I typed in "Fifth and Race Tower" into google images haha. It's the first one that shows up. It was the specific image I was looking for since it shows exactly what you just said. It was designed as a building to be experienced from the skywalk level.

I took a few photos of the wrecking ball taking pieces out of it in the summer of 1999.  I'll dig them up sometime. 

 

The nondescript building at the SW corner of 5th & Elm is also a temporary skywalk-specific building that has been around for decades because the larger lot was never developed.  580, Debois Tower, 525 Vine, Mercantile Arcade, etc were all built with second-floor lobbies as part of the skywalk system.   

The nondescript building at the SW corner of 5th & Elm is also a temporary skywalk-specific building that has been around for decades because the larger lot was never developed.  580, Debois Tower, 525 Vine, Mercantile Arcade, etc were all built with second-floor lobbies as part of the skywalk system.   

 

One of the strangest places downtown.

 

So that's why that terrible pocket park nobody has every used and that weird elevated walkway exist. The original intention was to have a larger building with a more fleshed out second floor lobby occupying that site.

 

I'd still like to see that (don't particularly care much about the sky lobby part, but whatever) since that corner building is god awful and that pocket park is insulting. And no good businesses occupy that building. That corner has been host to some of the worst bars/night clubs around and there seems to be a revolving door for businesses that occupy it.

It might sound strange but when all of this stuff was new they got a lot of use because there were a lot more people downtown all the time.  There were many, many independent stores of all kinds all over downtown in addition to 3 or 4 big department stores.  Housewives came downtown during the week to shop and run errands.  So stuff like this was actually used. 

 

I don't think despite the new hotels and restaurants, that the crackle of excitement is really there in DT Cincinnati that was once there because there isn't the wide array of things going on that once were.  When you go to Manhattan today, the street is more exciting because the 100 people walking on your block are doing 100 different things.  In Cincinnati they're typically doing 3 or 4 different things.   

I wonder what that food court was like.

It might sound strange but when all of this stuff was new they got a lot of use because there were a lot more people downtown all the time.  There were many, many independent stores of all kinds all over downtown in addition to 3 or 4 big department stores.  Housewives came downtown during the week to shop and run errands.  So stuff like this was actually used. 

 

I don't think despite the new hotels and restaurants, that the crackle of excitement is really there in DT Cincinnati that was once there because there isn't the wide array of things going on that once were.  When you go to Manhattan today, the street is more exciting because the 100 people walking on your block are doing 100 different things.  In Cincinnati they're typically doing 3 or 4 different things. 

 

I've been looking at all the old CINCINNATI magazines that GOOGLE Books has on line recently and it is crazy full of ads in the 70's and 80's for little privately owned stores that just dont exist anymore. They either went out of business or just cashed out & didnt bother relocating when their block of the city was redeveloped. Plus there were tons of ads for the new suburban office and manufacturing parks trying to lure the little manufacturers and the smaller business out. Looking back at it now the downturn of the city in the 80's and 90's makes sense. THere was also a weird vibe in the articles of the city being for the big players and companies and the little folks getting in the way of us turning into a 'world class city'. Also funny to read all the love for the skywalk and all the new buildings that connected to it as if the ground was made of lava and filled with hobos and the skywalk was where the classy well to do people  walked in the clouds above it all.

 

I typed in "Fifth and Race Tower" into google images haha. It's the first one that shows up. It was the specific image I was looking for since it shows exactly what you just said. It was designed as a building to be experienced from the skywalk level.

 

Ha. Silly me. Guess I never actually did that!

 

I took a few photos of the wrecking ball taking pieces out of it in the summer of 1999.  I'll dig them up sometime. 

 

The nondescript building at the SW corner of 5th & Elm is also a temporary skywalk-specific building that has been around for decades because the larger lot was never developed.  580, Debois Tower, 525 Vine, Mercantile Arcade, etc were all built with second-floor lobbies as part of the skywalk system.   

 

I'd love to see those! Post them this weekend! ;)

 

I wonder what that food court was like.

 

I only vaguely remember it. BK stood out to me because I do remember eating there. And Walgreens.

 

 

 

 

I heard from someone (who works at City Hall) that this building is on their list to be replaced. With what or when, I have no idea.

Wait, which building? The one at the SW corner of 5th/Elm? That would be a great location for a new residential tower. The Millennium Hotel could be redeveloped into two residential towers as well, the buildings could be completely reclad, the skywalks could be removed, and the ground levels could be redesigned to activate the sidewalk, and the giant lot between 4th and 5th on Plum could be turned into a duel-tower convention hotel like the Mallory administration was trying to get done.

Yeah the SW corner of 5th and Elm. The one with Level Night Club and Jimmy G's.

There are rumors of the Convention Center expanding into that block south, bridging over 5th street to create an 'L' shaped building. That along with taking over the crumbling Millienium hotel are the two most likely next moves for them, since the Brent Spence re-working isn't likely to open up land to the west any time soon.

 

I'd love to see those! Post them this weekend! ;)

 

I wonder what that food court was like.

 

I only vaguely remember it. BK stood out to me because I do remember eating there. And Walgreens.

 

No I won't get around to digging into that stuff until I'm either laid off again or am sitting on the couch recovering from an injury for a month.  Also, people forget how expensive film and processing was.  It was around 25-40 cents per shot.  So I wish I had taken a lot more of this stuff.  Downtown was totally dead at that time so you didn't have to wait long to have zero people in a photo. 

 

There are rumors of the Convention Center expanding into that block south, bridging over 5th street to create an 'L' shaped building. That along with taking over the crumbling Millienium hotel are the two most likely next moves for them, since the Brent Spence re-working isn't likely to open up land to the west any time soon.

 

Well I don't see how they could continue the main hall without having 5th St. dip down like it was traveling under a railroad bridge.  And there are conflicting reports as to whether the convention business is growing or declining nationwide, and so I have no idea why this conversation is even taking place. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^ Nerd conventions = way up. Most others = down.

I stopped in at the closing Wendy's today for a Frosty... Employees were told that the landlord was not renewing their lease, or the lease of Walgreen's. Skyline however was safe.

 

Rumors...

I stopped in at the closing Wendy's today for a Frosty... Employees were told that the landlord was not renewing their lease, or the lease of Walgreen's. Skyline however was safe.

 

Rumors...

 

I'd be more inclined to believe a new office tower or other development was going to replace the garage if the garage hadn't just been expanded about five years ago.  There was a small landscaped lot where the Walgreen's and garage above it is now for 30 or more years.  I think the Wendy's garage opened around 1982. 

 

Obviously this is some of the most valuable real estate in the city, so perhaps we will see something less than 10 years old torn down. 

 

 

 

More parcels being bought by investors with no clear plan on Court Street. Does anyone know what's going on here? I'd hate for them to raze the block, even if it meant a grocery store.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/06/23/group-of-anonymous-investors-buys-more-property.html

More parcels being bought by investors with no clear plan on Court Street. Does anyone know what's going on here? I'd hate for them to raze the block, even if it meant a grocery store.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/06/23/group-of-anonymous-investors-buys-more-property.html

 

I think there is a Court Street Historic District that would protect those.  I think the grocery would go either on the lot on the corner of Walnut and Central or else across Central Parkway where the unused non-historic CMHA building is now. I would think that these guys are just trying to cash in on proximity to the potential grocery (and streetcar and OTR.)

 

I would think these historic buildings are safe but dumber things have happened in Cincinnati!

The ramshackle rear addition to the one at the SE corner of Vine and Court was demolished about two weeks ago.  This is the building closest to the library.  If they could put a small restaurant or bar in the building, a rear patio would be visible from Vine. 

I think the buildings on Court are pretty safe because the depth of those parcels is only 70' which would make it very hard to do a garage or any large footprint project.

I was talking to a developer the other day who has mostly focused on OTR but says he's now interested in developing more in the CBD. It's totally bizarre how we are seeing so many major developments moving forward in OTR, but Downtown is full of underutilized buildings, vacant storefronts, and parking lots. Court Street would be a really logical place for a developer to make the jump across Central Parkway and into the CBD.

 

To me, this OTR/CBD divide really illustrates the importane of the overall character of the neighborhood. In OTR, you have so many nice, human-scaled streetscapes and public places like Washington Park that make the neighborhood really attractive to businesses and residents. Court Street still has some nice older buildings that can be rehabed, but the scale is really destroyed by a few massive, ugly buildings like the former Cincinnati Post office and the Kroger Building, not to mention all the parking lots. The angled parking in the middle of the street also needs to be removed and replaced by green space or a nice public plaza. Of course, Dusty Rhodes would complain that removing the angled parking is part of the City of Cincinnati's War on Cars!

I would love to see a market go back in the central parking area. I think it could be a flagship for modern urban markets for Kroger, right at the foot of their headquarters.

 

 

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I was talking to a developer the other day who has mostly focused on OTR but says he's now interested in developing more in the CBD. It's totally bizarre how we are seeing so many major developments moving forward in OTR, but Downtown is full of underutilized buildings, vacant storefronts, and parking lots. Court Street would be a really logical place for a developer to make the jump across Central Parkway and into the CBD.

 

To me, this OTR/CBD divide really illustrates the importane of the overall character of the neighborhood. In OTR, you have so many nice, human-scaled streetscapes and public places like Washington Park that make the neighborhood really attractive to businesses and residents. Court Street still has some nice older buildings that can be rehabed, but the scale is really destroyed by a few massive, ugly buildings like the former Cincinnati Post office and the Kroger Building, not to mention all the parking lots. The angled parking in the middle of the street also needs to be removed and replaced by green space or a nice public plaza. Of course, Dusty Rhodes would complain that removing the angled parking is part of the City of Cincinnati's War on Cars!

 

"Dusty Rhodes would complain"... is pretty much a given, regardless of the policy idea! The guy complains about everything. Earlier this week, he was whining about the NBA playing basketball indoors in the summer:

I would love to see a market go back in the central parking area. I think it could be a flagship for modern urban markets for Kroger, right at the foot of their headquarters.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think it is still technically a market.  There were 1 or 2 booths that still set up a few days per week when I worked downtown 2007-2009. 

 

 

I was talking to a developer the other day who has mostly focused on OTR but says he's now interested in developing more in the CBD. It's totally bizarre how we are seeing so many major developments moving forward in OTR, but Downtown is full of underutilized buildings, vacant storefronts, and parking lots. Court Street would be a really logical place for a developer to make the jump across Central Parkway and into the CBD.

 

To me, this OTR/CBD divide really illustrates the importane of the overall character of the neighborhood. In OTR, you have so many nice, human-scaled streetscapes and public places like Washington Park that make the neighborhood really attractive to businesses and residents. Court Street still has some nice older buildings that can be rehabed, but the scale is really destroyed by a few massive, ugly buildings like the former Cincinnati Post office and the Kroger Building, not to mention all the parking lots. The angled parking in the middle of the street also needs to be removed and replaced by green space or a nice public plaza. Of course, Dusty Rhodes would complain that removing the angled parking is part of the City of Cincinnati's War on Cars!

 

"Dusty Rhodes would complain"... is pretty much a given, regardless of the policy idea! The guy complains about everything. Earlier this week, he was whining about the NBA playing basketball indoors in the summer:

 

He doesn't want anything getting in the way of the "American Dream"!

 

Remember a couple years ago when they tried to have those college basketball games on an aircraft carrier and they had to cancel it after a few minutes when the court got covered dew and fog? Everybody was sliding all over the place and people were going to get hurt.

I would love to see a market go back in the central parking area. I think it could be a flagship for modern urban markets for Kroger, right at the foot of their headquarters.

 

 

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I think it is still technically a market.  There were 1 or 2 booths that still set up a few days per week when I worked downtown 2007-2009.

 

What I mean is to rebuild a structure that sits in the middle of the street (where cars are now parked). The original was not as beautiful as 6th street Market, but making some kind of modern version of this would be awesome. It probably wouldn't function as Findlay does with separate vendors and probably not a farmer's market, but rather as an urban grocery store with a classic feel. However, this would never happen since Kroger seems to only think about building mega stores.

 

Like the Dean and Deluca in Georgetown, but modern.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Washington,+DC/@38.9051671,-77.0651766,3a,60y,177.8h,89.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suI21GLIpOejm77dHGFqFsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b7c6de5af6e45b:0xc2524522d4885d2a!8m2!3d38.9071923!4d-77.0368707!6m1!1e1

The old market reminds me of a Bonanza buffet!

The old market reminds me of a Bonanza buffet!

 

There was that Ponderosa out by Eastgate that became a Mexican restaurant...and they kept the Western scene on the front façade!

 

I think it is still technically a market.  There were 1 or 2 booths that still set up a few days per week when I worked downtown 2007-2009. 

 

I remember those booths, and I also remember when the current streetscape was constructed. As far as I can tell, the Court Street Market was specifically designed with street vendors in mind, but there just aren't very many vendors.

 

Man that would be incredibly unique and special if they did end up building a grocery in the middle of Court Street like that.

Man that would be incredibly unique and special if they did end up building a grocery in the middle of Court Street like that.

 

But to argue with myself- part of the appeal of a modern grocery store over Findlay Market is convenience and space to move around. Sometimes Findlay Market is just too much to deal with. I wonder if a long narrow Kroger shaped like that would get too crowded to use efficiently.

The Dean and Deluca in Georgetown is on the smaller end, but its not terrible to move around. A modern version could even have 1-3 floors to space things out a bit. Urban grocery stores don't need giant spaces to fit a huge Costco-sized shopping cart. They just need enough space to stock all of the essentials and then maybe some specialty items. I lived above an Amish Market in NY and it was small, but literally had everything I needed and it was not cramped. That Amish Market is only a fraction of the footprint of the Court Street parking area. They had hardware, cleaning supplies, dry goods, fresh meats, canned goods, etc, and even had pre-made food that could be picked up after work for a quick dinner or sandwiches that could be ordered from a counter. If all of that can fit into this Amish Market comfortably, it can most definitely been done at this location.

For size comparison:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7138421,-74.0105848,3a,75y,70.16h,88.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfBJgQBBavjhEjcyxJIzWeA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I just measured - the Court Street median is about 45 feet across and 360 ft long. This would be about the size of Vine St. OTR Kroger. But if it was two or three stories tall it would be significantly larger!

The Dean and Deluca in Georgetown is on the smaller end, but its not terrible to move around. A modern version could even have 1-3 floors to space things out a bit. Urban grocery stores don't need giant spaces to fit a huge Costco-sized shopping cart. They just need enough space to stock all of the essentials and then maybe some specialty items. I lived above an Amish Market in NY and it was small, but literally had everything I needed and it was not cramped. That Amish Market is only a fraction of the footprint of the Court Street parking area. They had hardware, cleaning supplies, dry goods, fresh meats, canned goods, etc, and even had pre-made food that could be picked up after work for a quick dinner or sandwiches that could be ordered from a counter. If all of that can fit into this Amish Market comfortably, it can most definitely been done at this location.

For size comparison:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7138421,-74.0105848,3a,75y,70.16h,88.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfBJgQBBavjhEjcyxJIzWeA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

The grocery store closest to my new place in Brooklyn is the Pioneer Market directly next to the Parkside stop on the Q. It has a 10,000ish square foot footprint that's oddly shaped and yet packs significantly more variety into its aisles versus the 15,000 square foot OTR Kroger that I did all my shopping at. A big part of that comes from the fact that the aisles are way tighter and there are probably twice as many as in Kroger and they're significantly taller and the product is packed in tighter. That and the cart area is outside on the sidewalk and the entry/exit areas can fit about 4 people total.

Here's the 6th street market which had at least 2 levels it seems from the picture:

 

I think the placement of a downtown grocery store could be used to revitalize Court Street storefronts and drive all-hours foot traffic to revive retail there.  I made some diagrams of potential store placements and the potential foot traffic patterns along each.

 

The first two are the SE and SW corners of Walnut and Central respectively.  The SE corner has been rumored for a residential tower/grocery combo.  The SW corner shows the Monro Tire and Brakes next to Kroger HQ being replaced with a store.  These could drive some traffic to Court Street by utilizing the median parking: 

 

 

 

The next one is building a long, narrow store in the Court Street median as we were discussing Friday afternoon.  This is the most unconventional design but may succeed the most in driving the most foot traffic to Court Street:

 

 

Finally there's the Chinedum Ndukwe proposals to build a grocery in the old CMHA site.  This one wouldn't do much for Court Street but would be closer for foot traffic from OTR (especially if they had access via alley from 12th Street): 

 

 

There is construction occurring inside the corner retail area of the Mabley Place garage. The leasing sign is out of the window and it looks like there is a lot of activity on the inside. Has anyone heard what is going in here? I'll take a picture later and post.

 

 

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Does anyone know what's going into the old Brooks Brothers store across from

Fountain Square? 

Isn't that where the bookstore has been for several years now?

Ah!  I'm sorry, the Jos A. Banks!  Sorry for the confusion. Did I miss something announced for that space?

Jos. A Bank closed rather abruptly, but it looks like work on something new is already starting. I believe it is going to be a bank branch, but could be wrong.

Yeah I noticed that too.  Essentially one day it shut it's doors and demo work is already proceeding.  It would make sense for a bank branch to go in there, although I was optimistic it would remain more retail oriented. 

Yeah I noticed that too.  Essentially one day it shut it's doors and demo work is already proceeding.  It would make sense for a bank branch to go in there, although I was optimistic it would remain more retail oriented. 

 

When I heard Joseph A. Bank was going in, I thought it was a bank. 

 

That's a shame that Joseph A. Bank closed.  With them and Brooks Brothers gone, that little stretch of Vine has really lost most of its traditional retail base.  We are slowly seeing the retail that Downtown managed to hang on to/lure in the first place against all odds disappear, and that's worrisome for me.  In recent memory, we've lost TJ Maxx, Brooks Brothers, Joseph A Bank, all of the Tower Place retailers (those that were left), Macy's has downsized...It just doesn't seem like we're on a good trajectory here.  If Saks leaves (probably IMO) and Macy's leaves (definite possibility IMO), we will really be in a bad place with downtown retail.

Yep. Bad and getting worse in terms of retail particularly in the downtown corridor.  They need a big win of sorts, either something new or a remodel of the Macy's etc to stimulate some other growth.

 

On another note, Jos. A. Banks said they were closing 130+ stores across the country, so again I also think it's a shift in regular retail habits of shoppers as opposed to just Cincinnati.  Retail everywhere is struggling to keep up with the shift in shopping demographic preferences.

65,000+ workers downtown everyday and we can't figure out how to get them to shop downtown.

 

Pathetic.

A couple of things:

 

1.) Add more residents - Live, work, play, shop...

 

2.) To generate more interest in developers, try to get a grocery store downtown... They really need this, not sure if a chicken or egg thing, but we need a full service grocery store downtown to lure more development and residents

 

If we can add 5,000 more full time residents in the basin in the next 5 years, I think we are in good shape.  That's a lot, but we need it to support retail.  Obviously more on top of that is a bonus.  DCI reported approximately 1,000 residential units under construction on April 2016. 

In order to keep stores, people need to be raising entire families in urban areas, not just having that first kid there then bolting for the 'burbs when the kid turns 5. Kids and teens force people to spend money on possessions rather than spending it all on nights out.

A couple of things:

 

1.) Add more residents - Live, work, play, shop...

 

2.) To generate more interest in developers, try to get a grocery store downtown... They really need this, not sure if a chicken or egg thing, but we need a full service grocery store downtown to lure more development and residents

 

If we can add 5,000 more full time residents in the basin in the next 5 years, I think we are in good shape.  That's a lot, but we need it to support retail.  Obviously more on top of that is a bonus.  DCI reported approximately 1,000 residential units under construction on April 2016. 

 

Definitely agree on the need for downtown residents. If we built three 30 story towers in the next year we still would be nowhere near peak saturation for downtown residential demand.