52 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

At Ohio City design review, the presenter- really as an afterthought when responding to a question instead of addressing it upfront in his presentation- indicated the very poor designed top was meant to mimic the Detroit-Superior (excuse me Veterans Memorial) Bridge with the arches.  When he stated this it was the first time it occurred to me that is what they were trying to accomplish with the top floor windows.  @dave2017 attempt is so much better, especially the spacing of the windows and the increased number.

The problem is that 99.9% of people are not going to think "Wow, those arches sure remind me of the Veteran Memorial bridge!" The idea is crazy and they need to start over again from scratch because the design sucks. 

13 minutes ago, JohnSummit said:

@dave2017they should hire you.  This is a vast improvement!

I wonder if anyone from the development team lurks on UrbanOhio… you never know.

2 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

I wonder if anyone from the development team lurks on UrbanOhio… you never know.

 

Yes. Most developers do.

At Landmarks today, project was reviewed conceptually.  Strangely only three members offered input.  All three were on the negative side for the most part with Bob Strickland saying he would never vote in favor of the current design.  As expected, the seventh floor was panned  along with the monolith nature of the building, which has been a consistent criticism. 

 

Interestingly, the most "positive" voice of the three was Michelle Anderson, which in my mind says a lot because she basically has no taste whatsoever.  Obviously, the reason she was a somewhat positive voice is because she finally got her way and the building was chopped down.  Recall she voted against the other two proposals because they were too tall and she clearly, at least in her mind, feels vindicated, so the developers should rest assured they will have at least one yes vote when the time comes for that reason alone, even if they paint the building hot pink and get rid of all the windows.

Edited October 12, 20231 yr by Htsguy

6 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

I wonder if anyone from the development team lurks on UrbanOhio… you never know.

 

Like @KJP said, they definitely do. 

 

I can say that I know a lot of UOers are thought of as backseat driving NIMBYs who have no concept of the processes, financing, etc associated with development (which is sometimes true). 

44 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

Like @KJP said, they definitely do. 

 

I can say that I know a lot of UOers are thought of as backseat driving NIMBYs who have no concept of the processes, financing, etc associated with development (which is sometimes true). 

I know for a fact that developers and financiers lurk and post here.

1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

At Landmarks today, project was reviewed conceptually.  Strangely only three members offered input.  All three were on the negative side for the most part with Bob Strickland saying he would never vote in favor of the current design.  As expected, the seventh floor was panned  along with the monolith nature of the building, which has been a consistent criticism. 

 

Interestingly, the most "positive" voice of the three was Michelle Anderson, which in my mind says a lot because she basically has no taste whatsoever.  Obviously, the reason she was a somewhat positive voice is because she finally got her way and the building was chopped down.  Recall she voted against the other two proposals because they were too tall and she clearly, at least in her mind, feels vindicated, so the developers should rest assured they will have at least one yes vote when the time comes for that reason alone, even if they paint the building hot pink and get rid of all the windows.

 

I've been thinking about the height issue. As far as massing, to me it makes sense for a taller building. Why? The building bookends the Irishtown Bend park. What an amazing site would it be to look up from the park at a more substantial building rising from behind the bridge. The other reason is that the building is a gateway for the Flats, Hingetown AND downtown. The building needs to make a statement BECAUSE of its location. To not do so would be a wasted opportunity. 

I don't understand what Landmarks is looking for.  Landmark's job is to ensure that projects are compatible with the scale, massing, and materials of the historic district.  I'm not saying I love the new design, but I have to admit, the new design does fit the context of the historic district.  Just 3 blocks away is a good comparison.  The new Bridgeworks design looks a lot like one of these buildings and it's not the one Landmarks approved.

^ you are right and it would be ok, even blando and institutional as it is.

 

of course anything fresh to bring more people in is a huge goal.

 

however, i can't help but think that if the developers don't have the money and/or vision do something more iconic with a prime and quirky site like that they really should build their underwhelming apt bldg somewhere else nearby. the site demands more and lowrise can be done so much better and less institutional looking than that for similar money.

 

at the very least, where is even a blank roofdeck resident amenity space, much less a roof restaurant for the public? or, as this is not a site for uniformity, where is a little more offset in the facade and like say maybe the height on one end?  i mean variation is an attractive selling point, so why not throw a couple larger, dare i say penthouse type apts on top.

 

who do they think their residents will be? this is perhaps the hipstery hippest part of town, or definitely one of them, and attracts young people and they demand that kind of stuff.

 

since it didn't pass muster, more examples? i image searched under generic, cheap, good looking apt buildings -- 

 

east dallas

 

 

st louis

 

lic queens

 

denver

 

 

sunnyside queens

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 20231 yr by mrnyc

Yeah, if there’s a building location in the city that needs floor to ceiling windows, and balconies, and a rooftop full of amenities, this is it. The current iteration is such a massive failure. I wish we had even one developer in this city with an imagination. 

If it makes people feel better, Geis also unleashes its schlock architect on other cities as well, including those in the sunbelt.  A few days ago an apartment project they just completed popped up on my Instagram feed.  Horrible would be putting it lightly.  I am no architect but it looks like they just have this standard interior floor plan and they then paste on a different exterior no matter what the unique characteristics of a site might require.  Like they keep emphasizing, this business model is economical.  At least we are lucky that the Bridgework site prohibits the sea of surface parking that surrounds this Ft. Myers building.  

Edited October 13, 20231 yr by Htsguy

4 hours ago, mrnyc said:

 

 

east dallas

 

 

st louis

 

lic queens

 

denver

 

 

sunnyside queens

 

Yes, please! Any of these are acceptable-  Or How about one of @dave2017’s designs?  We’re not unreasonable here at UO - we understand you can’t afford 14 or 16 floors - but  Geis! -  give us something you’d actually WANT  to live in! 

Edited October 13, 20231 yr by CleveFan

I really don’t understand the venom this building is getting. I lived in DC for 11 years and pretty much every apartment building I lived in was a giant brick box not dissimilar to this. I lived in desirable neighborhoods in the city proper. and I not once decided what building to live in based on how beautiful the exterior was. I used to joke that one building I lived in was pretty ugly but my windows looked out on mansions and embassies, so it didn’t matter to me. 
 

Maybe people are different here but as a renter I always prioritized a few key things: Where is it located? What’s the rent? How well is the building maintained? 

 

10 minutes ago, coneflower said:

I really don’t understand the venom this building is getting. I lived in DC for 11 years and pretty much every apartment building I lived in was a giant brick box not dissimilar to this. I lived in desirable neighborhoods in the city proper. and I not once decided what building to live in based on how beautiful the exterior was. I used to joke that one building I lived in was pretty ugly but my windows looked out on mansions and embassies, so it didn’t matter to me. 
 

Maybe people are different here but as a renter I always prioritized a few key things: Where is it located? What’s the rent? How well is the building maintained? 

 

I don’t think it’s comparable. D.C., with the amount of slush money and growth, things are built everywhere to keep up with the demand. Here, things are more measured. And until we have a rapid influx of new residents, that’s how it’ll be.

 

Though I also don’t think we’re at the point of building C+ buildings that get AAAA rents. But I could be wrong. Either way, this location deserves something better than this trash Geis thing. 

The buildings I’m talking about in DC were built in the late 1930s. 
 

I only bring up DC in this context because I don’t think every building needs to be some work of art because every city in America has unremarkable apartments in good neighborhoods. If there is demand, as it appears there is, build housing for people. I don’t understand the idea of saying “no, this spot is to precious and we must wait for the right developer and economic conditions that are exactly right to do something beautiful.” That makes no sense to me when the issue Cleveland has is it needs to repopulate. 

Edited October 13, 20231 yr by coneflower

We could have an influx of new residents if we had the inventory of modern housing to accommodate them. Right now, it seems the varied opinions of "what is art" is the biggest thing holding back this expansion of supply.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

We could have an influx of new residents if we had the inventory of modern housing to accommodate them. Right now, it seems the varied opinions of "what is art" is the biggest thing holding back this expansion of supply.

This is disingenuous. Maybe if bridgeworks had all their financing in place the three or four times they've had to scale back they would already have shovels in the ground.

Edited October 13, 20231 yr by Ineffable_Matt

2 hours ago, KJP said:

We could have an influx of new residents if we had the inventory of modern housing to accommodate them. Right now, it seems the varied opinions of "what is art" is the biggest thing holding back this expansion of supply.

You have been arguing for weeks now that financing and the current economy are the biggest thing holding back expansion of supply.  Strange thing to say all of a sudden to make a point.  I can recall numerous projects that have won city approval-some with neighborhood disapproval-over the past 4-5 years, or that were proposed and never even made it to the approval stage, that are dead or are crickets, and opinions about "what is art" clearly were not the issue.

50 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

You have been arguing for weeks now that financing and the current economy are the biggest thing holding back expansion of supply.  Strange thing to say all of a sudden to make a point.  I can recall numerous projects that have won city approval-some with neighborhood disapproval-over the past 4-5 years, or that were proposed and never even made it to the approval stage, that are dead or are crickets, and opinions about "what is art" clearly were not the issue.

I'm assuming that by "this" expansion of supply, what @KJP is talking about is this specific project, not projects in general. In other words, we need more housing and this specific project is getting panned because of pickiness about design. Because obviously window-dressing type design concerns are not the main reason most projects are held up.

 

And, yeah, I totally support what @KJP is saying. Cuyahoga County (as of the most recent data) is still losing population. It's just silly to be super picky at this point. It's like the out of shape guy who wants to get fit and spends a bunch of time worrying about what is the best fitness plan rather than just doing SOMETHING. 

5 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

I'm assuming that by "this" expansion of supply, what @KJP is talking about is this specific project, not projects in general. In other words, we need more housing and this specific project is getting panned because of pickiness about design. Because obviously window-dressing type design concerns are not the main reason most projects are held up.

 

And, yeah, I totally support what @KJP is saying. Cuyahoga County (as of the most recent data) is still losing population. It's just silly to be super picky at this point. It's like the out of shape guy who wants to get fit and spends a bunch of time worrying about what is the best fitness plan rather than just doing SOMETHING. 

I have seen design reviews and Landmarks and Planning Commission in action for many years and have moaned and groaned about them being "picky" about stupid design issues.  In this instance people are not being "picky".  This is just a horrible design overall from the outset.  

The interesting argument to be had is that the 3 previous iterations that have been presented to the public had better design aesthetics to this final value engineered version.  The renderings that Geis presented lack the polish that the others had. I will be interested to see what they will present in the future

 

 

8 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

The interesting argument to be had is that the 3 previous iterations that have been presented to the public had better design aesthetics to this final value engineered version.  The renderings that Geis presented lack the polish that the others had. I will be interested to see what they will present in the future

 

 

Let's remember this is the initial design. I don't think Geis or the development team expects this to be approved based on this current design. This is a starting point. 

^I also agree that the quality of the renderings often have a big impact on people's reactions to designs.  I think the new design is ok, but the renderings don't really do it any favors.  It is a subtle design that relies on detailing, which hasn't really been presented yet, and wouldn't really show in renderings anyway.  I think this design is a few revisions away from being close to Quarter 2 or the Lincoln, both of which I think are very nice.  I also think those projects do a good job of feeling very new, while still fitting in with the historic neighborhood.  I think this project is on pace to do the same.

13 hours ago, coneflower said:

I really don’t understand the venom this building is getting. I lived in DC for 11 years and pretty much every apartment building I lived in was a giant brick box not dissimilar to this. I lived in desirable neighborhoods in the city proper. and I not once decided what building to live in based on how beautiful the exterior was. I used to joke that one building I lived in was pretty ugly but my windows looked out on mansions and embassies, so it didn’t matter to me. 
 

Maybe people are different here but as a renter I always prioritized a few key things: Where is it located? What’s the rent? How well is the building maintained? 

 

 

forgive my guess, but you likely lived in dc in a long stable neighborhood, not one currently at a tipping point.

 

regardless, very, very unlike dc, i would say even the most favorable neighborhoods in cleveland are perpetually at tipping point levels.

 

in other words, its more important that cleveland developers get it right on those highly visible development sites than it would be for dc. 

 

getting it mediocre/ok just tends to continue that path.

 

i mean yeah as is it is it is ok and will bring in residents, but the big picture is cle is up against the dc's and other cities for that youthful energy factor.

 

sometimes the city and developers need to step it up ... just a little bit more ... and just here and there ... to keep up the positive momentum and frankly just to keep up with the joneses.

 

its really not that big an ask.

I can't speak for everyone but my reaction to the Geis proposal is twofold.

 

One: l DO think exceptional sites (and we don't have all that many here) deserve a special design. This is not an original thought of mine. Study any great city and you will see exceptional designs at certain locations. Doing that is one way to create beautiful cities. That doesn't mean you never build anything average. That would be impractical and, really unnecessary. But do put up buildings that special sites  warrent.

 

Two: A developer doesn't have to spend a boatload of money on an appealing design. And yes l know different people have their own definition of appealing. Nevertheless, there are so many examples already available of what a general consensus would call appealing. Copy one. The only reason to build a stone cold boring building is simply a lack of interest or awareness. Some developers get

it, some don't. 

 

Finally, there have been some comments recently on this site that indicated that developers visit here and supposedly they feel we don't have a clue about what it takes to get a project off the ground. Fine. I'll leave the financials to them. But that has nothing to do with putting up an attractive building or not. It can but it doesn't HAVE to cost anymore to incorporate better designs. It just takes desire and maybe a little taste.

This is a circular debate because it’s hinging on personal design preferences.  

21 minutes ago, coneflower said:

This is a circular debate because it’s hinging on personal design preferences.  

No, you're wrong. The debate is rectangular.

32 minutes ago, coneflower said:

This is a circular debate because it’s hinging on personal design preferences.  

I think you’re describing a forum

Maybe I'm missing something here, but didn't Cleveland lose population because the jobs went elsewhere? I think Cleveland needs to foster an environment for job-creation. It's a shame that Cleveland couldn't get Intel to build there instead of here in the Cbus area. Cleveland has all the amenities of a big city. It just needs jobs to come back so people will move back. 

1 minute ago, TMart said:

Maybe I'm missing something here, but didn't Cleveland lose population because the jobs went elsewhere? I think Cleveland needs to foster an environment for job-creation. It's a shame that Cleveland couldn't get Intel to build there instead of here in the Cbus area. Cleveland has all the amenities of a big city. It just needs jobs to come back so people will move back. 

I’d say health care is bringing them back and cle didn’t have a chance for intel that’s something dewine would want close to home 

this is just not so. metro cle has tons of decent jobs. what they don’t have is people to fill them. or immigration to fill in gap jobs at least.

 

this is not just a cle issue and should drive home the competitive issues we all face today in a global economy.

 

so what needs to happen is to make cle as attractive a place to live and work as is possible.

 

no i would not put that burden on one developer, of course thats not fair, but all developers and landmarks and the city need to keep that in mind.

 

for example —

 

 

Cleveland manufacturers can’t find employees, so nonprofits step in to boost training and internships

 

BY TOM BRECKENRIDGE ● ECONOMY ● MAY 18, 2023

 

https://thelandcle.org/stories/cleveland-manufacturers-cant-find-employees-so-nonprofits-step-in-to-boost-training-and-internships/

 

 

I guess I'm a dinosaur. I always thought people went where there were good jobs. I am from NEO and love Cleveland. If I could have the same job I have now, but in CLE, there are 2 factors that would prevent me from taking it: 1) crime, and 2) the weather. If it weren't for those factors, I would transfer from Cbus in a heartbeat! If I was looking for an apartment, I wouldn't be picky about the looks of the exterior, but more about the layout, amenities, rent, location, etc. But then again, I'm a dinosaur. I don't know what young professionals are looking for. 

Quote

#16

Bridgeworks Team to Present at Next Community Meeting

Hello everyone! The Bridgeworks team will present their updated proposal at the next Ohio City Monthly Community Meeting on November 14th. The meeting will be held in the basement of the St. Malachi Parish Social Hall (2416 Superior Viaduct, Cleveland Ohio 44113) and begin at 6 p.m., following food and conversation at 5:30 p.m.

We hope to see you there to ask questions and give your feedback!

 

The meeting will also be live-streamed at www.ohiocity.org/community-meetings

 

https://www.bridgeworks-oc.com/updates

 

 

Seems they have made an update to the design and are now presenting it at the community meeting? Curious to see what changes were made.

Edited November 8, 20231 yr by dwolfi01

It's now a two car garage...but a nice one!

On 11/8/2023 at 12:29 PM, dwolfi01 said:

 

https://www.bridgeworks-oc.com/updates

 

 

Seems they have made an update to the design and are now presenting it at the community meeting? Curious to see what changes were made.

I watched the presentation to the Ohio City Community Monthly Meeting on Nov 14.  I was disappointed to find nothing was changed with the design.  

2 hours ago, dave2017 said:

I watched the presentation to the Ohio City Community Monthly Meeting on Nov 14.  I was disappointed to find nothing was changed with the design.  

 

Restating here from the small discussion had in the Random Topics thread:

They did mention in the Ohio City meeting that they already submitted updated plans to Landmarks they were just "waiting in line" due to the backlog to get actually in front of the committee. So the hope is since those plans aren't published yet they just showed the most recent public plans. My guess is the updates will be seen whenever they go in front of Landmarks so don't lose hope!

I already lost hope when it went from what l thought was an iconic design to a generic one. 

 

I'II continue to believe that THIS location warrants a something like what was originally proposed. That would have been fantastic. I get that the business climate has changed. What hasn't changed is the site. Don't waste it on this nothing burger.

This project has been crickets lately.  Assume they are attempting to make major revisions to the design (at least I hope) given the reception it received last fall.  However, things appear to be moving forward to some extent as legislation was presented this morning to Council's Municipal Services and Properties Committee to vacate a small sliver of public property on the Superior Viaduct for the hotel's canopy.  

Really hoping this goes through eventually. I would hate for the nice beautiful Irishtown Bend park to butt up against some abandoned property right on such a prominent corner. Would love any new design of Bridgework to build right up to the sidewalk too on W25th and Detroit there to help add to the density feel as the rest of Detroit ave. there. 

Has anyone heard any news or updates for this project?

 

1 hour ago, dave2017 said:

Has anyone heard any news or updates for this project?

 

Recently watched the November OC meeting with Veysey. He indicated a late Spring start and a Summer 26 completion. So we will see soon.

Building/Demolition permits are posted with fees being paid just last week by Geis. I think the project currently sits at Landmatks. Maybe something happening soon. Not the project I hoped for but lets just get it done and move on to the next one.

 

Project Description:

BRIDGEWORKS
DEMOLITION OF EXISTING BUILDINGS AND SITE PREP WORK FOR NEW MIXED USE DEVELOPMENT HOTEL AND APARTMENT BUILDING WITH PARKING GARAGE, RETAIL SPEC SPACE, AND RESTAURANT.

I remember some talk at some commission meeting opposing any demolition until the developer could show the historic reuse of some of the existing building reuse into the new design that wasn't shown in Geis' value-engineered design

Is the design staying as that same sort-of institutional gray thing?  

21 hours ago, freethink said:

Building/Demolition permits are posted with fees being paid just last week by Geis. I think the project currently sits at Landmatks. Maybe something happening soon. Not the project I hoped for but lets just get it done and move on to the next one.

 

Project Description:

BRIDGEWORKS
DEMOLITION OF EXISTING BUILDINGS AND SITE PREP WORK FOR NEW MIXED USE DEVELOPMENT HOTEL AND APARTMENT BUILDING WITH PARKING GARAGE, RETAIL SPEC SPACE, AND RESTAURANT.

I’m just excited something is happening 

seriously lol. This has been such a long drawn out process unfortunately. I get depressed every day walking by this abandoned lot/buildings lol

 

Cleveland’s new Bridgeworks plan takes next steps
By Ken Prendergast / March 13, 2024

 

Bridgeworks, a mixed-use development proposed in Cleveland’s Hingetown section of Ohio City and that’s gone through several iterations, will be back in front of city design-review panels this month in the hopes of getting construction started this year. If approvals are granted, demolition of existing buildings at the northeast corner of West 25th Street and the Detroit-Superior Bridge could start in the coming months.

 

MORE: 

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/03/13/clevelands-new-bridgeworks-plan-takes-next-steps/

Thanks for the article Ken. I'm sure l'm the only one on this forum who prefers that this iteration was tabled. Such a vanilla project for what l consider a prime Cleveland site. I understand why the previous design is no longer financially possible but once this disappointment is built we're stuck with it. Better to wait for a better economic climate and build something worthy of the location.

For a long time I have been thrilled by this project but I am now over it.  It is either not going to happen or if it does it is basically going to be a wart on the landscape.  Really don't know which of the the two options is worse.

 

Fascinating how the developer is basically thumbing its noise at design review and Landmarks after some pretty serious, and justified criticism.  They must have learned at the the knee of Sherwin Williams when it comes to ignoring constructive advise.

Edited March 13, 20241 yr by Htsguy