

 

 

I pretty much wrote the lede in my head while attending my son's out-of-town soccer game yesterday evening. My wife wasn't happy that I was spending more time on my phone during the game and starting to write the article at dinner afterwards. I finished after driving back to Cleveland and proofread it this morning.

 

EDIT: and I just updated it with new information.