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Cleveland Mayoral Race 2021

Pugu
in Ohio Politics

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20 hours ago, GISguy said:

I don't look at Kelley or Kucinich's experience and think it gets them anywhere- as someone stated upthread, what exactly has Kelley done to earn my vote? Not push back on Jackson? Be reactive to Cleveland dot com articles? Let Ken Johnson run amuck for his entire tenure? I don't get this obsession with "experience".

 

Can't leave out his cold war against public comment

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23 hours ago, mu2010 said:

 

Bingo. The lowest hanging fruit to improve Cleveland is to simply to follow good management practices and make City Hall less dysfunctional.

 

I'd like to see the city move towards a manager form of government.   

19 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'd like to see the city move towards a manager form of government.   

 

I tend to agree, but it's very unpopular - see what happened in Cleveland Heights.

19 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I'd like to see the city move towards a manager form of government.   

 

18 minutes ago, mu2010 said:

 

I tend to agree, but it's very unpopular - see what happened in Cleveland Heights.

 

Here's the problem with the current Cleveland Heights government (six at-large council members, they elect one of themselves to be "mayor," and there is a city manager who reports to council) -- the buck doesn't stop with any one person. 

 

The city manager is not responsive to citizens, because she is responsible to city council.  Other than running council meetings, the "mayor" has no more say than any other council person.  So if you have a problem you have to go to every council member and get at least a majority of them on your side AND willing to act quickly, which rarely happens.  There's a lot of "OK, but you need to get Council on board" and then "well, you make a good point but I'm only one councilperson . . . ."   Still, this system worked well enough to last 75 years.

 

Would Cleveland fare any better due to council members representing defined Wards?  Maybe.  Maybe not -- who is accountable for looking out for the good of the collective whole?

55 minutes ago, Foraker said:

 

 

Here's the problem with the current Cleveland Heights government (six at-large council members, they elect one of themselves to be "mayor," and there is a city manager who reports to council) -- the buck doesn't stop with any one person. 

 

The city manager is not responsive to citizens, because she is responsible to city council.  Other than running council meetings, the "mayor" has no more say than any other council person.  So if you have a problem you have to go to every council member and get at least a majority of them on your side AND willing to act quickly, which rarely happens.  There's a lot of "OK, but you need to get Council on board" and then "well, you make a good point but I'm only one councilperson . . . ."   Still, this system worked well enough to last 75 years.

 

Would Cleveland fare any better due to council members representing defined Wards?  Maybe.  Maybe not -- who is accountable for looking out for the good of the collective whole?

 

It’s worked well for Bedford, which has had fewer inner ring problems than its neighbors.  Similar setup, the mayor is ceremonial and chosen by council, the city manager is a professional chosen by the council.  

IIRC Bedford has both district and at large councilmen.

 

One of the benefits is a city manager is more likely to be responsive to non-resident stakeholders such as businesses. 

Edited by E Rocc

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

 

 

Here's the problem with the current Cleveland Heights government (six at-large council members, they elect one of themselves to be "mayor," and there is a city manager who reports to council) -- the buck doesn't stop with any one person. 

 

The city manager is not responsive to citizens, because she is responsible to city council.  Other than running council meetings, the "mayor" has no more say than any other council person.  So if you have a problem you have to go to every council member and get at least a majority of them on your side AND willing to act quickly, which rarely happens.  There's a lot of "OK, but you need to get Council on board" and then "well, you make a good point but I'm only one councilperson . . . ."   Still, this system worked well enough to last 75 years.

 

Would Cleveland fare any better due to council members representing defined Wards?  Maybe.  Maybe not -- who is accountable for looking out for the good of the collective whole?

 

 

It's a pretty standard arrangement (called "council-manager" as opposed to "strong mayor"), where Mayor is a ceremonial title but in actuality there is no independently elected executive branch. Perhaps citizens in those places don't like it because it doesn't match their expectation as to what a Mayor does. Cincinnati worked exactly that way until 1999, then voters went to the ballot box and approved a hybrid "stronger-mayor" system. They had much of the same complaints you mentioned above.

 

To broadly generalize, under a council-manager form of government, you'll probably get more efficient service delivery, but a government that's less responsive to big changes or big issues/controversies that arise. The Top of the Hill development was the big controversy in Heights that started the debate about the form of government.

Edited by mu2010

28 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

One of the benefits is a city manager is more likely to be responsive to non-resident stakeholders such as businesses. 

 

Maybe, but not necessarily.  That hasn't been the case in Cleveland Heights. 

 

If the City Manager is looking to Council for approval and permission on every matter, I can see how the city manager can be afraid to lead, to be out in front on matters -- perhaps that is what is leading to some of the problems they have in Cleveland Heights.  I suspect that with the right personalities in the city manager and on council they can lead together, but that apparently isn't happening.

 

But we've also seen (Cleveland) how a mayor and ward-elected council can fail to lead as well.  Cleveland Heights might be disappointed in what they get.

Ask Cleveland's Next Mayor
 

https://www.ideastream.org/ask-clevelands-next-mayor?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=TheCityClub


***

Cleveland will elect its first new mayor in 16 years. Knowing where the candidates stand on the issues, and what they plan to do for Cleveland, is essential to making an informed vote.

That's where you come in. What issues do the mayoral candidates need to pay attention to? What are the city's most pressing needs? And if you could ask a question of the candidates, what would that question be?

ideastream and the City Club of Cleveland are planning mayoral forums with the help of the more than two dozen media outlets who form the Northeast Ohio Solutions Journalismcollaborative. The questions for the candidates will come directly from you. Please let us know what you believe the candidates need to address. And please let us know what specific question you'd like to have answered. 

***

When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?

 

Trademark violation. Hopefully Destination Cleveland issues a cease and desist. Kucinich is awful. 
 

 

 

When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?

I am appalled and disgusted by Dennis Kucinich's campaign tactics.   Yes crime is high and needs to be addressed but using a beloved, copyrighted image that promotes tourism to Cleveland is not going to help at all. I am a native Clevelander and now reside in Los Angeles.  I hold Cleveland near to my heart and frown upon bad PR.  This campaign brochure does just that and is only being used as a scare tactic for votes

41 minutes ago, dave2017 said:

I am appalled and disgusted by Dennis Kucinich's campaign tactics.   

Can I add sickened to your list @dave2017?   Maybe this will be a  mistake his campaign won't recover from.  

While I don’t agree with the message or the use of the script logo, this is in line with the stuff Kucinich has done for years. After the default he marched down to Cleveland trust to close his account as a publicity stunt. He has the campaign strategies of a shock jock- it might look bad, but everyone’s talking about it 

12 hours ago, TheLand34 said:

While I don’t agree with the message or the use of the script logo, this is in line with the stuff Kucinich has done for years. After the default he marched down to Cleveland trust to close his account as a publicity stunt. He has the campaign strategies of a shock jock- it might look bad, but everyone’s talking about it 

 

Fortunately - there aren't enough old, white "HE CALLS IT LIKE HE SEES IT" voters in Cleveland to carry an election. 

 

It might win him the hearts of some folks in North Ridgeville and Mentor that say they're from Cleveland, though

What should we expect for polling cycles here? Are we ever likely to get high quality polls, or even medium quality on a regular basis? I wonder when they could start. 

Justin Bibb doing the podcast rounds:
 

 

When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?

On 7/2/2021 at 9:35 PM, dave2017 said:

I am appalled and disgusted by Dennis Kucinich's campaign tactics.   Yes crime is high and needs to be addressed but using a beloved, copyrighted image that promotes tourism to Cleveland is not going to help at all. I am a native Clevelander and now reside in Los Angeles.  I hold Cleveland near to my heart and frown upon bad PR.  This campaign brochure does just that and is only being used as a scare tactic for votes

 

On 7/2/2021 at 10:21 PM, DO_Summers said:

Can I add sickened to your list @dave2017?   Maybe this will be a  mistake his campaign won't recover from.  

 

On 7/3/2021 at 11:06 AM, YABO713 said:

 

Fortunately - there aren't enough old, white "HE CALLS IT LIKE HE SEES IT" voters in Cleveland to carry an election. 

 

It might win him the hearts of some folks in North Ridgeville and Mentor that say they're from Cleveland, though

 

Disgusting, distasteful, sickening, appalling and revolting to use such campaign tactics?  Absolutely without a doubt it is.  Shock tactics pulled right out of his playbook.  Will it cost him votes?  Don't know about that.  When one looks at the triple-digit homicide totals seven years in a row from 2014 to 2020 with 2021 certainly going to make it an eighth consecutive year with that sort of total.  From 2014 to 2020, the total almost doubled from 102 to 190 homicides.  That total of 190 per capita is greater than the 333 when the city had its all-time high of homicides in 1972.  There may be more than enough knee-jerk voters who won't look into his track record and history regardless of age, gender or race.  Those voters will look at the homicide totals, see how the crime and violence have affected how they live or know somebody who has fallen victim.  It could carry enough voters to decide the race.  The lack of digging further has happened before, gotten somebody elected and it should be very scary. 

10 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

 

 

Disgusting, distasteful, sickening, appalling and revolting to use such campaign tactics?  Absolutely without a doubt it is.  Shock tactics pulled right out of his playbook.  Will it cost him votes?  Don't know about that.  When one looks at the triple-digit homicide totals seven years in a row from 2014 to 2020 with 2021 certainly going to make it an eighth consecutive year with that sort of total.  From 2014 to 2020, the total almost doubled from 102 to 190 homicides.  That total of 190 per capita is greater than the 333 when the city had its all-time high of homicides in 1972.  There may be more than enough knee-jerk voters who won't look into his track record and history regardless of age, gender or race.  Those voters will look at the homicide totals, see how the crime and violence have affected how they live or know somebody who has fallen victim.  It could carry enough voters to decide the race.  The lack of digging further has happened before, gotten somebody elected and it should be very scary. 

 

I think there's certainly a nuanced way to go about it between Kucinich's path and the path of other Dem candidates. To be frank, I think a lot of times when the murder rate is pointed out, it's automatically called a dog whistle. 

 

The fact of the matter is... in addition to systemic failures that adversely affect black communities, the homicide rate adds kerosene to that housefire. It's an uncomfortable topic, but support for disenfranchised communities and violent crime definitely have a correlative relationship. We can't truly address one without the other. 

 

I've obviously made my support for Bibb obvious, but I think one area where I wish he'd improve is a plan to make neighborhoods safer. I love his social worker-with-police idea, and I know he'd obviously endorse job growth in those areas - which naturally decreases crime. Nonetheless, I haven't seen a single candidate directly address the issue of violent crime in a nuanced way - candidates either tip toe around it, or are point-blank racist about it. 

 

"In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck

3 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

I think there's certainly a nuanced way to go about it between Kucinich's path and the path of other Dem candidates. To be frank, I think a lot of times when the murder rate is pointed out, it's automatically called a dog whistle. 

 

The fact of the matter is... in addition to systemic failures that adversely affect black communities, the homicide rate adds kerosene to that housefire. It's an uncomfortable topic, but support for disenfranchised communities and violent crime definitely have a correlative relationship. We can't truly address one without the other. 

 

I've obviously made my support for Bibb obvious, but I think one area where I wish he'd improve is a plan to make neighborhoods safer. I love his social worker-with-police idea, and I know he'd obviously endorse job growth in those areas - which naturally decreases crime. Nonetheless, I haven't seen a single candidate directly address the issue of violent crime in a nuanced way - candidates either tip toe around it, or are point-blank racist about it. 

 

The NYC mayoral race was very interesting to follow in light of everything you're discussing here. They just finally projected the winner yesterday.

 

Eric Adams, a Black Democrat and former cop won the race by winning the Black vote and broadly the multi-racial working class vote. He didn't go for the very progressive or wealthier voters. He talked about crime a lot, while still talking about addressing police brutality and abuse. The two should not be mutually exclusive. (Though he supports stop-and-frisk which many liberals rightly despise).

 

The takeaway is that progressives can't just pretend crime doesn't exist, especially in the short run before more systemic solutions can be realized. For me Adams' win is just another example of how progressive politicians and activists can be out of touch with those they proport to serve.

 

How this will play out in the Cleveland race remains to be seen because I don't think we have a candidate that's analogous to Adams. Kucinich's Cleveland Sign gimmick is tasteless as hell and I certainly wouldn't argue against calling it a racist dog whistle, and I'm no fan of Kucinich, but crime is going to be an issue in this election.

Edited by mu2010

I'd love to know the geographic breakdown of where these mailers went. I'd highly doubt his campaign mailed them to the areas most impacted by gun violence, and that would speak to his true intentions.

1 hour ago, mu2010 said:

The takeaway is that progressives can't just pretend crime doesn't exist, especially in the short run before more systemic solutions can be realized. For me Adams' win is just another example of how progressive politicians and activists can be out of touch with those they proport to serve.

 

Bingo

20 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

Bingo

 

Is that just progressive politicians and activists, though?  I think that politicians in general tend to hear from their most vocal constituents (when they aren't hearing from paid lobbyists).  Those activists are, by nature, the type of people who have some particular axe to grind and the lack of perspective to think that they speak for everyone.

58 minutes ago, X said:

 

Is that just progressive politicians and activists, though?  I think that politicians in general tend to hear from their most vocal constituents (when they aren't hearing from paid lobbyists).  Those activists are, by nature, the type of people who have some particular axe to grind and the lack of perspective to think that they speak for everyone.

 

Probably not the right forum for it - but you're right overall. 

 

I just tend to think Dems tend to forget what will rally people. They could do it with hope - i.e. increased access to jobs, healthcare, etc. and sometimes they do. But they always trip over "birthing parent" issues. 

 

The right does it well - but they choose to deal in fear and hate - and that's a whole different type of bad. 

 

Anyways. Bibb for Mayor. 

On 7/2/2021 at 10:50 PM, TheLand34 said:

While I don’t agree with the message or the use of the script logo, this is in line with the stuff Kucinich has done for years. After the default he marched down to Cleveland trust to close his account as a publicity stunt. He has the campaign strategies of a shock jock- it might look bad, but everyone’s talking about it 

 

That's why he was at his best as a Congressman from the minority party.   Grandstanding and constituent service are his forte.

23 hours ago, mu2010 said:

 

The NYC mayoral race was very interesting to follow in light of everything you're discussing here. They just finally projected the winner yesterday.

 

Eric Adams, a Black Democrat and former cop won the race by winning the Black vote and broadly the multi-racial working class vote. He didn't go for the very progressive or wealthier voters. He talked about crime a lot, while still talking about addressing police brutality and abuse. The two should not be mutually exclusive. (Though he supports stop-and-frisk which many liberals rightly despise).

 

The takeaway is that progressives can't just pretend crime doesn't exist, especially in the short run before more systemic solutions can be realized. For me Adams' win is just another example of how progressive politicians and activists can be out of touch with those they proport to serve.

 

How this will play out in the Cleveland race remains to be seen because I don't think we have a candidate that's analogous to Adams. Kucinich's Cleveland Sign gimmick is tasteless as hell and I certainly wouldn't argue against calling it a racist dog whistle, and I'm no fan of Kucinich, but crime is going to be an issue in this election.

 

We need a candidate analogous to Adams.   Zack says similar things, but he doesn't have the credibility of someone's who's had to deal with it on a day to day basis.   He still thinks jobs are the answer as well, even though much of the crime is committed by people too young to work full time.

"He's a Muslim.   That's what their faith teaches."

 

Genesis 3:16: 

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

 

Ephesians 5:22-33 ESV:

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands..

 

Ephesians 5:22-23 ESV 

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

 

Let's hope we don't get any Christian candidates then.

 

 

 

Edited by TBideon

On 7/6/2021 at 10:44 PM, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

 

 

Disgusting, distasteful, sickening, appalling and revolting to use such campaign tactics?  Absolutely without a doubt it is.  Shock tactics pulled right out of his playbook.  Will it cost him votes?  Don't know about that.  When one looks at the triple-digit homicide totals seven years in a row from 2014 to 2020 with 2021 certainly going to make it an eighth consecutive year with that sort of total.  From 2014 to 2020, the total almost doubled from 102 to 190 homicides.  That total of 190 per capita is greater than the 333 when the city had its all-time high of homicides in 1972.  There may be more than enough knee-jerk voters who won't look into his track record and history regardless of age, gender or race.  Those voters will look at the homicide totals, see how the crime and violence have affected how they live or know somebody who has fallen victim.  It could carry enough voters to decide the race.  The lack of digging further has happened before, gotten somebody elected and it should be very scary. 

 

Apparently, Dennis still thinks it's 1978.  When crime was worse, and much more random.   When law abiding citizens were far more likely to be victims.

Truth is, the bulk of homicide victims in the city are people who are already known to the criminal justice system, more often than not for offenses associated with gangs and the drug trade.

3 minutes ago, TBideon said:

"He's a Muslim.   That's what their faith teaches."

 

Genesis 3:16: 

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

 

Ephesians 5:22-33 ESV:

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands..

 

Ephesians 5:22-23 ESV 

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

 

Let's hope we don't get any Christian candidates then.

 

 

 

 

Adult converts tend to be more literal and more zealous.

The guy is a pig, but it's got nothing to do with his religion. That's just a false justification he clings on to like all those other bastard hypocrites.

24 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Adult converts tend to be more literal and more zealous.

 

Then why call out Muslims specifically?  Doesn't the same hold true of Christians?  You didn't call him out for being a zealous convert.  You called him out for being a Muslim, full stop.  And you called out the religion itself, too. 

 

Let's face it, all the Abrahamic religions are hideously misogynistic and violent.  It's only the fact that modern secular sensibilities have prevailed in most people's moral reckonings that the world has improved since the Middle Ages.

I retract my comment. It was too off topic and going down the religions route.  Mods feel free to delete.

Edited by cle_guy90

3 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Apparently, Dennis still thinks it's 1978.  When crime was worse, and much more random.   When law abiding citizens were far more likely to be victims.

Truth is, the bulk of homicide victims in the city are people who are already known to the criminal justice system, more often than not for offenses associated with gangs and the drug trade.

Sure, many of the homicide victims in Cleveland are hardened criminals who have been involved in violent crimes, robberies, drug dealing and other homicides.  However, there are many innocent victims who get caught in the crossfire or happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  They can be sitting in cars, waiting for a bus, driving along some road or in their own house.  They can be conducting their own legal business activities in their place of work or going into a legitimate business.  Those are the ones who suffer the ultimate consequences and whose families have incalculable losses.

 

What has made the matter far worse is that the current mayor has done nothing to address the problems and they have gotten much worse.  He has closely related family members that have problems with illegal activities.  He conducted an income tax increase campaign with the "promise" to hire more police officers.  That "promise" ended up being a play on words as the city needed to hire more police officers to deal with attrition.  I don't think there was ever any attempt to increase the size of the police department.

 

Unfortunately in this contest for mayor, there are current members of city council, including the city council president.  Where have they been the last several years on city council?  What have they done OF SUBSTANCE to push back against the inaction of Jackson?  Why haven't they banded together to force the police department to be expanded?  It will be interesting to hear of their plans to address the safety issues of residents and visitors.  They also need to be pressed on why they didn't do more while they have been serving on city council.

 

 

9 hours ago, X said:

 

Is that just progressive politicians and activists, though?  I think that politicians in general tend to hear from their most vocal constituents (when they aren't hearing from paid lobbyists).  Those activists are, by nature, the type of people who have some particular axe to grind and the lack of perspective to think that they speak for everyone.

 

Yeah I agree. Politicians like the Joe Bidens and the Eric Adams' of the world are downplayed and underrated by the intellegentsia, but actually their main political skill is being in touch enough with mainstream sensibilities to be able to see clearly through those echo chambers.

Edited by mu2010

On 7/8/2021 at 4:29 PM, LifeLongClevelander said:

Sure, many of the homicide victims in Cleveland are hardened criminals who have been involved in violent crimes, robberies, drug dealing and other homicides.  However, there are many innocent victims who get caught in the crossfire or happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  They can be sitting in cars, waiting for a bus, driving along some road or in their own house.  They can be conducting their own legal business activities in their place of work or going into a legitimate business.  Those are the ones who suffer the ultimate consequences and whose families have incalculable losses.

 

What has made the matter far worse is that the current mayor has done nothing to address the problems and they have gotten much worse.  He has closely related family members that have problems with illegal activities.  He conducted an income tax increase campaign with the "promise" to hire more police officers.  That "promise" ended up being a play on words as the city needed to hire more police officers to deal with attrition.  I don't think there was ever any attempt to increase the size of the police department.

 

Unfortunately in this contest for mayor, there are current members of city council, including the city council president.  Where have they been the last several years on city council?  What have they done OF SUBSTANCE to push back against the inaction of Jackson?  Why haven't they banded together to force the police department to be expanded?  It will be interesting to hear of their plans to address the safety issues of residents and visitors.  They also need to be pressed on why they didn't do more while they have been serving on city council.

 

 

 

I've stuck up, to a point, for some suburban mayors (Annette Blackwell in particular, but that's just because of where I'm from) for not doing more about crime because so much of it is being committed by juveniles and the municipalities have little to no power once the arrests are made.

The problem is the county courts, specifically juvenile court.   There, records are sealed.   That means judges cannot be held accountable by the parts of the electorate that want them to be tougher.   The friends and family, of the accused, on the other hand, know exactly which ones are soft touches and that's what they prefer.

Also, some politicians think jobs are a panacea.   Truth is, a lot of these kids are unemployable before they are old enough to be employed.

5 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

I've stuck up, to a point, for some suburban mayors (Annette Blackwell in particular, but that's just because of where I'm from) for not doing more about crime because so much of it is being committed by juveniles and the municipalities have little to no power once the arrests are made.

The problem is the county courts, specifically juvenile court.   There, records are sealed.   That means judges cannot be held accountable by the parts of the electorate that want them to be tougher.   The friends and family, of the accused, on the other hand, know exactly which ones are soft touches and that's what they prefer.

Also, some politicians think jobs are a panacea.   Truth is, a lot of these kids are unemployable before they are old enough to be employed.

The youth criminal activity is getting way out of hand.  These teenagers are playing the system as good as, if not better than adults.  Recently there was a case where a teenager who had been arrested and was awaiting trial for his actions.  He was able to play the system to get monitoring and in-house detention lifted all under the guise of "good behavior" and the need for going to school.  Not long after the restrictions were  lifted, he was back committing more crimes.  Carjackings, robberies and violent acts are being committed by kids who are barely teenagers at the ages of 13 or 14.  

 

Agree with you about them being unemployable.  How many will find a job, but won't bother to show up or use a job to enable other criminal activity.  And, it won't make a difference whatever minimum the minimum wage get set at. 

16 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

The youth criminal activity is getting way out of hand.  These teenagers are playing the system as good as, if not better than adults.  Recently there was a case where a teenager who had been arrested and was awaiting trial for his actions.  He was able to play the system to get monitoring and in-house detention lifted all under the guise of "good behavior" and the need for going to school.  Not long after the restrictions were  lifted, he was back committing more crimes.  Carjackings, robberies and violent acts are being committed by kids who are barely teenagers at the ages of 13 or 14.  

 

Agree with you about them being unemployable.  How many will find a job, but won't bother to show up or use a job to enable other criminal activity.  And, it won't make a difference whatever minimum the minimum wage get set at. 

 

When they get caught up in the gangs, they get steered towards doing the stuff that would get adults serious time.   The toxicity begins at that point.

 

The best solution may be camps downstate, intensive school and maybe farm work.   Regiment them so gangs and cliques don't form.   Build a work ethic.   It would need to be for some period of time, and politically might need to be with the okay of their parent(s).   But I wouldn't be too surprised if some overwhelmed single moms sign on.

You won't save them all, but maybe you save a core, that influences others including younger siblings.

32 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

When they get caught up in the gangs, they get steered towards doing the stuff that would get adults serious time.   The toxicity begins at that point.

 

The best solution may be camps downstate, intensive school and maybe farm work.   Regiment them so gangs and cliques don't form.   Build a work ethic.   It would need to be for some period of time, and politically might need to be with the okay of their parent(s).   But I wouldn't be too surprised if some overwhelmed single moms sign on.

You won't save them all, but maybe you save a core, that influences others including younger siblings.

As much as I agree that you have posed a possibly an excellent solution for a problem that is escalating out of control in the wrong direction, I feel that I already know how some will call it (I will leave it at that).  At least one of the mayoral candidates should add this to their campaigning platform.   It has to start somewhere.  If it doesn't, it won't be too long before there will be a spike in serious criminal activity by pre-teens.

Send children to isolated rural work camps far from their families or any outside adult oversight?  Can't see what might go wrong with that!

 

Seriously, this is a hideously bad idea that overlaps significantly on the "Awful Idea Venn Diagram" with ethnic cleansing tactics regularly used by the world's most repressive regimes.

1 hour ago, X said:

Send children to isolated rural work camps far from their families or any outside adult oversight?  Can't see what might go wrong with that!

 

Seriously, this is a hideously bad idea that overlaps significantly on the "Awful Idea Venn Diagram" with ethnic cleansing tactics regularly used by the world's most repressive regimes.

 

Where, exactly, did no "outside adult oversight" come from?

This is a hideously bad misrepresentation that overlaps significantly on the "Strawmen Venn Diagram" with the some of the accusations made against the right vis a vis June 6.

Who do you imagine is going to regiment them so gangs and cliques don't form?

45 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Where, exactly, did no "outside adult oversight" come from?

This is a hideously bad misrepresentation that overlaps significantly on the "Strawmen Venn Diagram" with the some of the accusations made against the right vis a vis June 6.

Who do you imagine is going to regiment them so gangs and cliques don't form?

Based upon how youth problems are getting worse, there isn't much in the way of "adult oversight" in their lives now.  For many of the ones causing trouble, the only "adult oversight" they are receiving is steering them in the wrong direction.  This may be the sort of "adult oversight" that straightens at least some them out. 

 

Enough with the punishments amounting to no more than a scolding of "don't do it again".  They get shown so much leniency now and the opportunities to commit felonies then getting released just to do it all over again.  It is a never-ending cycle that shows the current system is a massive failure.   

Edited by LifeLongClevelander

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

 

Where, exactly, did no "outside adult oversight" come from?

This is a hideously bad misrepresentation that overlaps significantly on the "Strawmen Venn Diagram" with the some of the accusations made against the right vis a vis June 6.

Who do you imagine is going to regiment them so gangs and cliques don't form?

 

"Outside" = outside of the camp's organizational heirarchy.  Someone not on the payroll or otherwise beholden to whatever organization is running the camp.

10 hours ago, X said:

 

"Outside" = outside of the camp's organizational heirarchy.  Someone not on the payroll or otherwise beholden to whatever organization is running the camp.

 

Outside oversight of the camp structure itself?  Certainly a must.  Keeping the kids safe and preventing exploitation must be top priorities.

 

But I don’t see how we can get the kids out of the cycle without diverting them from it.

 

Will we save them all?  No.  Enough to make a difference and establish a core?   Probably.

Do you at least understand why people aren't going to be keen on the idea of separating children from their families in order to instill some sort of a different culture in them?  This is not a new idea, it's a very old one, with a very bad history. Including here in North America.

 

I'm trying to give you some benefit of the doubt here, but the fact that you tied your defense of this idea to a a defense of a violent insurrection by a bunch of white supremacists, Neo-Nazis, and their fellow travelers makes me think that I shouldn't.

I think Kevin Kelley still holds the edge in mayor's race.  He's got name recognition, experience and relationships across public & private sector as well as local democratic party.

Just received a fundraising email from Justin Bibb reminding that the election is 2 months from today (September 14).  

Will any local media invest in polling?   Has anyone seen one?  

 

 

3 hours ago, X said:

Do you at least understand why people aren't going to be keen on the idea of separating children from their families in order to instill some sort of a different culture in them?  This is not a new idea, it's a very old one, with a very bad history. Including here in North America.

 

I'm trying to give you some benefit of the doubt here, but the fact that you tied your defense of this idea to a a defense of a violent insurrection by a bunch of white supremacists, Neo-Nazis, and their fellow travelers makes me think that I shouldn't.

 

Now I’m not talking about taking kids away from their families at random.

 

I’m talking about kids who are already showing strong signs of being absorbed by a highly toxic subculture.  Kids who are on the road to being deceased, incarcerated, or at best unemployable by the age of 30.

 

Kids who might be young enough to save.  At least to start, whose parents or guardians think this might be worth a shot.

 

It’s wrong to try to absorb them into our culture?  The culture that every successful ethnic, racial, and religious group in our history has bought into?   There we differ, I guess.

 

The irony is progressives want to stereotype conservatives as people willing to write them off.  Yes, in some cases that’s true.

 

But leaving status quo intact is doing precisely that as well.  It's not working, and that's putting it mildly.

 

I’d rather save some of them, and then more….

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