>JMeck, there were actually quite a lot of us at St. X from the east side, such as the person who sat behind you in Geza's class freshman year.

 

Merkowitz, I'd tread lightly around here as I have some video footage of you predicting a Steve Forbes rout in '96.  While wearing a plaid suit.

 

Man, I wish I had known about this in time for dmerkow's bachelor party.  It would have completed the humiliation.

 

No, you know what looks great on a resume? SKILLS. Knowing three foreign languages. I would argue that its a bigger issue than just schools.

 

To get back on topic though, Cincinnati has but a few quality public schools, SCPA and Walnut, but they drain the city of its smart and creative students, leaving the rest to struggle and decay. You see cheap attempts to make the inner city schools appear to be better with uniform requirements and "university" attached to the name of the highschool. Its kinda sad.

 

Basically, there are a few inner city public schools that are good, and in fact better than most private schools, but overall I think catholic schools are overrated.

 

Knowing three foreign languages isn't really going to do much for you unless you need to know three foreign languages.  The definition of what constitutes a quality school is open for discussion, though this probably isn't the place for it.  I don't know what you mean when you say that SCPA and Walnut, "drain the city of it's smart and creative students, leaving the rest to struggle and decay."  It makes no sense, and how do you justify this statement?

 

Like every city, there's a trade off. Personally, I love what Cincinnati could be, its natural beauty and for the most part, the people...but I'll take the economic prosperity of Atlanta or any other sunbelt city for that matter...

 

I'll take my 1/2 hour reverse commute in the AM and 1 hr PM drive in exchange for opportunities that exist in ATL and not in CVG as well as the pleasant winters. Just my own personal trade off; and it would seem the 125,000 + who move to Greater Atlanta every year.

 

The economic prosperity of Atlanta is very much job specific.  I have friends who are lawyers in both Atlanta and in Cincinnati, they make the same money, but the lawyers in Cincinnati can afford better houses, nicer cars, lower general cost of living, etc.  They may spend more money to fly direct, and there are certainly fewer interesting restaurants in Cincinnati, but basically they are more prosperous.  This doesn't hold in every case, but is relative to one's job and the socio-economic status under which one was born.

 

Regarding the tangents that occur in these threads, aside from posting news stories that reference downtown, the heading seems broad enough to include many topics of discussion that influence downtown without specifically mentioning it.  Public education, and the examples of specific schools seem to fall under that category.  Or should we only speak of Taft High School on this thread?

Cincinnati has but a few quality public schools, SCPA and Walnut, but they drain the city of its smart and creative students, leaving the rest to struggle and decay.

I have to disagree with this statement.  As I mentioned before, I went to Walnut, my brother went to a private school.  The choice I had was not between Walnut and another Public School, but Walnut and a private school.  I believe that you will find that is the case with most of the students of this type of school including SCPA.  So without Walnut Hills and SCPA the "smart and creative students" would not attend a Cincinnati Public School at all leaving all of CPS to "struggle and decay".

I don't know what you mean when you say that SCPA and Walnut, "drain the city of it's smart and creative students, leaving the rest to struggle and decay."  It makes no sense, and how do you justify this statement?

Why doesn't it make sense? In 6th grade, Walnut Hills came to my elementary school and had us take a test and those that passed ended up going to Walnut. If you have a better opportunity available to you, you're going to take it. With the smartest kids going there, the public high schools end up with a higher concentration of riffraff. Some of the students at Walnut and SCPA would have went to a private school but I think the majority would not have, and the fact remains that there is a huge disparity between WHHS, SCPA and the rest of the public schools.

Some of the students at Walnut and SCPA would have went to a private school but I think the majority would not have

Still, I disagree.  The opportunity was there for me and the choice was this magnet school (hence the name magnet).  This is an asset for CPS, something that gives bright and talented students a reason to go to a public school when otherwise they probably would choose not to.  Walnut and SCPA in no way hurts any other school but lends to them.  When CPS can boast the 35th best school in the US, it is hard to argue that is a bad thing.

 

the fact remains that there is a huge disparity between WHHS, SCPA and the rest of the public schools.

So I ask, which do we do, demand higher performance standards from other schools, or lessen standards for Walnut?  I think it better to complain about the schools that are not demanding the same high, academic standards, not the one who is out-preforming most every other school in the nation.  They should be celebrated and emulated.

The only way to get away from the current system of separating those who do better on standardized tests is to scrap entirely high schools as we know them.  For example cycle students randomly through four different high schools during the four years so that social cliques are knocked out soon after they form and give students exposure to a lot of different teachers and teaching styles. 

 

Really I think high school itself is fundamentally flawed because in premodern society youth were never concentrated in a building more or less every weekday for four years.  Because teenagers did tons of physical labor and often bore very real responsibilities they certainly grew up a lot faster.  In rural areas kids worked on the farm every day of their lives or on the coasts boys often went to sea at age 13 or 14.  Instead now you've got a bunch of balls of blubber who come home from school and play video games and eat ho-ho's. 

 

Merkowitz, imagine the lot of us 14 year-olds in Mr. Parmentier's class with about 200 guys aged 15-40 in the hull of the USS Constitution circa 1800 manning our canons and drinking 32oz's of rum every night for months on end, sailing to the Caribbean, England, through the Straits of Gibraltar, around Cape Horn. That's how it used to be.  When the ships were wood and the men were steel.   

 

^Uh...

 

 

 

In the case with Private school kids going to Walnut, I know a lot of kids that choose to leave schools like Seven Hills, CCD, and SCD, as well as some of the private grade schools that don't have highschools that go to Walnut.  It's as good of an education and it's free for city residents.  The fact that so many of the elementary schools in the city suck is what causes these people to look elsewhere for gradeschool education, and then turn to the public school for highschool.

this is ridiculous

Uncle Rando,

 

I know this seems off topic but I can tell you first hand that having a strong school within CPS helps drive, in no small part, the success of downtown.  Business pay attention to this and prospective residents pay attention to this as well.  And I can tell you first hand that several Walnut Hills grads are at the forefront of some of the change you are seeing right now both in and around downtown.

 

jmecklenborg,

 

you must have went to a better school than I because I did not understand what in this world your last post meant.

I know the extreme importance of good schools in order to make the inner-city attractive to many people, but the conversation has degraded to something different from that actual discussion.

I don't know if anybody saw this, but it's from April's Urban Land Institute publication:

 

Renaisance on the River

The key to the significance of Walnut and to a lesser extent SCPA, is to try imagine saving Cincinnati without it and its graduates. Going forward we should add Clark to the list. Not going to happen.

 

Interesting aside, Purcell Marian was actually supposed to be where Walnut Hills was eventually built, the archbishop owned the land and had announced the school, but was 'strongly encouraged' to let CPS build their school there, so Purcell ended up in the heart of Walnut Hills instead on a very fine campus.

 

One of the saddest things that happened to downtown actually was the fact that all the Catholic schools packed up and moved to the suburbs. They had decent reasons, but other similar schools didn't do that in other cities. Imagine the benefits to downtown with hard working students floating around and having the real urban experience. It would also help with all our hopes for Mass Transit and connecting people to the CBD. Many of the Catholic high schools can still trace their history through some period of time spent downtown. There would be forms of real life in downtown that wasn't dominated by adults and people with issues.

 

As an example, St. Joseph's Prep in Philly stayed in the heart of North Philly and they are about to have an alumni as mayor there and the school is still the dominant one in the city, comparable only to their version of Walnut, which is Central and Girls High Schools.

 

Jmeck... it certainly felt like we drinking rum and spending life at the end of a lash... especially when it came to the Indian subcontinent...

Below-market prices attract two tenants to 600 Vine

Aggressive rates help building, hinder rents at other sites

 

Tempting rental rates and below-average operating expenses have attracted two new tenants to the Center at 600 Vine, pushing the building's occupancy up to one-third.  Jack Rouse Associates, an international design firm specializing in entertainment facilities and museum exhibits, will move its corporate headquarters from the Kroger building into 20,000 square feet this year.

 

Cadence Network, a utility expense management company, left the Fourth & Walnut Center in June to occupy 20,000 square feet in the Sixth and Vine building.  They'll help fill a glut of space left by Convergys Corp. in 2006 when it bought and moved into the Atrium II building.

 

Read full article here:

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/07/02/story14.html

So are these new tenants to downtown or just moving people around through dropping rental rates?

Sounds like people simply upgrading their spaces, for a good price.  The intriguing part is that:

 

He's leased about 80,000 square feet in the building in the last year and has proposals out for the rest, about 370,000 square feet. Some of the proposals are to very large potential tenants.

 

There must be something in the air, because I have heard comments from others about the potential of a couple new major tenants for downtown office space.  I imagine that they all won't come through, but I have faith that 600 Vine and QCS II might both land one.  That is what I am gauging from the talks I have heard.

I hope they are new to downtown or new to the metro area. Just moving people around downtown just means you still have the same vacancy rate and employment numbers. The one big issue about lower rental rates (if it becomes widespread) is it usually means demand is not supporting current rent numbers and it may also hurt future building projects because most construction projects have to have a certain rental rate per square foot or they can't get financing. Commercial is very much like residential, if demand is low prices go down and the undercutting of your neighbors property to lease the space begins.

 

There is a reason why the RE industry feels lower rental rates or prices of homes is not a good thing. It general hurts future projects and shows a lack of demand. With that said, if these new major leases happen and they are new to the downtown market that is a good thing.

it usually means demand is not supporting current rent numbers and it may also hurt future building projects because most construction projects have to have a certain rental rate per square foot or they can't get financing.

 

Or it could mean Hertz realized that they could lower rates while still producing their desired yield.

Now I am no rocket surgeon, but if I can have an occupied building by offering a lower lease rate and at the same time lower my expenses, it seems to me that building has a higher value than having held out for a higher rate while sitting on an empty building, especially in a competitive leasing market like we have in CBD.  Good move if you ask me.

 

A real estate tax reduction allows the building's owner, California-based Hertz Investment Group, to offer lower operating expenses of $7.78 per square foot, about $1-$2 per square foot less than other buildings.

 

construction projects have to have a certain rental rate per square foot or they can't get financing.

 

Rental Rates alone to get financing means little, it is just a piece of the equation-- yield is king.

 

Just moving people around downtown just means you still have the same vacancy rate and employment numbers.

Not necessarily.  You are assuming that there is no increase in space or that the money saved in the lease doesn't get allocated to increasing other operating expenses, such as additional employees or perhaps both.

it usually means demand is not supporting current rent numbers and it may also hurt future building projects because most construction projects have to have a certain rental rate per square foot or they can't get financing.

 

Or it could mean Hertz realized that they could lower rates while still producing their desired yield.

Now I am no rocket surgeon, but if I can have an occupied building by offering a lower lease rate and at the same time lower my expenses, it seems to me that building has a higher value than having held out for a higher rate while sitting on an empty building, especially in a competitive leasing market like we have in CBD.  Good move if you ask me.

 

A real estate tax reduction allows the building's owner, California-based Hertz Investment Group, to offer lower operating expenses of $7.78 per square foot, about $1-$2 per square foot less than other buildings.

 

construction projects have to have a certain rental rate per square foot or they can't get financing.

 

Rental Rates to get financing means little to nothing, yield is king.

 

I never said it wasn't a good move for the building owner! I said, it does very little for downtown if you just move people around. Nor does it do a lot of good for the other building owners if they then have to lower rates (without having a real estate tax reduction) to attract tenants. That would mean those other building would then end up with a much lower desired yield.

 

Michael,

You work in the RE industry. Are you telling mean that it good to just move people around with out increasing demand for a product and at the same time potential creating dropping rental rates and lower overall yields for downtown office space?

Michael,

You work in the RE industry. Are you telling mean that it good to just move people around with out increasing demand for a product and at the same time potential creating dropping rental rates and lower overall yields for downtown office space?

 

I am telling you that his drop in leasing rates does not mean "demand is not supporting current rent numbers."  It means that this one building owner made a wise move in a competitive marketplace, hence "prices attract two tenants to 600 Vine."

And because I do work in the industry I can't imagine having a conversation with this owner and saying not to do this.

 

at the same time potential creating dropping rental rates and lower overall yields for downtown office space?

Other building owners will not take the hit on yield and therefor will not follow this one owners lead simply because he found a savings where others may have not.  He dropped rates and can maintain his yield, others can not, and therefor will not.

^^ This type of thing happens all of the time in CBD's. Can someone fill me in on what is new here?

Lease rates aside, these moves are generally good for several reasons.  First, most tenants are "moving up" in terms of their space (C to B, B to A).  Second, I would guess most tenants usually grow in terms of space.  Finally, aside from lease rates, most tenants will move to take advantages in space efficiency.  For example, the 20,000 s.f. tenant may have had 17,000 s.f. in their old building in 3 or 4 locations on 2 different floors.  By moving, they get a large block of contiguous space, and free up space in their previous building for other tenants to expand, increasing efficiency yet again.  Some of these other tenants may even move out of downtown if there is no expansion room or not enough contiguous space available since large blocks of space do not come along very often and there is not a lot of new construction.

Michael,

You work in the RE industry. Are you telling mean that it good to just move people around with out increasing demand for a product and at the same time potential creating dropping rental rates and lower overall yields for downtown office space?

 

I am telling you that his drop in leasing rates does not mean "demand is not supporting current rent numbers."  It means that this one building owner made a wise move in a competitive marketplace, hence "prices attract two tenants to 600 Vine."

And because I do work in the industry I can't imagine having a conversation with this owner and saying not to do this.

 

at the same time potential creating dropping rental rates and lower overall yields for downtown office space?

Other building owners will not take the hit on yield and therefor will not follow this one owners lead simply because he found a savings where others may have not.  He dropped rates and can maintain his yield, others can not, and therefor will not.

 

I agree, if this is a one time event no one else will drop rental rates to compete for tenants. But what happens if they do this again for the other 370,000 square feet and other building do feel the need to protect their current tenant list and match these numbers?

What if...

But what happens if they do this again for the other 370,000 square feet and other building do feel the need to protect their current tenant list and match these numbers?

 

Are you still searching for any thread of evidence that the markets are all crashing?

But what happens if they do this again for the other 370,000 square feet and other building do feel the need to protect their current tenant list and match these numbers?

 

Are you still searching for any thread of evidence that the markets are all crashing?

 

No, the article said they are look to lease out the rest of the space the same way.

As Cincy Rise said, this happens all the time.  I see the upside on this deal as possibly attracting in someone from outside of the CBD of Cincy as well. Plus providing an opportunity for some to move from B to A or expansion. 

 

Trust me when I say that rental rates across the board will not come crashing down.  This building had an opportunity to attract new tenants because of a tax issue allowing for flexibility, thats all.

As Cincy Rise said, this happens all the time.  I see the upside on this deal as possibly attracting in someone from outside of the CBD of Cincy as well. Plus providing an opportunity for some to move from B to A or expansion. 

 

Trust me when I say that rental rates across the board will not come crashing down.  This building had an opportunity to attract new tenants because of a tax issue allowing for flexibility, thats all.

 

Actually only you said anything about rental rates crashing etc... You won't find that in any of my post. Nice try though.

 

So far they have only attracted tenants from other downtown buildings.

de Cavel plans new bar

 

Chef Jean-Robert de Cavel, operator of Jean-Robert at Pigall’s and Jean-Ro Bistro in downtown Cincinnati, plans to add to his galaxy of French-themed restaurants with a lounge at the site of the former Dodd Jewelers on Fourth Street. The site is adjacent to Pigall’s.

 

“We are almost ready to make a deal,” de Cavel said today. “We need to be able to have walk-through from Pigall’s to the space and we are looking into the permits now.”  Not yet named, his proposed club will hold about 80 seats with café and coffee tables.  The new space will feel more like a lounge than a restaurant.

 

Read full article here:

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070629/BIZ01/306290049

>The lounge is the latest move for the restaurateur’s growing enterprise

 

And meanwhile Nat Commisar makes biweekly appearances on Stump the Band...but what's Nat going to do after Gary retires this year?  Classic case of the kid ruining the family business.   

Yeah...whatever happened to the re-opening of the Masoinette near Kenwood Towne Centre!?!?  I thought that downtown's retail/dining scene was to blame for his restaurants closure.  hmmm....

 

Another example of the city getting thrown under the bus for someone else's incompetence.  Way to go Comisar's, you have successfully missed out on the resurgence of Downtown Cincinnati.  I wonder how de Cavel even gets by??

Amen!

The city needs to work to get all of Cincinnati Bell's office space, call centers, and training facilities back downtown. After Convergys bought Atrium II, Bell moved most everything to the Norwood facility shared with Convergys. I think it would be great to have Bell back downtown and out of Norwood. It ain't "Norwood Bell."

>The lounge is the latest move for the restaurateur?s growing enterprise

 

And meanwhile Nat Commisar makes biweekly appearances on Stump the Band...but what's Nat going to do after Gary retires this year?  Classic case of the kid ruining the family business.   

 

Nat Commisar is doing very well in real estate as an agent for SibcyCline.

The city needs to work to get all of Cincinnati Bell's office space, call centers, and training facilities back downtown. After Convergys bought Atrium II, Bell moved most everything to the Norwood facility shared with Convergys. I think it would be great to have Bell back downtown and out of Norwood. It ain't "Norwood Bell."

 

Uh oh, be careful...I mentioned before that it would be nice if some of the local corporations moved their call centers and other various operations downtown.  The response from the other forumers pretty much was that downtown is too good for those types of jobs (whatever that means).

^Are you refering to my post about how having a call center downtown isn't a good idea if they don't pay very high wages? Cities like Cincinnati will only incentivize businesses to locate here if it offers high paying jobs. They don't just want growth, they want to improve the quality of life and increase the amount of tax revenue they can collect. Higher paying jobs are better for the city and the residents. Patrick Ewing, one of the economic development officers for Cincinnati specifically said that. Probably why he was so excited to show our class renderings of One River Plaza (EXPENSIVE units!). I did a little bit of research and found out USBank's call center pays like 12 bucks an hour though--I'm all for that being downtown!

CBT's call center Reps make 40-50k per year. That isn't high paying? They answer phones!

 

And most of the employees at the Norwood facility, from what I know, make 30k+. I think those are high enough paying jobs to relocate dt.

That's fine. Actually that's probably more than what I'll make when I'm out of college with debt and that kinda pisses me off. My stance wasn't against call centers in general. I know that Delta's downtown requires you to be on call 7 days a week...a job like that should be high paying.

CBT's call centers make that much money because they are Union. They work 40hrs a week and have call handle time restrictions...etc. I, personally, don't think they should make more than 40k. There are some people in the call center who make damn near 65k. That's absurd, but what you get when you work in a union. They are also the reason CBT moved out of dt

Kroger was union.. I paid my union fees. I made minimum wage there with my superior cart pushing and people skills. Is that justice?!

no. You had to fork over a portion of your hard earned income to a union group that probably did nothing for you.

That's fine. Actually that's probably more than what I'll make when I'm out of college with debt and that kinda pisses me off. My stance wasn't against call centers in general. I know that Delta's downtown requires you to be on call 7 days a week...a job like that should be high paying.

Union workers & trades workers pretty much have a cap on their earnings. For a professional, there really is no cap.

A young person in a trade/union job makes good money early on with a small investment in learning his job. A pro makes a more substantial investment at the outset and frequently doesn't make much in his first years on the job.

and no, I am not talking about absolutes.

CBT's call centers make that much money because they are Union. They work 40hrs a week and have call handle time restrictions...etc. I, personally, don't think they should make more than 40k. There are some people in the call center who make damn near 65k. That's absurd, but what you get when you work in a union. They are also the reason CBT moved out of dt

 

Wow! Of all the crazy things for someone to be upset about, you're upset that some people are making a good wage for their work?!

They make more than my roommate at Bell who is a manager and has a degree. the call center reps are just hourly. I'm not upset they make good money (too much money in my opinion). I'm upset that CBT isn't more invested dt.

They make more to start than a manager does?  Or more after 5 years than a manager does to start?

more to start than a manager

That's fine. Actually that's probably more than what I'll make when I'm out of college with debt and that kinda pisses me off. My stance wasn't against call centers in general. I know that Delta's downtown requires you to be on call 7 days a week...a job like that should be high paying.

 

Just an FYI for you David, you should expect to be paid 35-40k starting out.  Of course this depends upon what part of the country, public/private, etc.  The key part also is that while some other positions may start out at more (ie General Manager of a restaurant), they have much fewer opportunities to move up and will most likely max out at a much lower salary than what someone with a degree required job will.

That's fine. Actually that's probably more than what I'll make when I'm out of college with debt and that kinda pisses me off. My stance wasn't against call centers in general. I know that Delta's downtown requires you to be on call 7 days a week...a job like that should be high paying.

 

Just an FYI for you David, you should expect to be paid 35-40k starting out.  Of course this depends upon what part of the country, public/private, etc.  The key part also is that while some other positions may start out at more (ie General Manager of a restaurant), they have much fewer opportunities to move up and will most likely max out at a much lower salary than what someone with a degree required job will.

 

Not if you are a teacher. They should make more, but they don't. Actually many professions that require a degree don't start out at these levels.

^He's a planner (Bachelor of Urban Planning), from the great University of Cincinnati!

If you take a look at most starting planning positions in the midwest or other similar cost of living locations a planner starting out will only make between $30,000 an maybe $35,000. If you are willing to go to the coast you can make more but the cost of living goes way up. Most of the time when you see a Planner 1 or Associate Planner position you can assume your pay will be towards the low end of the pay range.

Personally, I plan on working at a private firm. I don't think you work as many hours in the public sector.

Personally, I plan on working at a private firm. I don't think you work as many hours in the public sector.

 

You are correct, if you going into a private firm usually the money is a little better but the hours are a lot more.