1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

 

Nice to know where the race stands three weeks out. This was a poll of registered voters, not likely voters though.

 

Wonder how things would shift if the poll was conducted with only likely voters. My guess is that undecided would come down significantly. 

 

One of the survey questions was 

 

Do you plan to vote in the election scheduled for November 2nd? to which 82% said yes.

No 3.6%

Unsure 14.3%

 

Also asked:

If you voted in the Cleveland mayoral primary held on September 14th, which candidate did you select? to which:

did not vote - 34.6%

No response - 1.3%

 

So at least most SAID they would vote in the general. Though when asked HOW they will vote (at polling location, early, or at BOE), 20% did not respond to the question.

 

But overall, with whopping 40% undecided with only 4-5 weeks out (when the survey was done) that's pretty telling that neither candidate is of really outstanding--either that or that they are so close that people just can't decide. Or people just don't care.

 

Bottom line:  with only an 11 point spread between the two candidates, it really could go either way if this polling is accurate.

 

 

An opportunity to meet the candidates in person. Event TONIGHT--both candidates to take Q&A's on public transit at Forest City Brewery on Columbus Rd.

 

 

"Join CPT tonight to hear more from the candidates about the issues facing the many people that rely on public transportation and how they plan to end the transit death spiral in Cleveland."

 

"Both Justin Bibb and Kevin Kelley will take the GCRTA bus from their neighborhood and meet with members from CPT at Forest City Brewery to discuss their ideas and plans to improve public transit. The ride-along will allow both candidates to experience how the average Clevelander uses transit."

 

https://clefortransit.org/2021/10/12/press-release-clevelanders-for-public-transit-hosts-mayoral-candidates-bus-ride-along-and-transit-rider-q-a-tonight

 

8 hours ago, Pugu said:

^Keeping CWRU grads in town is more than just meeting with Case's president, as Bibb said he would do---its having jobs and job growth opportunities in the city--which is beyond the purview of Case. Kelley's response was far more holistic on that issue. 

 

Also, remember, last night Bibb called Dayton and Toledo our peers. How's that for vision and aspirational thinking? 

 

I'm one, and it would make zero difference whatsoever if the mayor met with the University Pres.   With his predecesor, it would be a negative.

I pretty much agree that Kelley is condescending, arrogant, and means business as usual.

I very much agree that Bibb is style over substance, completely inexperienced, and basically Dennis The Sequel.

I'm about as "enthusiastic" as I was in 2016  (but there's no third party candidate to consider.).    This is the best we can do?

7 minutes ago, Pugu said:

An opportunity to meet the candidates in person. Event TONIGHT--both candidates to take Q&A's on public transit at Forest City Brewery on Columbus Rd.

 

 

"Join CPT tonight to hear more from the candidates about the issues facing the many people that rely on public transportation and how they plan to end the transit death spiral in Cleveland."

 

"Both Justin Bibb and Kevin Kelley will take the GCRTA bus from their neighborhood and meet with members from CPT at Forest City Brewery to discuss their ideas and plans to improve public transit. The ride-along will allow both candidates to experience how the average Clevelander uses transit."

 

https://clefortransit.org/2021/10/12/press-release-clevelanders-for-public-transit-hosts-mayoral-candidates-bus-ride-along-and-transit-rider-q-a-tonight

 

 

The average Cleveland user uses it because they have no other options, or uses it strictly to commute.

They are going inbound during the outbound rush hour.

I am pretty sure they will have CPD or private bodyguards along.

 

23 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

One of the survey questions was 

 

Do you plan to vote in the election scheduled for November 2nd? to which 82% said yes.

No 3.6%

Unsure 14.3%

 

Also asked:

If you voted in the Cleveland mayoral primary held on September 14th, which candidate did you select? to which:

did not vote - 34.6%

No response - 1.3%

 

So at least most SAID they would vote in the general. Though when asked HOW they will vote (at polling location, early, or at BOE), 20% did not respond to the question.

 

But overall, with whopping 40% undecided with only 4-5 weeks out (when the survey was done) that's pretty telling that neither candidate is of really outstanding--either that or that they are so close that people just can't decide. Or people just don't care.

 

Bottom line:  with only an 11 point spread between the two candidates, it really could go either way if this polling is accurate.

 

 

Thanks for pointing that out. If I'm remembering correctly people usually tend to overstate their intentions to vote. It varies by pollsters, but I think when they usually determine the likely voter pool they look at past voter turnout, which was very low during the primary and has been historically low in Cleveland.

 

40% is still significant though.

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

 

The average Cleveland user uses it because they have no other options, or uses it strictly to commute.

They are going inbound during the outbound rush hour.

I am pretty sure they will have CPD or private bodyguards along.

 

 

Lol

Who Wants to Lead America’s Poorest Big City Out of a Pandemic?

 

Justin Bibb and Kevin Kelley are vying to become the next mayor of Cleveland, a tough job with a sweetener of $511 million from the American Rescue Plan.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-13/cleveland-mayor-race-justin-bibb-kevin-kelley-vie-to-lead-poorest-city

14 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

Lol

Wait….is there second or third source confirmation on this? Kelley really skipped the VERY prominently-promoted bus ride to the transit forum, and then also left afterward via SUV!?

 

If true, wow. This and other recent missteps, who the heck is running his campaign?! He seems to be quite adept lately at snatching outright condescension from the jaws of mediocrity. 

50 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Who Wants to Lead America’s Poorest Big City Out of a Pandemic?

 

Justin Bibb and Kevin Kelley are vying to become the next mayor of Cleveland, a tough job with a sweetener of $511 million from the American Rescue Plan.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-13/cleveland-mayor-race-justin-bibb-kevin-kelley-vie-to-lead-poorest-city

 

Half of the money of the $511M is already at City Hall and has been there a while. Why hasn't Jackson used it? For $250M he could have create a memorable legacy project as his last official act---broadband for everyone or something. Why hasn't he? Does he just not even bother these days? Typically all politicians want their legacy project before leaving office--and you'd think it would be especially true for one in office for 16 years.

Because you have to show to an investor (the feds) your plan on how you're going to invest it and how it will meet the goals and guidelines of how it supposed to be invested. You seem surprised that this is a little more complicated than giving spare change to a homeless person.

27 minutes ago, KJP said:

Because you have to show to an investor (the feds) your plan on how you're going to invest it and how it will meet the goals and guidelines of how it supposed to be invested. You seem surprised that this is a little more complicated than giving spare change to a homeless person.

 

Broadband deployment is an allowable use under the guidelines and it would make a giant impact for the city by narrowing the digital divide. The feds WANT the money to be spent as soon as possible as its part of the economic recovery AND aimed to help stop covid. It is actually less complicated than you are making it sound.

One of the very few good things to come out of Frank's reign is, to my understanding, he was pretty fiscally responsible with the budget. It's good to have a rainy day fund, and the city didn't need to incur any debt to fund projects last year, which is pretty impressive all things considered. 

 

There are enough albatrosses - Medical Mart (or whatever the f it's called), Flats train, Browns stadium - that we (the city/county) are still wasting money on. It's better to be smarter about the next big investment, and Frank's unwillingness to pull the trigger is probably for the best.

Edited October 13, 20213 yr by TBideon

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Because you have to show to an investor (the feds) your plan on how you're going to invest it and how it will meet the goals and guidelines of how it supposed to be invested. You seem surprised that this is a little more complicated than giving spare change to a homeless person.

True--and even moreso when dealing with the City of Cleveland.  The Feds have very specific guidelines for how plans are to be written and expenses all accounted for.   This requires hundreds of hours of manhours in preparation, in a City Hall where not many manhours are produced daily.  They are probably still thinking about talking about having a meeting to discuss hiring a consultant to guide them.  

9 hours ago, brtshrcegr said:

Wait….is there second or third source confirmation on this? Kelley really skipped the VERY prominently-promoted bus ride to the transit forum, and then also left afterward via SUV!?

 

If true, wow. This and other recent missteps, who the heck is running his campaign?! He seems to be quite adept lately at snatching outright condescension from the jaws of mediocrity. 

 

To be honest, I'm a little amused.   The thing was entirely contrived to begin with.   It's speaks to his shady nature, but let's be real, that's a politician thing.

In the last day or so, this has shifted from the 2016 Presidential race (no way can I vote for either) to the 2020.  I just might hold my nose and vote for Kelley, for precisely one reason:  he opposes Issue 24, the one reason I've definitely decided to vote. 

 

Leaving aside the inevitability that the "Community Police Commission" is destined to be the biggest political clown show since the city had an elected school board, and leaving aside that at least some members would not only oppose law enforcement but the enforcement of laws, policing is one of those tasks that seems simple to those who don't have to do it.  It involves making people do what they don't want to do.  (Been there, to a much lower degree).

I get that Bibb has to endorse it, but his enthusiasm about it just shows how he's prone to pie in the sky generalities without any practical basis whatsoever.

Bibb has said he wants to raise the pay for police. 

8 hours ago, surfohio said:

Bibb has said he wants to raise the pay for police. 

 

Good example. The police SHOULD be paid more in the city especially relative to the suburbs as their job is harder than in the burbs. But he never says HOW he is going to pay for it. Any fool can spout off promises and ideas. He never follows it up and says, "and this will be funded by...."  This example can be applied to just about everything he says. So why do people keep falling for it? 

26 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Good example. The police SHOULD be paid more in the city especially relative to the suburbs as their job is harder than in the burbs. But he never says HOW he is going to pay for it. Any fool can spout off promises and ideas. He never follows it up and says, "and this will be funded by...."  This example can be applied to just about everything he says. So why do people keep falling for it? 

 

I've combed Kevin Kelley's site and he isn't saying "and this will be funded by..." either. Worth noting: in his Public Safety section Kelley makes even more promises than Bibb.

 

Please apply equal scrutiny to Kelley if you really want to be taken seriously.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

I've combed Kevin Kelley's site and he isn't saying "and this will be funded by..." either. Worth noting: in his Public Safety section Kelley makes even more promises than Bibb.

 

Please apply equal scrutiny to Kelley if you really want to be taken seriously.

 

Even if Kelley is not saying how things are funded, you know he's a realist and fairly conservative compared to Bibb, so he's not even going to say something as a promise if it can't be funded or implemented. Because of this cautious and accurate approach of his, its biting him in the butt. For anyone on a campaign trail, Kelley's fault is that he is being too cautious and too real. For example, the Bibbers are twisting Kelley's true statement that change in  government is "hard" into, "therefore, he won't do it." He never said that he won't implement change--he only mentioned it was hard to provide a sense of reality to Bibb and Bibbers that one can't just make lofty changes in government or just increase the salary of all cops by 50--or whatever--percent.  You pay the cops more--where does the money come from? You think if you pay the cops more, EMS and Fire and Corrections won't want more too? And what about everybody else in City Government---they're underpaid too. Where does all that money come from? Or are instead cutting whole programs and shutting down rec centers?

 

But let's just say they both promise $500 millions/year of extra stuff. Which of the two candidates do you think is truly more able to deliver on that promise? One that knows how city government and funding works and with years of experience in it or one who has absolutely no clue and no experience? 

 

After 16 years of Jackson we need new leadership with experience, not Dennis the Sequel.

Edited October 14, 20213 yr by Pugu

17 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

Even if Kelley is not saying how things are funded, you know he's a realist...

 

Stopped reading here, answer my question. If you're going to go after Bibb for broad statements, go after Kelley in the same way.

 

Again, Kelley makes more promises and still has no way to pay for it. How does your logic check out? Cautious or not, there's no means of paying for it anywhere on KK's website. (Nor is it on Bibb's). 

Edited October 14, 20213 yr by GISguy

16 minutes ago, Pugu said:

Which of the two candidates do you think is truly more able to deliver on that promise? One that knows how city government and funding works and with years of experience in it or one who has absolutely no clue and no experience? 

 

Kelly has been President of Council for 7 years, oversaw a .5% tax increase to "improve services" and I still can't get my street swept once a month and city-owned lots around me mowed.    Sounds to me like Kelly has experience...the kind of bad experience that contributes the glacier that is city hall....

2 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

Even if Kelley is not saying how things are funded, you know he's a realist and fairly conservative compared to Bibb, so he's not even going to say something as a promise if it can't be funded or implemented.

 

We don't know that.  You're claiming that.  You've offered no proof, though.

42 minutes ago, X said:

 

We don't know that.  You're claiming that.  You've offered no proof, though.

We do know that, because Pugu likes him. haven't you read their last 100 or so comments?

1 hour ago, Ineffable_Matt said:

We do know that, because Pugu likes him. haven't you read their last 100 or so comments?

 

Ha! I never said I liked him. But he is FAR more preferable than Bibb--so from a relative perspective, I like him. But only because I think Bibb will be very detrimental to the city in the worse case, utterly pointless and useless in the best case. If we want at the minimum SOME positive change, Kelley will give us that. No change or negative change is what Bibb will deliver. So from that view, yes, I like Kelley.

3 hours ago, X said:

 

We don't know that.  You're claiming that.  You've offered no proof, though.

 

Proof of what Kelley or Bibb did as mayor vs. what they are promising can only be seen on whoever wins and only after some time in office as mayor. There is no proof that I or anyone can provide today.

 

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

 

Proof of what Kelley or Bibb did as mayor vs. what they are promising can only be seen on whoever wins and only after some time in office as mayor. There is no proof that I or anyone can provide today.

 

This goes counter to ALL of the stuff you've said against Bibb and FOR Kelley.

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

 

Proof of what Kelley or Bibb did as mayor vs. what they are promising can only be seen on whoever wins and only after some time in office as mayor. There is no proof that I or anyone can provide today.

 

 

Well, since you don't have anything useful to add, time to move on.

3 hours ago, GISguy said:

This goes counter to ALL of the stuff you've said against Bibb and FOR Kelley.

 

Are you saying in the past I gave concrete evidence against Bibb and for Kelley? I never did such as I can't see the future. I think you should follow X's guidance here and keep the discussion on the race and not on me just because I oppose your darling candidate. This is why Bibbers are like Trumpers--they get all riled up if someone doesn't agree with the absolute worship of the figure who doesn't deserve such worship. What's next, the storming of City Hall a-la-Jan 6th if Bibb doesn't win?

1 hour ago, Pugu said:

 

Are you saying in the past I gave concrete evidence against Bibb and for Kelley? I never did such as I can't see the future. I think you should follow X's guidance here and keep the discussion on the race and not on me just because I oppose your darling candidate. This is why Bibbers are like Trumpers--they get all riled up if someone doesn't agree with the absolute worship of the figure who doesn't deserve such worship. What's next, the storming of City Hall a-la-Jan 6th if Bibb doesn't win?

Wow. 

 

I didn't realize asking for proof of your claims thoughout these past few pages is akin to cultism for Bibb. You've literally spouted off about how Bibb makes promises with no ability to pay for them (Kelley does the same), you claim Bibb has no experience as folks chime in about Kelley's lackluster experience, and then in your most recent post you say that "time will tell" when people start asking for proof of your claims. 

 

This isn't about you, I have better things to worry about, this is a discussion about the mayoral candidates. In discussions and arguments people are expected to push forth facts to back their claims. Youve been challenged countless times to backup all of your claims about Bibb and Kelley and every time you somehow consider being questioned an attack. 

 

The icing on the cake is saying Bibb supporters are so cultist that they'd storm city hall, like wtf dude. We're asking you to back up your "factual" opinions and X has literally asked you to do so or shut up, and you keep going and going and there's absolutely no substance just empty conspiratorial claims. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 20213 yr by GISguy

14 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

... Any fool can spout off …

 

20 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

This isn't about you, I have better things to worry about, this is a discussion about the mayoral candidates. In discussions and arguments people are expected to push forth facts to back their claims. Youve been challenged countless times to backup all of your claims about Bibb and Kelley and every time you somehow consider being questioned an attack. 

 

How can I possibly provide "proof" of how damaging a Bibb mayoral administration will be if he hasn't been in office yet? Its like me asking you to give me proof that the president taking office in 2041 is a good (or bad) president. The demand for proof makes no sense. For the closest HINTS of what will be proof, I've provided over and over again. And I'll provide it again:  LISTEN to Bibb. Listen to him talk for five straight minutes. He provides all the "proof" you need that he's got no clue whatsoever. It will result in people and interests walking all over him and the city for their own interests and he won't know any better or if he does, he won't know how to handle it. Bibb provides the proof himself. Just listen to any of the debates or interviews with him. It's right there.

Some "proof" just rolled in. Bibb's campaign sent Kevin Kelley a cease and desist letter over campaign material. Bibb clearly doesn't understand how campaigns work. This letter from his lawyer can be some of the "proof" you are seeking of his cluelessness. Kelley's response was pretty clever: A letter back to the attorney stating, "We are writing to alert you that someone may have obtained a copy of your letterhead and used it to send a frivolous communication to our office that does not appear to be authored by an actual attorney."  You can read Bibb's lawyer's letter and Kelley's response letter at wkyc.com.

You should post links to things like that.  I just searched wkyc and came up with nothing about these letters.

2 hours ago, Pugu said:

Bibb clearly doesn't understand how campaigns work.

 

Kelley's condescension is spreading to you. He sent a C&D to make a rebuttal against a deceptive mailer, get over it. Kelley's using Republican fearmongering tactics and doing the bidding of the Police Union, trying to tie Bibb to "Defund the Police" which is patently false. 

 

Bibb probably did the cease and desist for press coverage even if there's not a strong case (a common tactic) and it seems like it worked. "Doesn't know how campaigns work." Give me a break.

 

Link

 

 

Edited October 15, 20213 yr by mu2010

2 hours ago, mu2010 said:

 

Kelley's condescension is spreading to you. He sent a C&D to make a rebuttal against a deceptive mailer, get over it. Kelley's using Republican fearmongering tactics and doing the bidding of the Police Union, trying to tie Bibb to "Defund the Police" which is patently false. 

 

Bibb probably did the cease and desist for press coverage even if there's not a strong case (a common tactic) and it seems like it worked. "Doesn't know how campaigns work." Give me a break.

 

Link

 

 

I begrudgingly give partial credit to the Kelley team for the wink to the Cleveland-originated G.O.A.T. example of clever legal correspondence. At the same time, the impersonation doesn’t hit as clever. 
 

The art–and craftiness–of cease-and-desist letters

 

I don’t know that Bibb would make a bad mayor, but I’m in agreement that some of his ideas are pie in the sky.  The fact that he supports 24, which is a violation of the CBA the city has with it’s employees, makes me wonder just how short sighted he is politically.

 

And I don’t have a crystal ball, but would predict a contentious working relationship between himself and council if he’s elected.

8 hours ago, Pugu said:

Some "proof" just rolled in. Bibb's campaign sent Kevin Kelley a cease and desist letter over campaign material. Bibb clearly doesn't understand how campaigns work. This letter from his lawyer can be some of the "proof" you are seeking of his cluelessness. Kelley's response was pretty clever: A letter back to the attorney stating, "We are writing to alert you that someone may have obtained a copy of your letterhead and used it to send a frivolous communication to our office that does not appear to be authored by an actual attorney."  You can read Bibb's lawyer's letter and Kelley's response letter at wkyc.com.

 

That's hilarious.   Sounds like a letter allegedly written to a Browns season ticket holder who complained about paper airplanes at the games.

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cleveland-browns-letters/

 

Edit:   I should have known someone would beat me to it.

 

Edited October 15, 20213 yr by E Rocc

3 hours ago, Sapper Daddy said:

And I don’t have a crystal ball, but would predict a contentious working relationship between himself and council if he’s elected.

 

This may be true, if only because council is content to maintain the status quo over their little fiefdoms.    They don't want new ideas or 21st century thinking.  They want to come to the rescue of their constituents by getting the city to fulfill the basic services it should already do without having to contact one's member of council.   

39 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

This may be true, if only because council is content to maintain the status quo over their little fiefdoms.    They don't want new ideas or 21st century thinking.  They want to come to the rescue of their constituents by getting the city to fulfill the basic services it should already do without having to contact one's member of council.   

I wouldn’t necessarily count on that. Bibb has a number of endorsements from current and former councilmembers. And in any event, after the last 16 years, would it really be so bad to actually have a council that acted more as a co-equal check on the mayor?!

37 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

This may be true, if only because council is content to maintain the status quo over their little fiefdoms.    They don't want new ideas or 21st century thinking.  They want to come to the rescue of their constituents by getting the city to fulfill the basic services it should already do without having to contact one's member of council.   

 

Was going to say something very similar. I don't understand why council would give such extreme pushback to ideas that our peer cities have instituted 10-20 years ago, other than to hold constituents hostage.

 

Is it too much to ask to move our city services into the 20th century? Maybe even move into the 21st if we're really lucky. 

This should be a huge red flag to KK supporters

^ummmmm....if Sweeney who's been around for ages who Scene calls one of the region's "slimiest career politicians" wants business as usual and no changes, it makes sense for him to support Bibb because Bibb will be ineffectual to getting anything changed or accomplished because he's utterly clueless. Very shrewd move by Sweeney and an endorsement that Kelley could do without.

 

https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2021/01/19/marty-sweeney-weasels-his-way-back-into-office-aided-and-abetted-by-cuyahoga-county-dems

 

2 minutes ago, Pugu said:

...because Bibb will be ineffectual to getting anything changed or accomplished because he's utterly clueless. 

 

🙄

2 minutes ago, Pugu said:

^ummmmm....if Sweeney who's been around for ages who Scene calls one of the region's "slimiest career politicians" wants business as usual and no changes, it makes sense for him to support Bibb because Bibb will be ineffectual to getting anything changed or accomplished because he's utterly clueless. Very shrewd move by Sweeney and an endorsement that Kelley could do without.

 

https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2021/01/19/marty-sweeney-weasels-his-way-back-into-office-aided-and-abetted-by-cuyahoga-county-dems

 

 

SO your best defense of this endorsement is a Sam Allard opinion piece? HAHAHAHA

Just now, GISguy said:

 

🙄

 

If you're Sweeney and you want no change, you support the candidate that is more incapable of change. Its not rocket science.

3 minutes ago, Pugu said:

^ummmmm....if Sweeney who's been around for ages who Scene calls one of the region's "slimiest career politicians" wants business as usual and no changes, it makes sense for him to support Bibb because Bibb will be ineffectual to getting anything changed or accomplished because he's utterly clueless. Very shrewd move by Sweeney and an endorsement that Kelley could do without.

 

https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2021/01/19/marty-sweeney-weasels-his-way-back-into-office-aided-and-abetted-by-cuyahoga-county-dems

 

 

@bikemail Yeah, bikemail, because we've been talking about Sweeney all this time.

 

11 minutes ago, Pugu said:

@bikemail Yeah, bikemail, because we've been talking about Sweeney all this time.

 

Nah, specifically referring to your never-ending, unsubstantiated refrain of "Bibb will be ineffectual to getting anything changed or accomplished because he's utterly clueless". 
 

^oh. except my comments are not unsubstantiated. the recordings of him are publicly available on the web.

Quick hit from S'Allard

 

Why on Earth is Marty Freaking Sweeney Endorsing Justin Bibb? And Why on Earth is Bibb Accepting?

Posted By Sam Allard on Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 10:54 am

 

https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2021/10/15/why-on-earth-is-marty-freaking-sweeney-endorsing-justin-bibb-and-why-on-earth-is-bibb-accepting

 

PS- how do you mute someone in here? lol

Got my vote on today, BOE is super quiet but staff are extra friendly and helpful as usual. 

 

Wearing my

OHIO

VOTED

Sticker with pride!