My understanding is that this CVS is kind of a lifeline for Westminister-Thurber. Early on in the process it was discussed how a huge chunk of the clientele walks across the street from Westminister-Thurber for all kind of things, like OTC drugs, small grab and go items, the pharmacy, etc.

 

I really do see the value in keeping a convenience store pharmacy here for Thurber and the surrounding neighborhood but its insane to me that CVS is demanding that much. They'd be getting a new space, improved visibility, and increased density/population to pull from... the fact they are demanding a suburban store in this location and have hundreds of true urban locations around the country is asinine. Isn't CVS agreeing to the Lane & High project? I am pretty sure that will be a CVS with no/minimal impact drive-thru and is on the ground floor of a mixed use tower. So why are they demanding such a different project here? I am not sure what can be done but I just feel like there is a solution and its probably just that nobody wants to pay for it. 

2 hours ago, aderwent said:

Has to have a drive thru?! OK, White Castle in the Short North has a drive thru in the attached parking garage. Why is that not an option for them?

 

Can they demolish everything except the CVS? Build townhomes along Buttles with a grocery behind, fronting Neil. A garage in the middle of the site. When the CVS lease ends build a twelve story building along the south side of the parcel.

There are so many unique and interesting ways too incorporate a drive thru that doesn't involve surrounding a building with asphalt.

1 hour ago, TIm said:

There are so many unique and interesting ways too incorporate a drive thru that doesn't involve surrounding a building with asphalt.

It doesn’t currently have a drive thru though, unless something has changed as far as I know it hasn’t since I can remember for the past 16 years.

 

Funny that it says they have one on their website.

What's crappy is that one-story buildings were ever allowed here at all.

2 hours ago, DevolsDance said:

My understanding is that this CVS is kind of a lifeline for Westminister-Thurber. Early on in the process it was discussed how a huge chunk of the clientele walks across the street from Westminister-Thurber for all kind of things, like OTC drugs, small grab and go items, the pharmacy, etc.

Interesting. That only leads to more questions as to why CVS is so adamant about surface parking and a drive-thru when nearby residents are already walking to the store. 

 

2 hours ago, DevolsDance said:

Isn't CVS agreeing to the Lane & High project? I am pretty sure that will be a CVS with no/minimal impact drive-thru and is on the ground floor of a mixed use tower. So why are they demanding such a different project here? 

My thoughts exactly. I don't understand why they feel like they can forego parking and a drive thru on the corner of Lane and High but not Neil and Buttles.

1 hour ago, CMHOhio said:

Interesting. That only leads to more questions as to why CVS is so adamant about surface parking and a drive-thru when nearby residents are already walking to the store. 

 

My thoughts exactly. I don't understand why they feel like they can forego parking and a drive thru on the corner of Lane and High but not Neil and Buttles.

Bro threaten to build a Walgreens instead and see what concessions CVS makes 😂

52 minutes ago, jebleprls22 said:

Bro threaten to build a Walgreens instead and see what concessions CVS makes 😂

 

"what did you say" - CVS

 

Edited February 17, 20223 yr by DevolsDance

3 hours ago, CMHOhio said:

My thoughts exactly. I don't understand why they feel like they can forego parking and a drive thru on the corner of Lane and High but not Neil and Buttles.

I’m also recalling from the meeting that CVS had the audacity to request the drive through be on the outside of the building, and Casto had to fight to put it inside to hide it. 

 

I wonder if they could do something similar to the plan for Gravity 3.0? That way CVS gets their single story, and a drive thru would still be possible, but you could much better utilize the space. 
 

Even if CVS is being difficult, I don’t think that gives Castro an excuse for something so unimaginative and bland, and that wastes precious space. 

6 minutes ago, amped91 said:

 

I wonder if they could do something similar to the plan for Gravity 3.0? That way CVS gets their single story, and a drive thru would still be possible, but you could much better utilize the space. 
 

Even if CVS is being difficult, I don’t think that gives Castro an excuse for something so unimaginative and bland, and that wastes precious space. 

That is my exact thought. Just give cvs their 1 story at the corner and build a 10+ all the way around it, kind of like the State Farm house in UA that held out. 

Edited February 18, 20223 yr by VintageLife

5 minutes ago, amped91 said:

 

I wonder if they could do something similar to the plan for Gravity 3.0? That way CVS gets their single story, and a drive thru would still be possible, but you could much better utilize the space. 
 

Even if CVS is being difficult, I don’t think that gives Castro an excuse for something so unimaginative and bland, and that wastes precious space. 

And have the whole thing give some odes to the Victorian architecture of the area

Heritage Pointe Tower

 

 

The Harrison West Society posted updated renderings for the CVS on their Facebook page. There’s a public presentation next week. Still looks like a typical, crappy suburban out parcel. The door configuration and drive through pharmacy is totally car focused. Why isn’t there a door at the corner of Neil and Buttles? The two CVS locations on High at Lane and at Dodridge have two doors. 

 

Interesting they didn’t include updates for the other one story retail (the impending grocery store)… Wonder why? I’m holding out hope they’re adding height and not bc there are no changes

Edited March 12, 20223 yr by smjjms

6 hours ago, Pablo said:

The Harrison West Society posted updated renderings for the CVS on their Facebook page. There’s a public presentation next week. Still looks like a typical, crappy suburban out parcel. The door configuration and drive through pharmacy is totally car focused. Why isn’t there a door at the corner of Neil and Buttles? The two CVS locations on High at Lane and at Dodridge have two doors. 

 

Yeah that is still horrible, might as well leave the whole thing like it sits 

Edited March 12, 20223 yr by VintageLife

20 hours ago, VintageLife said:

Yeah that is still horrible, might as well leave the whole thing like it sits 

Oh, I don't think that’s the answer. CVS and Casto can do better than this. 

They're definitely not allowed to call this a "Mixed Use" project if every building is a single-use only... I don't care if it's a single parcel or not. That's not what Mixed-Use means.

On 3/12/2022 at 7:02 PM, Pablo said:

Oh, I don't think that’s the answer. CVS and Casto can do better than this. 

They can and they should. But if they won’t, I also would prefer the site stay as is until either CVS’s lease ends or they become  more agreeable to a better use for the property. 

I'm not sure about waiting on the lease. CVS and other major retail leases can be decades long. If it wasn't terribly long or there weren't significant penalties, CASTO would break it for a major development like this. These things are pretty ironclad and can hold the landowners by the b***s.   But like others have pointed put, why the difference in treatment for this one and the High and Lane One.

 

What fascinates me is the current location doesn't have a drive-thru to begin with so the insistence for it is beyond me as their clientele hasn't demanded it. And I'm not sure how much of the market they would gain with the addition of a drive-thru as the surrounding area continues to add density. 

 

If the inclination is to wait out a lease (for however long it will be), the existing structure can be shored up on the north side of CVS and the remainder demolished. Hell, they could probably adapt to add a drive-thru to the current structure as well with partial demolition. CVS is demanding no down time and such a renovation to the current structure could satisfy that demand as well. 

 

 

Of course this doesn't address the grocer demands. No grocer seems willing to take the chance on an urban store. So CASTO is stuck with the choice to lose the option for a grocer altogether or fulfill the community desires for a specific retail while sacrificing density. It probably wouldn't be feasible to build a space for a commercial grocer in an urban format without the agreement ahead of time. The other reality is many urban groceries are really just a grocery store with a garage. Even in some of the most population dense portions of New York and Chicago, most (not all, but a comfortable majority) are less mixed use than we might idealize. This also applies to the ever so coveted Trader Joe's. So perhaps, the best thing for this property is to drop the focus on a major retail grocer. Or expand the search to something like a Target who is much more comfortable in a mixed use build. Too bad CVS doesn't see the opportunity to try for both. I haven't seen any CVS versions that I recall, but Walgreens does have an urban model that also has a grocer component complete with a small deli counter, sushi bar, etc etc. It's not the most exhaustive grocery but it is better than nothing. 

 

 

Edited March 15, 20223 yr by DTCL11

43 minutes ago, DTCL11 said:

I'm not sure about waiting on the lease. CVS and other major retail leases can be decades long. If it wasn't terribly long or there weren't significant penalties, CASTO would break it for a major development like this. These things are pretty ironclad and can hold the landowners by the b***s.   But like others have pointed put, why the difference in treatment for this one and the High and Lane One.

 

What fascinates me is the current location doesn't have a drive-thru to begin with so the insistence for it is beyond me as their clientele hasn't demanded it. And I'm not sure how much of the market they would gain with the addition of a drive-thru as the surrounding area continues to add density. 

 

If the inclination is to wait out a lease (for however long it will be), the existing structure can be shored up on the north side of CVS and the remainder demolished. Hell, they could probably adapt to add a drive-thru to the current structure as well with partial demolition. CVS is demanding no down time and such a renovation to the current structure could satisfy that demand as well. 

 

 

Of course this doesn't address the grocer demands. No grocer seems willing to take the chance on an urban store. So CASTO is stuck with the choice to lose the option for a grocer altogether or fulfill the community desires for a specific retail while sacrificing density. It probably wouldn't be feasible to build a space for a commercial grocer in an urban format without the agreement ahead of time. The other reality is many urban groceries are really just a grocery store with a garage. Even in some of the most population dense portions of New York and Chicago, most (not all, but a comfortable majority) are less mixed use than we might idealize. This also applies to the ever so coveted Trader Joe's. So perhaps, the best thing for this property is to drop the focus on a major retail grocer. Or expand the search to something like a Target who is much more comfortable in a mixed use build. Too bad CVS doesn't see the opportunity to try for both. I haven't seen any CVS versions that I recall, but Walgreens does have an urban model that also has a grocer component complete with a small deli counter, sushi bar, etc etc. It's not the most exhaustive grocery but it is better than nothing. 

 

Ha! it would be great to get a Walgreens in if nothing else than to steal customers from the CVS and make it go out of business!  Why is CVS being so problematic? They are ok with being on the groundfloor of that 17 story proposal at Lane and HIgh, right? So what is the problem here. 

 

CVS fights good urbanism tooth and nail if they can. I remember Kunstler (before he jumped the shark) did a whole podcast about this one time a CVS was forced to do a two-story building by a city's zoning code. Instead of doing a traditional storefront downstairs with apartments or office above (even if they sat empty!) or even a two-story store the did some weird thing where they put the store on the second story with these long ramps leading up to the door and some low-level half-basement use like storage and a walk-in ATM -- not other stores or apartments.

 

Oh, found it!

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nnecapa/2899606283

CVS's lease might prevent Casto from making any improvements if it hurts CVS's visibility or parking. I'll bet they can't even tear down the old Giant Eagle.

 

Quote

Over time, a shopping center may fall into a period of stagnation due to many factors, including the declining business of some of the existing tenants, changing market conditions or the landlord's inattention to needed repairs. Expansion or redevelopment may be necessary to give a shopping center a new life. In the second generation of the life of a shopping center, the same restrictions that protected the first generation of tenants and the developer may keep the shopping center from adapting to changed conditions.

 

http://www.rosendorflaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ABA-Article-Shopping-Center-Restrictive-Covenants1.pdf

Blargh. So they have CASTO even more by the B***s. But you know, if CVS wanted to shut down, they can probably pull out with little negative impact to them and likely a stipulation no other pharmacy can take their place. 

 

I mean, I get WHY they have such crazy contracts but it is no less maddening and detrimental to good neighborhoods in this case. 

I'm no shopping centerologist, but it seems the leases of anchor retailers are tied into the financing of the center as a whole. Without the stability of a long term lease the developer might not be able to finance the center. That said, the proposed CVS still sucks.

24 minutes ago, Pablo said:

CVS's lease might prevent Casto from making any improvements if it hurts CVS's visibility or parking. I'll bet they can't even tear down the old Giant Eagle.

 

 

http://www.rosendorflaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/ABA-Article-Shopping-Center-Restrictive-Covenants1.pdf

Why the hell does a CVS need visibility?! I've never been driving, spotted a CVS and said to myself "oh boy! Do you see that? a CVS! Let's go in there, they're so cool!" Only time I'm looking for a CVS or something similar to stop is if I'm in an unfamiliar area and I forgot my sunblock or need some Advil or something. CVS is not destination shopping! They don't need to dominate the street front!

43 minutes ago, Pablo said:

I'm no shopping centerologist, but it seems the leases of anchor retailers are tied into the financing of the center as a whole. Without the stability of a long term lease the developer might not be able to finance the center. That said, the proposed CVS still sucks.

 

That is a big part. I guess I assumed that perhaps the shopping center predated the CVS. Looks like the building dates to 1994 (though it seems older than that). I'm not sure how to see if they were an original tenant unless someone else remembers way back then. 

 

Interesting tidbit, looks like Nationwide owned the land from 1981 to 2004. Nationwide Development Corp 1981-1997 and Nationwide Mutual 1997-2004.  NRI was founded (or evolved) in 1996 . I'm curious if Nationwide had some thought to make it offices at one point by transferring it to their Insurance Holdings rather than keep it under their development arm like the rest of the Arena District. Prior to Grandview Yard, any Nationwide offices that weren't leased appear to be under the Nationwide Mutual arm. It's moot at this point bit I do find it interesting. 

2 hours ago, TIm said:

Why the hell does a CVS need visibility?! I've never been driving, spotted a CVS and said to myself "oh boy! Do you see that? a CVS! Let's go in there, they're so cool!" Only time I'm looking for a CVS or something similar to stop is if I'm in an unfamiliar area and I forgot my sunblock or need some Advil or something. CVS is not destination shopping! They don't need to dominate the street front!

It also seems like having a good amount of retail above the cvs, people who live there might come down and grab a quick grocery item, when they need one or two items. You don’t always want to go to a big grocery when you just need a bag of chips. Seems like a dumb view to have on development form their standpoint. 

Edited March 15, 20223 yr by VintageLife

1 hour ago, DTCL11 said:

 

That is a big part. I guess I assumed that perhaps the shopping center predated the CVS. Looks like the building dates to 1994 (though it seems older than that). I'm not sure how to see if they were an original tenant unless someone else remembers way back then. 

 

Interesting tidbit, looks like Nationwide owned the land from 1981 to 2004. Nationwide Development Corp 1981-1997 and Nationwide Mutual 1997-2004.  NRI was founded (or evolved) in 1996 . I'm curious if Nationwide had some thought to make it offices at one point by transferring it to their Insurance Holdings rather than keep it under their development arm like the rest of the Arena District. Prior to Grandview Yard, any Nationwide offices that weren't leased appear to be under the Nationwide Mutual arm. It's moot at this point bit I do find it interesting. 

 

CVS wouldn't have been original since they weren't in this market in 1994 as far as I know. It could have been whoever they bought out to get into this market like SupeRX, Rexall or whatever.

15 minutes ago, VintageLife said:

It also seems like having a good amount of retail above the cvs, people who live there might come down and grab a quick grocery item, when they need one or two items. You don’t always want to go to a big grocery when you just need a bag of chips. Seems like a dumb view to have on development form their standpoint. 

 

It suxxxxxxx not having something like a Wallgreens or CVS around. I have to go to Kroger for everything.

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

 

It suxxxxxxx not having something like a Wallgreens or CVS around. I have to go to Kroger for everything.

Hell all I have to choose from is Dollar General or Family Dollar. Otherwise it is a 7 mile drive either east or southwest to even get to a Kroger. This little town sucks.

^There is a dollar store near me but it is further than the Kroger plus you have to sit through three more 3-4 phase lights each way so it's not helping the convenience factor at all. And I've never seen much I really want in them.

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

^There is a dollar store near me but it is further than the Kroger plus you have to sit through three more 3-4 phase lights each way so it's not helping the convenience factor at all. And I've never seen much I really want in them.

Not interested in David Spade's most popular movies on DVD I see.

33 minutes ago, TIm said:

Not interested in David Spade's most popular movies on DVD I see.

Joe Dirt sold in one of those extra thin DVD cases

I can understand having to bend over for CVS due to their existing lease, but why is the rest of the development still so underwhelming, particularly the other single story out building. 

 

This may an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have a denser residential development than a single story grocery development. Also, speaking as someone who lived in Harrison West from 2015-2018 I don't get the grocery need, there's a Giant Eagle Market District on 3rd, they even finally completed the sidewalks under the railroad bridge. I get closer is always nicer, but any time I wanted to get anything more than a 6 Pack (there was Ziggys for that) I wanted my car, because how many blocks can you walk with a load of groceries?  Plus, if you wanted some paper towels or a candy bar there's that CVS we all complained about. 

You can get a folding grocery dolly or little red wagon to walk larger amounts of groceries home.

8 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

^There is a dollar store near me but it is further than the Kroger plus you have to sit through three more 3-4 phase lights each way so it's not helping the convenience factor at all. And I've never seen much I really want in them.

I have been in those dollar stores here only a few times-I actually despise them and wish we would get another real grocery store again. Kroger was supposed to build a place on the north side of 40 just east of 142. There were supposed to be a 1000 unit development of housing, apartments, park space and space for an elementary school right across from it south of 40. Both have been stalled out for years. Lord knows with all of the new jobs that have come or are coming to West Jeff we could use the store and the housing, but maybe this little craptown is afraid of "the wrong people" moving into their little crap paradise.

 

I do almost nothing here except dwell-I go to Columbus for everything or sometimes to London. There is no "here' here 

 

32 minutes ago, 17thState said:

I can understand having to bend over for CVS due to their existing lease, but why is the rest of the development still so underwhelming, particularly the other single story out building. 

 

This may an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather have a denser residential development than a single story grocery development. Also, speaking as someone who lived in Harrison West from 2015-2018 I don't get the grocery need, there's a Giant Eagle Market District on 3rd, they even finally completed the sidewalks under the railroad bridge. I get closer is always nicer, but any time I wanted to get anything more than a 6 Pack (there was Ziggys for that) I wanted my car, because how many blocks can you walk with a load of groceries?  Plus, if you wanted some paper towels or a candy bar there's that CVS we all complained about. 

I would like a taller residential portion. Why can't they go to 12 floors? It is an attractive area and you have highrises just south of it.

That would also take care of the density part. There is a housing shortage for all kinds of housing and I can't help but think they could get tenants or sell condo units there. Goodale Park and the Short North are just a walk away. Hell if I had the money I would be more than happy to buy or rent in a highrise there. 

 

Developers here are just very risk averse and conservative, and with Intel and all, I hope they change their outlooks. We are going to boom and they should be helping us get ready for it.

58 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

You can get a folding grocery dolly or little red wagon to walk larger amounts of groceries home.

Fact. The former is the norm here in Queens. 

Edited March 16, 20223 yr by CMHOhio

 

“The Harrison West Society Wednesday evening voted in favor of rezoning the site, which is about 5 acres, for commercial use and apartments. 

 

Wednesday evening, Casto presented an updated design, with a massing that had more windows and height than the one presented in February. Casto said these changes were about as far as CVS would budge on the subject. 
 

The second building, closest to the corner of Neil and Collins avenues, would include about 21,000 square feet of leasable space. Casto is talking with a contingent tenant, which will be a grocer. No other details were disclosed about the tenant.
 

The Short North Civic Association will discuss the project at its meeting Thursday evening. After that, it will need to be approved by Columbus City Council.“

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2022/03/16/castos-proposed-neil-avenue-project-moving-forwar.html

26 minutes ago, amped91 said:

 

“The Harrison West Society Wednesday evening voted in favor of rezoning the site, which is about 5 acres, for commercial use and apartments. 

 

Wednesday evening, Casto presented an updated design, with a massing that had more windows and height than the one presented in February. Casto said these changes were about as far as CVS would budge on the subject. 
 

The second building, closest to the corner of Neil and Collins avenues, would include about 21,000 square feet of leasable space. Casto is talking with a contingent tenant, which will be a grocer. No other details were disclosed about the tenant.
 

The Short North Civic Association will discuss the project at its meeting Thursday evening. After that, it will need to be approved by Columbus City Council.“

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2022/03/16/castos-proposed-neil-avenue-project-moving-forwar.html

It still doesn’t explain why the second building can’t be mixed use. This project is horrible.

The grocer may have similar demands for the contingent offer. That would be my guess. 

 

The City Apartments built to accommodate a grocer and none have taken the bate. Even with a new space and plenty of parking and tons of new residents in an area likely to explode in population. A major grocer on ORR makes so much sense with the impending population boom, BRT, etc. Yes, the Clintonville GE and Krogers are nearby. The Grandview Yard Market District is close but those struggle with ease of transit access. So it seems like a no brainer. 

 

At the VERY least, get rid of the handful of parking spaces abutting Neil to allow for more buffer. 

 

Unless someone (CASTO) wants to sue or the city really wants to take on CVS... then it's probably a done deal. 

 

What a shame. Had all the potential for something really cool. At least there's a handful of apartments now? /s 

Columbus Underground put out this story about downtown CVS closing to “reduce store density”

https://columbusunderground.com/cvs-closing-downtown-columbus-store-we1/
 

absolutely mind boggling to read they’re getting rid of downtown to “reduce density” but throwing a fit about the Harrison west location when there 5 others within walking distance. 

13 minutes ago, smjjms said:

Columbus Underground put out this story about downtown CVS closing to “reduce store density”

https://columbusunderground.com/cvs-closing-downtown-columbus-store-we1/
 

absolutely mind boggling to read they’re getting rid of downtown to “reduce density” but throwing a fit about the Harrison west location when there 5 others within walking distance. 

I’m wondering if city council will push back against it also. It seems like they are actually pushing for density and this doesn’t do that. 

Time to bring in Walgreens!  Re: downtown location

 

It gives me Panera on campus vibes. Giving up on the high density location on High for the low density location with a focus on drive-thru... but in that case, Lane is evolving and that model will be ineffective there anyway and hopefully torn down for more density. 

 

 

Edited March 17, 20223 yr by DTCL11

Giant Eagle Redevelopment Gets Green Light from Neighborhood Group

 

The Harrison West Society voted last night to approve the latest plan from CASTO to redevelop the Thurber Village retail plaza.

 

The local company bought the property in 2005 and held a series of neighborhood meetings about redeveloping it in early 2020, indicating at the time both that CVS would likely be a part of any future plans, and that a grocery store could also be a part of the project.

 

A more detailed plan was brought back to the neighborhood last month, calling for a five-story apartment building on the western portion of site and two commercial buildings with a parking lot between them on the Neil Avenue side. Much of the discussion at that meeting focused on the commercial buildings, with some residents opposing what they saw as a suburban design not appropriate for a historic urban neighborhood.

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/giant-eagle-redevelopment-gets-green-light-from-neighborhood-group-bw1/

 

This is so disappointing. And considering the literal 4 10+ story towers immediately south this development should be so much more dense. But CASTO is a glorified strip-mall developer so this is 0 surprise. 

Heritage Pointe Tower

Another shot of Heritage Pointe Tower

 

16 minutes ago, CbusOrBust said:

Another shot of Heritage Pointe Tower

 

Oh wow, I like this viewpoint looking up north on Neil. Too bad the Giant Eagle redevelopment won't continue the wall of multi-level buildings up Neil...😥

Couple more of Heritage Pointe Tower