46 minutes ago, Henke said:

Caddy corner on Detroit and 25th has had several dining concepts come and go. Ohio City Galley failed in that location before COVID. Following that Sauce the City Galley also tried and failed in that location. 
 

And I hate to be this guy, but although it’s a busy intersection and the lakefront trail empties out right there, it’s a car-centric intersection and doesn’t feel great as a pedestrian. The Shoreway is allegedly a boulevard, but the design of the area still feels like you’re standing next to a highway exit.
 

That means you probably can’t expect a lot of foot traffic to those restaurants without a lot more residential density or (yuck) easy parking options. Unlike Hingetown that corner doesn’t enjoy very much street parking, unless you want to walk around the corner from the flats or try your luck on the viaduct. 

 

And remember, nearby Hingetown, still has several notably vacant storefronts, Let’s French and the might-have-been an oyster bar. Did the brewery find a new tenant yet? I think the grocery on Detroit also closed recently as well. 
 

I think we are getting there with density, but we realistically already have more retail storefronts than that specific corner of the neighborhood can support. It’s disappointing but doesn’t feel very surprising that Bridgeworks wouldn’t place a bet on retail or dining. 

 

 

 

Yeah but they're building a parking garage. I'd venture to say that the retail locations at Church + State are failing because they didn't accommodate enough parking in their garage / design plan. Consider the addition of Irishtown Bend park and the next 30+ years actually look pretty good from a foot traffic perspective. I would also argue that a rooftop restaurant with views of Cleveland speaks for itself - that's a destination anyone in the city could rationalize going out of their way for. This site has ample tools at its disposal - IMHO they should be planning a project for the Cleveland of the next 30 years, not for the Cleveland of right now this very moment.

 

 

Edited July 26, 2024Jul 26 by ASP1984

11 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

Very great points @Henke. I walk this stretch almost daily and it is surprising how many retail efforts come and go so I am not surprised about their comments here regarding retail being difficult. Catty-corner to this I have seen that storefront sit vacant for years. I thought there was a rumor a Cilantro Taqueria was going in but that was earlier this year and haven't heard a peep on it. 

 

The would-be oyster bar still is sitting dormant half finished on the inside (they have some studs up that's it) and it's been that way all year. That "Let's French" spot under Church + State has been empty ever since I've seen it years ago. Seems even W29th has some rotations of the smaller storefronts other than the few mainstays. The brewery attached to Co-Hatch is supposed to be a Royal Docks but I haven't seen any work being done on it but that is certainly a more recent announcement so I'm hopefully we see movement soon. 

 

I will say there have been a few bright spots in the few years I lived over this way. Seeing how successful new places like Lekko Coffee, Amba, Alea, and even those weird huts for City Goods. All have been opened within the last few years and seem to be doing great. I think we just need more density in the immediate area and that will allow for more businesses to thrive. Parking is not plentiful here so I'm sure it dissuades a lot of people further away from coming here for retail on a more regular basis. But with more apartments like Bridgeworks and that one potentially going in on the former Saucy Vibe Garden space, I would expect retailers to follow.

Not Cilantro but Condado is going in the the spot next to the old Galley and walking by you can see plenty of work being done. Also, Royal Docks was just at Landmarks getting their sign approved recently.

 

I agree that at the moment it is very car centric and kind of isolated from the West 25th street foot traffic. But this all changes in my mind when you add Irishtown Bend there in a couple years. There will be massive amounts of foot traffic from that which is why it surprises me they dont have any foresight to that with this project.

2 hours ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Yeah but they're building a parking garage. I'd venture to say that the retail locations at Church + State are failing because they didn't accommodate enough parking in their garage / design plan. Consider the addition of Irishtown Bend park and the next 30+ years actually look pretty good from a foot traffic perspective. I would also argue that a rooftop restaurant with views of Cleveland speaks for itself - that's a destination anyone in the city could rationalize going out of their way for. This site has ample tools at its disposal - IMHO they should be planning a project for the Cleveland of the next 30 years, not for the Cleveland of right now this very moment.

 

 

 

I also forgot to mention that it sits literally on top of what is projected to be the most unique transportation corridor in Ohio - the revamped Detroit Superior Bridge. This development team needs to aim higher.

 

Edited July 26, 2024Jul 26 by ASP1984

3 hours ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Yeah but they're building a parking garage. I'd venture to say that the retail locations at Church + State are failing because they didn't accommodate enough parking in their garage / design plan. Consider the addition of Irishtown Bend park and the next 30+ years actually look pretty good from a foot traffic perspective. I would also argue that a rooftop restaurant with views of Cleveland speaks for itself - that's a destination anyone in the city could rationalize going out of their way for. This site has ample tools at its disposal - IMHO they should be planning a project for the Cleveland of the next 30 years, not for the Cleveland of right now this very moment.

 

 

 

There's no evidence that retail at Church + State is failing. 

 

And while developers would love to plan for the future, projects are financed in the here and now. Hopefully the plan is adaptable for the future, however.

I agree with what @Henke said about the intersection being anti-pedestrian. I would also add that it’s a horrible intersection to drive through - can’t turn left onto Detroit from 25th, poor signage all over, and altogether too many lanes. It’s disagreeable all the way around and needs a rethinking in the worst way. 
 

What will the planned RTA bus routes/street reconfiguration do to this intersection?

35 minutes ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

I agree with what @Henke said about the intersection being anti-pedestrian. I would also add that it’s a horrible intersection to drive through - can’t turn left onto Detroit from 25th, poor signage all over, and altogether too many lanes. It’s disagreeable all the way around and needs a rethinking in the worst way. 
 

What will the planned RTA bus routes/street reconfiguration do to this intersection?

 

The forum isn't letting me upload photos for some reason (mods? 🙏), but you can see an intention for the intersection in the ITB plans from September 2023 Joint Commission Review, page 47/84 of the presentation: https://assets.courbanize.com/irishtown-bend-park/info-plans/425e3bcad19610d0670c9a7bc434ca24.pdf

 

Dedicated BRT lanes and an intent to add in that left turn from 25th onto Detroit are included.

Edited July 26, 2024Jul 26 by Geowizical

Maybe it’s time to start writing [whoever] at the county that’s it’s time to pull back on the land option for these guys. Just pure crap from them consistently at this point. 

11 minutes ago, noname said:

Maybe it’s time to start writing [whoever] at the county that’s it’s time to pull back on the land option for these guys. Just pure crap from them consistently at this point. 

There's no option. The developers own the land.

10 hours ago, dwolfi01 said:

The brewery attached to Co-Hatch is supposed to be a Royal Docks but I haven't seen any work being done on it but that is certainly a more recent announcement so I'm hopefully we see movement soon. 

 

 

Royal Docks just sold a controlling interest to an investment group last month to raise the funds needed to finish expanding into the CoHatch spot by August, as well as potentially two more places in NEO.

 

https://www.cantonrep.com/story/business/2024/06/28/royal-docks-brewing-purchased-by-investment-group/74244971007/

 

They had previously said they plan on this specific brewery being focused on wood-aging, which I hope is still the plan. Wood-aged beers are great, and even in a brewery-saturated area like Ohio City, this is a unique concept that should help them stand out.

Edited July 27, 2024Jul 27 by daybreaker

20 hours ago, KJP said:

 

There's no evidence that retail at Church + State is failing. 

 

And while developers would love to plan for the future, projects are financed in the here and now. Hopefully the plan is adaptable for the future, however.

 

No evidence? There's still 2-3 empty storefronts comprising what appears to be the majority of retail square footage.

 

As far as being financed for the here and now, we are subsidizing the developer with public funds to get something done. That's reason enough to hold them accountable.

 

Edited July 27, 2024Jul 27 by ASP1984

21 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

 

No evidence? There's still 2-3 empty storefronts comprising what appears to be the majority of retail square footage.

 

As far as being financed for the here and now, we are subsidizing the developer with public funds to get something done. That's reason enough to hold them accountable.

 

Nature’s Oasis will be taking over a large chunk of that. You have to build for the future, not the current state. 

21 hours ago, Geowizical said:

Dedicated BRT lanes and an intent to add in that left turn from 25th onto Detroit are included.

 

Never understood why turning left is prohibited. Only thing I could think of is it being an artifact from when the streetcar used to run here....75 years ago.

And the two right turn lanes.... that immediately merge into one on the bridge. 

 

That whole intersection is 75 years out of date. 

On 7/26/2024 at 7:22 PM, freefourur said:

There's no option. The developers own the land.

That’s terrible news. 

On 7/27/2024 at 1:55 PM, marty15 said:

Nature’s Oasis will be taking over a large chunk of that. You have to build for the future, not the current state. 

 

Hasn't that been the case for over two years? I recall talk of a health food store moving in "imminently" when I first toured the apartments there almost three years ago.

 

I mean, there was this Covid thing, followed by inflation pressures and spiking interest rates. 

56 minutes ago, marty15 said:

I mean, there was this Covid thing, followed by inflation pressures and spiking interest rates. 

 

Ha okay so you are referencing a data point that's 4 to 5 years old. Something tells me that Nature's Oasis isn't coming anytime soon. @KJP unless you know something the rest of us don't its kinda disingenuous to gloss this over. The retail strategy there is floundering.

 

27 minutes ago, ASP1984 said:

 

Ha okay so you are referencing a data point that's 4 to 5 years old. Something tells me that Nature's Oasis isn't coming anytime soon. @KJP unless you know something the rest of us don't its kinda disingenuous to gloss this over. The retail strategy there is floundering.

 

This is from last month.  Build out already started and set to open later this year...https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2024/05/natures-oasis-to-open-natural-food-store-in-ohio-city.html

Does anyone know what the latest news is on this project?  Their current website now states a New Project is in the Works

 

https://www.bridgeworks-oc.com/home

4 hours ago, dave2017 said:

Does anyone know what the latest news is on this project?  Their current website now states a New Project is in the Works

 

https://www.bridgeworks-oc.com/home

If I recall correctly this latest iteration has to still be approved by Landmarks.  It has been before Landmarks but I don't believe it was for final approval.  As far as behind the scenes-in other words do they finally have all their ducks in order in terms of financing-who knows-although my guess is they do, or are at least close enough.  All in all it has gone from an Okay high rise with a hotel to simply a mid rise apartment building with a questionable design.  Disappointing in such a prominent location.

7 hours ago, dave2017 said:

Does anyone know what the latest news is on this project?  Their current website now states a New Project is in the Works

 

https://www.bridgeworks-oc.com/home

Last thing I saw was they were tabled at Ohio City Design review a few weeks ago due to the concerns over the South facing side of the buildings design.

12 minutes ago, TDi said:

Last thing I saw was they were tabled at Ohio City Design review a few weeks ago due to the concerns over the South facing side of the buildings design.

Any particular criticisms that you are aware of?

 I found the OHC design review from Sept 5. I find it interesting how the architect says the landmarks commission gave positive feedback

44 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

 I found the OHC design review from Sept 5. I find it interesting how the architect says the landmarks commission gave positive feedback

If I recall correctly, I do believe Landmarks was more positive back in July, but I noted back then that the developer may have gotten off easy because many of the members of the Board who are architects were not present for the meeting for some reason.  Obviously a lot more expertise at the Sept 5 design review and as a result harsher criticism.  I don't thing Brandon was expecting that.

Brandon is not understanding that the overall design is just lackluster. Subtle changes and material choices will not help this design.  This is what happens when you have a value engineered design.  They are just not capable of making an iconic build that this location deserves.  I am probably in the minority but I'd rather see this project abandoned as is. There is no need to settle

Edited September 21, 2024Sep 21 by dave2017

5 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

Brandon is not understanding that the overall design is just lackluster. Subtle changes and material choices will not help this design.  This is what happens when you have a value engineered design.  They are just not capable of making an iconic build that this location deserves.  I am probably in the minority but I'd rather see this project abandoned as is. There is no need to settle

I agree with you 100% but I was always afraid to say this for fear of getting my head bitten off by certain forum members.  You're my hero.😉

1 hour ago, dave2017 said:

Brandon is not understanding that the overall design is just lackluster. Subtle changes and material choices will not help this design.  This is what happens when you have a value engineered design.  They are just not capable of making an iconic build that this location deserves.  I am probably in the minority but I'd rather see this project abandoned as is. There is no need to settle

All the different claddings make it look horrific, and actually increase the cost, and probability of water intrusion. Just do it all brick, add some balconies, call it a day. 

Sorry to say this - because we all have differing opinions -and I’m usually all-in on any new CLE development - but that last graphic that @dave2017 posted just above is just plain awful. 

I don’t understand why this thing keeps changing every two months? Why not make it brick with some basic ornamentation like the old buildings in the Warehouse District? The more they tweak it the worse it gets 

They could easily just copy the look of the Welleon and it would fit the corner and make everyone content. These designs have been somehow getting worse every iteration.

With all the difficulties over these watered down versions maybe we'll end up with my origional hope - that we table everthing until we get a developer with deep pockets and a building worthy of the site.

After all of the iterations I am ready to accept it once they make the edits to the white cladding causing the tabling at the meeting posted above. 

 

I only saw the tall 16 or 17 story verison with the hotel on top as appearing iconic that would have triangulated well with Intro and Church & State providing the needed placemaking for newcomers and visitors.  But the current version does fill a large void with one project and is complimentary to the equally tame and bland new buildings heading west on Detroit.  It also seems to reflect the Western Reserve and modern '90s add-on on West 9th (and even a generic budget-minded nod to Michael Graves but without any of his whimsy). 

 

Admittedly, when you visit the new area coffee shops and businesses the youngins don't mind at all as we do and it is refreshing to see new street life they bring that had long passed us by.  So more please.  Plus there is enough vacant land for iconic landmarks once the economic conditions permit again - and when Irishtownd Bend park opens (when does the last eyesore billboard come down at the corner?).

 

Speaking of needed whimsy above, If they only would engage experts (expertise they need to admit they lack) in activating the corner even with this stripped down model.  For example, I was excited when reading Ken's story on the exciting Kiev design firm - Dion Art - who set up shop in Cleveland after the Russian invasion.  If you look at their website of iconic and placemaking projects one wishes they would swoop in to activate and save the bland Bridgeworks corner plaza and roof (and save Geis from their economical design).  Hopefully others will enage them and help activate our streetscapes (especially the new Irishtown Bend park design).

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/03/24/from-kyiv-to-cleveland-art-firm-hq-moves/

 

https://www.dion.art/

 

Edited September 22, 2024Sep 22 by Willo

The way this keeps stalling due to design you'd think this is some 20-25 story mega project. Other mid rise projects have risen much faster than this.

Watched the meeting. Very good commentary. Especially with the backhanded inn comment. This project looks like flaming pile of crap and whoever designed that should seriously be reconsidering their career choices. The windows don't make any sense in terms of scale, the arches are out of place and for whatever reason watered down to a degree I didn't know was possible. The use of that many various materials and even worse, the "long facade" is just horrid. Even worse, they add the amenity terraces on the wrong side! You have a multimillion-dollar park and river views, and you think residents want to see the side street? This whole project is not iconic, and quite frankly is one of the worst buildings I've ever seen designed. The plan views are fine, but the elevations are absolutely horrible. And that path to the river is just terrible - it really does feel like an afterthought. I saw it and immediately visualized someone getting jumped there. Put some string lights, activate it with a commercial use, and widen it. That would make such a cute quaint dining space or pocket park. Furthermore, get rid of the metal panels altogether and use larger windows. Hardie Board is not appropriate for their project either.

This keeps changing because it has no real design integrity to maintain. At risk of oversimplifying things, it's another project that's the manifestation of a strictly pro-forma driven, lazy architect/builder team combined with a consistently misguided Landmarks Commission on this site.

Edited September 22, 2024Sep 22 by w28th

From OC Review 9/19

 

It's still not *great* and they clearly did the bare minimum to make changes to the facade, but I suppose this version with extended brick and no white on the front-facing facade is something I'm more willing to get behind. The extension of the brick arches along the base and up to the fifth story of the building makes sense and gives some added continuity I suppose.

^ Agreed. It's better. It's still not a beauty or anything to write home about, but this is a significant improvement. 

Wow, this is horrendous.

No matter what exterior changes they try with the comments they receive nothing will truly turn this into a great design aesthetic.  Lipstick on a pig 

More brick is better. The remaining question is which will hurt the eyes more - Bridgeworks or its neighbor Stonebridge if they follow thru with painting the exterior black and gray. I recall from the meeting that one member politely asked if Geis was aware of the planned colors next door.  January and February in Cleveland may be extra dreary along this stretch (except at night when lights from each dwelling will welcome some new life to the area).

Edited September 23, 2024Sep 23 by Willo

12 minutes ago, Willo said:

Stonebridge if they follow thru with painting the exterior black and gray.

 

oh we're going through with it alright against my objections. They are replacing the siding with the new black/grey on Stonebridge not painting it. Still it will look awful imo. Not happy that no one else seemed unhappy at all with the design choice a few members of the HOA committee made. 

The latest iteration seems to be clearly an improvement over previous last three.

 

I know it's not a popular opinion here, but I continue to believe the design is basically fine if not above average and it's being judged more harshly because the first couple iterations were much better.

8 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

The latest iteration seems to be clearly an improvement over previous last three.

 

I know it's not a popular opinion here, but I continue to believe the design is basically fine if not above average and it's being judged more harshly because the first couple iterations were much better.

Above average for a prison or dormitories for a junior college in rural Nebraska 

56 minutes ago, Willo said:

More brick is better. The remaining question is which will hurt the eyes more - Bridgeworks or its neighbor Stonebridge if they follow thru with painting the exterior black and gray. I recall from the meeting that one member politely asked if Geis was aware of the planned colors next door.  January and February in Cleveland may be extra dreary along this stretch (except at night when lights from each dwelling will welcome some new life to the area).

 

I agree. My area is littered with these multi-colored and multi-textured facades and the one constant seems to be that the white parts do not weather well. The rapid discoloration makes the whole building look dingy and blighted in a relatively few years.

Wow. How....disappointing. This wouldn't fly in a city that actually respected itself. 

well ... 

 

 

3 hours ago, dave2017 said:

No matter what exterior changes they try with the comments they receive nothing will truly turn this into a great design aesthetic.  Lipstick on a pig 

LOL, I thought that "lipstick on a pig" refers to superficial upgrades to something unappealing that already exists.  Here they are actually building the initial pig.  I assume you refer to earlier, recent designs as the pigs, and you are quie right.

24 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

LOL, I thought that "lipstick on a pig" refers to superficial upgrades to something unappealing that already exists.  Here they are actually building the initial pig.  I assume you refer to earlier, recent designs as the pigs, and you are quie right.

I'm hearing rumors that they will put a 10ft tall pig statue out front like Skyline did with the dog.

What is most frustrating aspects of Bridgeworks is that there were some actual great designs that were passed on because of the landmarks commission input/disagreements.  With approvals consistently denied it pushed the timeline of construction into the covid building costs and increased interest rates. Hence Geis was brought in and a value engineered design happens.  I will wait to hear what the landmarks commission feels about the latest plans.  Will they send more adjustments beyond what Ohio City Design Review just asked for?  

 

I am curious what iteration of all the past designs would you have chosen to build? You can include the Geis design as an option.

My choice would have been the first high rise design that was brick