6 minutes ago, GISguy said:

@KFM44107 appreciate you sharing your perspective and experience. 

No problem. 

On 11/2/2021 at 1:14 PM, LifeLongClevelander said:

Supporting Issue 24 will negatively impact the size of the police department.  Yes, the bad police officers need to go and potential bad ones never get hired in the first place.  However, it will make the remaining good officers second-guess every action.  If it comes down to it, they may not take action or hesitate out of self-preservation.  If it triggers more attrition, his goal of expanding the police department becomes all the more, if not impossible to meet.  This city has seen the results of a diminished police department in both size and effectiveness.  How long before burnout from overwork and stress takes a bigger toll?  How much harder will it be to attract new potential officers? 

 

In the near term issue 24's passage will likely depress police morale and lead to more departures/early retirements.  Everyone hates uncertainty and that uncertainty leaves a vacuum for pessimism and conspiracy theories for now, but let's see how it plays out.  Long-term, if the oversight is not overly aggressive and is seen as fair, it could greatly boost morale, encourage recruits, and improve relations with the community.  Stay tuned.

I like the map version of this data:

 

38 minutes ago, Foraker said:

In the near term issue 24's passage will likely depress police morale and lead to more departures/early retirements.  Everyone hates uncertainty and that uncertainty leaves a vacuum for pessimism and conspiracy theories for now, but let's see how it plays out.  Long-term, if the oversight is not overly aggressive and is seen as fair, it could greatly boost morale, encourage recruits, and improve relations with the community.  Stay tuned.

Currently, the department is down at least 200 officers.  As @KFM44107 has stated, 425 more officers can retire right now.  Cannot envision that many retiring en masse, but what if a third decide to retire for whatever reason (Issue 24 passage, more stress/overwork, health, etc) and other younger officers decide to move to other departments.  CPD has already cannot keep up with the pace of attrition, so how will it be able to deal with an accelerated and increased attrition?  My concern is for the residents who have to wait for increased response times, businesses that could be negatively impacted and all of the good officers facing greater demands upon themselves.  Even if it can keep pace over a fairly short period of time, the department will be very "green" with a lot of lost experience.  For those citizens, businesses and officers, the long term may or may not be better, but for the near term it won't.    

 

@KFM44107- Your insight from the "inside" is greatly appreciated.  Also, thank you for all you do!

@KFM44107 Seconding the appreciation for sharing that experience, I believe it is very valuable in the conversations we have on this sliver of the interwebs. 

37 minutes ago, Dr_nkBear said:

@KFM44107 Seconding the appreciation for sharing that experience, I believe it is very valuable in the conversations we have on this sliver of the interwebs.

Yes. Just trying to give an inside perspective from someone who was on the outside only a few years ago. 

 

 

18 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Currently, the department is down at least 200 officers.  As @KFM44107 has stated, 425 more officers can retire right now.  Cannot envision that many retiring en masse, but what if a third decide to retire for whatever reason (Issue 24 passage, more stress/overwork, health, etc) and other younger officers decide to move to other departments.  CPD has already cannot keep up with the pace of attrition, so how will it be able to deal with an accelerated and increased attrition?  My concern is for the residents who have to wait for increased response times, businesses that could be negatively impacted and all of the good officers facing greater demands upon themselves.  Even if it can keep pace over a fairly short period of time, the department will be very "green" with a lot of lost experience.  For those citizens, businesses and officers, the long term may or may not be better, but for the near term it won't.    

 

@KFM44107- Your insight from the "inside" is greatly appreciated.  Also, thank you for all you do!

We all agree that having sufficient staffing in the near term is a concern.  Being short officers and having 425 officers eligible to retire now indicates a past failure to recruit.  Something needs to change.  We all appreciate the good work that our officers do and many of us think that more needs to be done to make sure that it is an attractive, rewarding, and respected profession.

 

But the impact of Issue 24 is yet to be determined.  We have civilian oversight of our military, and it is not often debilitating.  If the civilian oversight turns out to be reasonable then I don't think it will have any negative impact on recruitment at all.

 

I think that fears of increased oversight (much like fears of "socialism" overtaking our country) are overblown. I understand that that is just my opinion -- whether those fears turn out to be justified will take time to work out.  But if those potential-retirees and others buy into the fear of the unknown before there are any actual impacts from that oversight board, then the problem isn't the oversight, it's the amplification of fear-of-change.

 

Now that the law has passed, what can we do to make it the best version in its implementation?  And what more needs to be done to make policing in Cleveland an attractive profession?

On 11/2/2021 at 10:48 PM, Pugu said:

 

I'm very disappointed, but it was the outcome I expected given the primary results. I hope he proves my fears wrong.

 

The choice was a terrible one.   No experience versus negative experience.   

Though I doubt it would ever happen, Cleveland needs a city manager system of government.   It's hardly ideal considering some of the people that get elected to Council.   But it needs someone who can say no to interest groups, and I'm far from convinced that Bibb is that guy.

Edited November 4, 20213 yr by E Rocc

I know this is easier said than done but I just wish there were instant raises for police associated with this passing so the police could feel supported while also adding oversight.  I know good police who don't feel supported and whether or not some of this is self inflicted, the perception is still there.  Hence, city leadership including Justin Bibb, needs to think through ways to help good police feel supported while also trying to make improvements that weed out the bad police.  

 

Edit - Sorry I just realized this conversation happened on the mayoral race thread.  Please move it to the appropriate thread needed.

Edited November 4, 20213 yr by cle_guy90

17 minutes ago, Foraker said:

We all agree that having sufficient staffing in the near term is a concern.  Being short officers and having 425 officers eligible to retire now indicates a past failure to recruit.  Something needs to change.  We all appreciate the good work that our officers do and many of us think that more needs to be done to make sure that it is an attractive, rewarding, and respected profession.

 

But the impact of Issue 24 is yet to be determined.  We have civilian oversight of our military, and it is not often debilitating.  If the civilian oversight turns out to be reasonable then I don't think it will have any negative impact on recruitment at all.

 

I think that fears of increased oversight (much like fears of "socialism" overtaking our country) are overblown. I understand that that is just my opinion -- whether those fears turn out to be justified will take time to work out.  But if those potential-retirees and others buy into the fear of the unknown before there are any actual impacts from that oversight board, then the problem isn't the oversight, it's the amplification of fear-of-change.

 

Now that the law has passed, what can we do to make it the best version in its implementation?  And what more needs to be done to make policing in Cleveland an attractive profession?

 

Recruiting standards as well as hiring practices need to be reviewed and changed.  I do not want officers who were "problematic", fired or resigned in shame for "issues" hired. ["problematic" and "issues" will need to be defined later]   I want deep penetration background checks.

 

Once the Police department puts policies into place that make citizens see effective change, it will make it easier to partner with communities.  The police department should more closely mirror the people they are hired to protect and serve.

 

I think review boards are good thing, as long as members understand it's a two way street.  LEO need to also realize these boards are in place, not to punish anyone, but to make sure both citizens and LE employees are both held accountable for their actions.

42 minutes ago, Foraker said:

We all agree that having sufficient staffing in the near term is a concern.  Being short officers and having 425 officers eligible to retire now indicates a past failure to recruit.  Something needs to change.  We all appreciate the good work that our officers do and many of us think that more needs to be done to make sure that it is an attractive, rewarding, and respected profession.

 

But the impact of Issue 24 is yet to be determined.  We have civilian oversight of our military, and it is not often debilitating.  If the civilian oversight turns out to be reasonable then I don't think it will have any negative impact on recruitment at all.

 

I think that fears of increased oversight (much like fears of "socialism" overtaking our country) are overblown. I understand that that is just my opinion -- whether those fears turn out to be justified will take time to work out.  But if those potential-retirees and others buy into the fear of the unknown before there are any actual impacts from that oversight board, then the problem isn't the oversight, it's the amplification of fear-of-change.

 

Now that the law has passed, what can we do to make it the best version in its implementation?  And what more needs to be done to make policing in Cleveland an attractive profession?

About 20 years ago after Mike White abruptly decided to not seek a fourth term which resulted in Jane Campbell's election, Cleveland was facing a financial crisis (and is probably why White decided he didn't want to face it in a fourth term).  The police department had layoffs and academy classes were canceled.  Those events have probably contributed to situation of today.

What a clown. PD / CLE dot com may be a shadow of its former self, but it was dead right on Dennis this election cycle. 

 

 

Seems like a good sign

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

What a clown. PD / CLE dot com may be a shadow of its former self, but it was dead right on Dennis this election cycle. 

 

 

What a desperate person.

 

"You are the company you keep"

This was interesting:

 

"Another contribution [for Kelley] came from contribution from LNE Group, the lobbying firm run by Lee Weingart, the Republican candidate for Cuyahoga County. Bibb worked briefly at LNE Group while in college, Weingart told Ideastream Public Media recently. His firm contributed $4,000.... Weingart also noted that he gave $1,000 to the Bibb early in the campaign. ..."

 

Weingart played it safe by giving to both sides, but gave more to Kelley. LNE is a small firm--so he personally knew Bibb. And he gave 4x the amount he gave Bibb to his competitor.

I mean just because you work with someone doesn't mean that you like them or your values align. Not to mention Bibb was in college, that's far from being a partner w/ Weingart.

Oh, so many thoughts but this sums it up pretty well.

 

 

5 minutes ago, GISguy said:

I mean just because you work with someone doesn't mean that you like them or your values align. Not to mention Bibb was in college, that's far from being a partner w/ Weingart.

 

True, but you get a sense of the person. He was in college, not a five-year old.   I'm not sure what being a partner or not has to do with anything.

Keep reading and context is provided as to why he supported Kelly over Bibb...

 

"In a text message Weingart wrote that his company contributed to the PAC in order to oppose Issue 24, the police oversight charter amendment. Bibb supported the amendment, while Kelley made opposition to the amendment a central piece of his general election campaign message."

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

Keep reading and context is provided as to why he supported Kelly over Bibb...

 

"In a text message Weingart wrote that his company contributed to the PAC in order to oppose Issue 24, the police oversight charter amendment. Bibb supported the amendment, while Kelley made opposition to the amendment a central piece of his general election campaign message."

 

Yes, I did read that. Bibb's backing of Issue 24 showed he doesn't really understand how managing a police force in a major city works. If Weingart's statement is true, it makes sense as he wouldn't want a guy in office that doesn't understand something so critical to the functioning of the city.  But whatever his reasoning, actions speak louder than words. He gave Kelley 4x as much as he gave Bibb--who he has personally worked with and knows something about-- probably more than most people who just heard him talk and then voted for him (Bibb).  I'm wishing the best for Bibb and my city. Just found this new revelation very interesting.

I think your obsession with Bibb is more interesting.   What's your personal experience with Bibb?  I've never seen a person have it in so completely for a politician.

4 hours ago, X said:

I think your obsession with Bibb is more interesting.   What's your personal experience with Bibb?  I've never seen a person have it in so completely for a politician.

I have to say I agree. It certainly comes off as intensely personal. And I’ve seen some WEIRD vitriol on here during the Trump era lol, but this is up there

10 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

Yes, I did read that. Bibb's backing of Issue 24 showed he doesn't really understand how managing a police force in a major city works. 

 

Serious question --Are you a CPD officer?   Because there are many many cities across the country with various forms of civilian review boards, including many new ones spurred on by the BLM and "defund the police" movements.  

 

 

14 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Serious question --Are you a CPD officer?   Because there are many many cities across the country with various forms of civilian review boards, including many new ones spurred on by the BLM and "defund the police" movements.  

 

 

 

And many that have very little to do with BLM and defund the police...

 

Rather, some municipalities have always found it a better practice to have an independent arbiter to refer matters for prosecution

7 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

And many that have very little to do with BLM and defund the police...

 

Rather, some municipalities have always found it a better practice to have an independent arbiter to refer matters for prosecution

It's just sound governance to have independent oversight of police. This is a topic that liberals and conservatives should agree with.  But for some reason small government types don't view police for what they are, armed agents of the state. 

5 hours ago, X said:

I think your obsession with Bibb is more interesting.   What's your personal experience with Bibb?  I've never seen a person have it in so completely for a politician.

 

I'm not obsessed with anyone. I was simply responding to the link that @Boomerang_Brianposted and found something interesting about it. Its also relevant because Weingart himself is running for office again so his personal actions matter for the greater public.

31 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

Serious question --Are you a CPD officer?   Because there are many many cities across the country with various forms of civilian review boards, including many new ones spurred on by the BLM and "defund the police" movements.  

 

 

Are you suggesting that if I am a CPD officer, I am unable to identify a policy that is improperly written and can have inappropriate outcomes? Oversight improvements are needed. But, as written, Issue 24 was not the way to do it. 

This fascination with Weingart and his donations (lol it's $5k we're talking about, chump change) has overshadowed who was pushing for Kelley and how it backfired in their faces. To segue with the County Executive race, maybe it shows that the influence of the 'old guard' is fading. 

1 hour ago, YABO713 said:

. . . independent arbiter to refer matters for prosecution

 

That's not what Issue 24 does.  Issue 24 establishes an unaccountable collective body as the entity responsible for managing the police force.  The mayor, safety director, council and other supervisors are not longer answerable for the police.  Unelected appointees with their own agendas are now in charge.  If you don't like their policies or the level of police service, good luck getting their attention. 

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

I have to say I agree. It certainly comes off as intensely personal. And I’ve seen some WEIRD vitriol on here during the Trump era lol, but this is up there

 

We've seen worse for over six years on other fora, including from public figures.

4 hours ago, grayfields said:

 

That's not what Issue 24 does.  Issue 24 establishes an unaccountable collective body as the entity responsible for managing the police force.  The mayor, safety director, council and other supervisors are not longer answerable for the police.  Unelected appointees with their own agendas are now in charge.  If you don't like their policies or the level of police service, good luck getting their attention. 

 

An unaccountable body virtually guaranteed to object to not merely law enforcement, but the enforcement of certain laws.

 

At best it's authority without responsibility for the results.   That never goes well.

Edited February 1, 20223 yr by E Rocc

Perhaps it's time to start an Issue 24 thread? 

5 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

Are you suggesting that if I am a CPD officer, I am unable to identify a policy that is improperly written and can have inappropriate outcomes? Oversight improvements are needed. But, as written, Issue 24 was not the way to do it. 

Not at all.  It's just most of the anti Issue 24 rhetoric I've overheard has been in west side bars from guys with bad tribal tattoos, who may just be cops by day.   Probably just a coincidence.... 

And here’s a good look… /sarcasm

 

One can hope!!!!

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, GISguy said:

One can hope!!!!

 

 

 

 

Or another cabal prevailing.