There have been speculative plans made behind the scenes to have the Millennium towers torn down and the Convention Center expanded across Elm St. and onto the Millennium property.  Elm St. would dip under the expanded exhibition hall.  Perhaps a new convention hotel would be built as part of the expansion into the current Millennium property or it would be built on a nearby parking lot. 

There have been speculative plans made behind the scenes to have the Millennium towers torn down and the Convention Center expanded across Elm St. and onto the Millennium property.  Elm St. would dip under the expanded exhibition hall.  Perhaps a new convention hotel would be built as part of the expansion into the current Millennium property or it would be built on a nearby parking lot.

 

I really hope that is underway, that is a brilliant plan. Expanding westward over the expressway seemed like an impossible and impractical way forward.

 

Someone I know who works in City Hall said that the building that houses Level night club and Jimmy G's will be torn down eventually. If they plan to expand across Elm and take out the hotel (hopefully), then I imagine in the place of this building and the parking lot they could build a new, large, convention center sized hotel.

I'd really hate to see buildings that occupy the skyline, even if they are the Millennium, replaced with convention center expansion which is short, lifeless at street level, and would be EXTRA awful if Elm had to dip under it. That's an atrocious plan for that area. You're basically committing to that area being awful for the pedestrian forever.

 

The convention center needs to expand west, regardless of practicality. That direction doesn't inhibit pedestrian movement like expanding over Elm would.

 

The Millennium needs to be sold and fully renovated into residential and new convention center hotel towers built on the 5th and Plum lot. That makes the most sense and enhances the pedestrian experience in the area.

There have been speculative plans made behind the scenes to have the Millennium towers torn down and the Convention Center expanded across Elm St. and onto the Millennium property.  Elm St. would dip under the expanded exhibition hall.  Perhaps a new convention hotel would be built as part of the expansion into the current Millennium property or it would be built on a nearby parking lot.

 

I really hope that is underway, that is a brilliant plan. Expanding westward over the expressway seemed like an impossible and impractical way forward.

 

 

When that was proposed back in 2002 or whenever it was assumed that the Brent Spence Bridge project would have been underway by 2005.  They've been waiting this whole time for the land to free up.  The fact that they slapped the union terminal murals onto the west wall along Central Ave. and not the interior concourse signals that any expansion is going to head south or east.  My source for that info re: the Elm St. underpass was a Mallory-era city hall employee.  I don't think that they had actually made any drawings but the conversation certainly took place in a meeting or meetings. 

 

My pre-streetcar hunch has been affirmed by its physical existence that priority in expanding the system should be in Downtown itself, not expanding to the west end or Uptown.  In my opinion the system should be expanded with tracks on Elm and Race downtown traveling in-line with the existing Over-the-Rhine tracks south to The Banks.  The Elm/Race and Second St. turnaround would mirror what exists on Main/Walnut.  This brings convention center guests into the service range of the streetcar and doubles down on Findlay Market as an entertainment destination area.  This expansion would cost about $50 million -- $20 million for five new streetcars and about $30 million for track, utility relocation, and systems.

 

 

 

Elm St already is dead other then people going to or leaving the convention center.  Tear down the Millennium and expand the convention center east so that is butts up against 84.51 building.  That part of Race is already crowded with the popular restaurants in their building and it's just a block away from Fountain Square.  Build a new hotel on the surface lot across 5th St.  There's no way you're going to be able to expand the convention center west with that mess of highway and bridge ramps.

Elm St already is dead other then people going to or leaving the convention center.  Tear down the Millennium and expand the convention center east so that is butts up against 84.51 building.  That part of Race is already crowded with the popular restaurants in their building and it's just a block away from Fountain Square.  Build a new hotel on the surface lot across 5th St.  There's no way you're going to be able to expand the convention center west with that mess of highway and bridge ramps.

 

It would be very naive to believe that the plethora of garages surrounding the convention center that are all nearing the ends of their lives won't be utilized for mixed use developments as has been happening all around the CBD as garages are replaced. Elm Street could very quickly go from dead to quite active with only a handful of these types of projects.

 

Purposefully designing Elm Street to be impossible to cater to the pedestrian is a mistake. A very valuable one at that.

The Whex Garage at 212 W 4th Street is being sold from the city to 3CDC for "future economic development". (Can be found in the latest CPC packet http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/jan-20-2017-packet/ )

 

That garage spans the entire block from 4th to 5th and backs up to the Convention Center as well.

The urban forms of big things like convention centers are walkability killers. Why was it decided that convention centers have to be one use? It would be great to get some liner retail/ corner activation to help increase the amount of destinations on that block. Residential above would be ideal, but likey impossible.

 

Surrounding blocks would then be able to follow suit.

There's no way you're going to be able to expand the convention center west with that mess of highway and bridge ramps.

 

Those ramps will be pushed west when the new BSB is built. You will gain about a half-block of space where the Convention Center can be expanded. Sinking Elm Street down to run under the Convention Center would be a huge mistake. Even if we could keep Elm Street at ground level and float the convention center above, it would result in a dark, pedestrian-hostile place that people would go out of their way to avoid. Here's an example from Detroit of what it would end up looking like.

You guys are making good arguments both ways. I think of the KY International space in Louisville that kept Third Street (?) at ground level and uses it as a passenger/valet area and main entrance. I've used that many times as a pass through from hotel to event.  It is dark but seemed active.

Count me in as firmly against any plan to sink Elm Street to expand the convention center. It seems like an expensive and gimmicky move that would be the type of thing cities did during the "urban renewal" era which we are now trying to undo. I do think it would form a mental barrier for pedestrians.

 

Putting aside competition and politician egos, what would be better for the downtown economy as a whole: a larger Cincinnati convention center, or an expanded NKY convention center just over the river in Covington? Would being able to host two medium sized conventions at once be a more robust model for hotels, tourism, and restaurants than holding one large convention?

 

I can see some advantages to a two convention center model over going all out for big conventions. Booking: not locked in an arms race with deep pocket cities trying to provide latest amenities to land big conventions. Less susceptible to changes in market for big conventions. Scheduling: continuous activity for hotels bars and restaurants as opposed to everyone arriving and leaving in town at once. Business: people and dollars are spread out over a wider area as opposed to dominating one part of town. (A larger NKY convention center could be great news for the Banks for example.)

 

You guys are making good arguments both ways. I think of the KY International space in Louisville that kept Third Street (?) at ground level and uses it as a passenger/valet area and main entrance. I've used that many times as a pass through from hotel to event.  It is dark but seemed active.

 

The Kentucky International Convention Center in Louisville is removing that tunnel as part of their rebuilding efforts: http://www.kyconvention.org/images/Expansion/Site%20Plan.pdf. Basically, the original 1977 site is being removed and the 2000 site is being redesigned. The unique overhead truss system is being kept. There will be a giant exhibition hall in the center to replace the one at the fairgrounds south of the city.

 

 

 

 

Pictures and a bit of background of the center: http://www.kyconvention.org/PressReleases/Capital%20Planning%20Advisory%20Board%20Meeting%20Expansion%20Powerpoint.pdf

If the Convention Center is about to undertake a big capital program, they should design it so that the main exhibition space is on a higher level (basically like the 3rd floor). You could still have some meeting space and other facilities on the ground level, but you would go up an escalator to reach the main convention space. They could even have some exterior retail spaces on the ground level so that it feels like a mixed use development rather than a single-use big box. The missing block of Plum Street could be reconstructed with the main exhibition hall floating above. (Although it's not ideal for pedestrians, it's better than the street not existing at all.) Then, they could also have the option of expanding across Central Avenue into the new space that will be freed up with the BSB ramps are removed.

Sherman Cahal[/member]. Thanks. Had no idea.

If the Convention Center is about to undertake a big capital program, they should design it so that the main exhibition space is on a higher level (basically like the 3rd floor). You could still have some meeting space and other facilities on the ground level, but you would go up an escalator to reach the main convention space. They could even have some exterior retail spaces on the ground level so that it feels like a mixed use development rather than a single-use big box. The missing block of Plum Street could be reconstructed with the main exhibition hall floating above. (Although it's not ideal for pedestrians, it's better than the street not existing at all.) Then, they could also have the option of expanding across Central Avenue into the new space that will be freed up with the BSB ramps are removed.

 

Not possible without rebuilding the whole thing. 

 

When you look at the current convention center on google earth, it's readily apparent how much of what is under roof is just the 800-foot concourse along 5th and the shorter one along Elm, and then the loading dock area off of 6th.  The loading dock area creates a sort of L-shape inside full exhibition hall, shaped like a tetris piece, but with a lower ceiling in the part that stems off.  I'm not sure quite what Cincinnati would be chasing by building a new convention center elsewhere or just building onto the current one.  If the current center were to be expanded and start to attract big-time conventions at the expense of gymnastics and cheerleading meets, I'm not sure that citizens or city coffers really gain anything. 

 

 

If the Convention Center is about to undertake a big capital program, they should design it so that the main exhibition space is on a higher level (basically like the 3rd floor). You could still have some meeting space and other facilities on the ground level, but you would go up an escalator to reach the main convention space. They could even have some exterior retail spaces on the ground level so that it feels like a mixed use development rather than a single-use big box. The missing block of Plum Street could be reconstructed with the main exhibition hall floating above. (Although it's not ideal for pedestrians, it's better than the street not existing at all.) Then, they could also have the option of expanding across Central Avenue into the new space that will be freed up with the BSB ramps are removed.

 

Not possible without rebuilding the whole thing. 

 

When you look at the current convention center on google earth, it's readily apparent how much of what is under roof is just the 800-foot concourse along 5th and the shorter one along Elm, and then the loading dock area off of 6th.  The loading dock area creates a sort of L-shape inside full exhibition hall, shaped like a tetris piece, but with a lower ceiling in the part that stems off.  I'm not sure quite what Cincinnati would be chasing by building a new convention center elsewhere or just building onto the current one.  If the current center were to be expanded and start to attract big-time conventions at the expense of gymnastics and cheerleading meets, I'm not sure that citizens or city coffers really gain anything.

 

Why can't they do both?  Also if you want the convention center expansion to wait until the new bridge is built you're talking about another decade or two, if not more.

Does anyone know what's going on in the Gidding-Jenny building (former TJ Maxx) on 4th street? There's new window stickers claiming some kind of fashion studio and there have been people tooling around inside

Glad to see more activity coming to Court St:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/01/27/planned-downtown-lobster-bar-changes-name-to-avoid.html

Introducing Crane Watch Cincinnati

Mar 6, 2017, 9:34am EST

Tom Demeropolis

Senior Staff Reporter

Cincinnati Business Courier

 

With the city of Cincinnati leading a renaissance in the region, the Business Courier has launched Crane Watch to keep track of all of the development and construction taking place.

 

This interactive development map allows users to see all of the activity taking place in the city from the Banks all the way to Uptown along the Interstate 71 corridor.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/03/06/introducing-crane-watch-cincinnati.html

Foreclosed:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/03/16/one-of-downtown-cincinnati-s-largest-office-towers.html

If the owner can't make a profit on a building that is 90% leased they have no business owning the property

^Maybe some other aspect of their business went bust. 

^ You are probably right. There was probably deterioration in other parts of the portfolio and cross collateralization of the properties. Also, key leases coming up with CapX improvements didn't help either.

The thought of owning a large office building long-term is terrifying.  Nobody has $200~ million sitting around to buy the thing outright with cash, and over time the coming and going of tenants creates an inefficient fragmentation of the space.  De-fragging a 30-floor office building is a bit more complicated than de-fragging a hard drive.  I remember when my dad worked downtown in the 80s that his company rented half of one floor and half of another and there was no physical partition between either company on either floor. 

I forget, but I thought that building last sold in the 60-70 million range? I could be wrong though. Typically Cincy office buildings without GE logos on them dont command 200 million price tags.  These buildings are not meant to be owned for long periods of time and never held outright. Most of leverage plays financed by life insurance companies who like a "stable" asset secured by real estate. Class A office typically fits that mold. Typical hold time is 5-7 years when the investors can then cash out.

 

This building especially has always been well leased so it was weird to hear it go into foreclosure. I would have been less surprised if this were say the URS building or Center at 600 Vine, or even the Huntington Building or Carew.

 

As you mentioned earlier, this was probably due to some deterioration in other areas of the owners portfolio that caused this and maybe not the building itself. I was at a real estate market roundtable the other week, and the lenders on the committee pretty much said everything without the word Mall in its name was typically performing well lately. Malls  and big box retail on the other hand are starting to become toxic.

Here's how much the population has grown in Cincinnati's urban core

 

The population of Cincinnati’s urban core increased more than 11 percent in 2016, according to a new compilation of data about the city’s basin released by Downtown Cincinnati Inc.

 

 

There are a few other interesting bits of data in this article. One is that fact that "slightly fewer people walk to work – 21 percent in 2016 compared with 22 percent in 2015." Anecdotally, I have noticed that a lot of people who live in OTR and Pendleton still have to drive to jobs in the burbs. It's unfortunate that some corporations are leaving downtown and moving to the burbs right when younger works are leaving the burbs and moving downtown. It's also a shame we don't have quality transit linking these suburban jobs to downtown, so all these new downtown residents are forced to keep their cars. (Bus options are very limited for people doing a reverse commute in Cincinnati.)

11% growth is pretty impressive. At the rate it's increasing we can expect the core to surpass 20,000 people sometime in 2018. But based on the number of units under construction right now it's likely 2017 will be an even bigger year. 1,730 units at 1.4 or so people per unit (I believe that's around the average for new units) means another 2,400 or so people in 2017. That's great news for the core.

The year before, though, only saw 3% growth. It's not like the core has been seeing double digit growth year over year. Also, when I lived in Mt. Adams, I had a 45202 zip code. All of OTR, CBD, Mt. Adams, and parts of the West End and Mt. Auburn? That's a big area. I'm kind of surprised it doesn't already have 20,000 residents. Regardless, let's hope the growth continues.

One is that fact that "slightly fewer people walk to work – 21 percent in 2016 compared with 22 percent in 2015."

 

With the population increase, the overall number of people walking to work has actually increased slightly. In the short term, a higher percentage of "reverse-commuters" moving to the core isn't great because of parking needs, but long term I'm hopeful that employers are encouraged to follow their employees downtown.

By comparison, Nashville is leading the nation in apartment construction as a percentage of its metro population.  They added 7% in 2016 and will ad 9% in 2017. 

 

Something like 15,000 units under construction (throughout entire combined city-county):

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjl493SgqLTAhXE3YMKHU-JBTEQFggsMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tennessean.com%2Fstory%2Fmoney%2Freal-estate%2F2016%2F03%2F20%2Fapartment-perks-signal-softening-nashville-rental-market%2F81681784%2F&usg=AFQjCNHV3zeoes48bfIJkEr6ilkEB4vMBw

The year before, though, only saw 3% growth. It's not like the core has been seeing double digit growth year over year. Also, when I lived in Mt. Adams, I had a 45202 zip code. All of OTR, CBD, Mt. Adams, and parts of the West End and Mt. Auburn? That's a big area. I'm kind of surprised it doesn't already have 20,000 residents. Regardless, let's hope the growth continues.

 

45202 doesn't encompass any of the West End or the norhernmost portion of OTR. The parts of Mt. Auburn it includes are the hillside overlooking the basin. So it's not just OTR, Downtown, and Pendleton, but it also excludes certain portions of what I think a lot of people would consider the core as they're in the basin.

By comparison, Nashville is leading the nation in apartment construction as a percentage of its metro population.  They added 7% in 2016 and will ad 9% in 2017. 

 

Something like 15,000 units under construction (throughout entire combined city-county):

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjl493SgqLTAhXE3YMKHU-JBTEQFggsMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tennessean.com%2Fstory%2Fmoney%2Freal-estate%2F2016%2F03%2F20%2Fapartment-perks-signal-softening-nashville-rental-market%2F81681784%2F&usg=AFQjCNHV3zeoes48bfIJkEr6ilkEB4vMBw

 

Honest question here, but how much more is that than if Cincinnati merged with Hamilton County? It's hard to actually compare since Nashville is huge land area wise. I'd imagine there are many thousands more apartments being built in Hamilton County than we realize which would give a more accurate comparison.

It's at least triple.  I'd be surprised if 5,000 are under construction in Hamilton County.  It's probably more like 3,000-4,000 most years. 

 

There are still tons of vacant buildings in Cincinnati, especially west of I-75.  Every time a builder puts up 25 more homes in Green township, 25 more homes go vacant in Westwood and Covedale. 

The year before, though, only saw 3% growth. It's not like the core has been seeing double digit growth year over year. Also, when I lived in Mt. Adams, I had a 45202 zip code. All of OTR, CBD, Mt. Adams, and parts of the West End and Mt. Auburn? That's a big area. I'm kind of surprised it doesn't already have 20,000 residents. Regardless, let's hope the growth continues.

 

45202 doesn't encompass any of the West End or the norhernmost portion of OTR. The parts of Mt. Auburn it includes are the hillside overlooking the basin. So it's not just OTR, Downtown, and Pendleton, but it also excludes certain portions of what I think a lot of people would consider the core as they're in the basin.

 

Sorry, I meant East End. 45202 covers all of the East End all the way past Torrence! That's a huge area. All of Mt. Adams, too. It also includes basically all of what I think most people would consider OTR- all the way up to McMicken. The little neighborhood west of Central Parkway (Betts-Longworth house area) is excluded, though.

http://cbreemail.com/rff/ff00a423e1fc648ad588bd015c49a0fac31cd359

 

This will give you a good snapshot on the apartment activity in the Cincy metro. We are not Nashville, but Nashville is also a boom/bust market. Cincy is more stable and does a lot better in down markets.

There were a lot of vacancies on the west side and still are.  Obviously, when a multifamily (or house) goes vacant for a little too long its condition deteriorates and it can no longer be rented or counted as a vacancy.  The problem is that the sewer expansion in the late 90s unknowingly set the stage for the collapse of the established neighborhoods. 

 

The 45202 zip code is so eclectic and oddly-shaped that its raw population swings aren't indicative of anything specific.  Average age swings do indicate a change. 

 

 

^That's why city-data is so useless for figuring out how things really are on the ground. It does crime by zips.

The renovation of the buildings on Plum St just north of 4th St will be great to add some larger residential units to downtown. I could be wrong, but I think the 415 Plum St property was/is owned by Shree Kulkarni. This creative renovation (2-floor addition of townhouses on top of existing 1-story structure) strikes me as a very nice way to re-purpose a building that doesn't currently add much to the street.

 

Proposal starts on page 20:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/may-22-2017-staff-reports-and-attachment-s/

The renovation of the buildings on Plum St just north of 4th St will be great to add some larger residential units to downtown. I could be wrong, but I think the 415 Plum St property was/is owned by Shree Kulkarni. This creative renovation (2-floor addition of townhouses on top of existing 1-story structure) strikes me as a very nice way to re-purpose a building that doesn't currently add much to the street.

 

Proposal starts on page 20:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/may-22-2017-staff-reports-and-attachment-s/

 

That is nice, glad to see the creative reuse. That one story was a small grocery back in the day before it got remodeled/re purposed earlier in its life. http://www.hamiltoncountyauditor.org/VintagePhotos/145-0001/Photo1968_145-0001-0051-00.jpg

^very cool old photo!

The renovation of the buildings on Plum St just north of 4th St will be great to add some larger residential units to downtown. I could be wrong, but I think the 415 Plum St property was/is owned by Shree Kulkarni. This creative renovation (2-floor addition of townhouses on top of existing 1-story structure) strikes me as a very nice way to re-purpose a building that doesn't currently add much to the street.

 

Proposal starts on page 20:

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/may-22-2017-staff-reports-and-attachment-s/

 

Very nicely done re-purpose, keeping the 1 story in the front really add interest to the Elm street facade of the addition and Im not sure but if those are decks would be a cool feature to the residents. That building was a grocery back in the day before it was renovated with the present facade. http://www.hamiltoncountyauditor.org/VintagePhotos/145-0001/Photo1968_145-0001-0051-00.jpg

There is currently a curb cut on Plum St that doesn't make sense given the current facade... but looking at the old photo, it appears there was a garage entrance just south of the main door. So, in a sense it seems like this renovation will be returning part of the building to its original (or at least 1968) use as a garage. In the HCB packet, they say they are going to remove that curb cut since there won't be garage access via Plum St.

 

Here you can see the curb cut:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/415+Plum+St,+Cincinnati,+OH+45202/@39.0996454,-84.5176314,3a,75y,266.78h,88.56t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sR7kvPnur0SrPZTJldXhloA!2e0!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841b1523dd5ac2b:0x55f908aa4f203162!8m2!3d39.0996534!4d-84.5178473!6m1!1e1

Since the Shakespeare Company is moving to their new theater this summer, their current location is going to be vacant:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/05/24/how-do-you-market-a-former-downtown-cincinnati.html

 

The article discusses the challenges of marketing such a unique space:

The 215-seat former theater encompasses 3,395 square feet in addition to a 1,680-square-foot lobby. It will be available Aug. 1 and has a negotiable lease price of $3,800 per month. The space has a marquee and corner sign along with a walk-up ticket booth and lots of nearby parking.

 

Go Bananas should move downtown! I hate having to drive out to Montgomery every time a big name comedian I want to see comes to Cincinnati.

I bet they're getting a real deal on the rent in that old apartment complex.

Go Bananas should move downtown! I hate having to drive out to Montgomery every time a big name comedian I want to see comes to Cincinnati.

 

That's actually a great idea! Would be a perfect use for that space, and it would be great to have a comedy club downtown.

Go Bananas should move downtown! I hate having to drive out to Montgomery every time a big name comedian I want to see comes to Cincinnati.

 

There are "big name" comedians at Go Bananas?

Go Bananas should move downtown! I hate having to drive out to Montgomery every time a big name comedian I want to see comes to Cincinnati.

 

There are "big name" comedians at Go Bananas?

 

Did you head downstairs afterward to Sneaky Pete's for some Photo Hunt and Keno?

 

Edit: I'm dating myself...I just checked and saw that the bar changed names at some point to "McLevy's Pub": https://www.facebook.com/Mclevyspub/ 

The sad part is...I remember Sneaky Pete's.