6 hours ago, ASP1984 said:

Notice the depression, water feature, and bridge across from Terminal Tower where public square now is - anyone know more about this? Super curious.

 

According to an article I read a while ago:

Quote

The opening of the Cleveland Union Terminal in 1930 prompted a sprucing up of Public Square, including the removal of a pavilion and a rustic bridge over an artificial stream that had occupied the square's southwest quadrant for decades.

 

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/22

Another postcard from CPL

 

There's no date on this, but sure would be nice to have some shade on our malls again (I know the convention center below limits things, but still): 

 

That photo is from before 1955 which is when construction began on the previous Cuyahoga County Administration building that was at the SE corner of Ontario and Lakeside. It's just a parking lot here.

On 5/16/2023 at 10:01 PM, sonisharri said:

 

According to an article I read a while ago:

 

https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/22

Really interesting article shared by @sonisharri- turns out Public Square has long suffered from trying to be public space, park and transit hub simultaneously. 
 

I’m one that would love to see no traffic intersecting the square - reroute buses around it - the extra few minutes would be absorbed, life would go on just fine - and the space would feel more expansive, recreational and aesthetically pleasing. 
 

But I understand that this might be a minority opinion and one previously debated….

 

Anyway, check out the article if you haven’t already 

42 minutes ago, CleveFan said:

I’m one that would love to see no traffic intersecting the square - reroute buses around it - the extra few minutes would be absorbed, life would go on just fine - and the space would feel more expansive, recreational and aesthetically pleasing. 

 

Frank Jackson was presented with an option to refund the FTA for their portion of the redo of Public Square or (pay nothing) and reopen the bus lane when he had it closed over 'terrorism' issues.

The FTA had nothing to do with Public Square redo.  They wanted a refund of the federal grant for Healthline.  The reason being was the extra time required for Healthline busses to go around the square.   Frank should have kept the square closed and let the FTA sue to try to get their refund.  FTA likely would have backed off.

 

Edited May 18, 20232 yr by LibertyBlvd

Is there a time period that we have to keep the square open to bus traffic or even if we tried to close it 15 years from now we'd still have to pay money back?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

According to Clevelanders for Public Transit, closing the central Square section of Superior and routing buses around the square would require buses to make an additional 1.2 million turns every year. Apparently turns are when most bus accidents happen so increasing the number of turns is not ideal. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2016/12/woman_critically_injured_by_bu.html

 

I think Public Square should be closed to all personal traffic, so I don't know if the safety concerns would persist if buses weren't competing with cars. 

Edited May 18, 20232 yr by Luke_S

1 hour ago, Luke_S said:

According to Clevelanders for Public Transit, closing the central Square section of Superior and routing buses around the square would require buses to make an additional 1.2 million turns every year. Apparently turns are when most bus accidents happen so increasing the number of turns is not ideal. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2016/12/woman_critically_injured_by_bu.html

 

I think Public Square should be closed to all personal traffic, so I don't know if the safety concerns would persist if buses weren't competing with cars. 

I can understand the concern, but it's worth remembering these are by definition professional drivers. I think it's reasonable to hold them to a higher standard for safety and watching out for pedestrians. 

 

The majority of buses don't go through the center of the square anyway. Currently, most of them go around (based on personal observation). They are doing fine. The minority of routes that currently cut across could adjust to going around the square. It will take slightly longer, I don't think we'll have an issue with safety.

 

I agree with others that it will make the square feel much bigger. It will only get like 10% more space, but I think it will get 25% more usable space, and feel 33% bigger. I'm definitely team close the square. 

 

Honestly, the square is basically closed to traffic anyway. It's almost always faster to take an alternative route than it is to go around public square. The only people going around are people who don't know where they're going, and people on sightseeing drives. I don't think there'd be much of a traffic impact if you closed public square entirely. 

 

--

 

Also, as an unrelated aside, can we please get the buses to stop speaking? Ditto for crosswalks. I've never been to another country where machines talk to pedestrians so much (probably because there isn't one language they're confident everyone knows). Everywhere else in e world seems to get by on beeps and nonverbal alert signals. These are far less obnoxious. And most of them have better safety records than us anyway. Sorry, minor annoyance I've been saving for a while.  

I, too, would be happy to see Public Square pedestrianized, cars banned, and only permit buses to travel around rather than through the square.

 

But I recently heard a story from a friend in England about how they had introduced articulated buses (like the Healthline buses) and saw a surge in accidents involving cyclists caught on the inside as the buses turned corners.  Consequently, the articulated buses didn't last long and were removed over safety concerns.

 

This was the first I'd heard of it, and I couldn't find an article online to verify, so may be apocryphal, but yet another reason for protected/segregated bike lanes.

 

From Jersey barriers to Raptors on Public Square
By Ken Prendergast / May 19, 2023

 

Out go the Jersey barriers. In come the Raptors.

That was the decision today by the Cleveland Planning Commission to redesign downtown’s Public Square from its 2016 redesign. In fact, the $3.5 million plan as approved would restore one aspect of the 2016 Public Square renovation which cost $50 million. That would be to restore the planned sharrows on both sides of Superior Avenue in the middle of the square. The approved redesign places 60 new bollards along the slimmed-down street which will remain bus-only through the square.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/05/19/from-jersey-barriers-to-raptors-on-public-square/

44 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

From Jersey barriers to Raptors on Public Square
By Ken Prendergast / May 19, 2023

 

Out go the Jersey barriers. In come the Raptors.

That was the decision today by the Cleveland Planning Commission to redesign downtown’s Public Square from its 2016 redesign. In fact, the $3.5 million plan as approved would restore one aspect of the 2016 Public Square renovation which cost $50 million. That would be to restore the planned sharrows on both sides of Superior Avenue in the middle of the square. The approved redesign places 60 new bollards along the slimmed-down street which will remain bus-only through the square.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/05/19/from-jersey-barriers-to-raptors-on-public-square/

 

I like it.  The retractable raptors for special events bring us one step closer to uniting the whole square together.  Any images of the non-raptor bollards that will be lining Superior?  

 

Bike sharrows are usually pretty worthless (https://macwright.com/2020/12/04/sharrows.html) but in a context where Superior is bus-only inside the square, bike riders won't have to compete with as many vehicles so the sharrows should be fine.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

From Jersey barriers to Raptors on Public Square
By Ken Prendergast / May 19, 2023

 

Out go the Jersey barriers. In come the Raptors.

That was the decision today by the Cleveland Planning Commission to redesign downtown’s Public Square from its 2016 redesign. In fact, the $3.5 million plan as approved would restore one aspect of the 2016 Public Square renovation which cost $50 million. That would be to restore the planned sharrows on both sides of Superior Avenue in the middle of the square. The approved redesign places 60 new bollards along the slimmed-down street which will remain bus-only through the square.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/05/19/from-jersey-barriers-to-raptors-on-public-square/

So is the raised table central crosswalk the whole part of the internal butterfly shape, or just a narrow crosswalk shape? I know this was suggested at a previous city planning meeting, but I'm having a hard time figuring this out from just reading through the presentation. 

 

Edit: Just found the relevant portion in the meeting. The answer is no, standard crosswalk only. Seems like a major missed opportunity. We are still directing people to cross somewhere other than where the paths lead. As a result this strikes me as an insufficient step. Road still needs closed. 

 

Obviously this change will still be a major improvement, and I'll be glad to see those barriers gone, but there shouldn't be a crosswalk here at all. I should be able to walk from one part of public square to the other without having to wait for a little electric sign to tell me it's okay. 

Can someone post a picture of the current Jersey Barrier in comparison to the raptor

Concrete Barriers story. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-public-square-updates-approved/95-eb5986c9-9936-4e09-9b39-5864fdccf942

8 hours ago, ryanfrazier said:

Bike sharrows are usually pretty worthless (https://macwright.com/2020/12/04/sharrows.html) but in a context where Superior is bus-only inside the square, bike riders won't have to compete with as many vehicles so the sharrows should be fine.

 

Also because it is bus-only, painting sharrows helps communicate to bikers that they’re allowed there as well

On 5/19/2023 at 9:10 AM, Foraker said:

This was the first I'd heard of it, and I couldn't find an article online to verify, so may be apocryphal, but yet another reason for protected/segregated bike lanes.

Just google “London bendy bus” and you’ll find all you need to know about this particular episode.  Boris likes to think he saved the day (and cyclists butts) on this one. 
 

That said, the congestion and cycle usership of central London is not exactly analogous to Public Square. I don’t think that experience should be translated here for the choice of routing or buses

Edited May 20, 20232 yr by brtshrcegr

How is it we used to manage this in Public Square (photo circa 1940) and today it's so difficult?   

 

Maybe there were accidents back then and we just never heard about them?   Less lawyers?   

 

I personally would love to see pedestrians, cars, buses and trains crowding the square with a population approaching 1 million once again....

Maybe it's that people are a lot stupider today. 

Hustle and bustle aside, what a nice sensible design for that quadrant of the square. Clear paths to walk on.  Place to sit.  A central focal point.  

Raptors in action courtesy of the best account on Twitter

 

Now if only they could do something about the trees that had died and were never replaced.  I also was a bit surprised that this design was approved because City Councilmember Kerry McCormack was adamant that designated bike lanes needed to be part of any design approvals thru Public Square at the last time the design was submitted.

a beautifully hi-res ps pavilion pic i found — 

 

 

On 5/19/2023 at 9:57 AM, KJP said:

 

From Jersey barriers to Raptors on Public Square
By Ken Prendergast / May 19, 2023

 

Out go the Jersey barriers. In come the Raptors.

That was the decision today by the Cleveland Planning Commission to redesign downtown’s Public Square from its 2016 redesign. In fact, the $3.5 million plan as approved would restore one aspect of the 2016 Public Square renovation which cost $50 million. That would be to restore the planned sharrows on both sides of Superior Avenue in the middle of the square. The approved redesign places 60 new bollards along the slimmed-down street which will remain bus-only through the square.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/05/19/from-jersey-barriers-to-raptors-on-public-square/

 

A quick search showed no results for how these specific bollards handle road salt. Anyhow I'm sure the city learned its lesson and has done plenty of due diligence ;-) 

 

I guess we'll know soon enough. 

^ those are all over here in nyc and they seemingly handle the salt well. nyc sanitation is very free with throwing salt around and i see them crusted up in salt and gunk all the time, but then they also open and close them a lot to keep them unstuck. they do need repaired at times tho. i am thinking like downtown around wall st and the courts out here.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 20232 yr by mrnyc

Surveys and listening sessions for Cleveland parks and recreation department. Click the link for short/long surveys, or for more information about the in person sessions. 

 

 

https://cleparksrecplan.com/

Cleveland's 2024 Park Score rating is out. We've slipped a few places, but it's basically the same story. We're held back by our lack of park acreage, but we're doing well in terms of equity and access. So basically our parks are well distributed, but they're too few and too small. 

 

Still it's interesting to dig into the report, where they recommend adding parks et cetera. Nothing really different from previous years, but it's still worth a look. 

 

https://www.tpl.org/city/cleveland-ohio

 

 

--

 

Crains has a nice write up on it. 

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/sports-recreation/cleveland-park-score-index-falls

 

Crains points out we have several parks under construction. I might do the math and see how many points we'd gain if the currently under construction or planned parks were counted. 

 

Edit: adding in Irishtown Bend and Cheers would increase our percent parkland to 7.3% (from 7%) and increase our pure acreage score to ~30 (from 28). A fairly marginal difference. There's only one location where Cleveland could significantly increase it's acreage by a percentage point or more, but that probably wouldn't fly with the feds, plus it's been talked to death on this forum already. 

 

--

 

Also, TPL's weighting is dumb. NYC as an example. NYC is being punished for having many small parks, they'd actually improve their rating in the acreage category by removing small pocket parks entirely. This could be improved by using mean size instead of median, removing the average Park size entirely, or somehow incorporating it into the access category (what is the average size park people have within a ten minute walk?). 

 

 

NYC has effectively maxed out their access score, so if they added a bunch more <1 acre pocket parks they'd fall in the rankings, that's clearly a flaw in the ranking. I'd argue for getting rid of median park size entirely from the score, between access and overall acreage it's redundant. 

 

Edited May 23, 20241 yr by Ethan
Added in math

I looked at the top cities on the list and was jealous of the riverfront for Minneapolis. If we could get this in Cleveland it would be amazing. I think we're well on our way but we have a ways to go. Essentially the whole riverfront through the city is one long park.

 

6 hours ago, dwolfi01 said:

I looked at the top cities on the list and was jealous of the riverfront for Minneapolis. If we could get this in Cleveland it would be amazing. I think we're well on our way but we have a ways to go. Essentially the whole riverfront through the city is one long park.

 

While I’ve been to the Twin Cities a number of times, only once in the summertime with a fair chance to see its waterfront. But, I’d say that map is a little deceptive – there isn’t one long park as it appears, as I think the green shows both formal parks and more informal green space (which in this case means small flood plain). 
 

Welcome to be corrected if I’m wrong. Google “Riverfirst Minneapolis” and you’ll see that their riverfront park development is an ongoing (but impressive) process. 
 

Edited May 23, 20241 yr by brtshrcegr

I personally would prefer buildings, restaurants, office, apartments, and density on the water in my city center, so I would choose development over greenspace.  However, Cleveland is blessed with two waterfronts so we don't have to choose!  We can have it all baby!  Both Chicago and Milwaukee have dense development along their rivers and tons of greenspace along the lakefront.  For a lot of reasons, I think that approach makes sense in Cleveland.  My only wish is that the planners of the lakefront and riverfront would cooperate more.  I wish there was more clarity of vision in Cleveland.

From North Coast Harbor’s IG, apparently the Lone Sailor monument was finished last month.

 

3 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said:

From North Coast Harbor’s IG, apparently the Lone Sailor monument was finished last month.

 

What was the reasoning for his placement again? Looking at the third picture why isn't he facing the direction on the camera with his back towards the lake? 

Edited November 12, 2024Nov 12 by MyPhoneDead

^ I believe that most of the monuments, when adjacent to the coastline, are situated to be looking out over the water. 

3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

why isn't he facing the direction on the camera

he's just a little camera shy let him go.

7 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

he's just a little camera shy let him go.

I believe the sailor is facing Burke while shedding a tear In disbelief that Cleveland would put an airport where there should only be boating and public recreation access.

22 minutes ago, surfohio said:

^ I believe that most of the monuments, when adjacent to the coastline, are situated to be looking out over the water. 

Ah that makes a lot of sense.

Stopped at the new Lone Sailor monument last night. Very pleased with it. Did some reading on it and there are only 19 in the world so far. Awesome that we got one so go check it out!

 

Saw this on Monday. Not sure what ‘project’ it is, but looked cool enough. 

Maybe part of that lighting project where they wanted to extend lights down Euclid and to the Mall. Can't remember the name of it. Think it was revealed sometime last year

I believe it’s Illuminate CLE from Destination Cleveland.  Glad to hear it looks good! Improved lighting goes a long way to help make Public Square and downtown feel more inviting when it’s dark out.

This is a nice addition to Public Square. I hope Destination Cleveland is right and it facilitates people spending more time there into the evening. I would think if people are used to going to and spending time in Public Square when it's nice it'll make the Winter Lights in December that much more popular. 

 

I still would like them to go further and close Public Square to personal autos for a truly pedestrian space. RTA buses only and food trucks. 

 

Cleveland’s Public Square illuminated with permanent installation

Ideastream Public Media | By Jean-Marie Papoi

Published April 17, 2025

 

Downtown Cleveland’s Public Square got a glow up Wednesday night as Destination Cleveland kicked off Illuminate CLE, a new permanent lighting installation that splashes vibrant colors across several surrounding buildings once the sun goes down.

 

David Gilbert, President and CEO of Destination Cleveland, said the project is meant to draw more people to the downtown area after dark.

 

https://www.ideastream.org/arts-culture/2025-04-17/clevelands-public-square-illuminated-with-permanent-installation

13 hours ago, Luke_S said:

This is a nice addition to Public Square. I hope Destination Cleveland is right and it facilitates people spending more time there into the evening. I would think if people are used to going to and spending time in Public Square when it's nice it'll make the Winter Lights in December that much more popular. 

 

I still would like them to go further and close Public Square to personal autos for a truly pedestrian space. RTA buses only and food trucks. 

 

Cleveland’s Public Square illuminated with permanent installation

Ideastream Public Media | By Jean-Marie Papoi

Published April 17, 2025

 

Downtown Cleveland’s Public Square got a glow up Wednesday night as Destination Cleveland kicked off Illuminate CLE, a new permanent lighting installation that splashes vibrant colors across several surrounding buildings once the sun goes down.

 

David Gilbert, President and CEO of Destination Cleveland, said the project is meant to draw more people to the downtown area after dark.

 

https://www.ideastream.org/arts-culture/2025-04-17/clevelands-public-square-illuminated-with-permanent-installation

 

I don't understand why you'd close it to personal autos but keep it open to busses.  Absolutely all benefits of closing it to auto are forestalled by continuing to run busses through the middle of the square.

1 minute ago, X said:

 

I don't understand why you'd close it to personal autos but keep it open to busses.  Absolutely all benefits of closing it to auto are forestalled by continuing to run busses through the middle of the square.

 

Significantly lower traffic volumes so pedestrians are dodging fewer vehicles and you need fewer lanes of traffic. I would also keep buses to the perimeter of the square and not run through the center. 

2 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

Significantly lower traffic volumes so pedestrians are dodging fewer vehicles and you need fewer lanes of traffic. I would also keep buses to the perimeter of the square and not run through the center. 

 

They aren't supposed to be "dodging" vehicles.  They're supposed to cross at crosswalks.  I suspect that would stay the same if the busses remain on those roadways, as it currently is in the center of the square.

1 hour ago, X said:

 

They aren't supposed to be "dodging" vehicles.  They're supposed to cross at crosswalks.  I suspect that would stay the same if the busses remain on those roadways, as it currently is in the center of the square.

I dodge vehicles while in crosswalks, or just yield to them when I have the right of way because I can tell the driver won't follow the law and it's not worth me dying over, multiple times every single day in this city. 

 

There are no reasons for personal vehicles to be anywhere on the square, except to get to another street. There are no parking spaces or places to stop. Although you can usually find multiple cars illegally parked around it at any hour of the day, and will never see them receive a ticket. It would speed up busses in this area as well, as you could just rework the traffic lights around the exterior to turn green when a bus needs to go, and the pedestrian walk lights remain on at all other times. 

 

If we ever want the square to feel like "Cleveland's living room" again, removing the car traffic/noise/fumes would be a great start. Add more amenities and a playground or something as well. A beer garden like Boston's Trillium Garden on the Greenway in the summer with rotating food trucks. We have 25k people living Downtown now and a new bikeway coming that will go right to the Square. Give people more reasons to go sit outside Downtown in an area they won't be hit with the obnoxious car and motorcycle noise 10 feet from them. 

Edited April 18Apr 18 by PlanCleveland

37 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I dodge vehicles while in crosswalks, or just yield to them when I have the right of way because I can tell the driver won't follow the law and it's not worth me dying over, multiple times every single day in this city. 

 

There are no reasons for personal vehicles to be anywhere on the square, except to get to another street. There are no parking spaces or places to stop. Although you can usually find multiple cars illegally parked around it at any hour of the day, and will never see them receive a ticket. It would speed up busses in this area as well, as you could just rework the traffic lights around the exterior to turn green when a bus needs to go, and the pedestrian walk lights remain on at all other times. 

 

If we ever want the square to feel like "Cleveland's living room" again, removing the car traffic/noise/fumes would be a great start. Add more amenities and a playground or something as well. A beer garden like Boston's Trillium Garden on the Greenway in the summer with rotating food trucks. We have 25k people living Downtown now and a new bikeway coming that will go right to the Square. Give people more reasons to go sit outside Downtown in an area they won't be hit with the obnoxious car and motorcycle noise 10 feet from them. 

 

 

Sure, except they'll still have the busses idling 10 feet from them.  The problem is without getting rid of the busses too, all we'll ever have is half a loaf of "Cleveland's living room" and half a loaf of "Cleveland's bus station".  That would be an extremely modest improvement (at best) from where we're at.

I enjoy that Public Square has been reinvented within the past 10 years. Sometimes it is difficult to understand why the malls haven't been activated to extend the public's uses.  This is where the next focus should be placed.  I never understood why public amenities and activations were eliminated from inclusion on the large open spaces.  Talks happened about playgrounds and basketball courts but nothing has come to fruition other than some art installations which draw little attention.

1 hour ago, dave2017 said:

I enjoy that Public Square has been reinvented within the past 10 years. Sometimes it is difficult to understand why the malls haven't been activated to extend the public's uses.  This is where the next focus should be placed.  I never understood why public amenities and activations were eliminated from inclusion on the large open spaces.  Talks happened about playgrounds and basketball courts but nothing has come to fruition other than some art installations which draw little attention.

The malls should be Cleveland's living room. 

Public Square should continue to be a hub for transit and commerce, as it has been since the city's founding.  

 

 

10 hours ago, X said:

 

They aren't supposed to be "dodging" vehicles.  They're supposed to cross at crosswalks.  I suspect that would stay the same if the busses remain on those roadways, as it currently is in the center of the square.

The problem is that RTA is unwilling to give its drivers the responsibilities befitting professional drivers. Hence the crosswalk in the middle of public square, despite the fact that it bastardizes the intended pedestrian flow on Public Square, and only busses are allowed on the road that shouldn't even be there. At least the Jersey Barriers are gone now so jaywalking is simple. 

 

Having lived off public square, it is effectively closed to through traffic in most directions purely by intentionally horribly timed lights. It does get a lot of pick up drop off traffic though, which is useful in a pinch, and is inherently carpooling.