17 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

Non-employees are invisible and irrelevant to SHW execs. 

Well, they shared with us that one purpose of the new headquarters was to help recruit the next generation of employees.  Maybe they should start paying attention.  Just saying...! 

On 1/20/2022 at 11:59 PM, amped91 said:

^I believe full on, widespread remote work is ultimately a net negative for society. But, then again, my career isn’t possible to do remote, so maybe that’s just the jealousy talking lol

I agree, though like you my career is pretty impossible without being on site.  

 

I am sad for our children, who may become antisocial basement dwellers without any work or retail experiences.   There's more to life than sitting on Zoom calls and shopping for cheap crap on Amazon. 

4 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

I am sad for our children, who may become antisocial basement dwellers without any work or retail experiences.   There's more to life than sitting on Zoom calls and shopping for cheap crap on Amazon. 

This already very apparent with many young people in customer facing positions. The amount of blank stares they give in place of warm greetings or offers of assistance is quite telling of how insulated they were growing up. 

There's also multi-hour commutes, spending large amounts on dry cleaning, lunches, and work-related costs, running errands on evenings and weekends, spending small fortunes on daycare, and being emotionally and physically harassed and drained at the office.

 

I'll take these supposed blank stares any day of the week.

15 minutes ago, TBideon said:

There's also multi-hour commutes, spending large amounts on dry cleaning, lunches, and work-related costs, running errands on evenings and weekends, spending small fortunes on daycare, and being emotionally and physically harassed and drained at the office.

 

I'll take these supposed blank stares any day of the week.

It's a shame our business districts aren't also walkable residential areas with good schools.   Many of the problems above would be solved and more people leading happy and healthy lives.  

54 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I am sad for our children, who may become antisocial basement dwellers without any work or retail experiences.   There's more to life than sitting on Zoom calls and shopping for cheap crap on Amazon  

In 1983 at high school in England, our English Literature class read the short-story ‘The Machine Stops’ by EM Forster.  For a guy who is most famous for things like ‘A Room with a View’ and ‘Howard’s End’ it is quite an arresting read and a remarkable piece of foreshadowing for something written in 1909.

 

Our teacher had us read it to demonstrate to us that a good number of the ideas in Orwell’s ‘1984’ (which, of course was getting a lot of attention in 1983) were not necessarily new. Forster was nowhere near as dystopian, but the sense of being disconnected, alienated and dehumanized were all there. Even so, it all seemed like out-there science-fiction to us at the time. 

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

I agree, though like you my career is pretty impossible without being on site.  

 

I am sad for our children, who may become antisocial basement dwellers without any work or retail experiences.   There's more to life than sitting on Zoom calls and shopping for cheap crap on Amazon. 

All of that, plus I think it will end up furthering class divide too: I do this kind of work, therefore a commute/physical workspace/etc. are beneath me type of attitude. 

1 hour ago, roman totale XVII said:

Forster was nowhere near as dystopian, but the sense of being disconnected, alienated and dehumanized were all there. Even so, it all seemed like out-there science-fiction to us at the time. 

 

There's apparently still a Wall Street Journal from March 16, 2019 on my office desk from the last day I was in there lol. A co-worker told me it helps create that cozy feel of a post-cataclysmic dystopian future. 

^ Guy I know at one of the big employers in the area went back to the office, a couple of weeks ago, for the first time since March 2020. Guy in the office next to his starts taking down the pictures of his wife that literally covered his office walls. Turns out they’d had a brutal divorce in the intervening period. 

3 minutes ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ Guy I know at one of the big employers in the area went back to the office, a couple of weeks ago, for the first time since March 2020. Guy in the office next to his starts taking down the pictures of his wife that literally covered his office walls. Turns out they’d had a brutal divorce in the intervening period. 

 

Oh man. Yeah. By all accounts the stress of the pandemic has been life changing. 

29 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

There's apparently still a Wall Street Journal from March 16, 2019 on my office desk from the last day I was in there lol.

I assume 2020? Only seems like 3.3 years

Man, I feel pretty lucky compared to some of you. My life didn't change at all because of the pandemic. I was working at home before, during and after the pandemic. My wife worked for a grocery delivery before the pandemic and, of course, hers was an essential job during the pandemic. We traveled despite the pandemic. We walked (still do) to parks, restaurants (for take-out and al fresco dining), grocery stores, etc. and maintained human contact throughout. My son and his friends played at Lakewood parks. He spent only two-and-a-half months home from Lakewood schools from mid-March to the end of May 2020. He started at Menlo Park Academy in fall 2020 with the in-school option. We got him into a Russian summer day care last year. The biggest change to our lives is that my wife and son couldn't go back to Ukraine to visit family since 2019, and of course there's another reason now why they can't go back.

 

I guess when you live in a sociable, walkable neighborhood, human contact and life goes on.

 

Now about remote work, let's see how office buildings change to compete for workers. I am interested in hearing stories about what your workplace is doing to adapt. And if your workplace is moving (or building new) to avail more space, that would certainly be big news!

3 hours ago, amped91 said:

All of that, plus I think it will end up furthering class divide too: I do this kind of work, therefore a commute/physical workspace/etc. are beneath me type of attitude. 

I don't work in this environment, but I also feel like these kinds of corporate decisions are being driven by mid to upper level management guys who live in exurban McMansions are and perfectly fine not seeing people "different" from them every day.   Like many things corporate America, this could come back to haunt the company...but long after these guys are gone.   

58 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I don't work in this environment, but I also feel like these kinds of corporate decisions are being driven by mid to upper level management guys who live in exurban McMansions are and perfectly fine not seeing people "different" from them every day.   Like many things corporate America, this could come back to haunt the company...but long after these guys are gone.   

 

A paralegal friend is lamenting a company mandate to return part-time, spending 2 or 3 days a week in the office. His theory: the older partners of the firm are driving this, because at home their spouses aren't too impressed by them; they miss being a "big deal" and bossing people around in the office. 

Bossing people around is the worst part and least important part of being management. I try to avoid it at all cost. It makes me feel stupid -- like I've done something wrong rather than them.

22 hours ago, surfohio said:

A paralegal friend is lamenting a company mandate to return part-time, spending 2 or 3 days a week in the office. His theory: the older partners of the firm are driving this, because at home their spouses aren't too impressed by them; they miss being a "big deal" and bossing people around in the office. 

 

I have been saying throughout the pandemic that this is what's going to drive the return to office. Middle managers gonna middle manage. They want to return to the days of seeing butts in seats.

My company's local (Mayfield) and corporate offices (Green Bay, WI) never closed during the pandemic and remote work for employees in cities where we have offices is not an option, per our Fortune 500 trained CEO and the preference of many of us who grew up in that office environment (though I know we will lose some employees and some potential job candidates as a result... and should review that policy for competitive reasons, if anything...)

 

I am actually looking to expand our physical Cleveland-area office from 3 people to 12-15 people, ASAP. Offices are not going away for my company (retail and eCommerce product distribution and direct-to-consumer fulfillment) - though probably 50%+ of our retail buyers are still working remotely, 2 years later...

I work on expense and staffing planning for a 1,000 person department at my company.  That department is 50/50 hybrid remote and they cannot get any experienced talent to save their lives, and in fact we're losing our talent.  Plenty of entry level spots get filled, but our 10-20 year vets with tons of industry knowledge are getting poached with large bonuses and permanent WFH arrangements.  Maybe it's a bait and switch, but WFH may be here to stay for highly valuable positions.

On 7/5/2022 at 12:54 PM, TBideon said:

There's also multi-hour commutes, spending large amounts on dry cleaning, lunches, and work-related costs, running errands on evenings and weekends, spending small fortunes on daycare, and being emotionally and physically harassed and drained at the office.

 

I'll take these supposed blank stares any day of the week.

But isn't eliminating all of those things bad for the economy? My drycleaner is a locally owned small business. Same for daycare and lunch places. There won't be any places left to employee the people giving these blank stares.

It's an unfortunate effect, but I don't think it's my civic duty to keep those places afloat. Also, the individual and social benefits of working remotely are enormous. Less pollution with less traffic. More local businesses seeing patrons. More savings. More time to spend with family. More time for sleep, errands, hobbies, etc. That all has real positive utility.

 

And yes, at the expense of some businesses. Some will adapt; others will close. And daycare is an unbelievable beast of an expense; that's one industry I wouldn't mind seeing close if more cost efficient alternatives are available.

4 hours ago, TBideon said:

And daycare is an unbelievable beast of an expense; that's one industry I wouldn't mind seeing close if more cost efficient alternatives are available.

 

Can't wait for the no-more-daycare "raise" when our son starts kindergarten this fall.

Even with WfH daycare is still a necessity for most people - I've been fully remote since 2012, my wife mostly remote throughout the pandemic. Kid was in daycare pretty much the whole time daycare was open, it's just not realistic with our jobs for him to have been home. WfH does make things easier during the occasional sick day, we trade off and he gets a lot of extra screen time.

True about daycare and WfH. I can't get much done when my son is home. I love him dearly and he loves me and wants to play all the time. I don't want to set him in front the TV babysitter all day either. So it's daycare for us even though I work from home. 

Daycare is expensive! Should have always been a federal expense. But in the USA, we only care about apple pie and someone elses fetus.

Obviously the numbers range, and parents, please correct me if I'm mistaken since I don't have kids, but daycare is about $10,000-$15,000 a year.

 

That amount is just... staggering, and if remote work can help mitigate some of that financial burden, then all the better.

35 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Obviously the numbers range, and parents, please correct me if I'm mistaken since I don't have kids, but daycare is about $10,000-$15,000 a year.

 

That amount is just... staggering, and if remote work can help mitigate some of that financial burden, then all the better.

 

wHy DoN't PeOpLe WaNt To WoRk?

The annual earnings for a full-time minimum-wage worker is about $15,000 at the current federal level. And quite a few states allign their minimums to federal.

 

And companies wonder they can't hire.

Edited July 8, 20222 yr by TBideon

Someone's pretty stoked about remote work!

 

 

If Amazon gets their way and voice synthesis for anyone's voice finds adoption it's going to be tough on remote work since someone with that technology could fake anyone's approval or make them "say" things they didn't actually say.

 

Amazon previews Alexa capability that synthesizes a person’s voice from less than a minute of audio

 

https://www.geekwire.com/2022/amazon-previews-alexa-capability-that-synthesizes-a-persons-voice-from-less-than-a-minute-of-audio/

I don't have anything to contribute to this thread, except my own experience.  I've been working fully remote since March of 2020.  I've gone into the office only a few times, usually for some kind of company-sponsored morale booster.

 

The company (architecture/engineering/construction firm, BTW) has gone to a hybrid system for most employees, because some of the jobs really do require some face-to-face interaction. (3 days home, 2 days in the office, or vice versa, depending on how much physical interaction is really required)  But, you could request to be fully remote, and had to explain why it was beneficial to you.

 

In my case, it was easy to justify working from home.  I'm located in Youngstown, and I'm the only one in the Youngstown office who works on the projects I do.  The other people I work with are mostly in the Columbus office.  (and, the projects I work on are mostly located in Michigan, LOL)  So, whether I commute to the office, or stay home, I'm working remotely with other people, and a commute is just a waste of my time.

 

Having said all that, I do find that the isolation is starting to get to me.  I was never very social, and have almost zero social life.  So, the bit of social interaction I did get, was through work.  It's not enough to make me want to go back to the office, but I do need to work a little harder to get out, outside of work.  I'm also dismayed at the reports of businesses closing downtown, due to the lack of lunchtime foot traffic; I was a regular at several locations that are now closed.

22 hours ago, TBideon said:

Obviously the numbers range, and parents, please correct me if I'm mistaken since I don't have kids, but daycare is about $10,000-$15,000 a year.

 

That amount is just... staggering, and if remote work can help mitigate some of that financial burden, then all the better.

 

Yes, that range is about right. If most schools are like our daycare it gets cheaper as the kid gets older, teacher/kid ratios are larger for older kids (and less hands on post potty training), but also some actual teaching skills are needed. That's if you can find a place with openings to being with - we got on the list right after he was born, he was 10-11 months when he started.

 

We are extremely fortunate to have found a great school in the first place, and be in a position to afford it.

On 7/8/2022 at 4:07 PM, TBideon said:

Obviously the numbers range, and parents, please correct me if I'm mistaken since I don't have kids, but daycare is about $10,000-$15,000 a year.

 

That amount is just... staggering, and if remote work can help mitigate some of that financial burden, then all the better.

9 hours ago, mrCharlie said:

 

Yes, that range is about right. If most schools are like our daycare it gets cheaper as the kid gets older, teacher/kid ratios are larger for older kids (and less hands on post potty training), but also some actual teaching skills are needed. That's if you can find a place with openings to being with - we got on the list right after he was born, he was 10-11 months when he started.

 

We are extremely fortunate to have found a great school in the first place, and be in a position to afford it.

 

That price range is accurate for 5-day-a-week full-day.  And @mrCharlie is right about waitlist times; we got ours onto the waiting list well before they were born, and they usually started around 6 months.  The one year we had all three kids in daycare before our oldest started kindergarten (which is dramatically cheaper, especially with my parishioner discount, but of course only goes to 2:30 p.m., and starts to pile up again if you have to pay for aftercare every day, and most importantly, doesn't cover the summer) was rather taxing on us, and my wife and I have a respectable combined income.  The daycare did give us a multi-child discount but it was still around $35,000 for the year.  With the multi-child discount at the K-8 school, once all three of ours are there, it will be about $9000 per school year.  Then we just need to worry about summers.

 

Fortunately, our oldest is generally responsible enough that we can bring him home at the end of the school day and he doesn't get into trouble around the house for those few hours between the end of the school day and the end of the work day.  My wife has worked remotely full-time since 2018 (an absolutely life-changing development in more ways than one), so we have that option.  And our middle child starts kindergarten this fall, so we'll be back to just one kid in daycare unless we have a fourth one, in which case the clock obviously resets.

Cross-posted in the Pittsburgh development thread 

 

I'll be curious to see local tax filings next spring for 2022 -- the big cities could get crushed if large numbers claim to be working in the suburbs half of the time or more. 

Another tale of two Americas. Further disparities likely leading to more polarization. 
 

What Remote Work Debate? They’ve Been Back at the Office for a While.

 

“The competition for parking space is getting steeper. Commutes are inching longer. Workplace lounges are filling up with commotion as junior associates play cornhole. What return-to-office debate? In some parts of the country, it’s been settled.

“I know almost nobody in Columbus who is fully remote,” said Grant Blosser, 35, who works at a financial services firm.

 

In October 2020, Mr. Blosser started going back into his office in Columbus, Ohio, five days a week. He cracked jokes with the young analysts, one of whom recently dragged his team to hot yoga. (It “kicked our butts.”) He listened to his book club’s selection in the car (currently, a biography of Winston Churchill). It was a relief, he said, to feel the “separation of church and state” that came from leaving the house each day.

 

More than two years into the pandemic, American corporate workplaces have splintered. Some are nearly as full as they were before Covid-19 struck; others sit abandoned, printers switched off and Keurig cups collecting dust. Workers in America’s midsize and small cities have returned to the office in far greater numbers than those in the biggest U.S. cities. Some executives in large cities are hoping they’ll catch up, though they’ve been impeded by safety and health concerns about mass transit commutes, as well as competitive job markets where employees are more likely to call the shots.

 

In small cities — those with populations under 300,000 — the share of paid, full days worked from home dropped to 27 percent this spring from around 42 percent in October 2020. In the 10 largest U.S. cities, days worked from home shifted to roughly 38 percent from 50 percent in that same period, according to a team of researchers at Stanford and other institutions led by the economists Steven Davis, Nick Bloom and Jose Maria Barrero.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/01/business/return-to-office-battles.html

To supplement what amped91 was saying:

 

I don't agree with the underlying pro-office sentiment of the article, but this article reports that "7.4% of American workers are teleworking because of COVID, down from a pandemic-era high around 35% according to federal data."

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/05/work-from-home-elon-musk-remote-office-meetings

As Americans Work From Home, Europeans and Asians Head Back to the Office
 

“While U.S. offices are half empty three years into the Covid-19 pandemic, workplaces in Europe and Asia are bustling again.

 

Americans have embraced remote work and turned their backs on offices with greater regularity than their counterparts overseas. U.S. office occupancy stands at 40% to 60% of prepandemic levels, varying within that range by month and by city. That compares with a 70%-to-90% rate in Europe and the Middle East, according to JLL, a property-services firm that manages 4.6 billion square feet of real estate globally. 

 

R eturn to office was even more common in Asia, JLL said, where rates ranged from 80% to 110%—meaning that in some cities more people are in the office nowadays than before the pandemic.

 

Bigger homes, longer commutes and a tighter labor market help explain why Americans spend less time in the office than Europeans and Asians, workplace consultants say.”

 

https://apple.news/AFQsi0enbT4ipqeDaapH7xQ

2 hours ago, amped91 said:

As Americans Work From Home, Europeans and Asians Head Back to the Office
 

“While U.S. offices are half empty three years into the Covid-19 pandemic, workplaces in Europe and Asia are bustling again.

 

Americans have embraced remote work and turned their backs on offices with greater regularity than their counterparts overseas. U.S. office occupancy stands at 40% to 60% of prepandemic levels, varying within that range by month and by city. That compares with a 70%-to-90% rate in Europe and the Middle East, according to JLL, a property-services firm that manages 4.6 billion square feet of real estate globally. 

 

R eturn to office was even more common in Asia, JLL said, where rates ranged from 80% to 110%—meaning that in some cities more people are in the office nowadays than before the pandemic.

 

Bigger homes, longer commutes and a tighter labor market help explain why Americans spend less time in the office than Europeans and Asians, workplace consultants say.”

 

https://apple.news/AFQsi0enbT4ipqeDaapH7xQ

Americans are heading for our destiny...antisocial obese folks who only venture outside to hit a drive thru.  

15 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Americans are heading for our destiny...antisocial obese folks who only venture outside to hit a drive thru.  

 

Asocial, not "antisocial".  Selectively social, really.  Obesity has its own drawbacks.    There's always going to be a spectrum of what people do.

 

Historically, Europeans and especially Asians are less conscious of personal space than Americans are.  Some of us indeed like density and extraneous socialization, others endure it.  

 

As a disproportionate number of the people behind the tech revolution fall into the latter category, the megatrends driven by same have reduced the need to endure it.

 

The people who enjoy density now see less of it.  They understandably resent that.  But they have no more inherent right to tell those who do not how to live than vice versa.  And vice versa happens much less frequently.

 

People still socialize, it just takes different forms.   Online socialization is socialization, just the kind you can take a break from quickly.   

 

I shouldn't have to tell this group that has one of its regular get togethers scheduled for next week that online socialization can lead to other forms.  Hell, even my space loving, semisocial at best self made it once.

 

Projecting that trends will continue indefinitely is like saying if it was 30° at 1am and will be 53° at 1pm, then it will be 76° tomorrow at 1am, and so on and so forth.

 

Oh, to bring this more or less back on topic, work from home ties into this.   People socialize less at work these days in any case, and can often keep in touch with people online.

 

Edited March 1, 20232 yr by E Rocc

18 hours ago, amped91 said:

As Americans Work From Home, Europeans and Asians Head Back to the Office
 

“While U.S. offices are half empty three years into the Covid-19 pandemic, workplaces in Europe and Asia are bustling again.

 

Americans have embraced remote work and turned their backs on offices with greater regularity than their counterparts overseas. U.S. office occupancy stands at 40% to 60% of prepandemic levels, varying within that range by month and by city. That compares with a 70%-to-90% rate in Europe and the Middle East, according to JLL, a property-services firm that manages 4.6 billion square feet of real estate globally. 

 

R eturn to office was even more common in Asia, JLL said, where rates ranged from 80% to 110%—meaning that in some cities more people are in the office nowadays than before the pandemic.

 

Bigger homes, longer commutes and a tighter labor market help explain why Americans spend less time in the office than Europeans and Asians, workplace consultants say.”

 

https://apple.news/AFQsi0enbT4ipqeDaapH7xQ

I think it’s also worth mentioning that Europeans usually have better work life balance in general and are able to take longer vacations than most US workers. 
 

Just saw an article about many European companies moving to a 4 day work week, which would also be easier to do in the office. 

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Asocial, not "antisocial".  Selectively social, really.  Obesity has its own drawbacks.    There's always going to be a spectrum of what people do.

 

Historically, Europeans and especially Asians are less conscious of personal space than Americans are.  Some of us indeed like density and extraneous socialization, others endure it.  

 

As a disproportionate number of the people behind the tech revolution fall into the latter category, the megatrends driven by same have reduced the need to endure it.

 

The people who enjoy density now see less of it.  They understandably resent that.  But they have no more inherent right to tell those who do not how to live than vice versa.  And vice versa happens much less frequently.

 

People still socialize, it just takes different forms.   Online socialization is socialization, just the kind you can take a break from quickly.   

 

I shouldn't have to tell this group that has one of its regular get togethers scheduled for next week that online socialization can lead to other forms.  Hell, even my space loving, semisocial at best self made it once.

 

Projecting that trends will continue indefinitely is like saying if it was 30° at 1am and will be 53° at 1pm, then it will be 76° tomorrow at 1am, and so on and so forth.

 

Oh, to bring this more or less back on topic, work from home ties into this.   People socialize less at work these days in any case, and can often keep in touch with people online.

 

 

asocial or selective social is anti-social. and anti-urban. and will lead to even more serious problems. bubbles are not healthy at all.

 

One thing is for sure: emptying cities are not ideal for people who are pro-city, and remote work/hybrid is a major contributor to decline. Cities have to respond with higher property taxes or other tax schemes to make budget; meanwhile, workers, residents and tourists encounter higher crime and derelicts, as there are fewer normal people taking trains and walking the streets. Restaurants, retail and ancilary businesses close or have reduced hours, residential conversions are financially unattainable in many cases, and so on. Who wants to work in a half empty building or walk around a depleted city full of For Lease signs and little else? You need people on the streets and in buildings; otherwise, it feels abandoned.

 

I can't blame mayors compelling Suite C types to bring in people.

 

COVID really f-d up the ecosystem.

10 minutes ago, TBideon said:

One thing is for sure: emptying cities are not ideal for people who are pro-city, and remote work/hybrid is a major contributor to decline. Cities have to respond with higher property taxes or other tax schemes to make budget; meanwhile, workers, residents and tourists encounter higher crime and derelicts, as there are fewer normal people taking trains and walking the streets. Restaurants, retail and ancilary businesses close or have reduced hours, residential conversions are financially unattainable in many cases, and so on. Who wants to work in a half empty building or walk around a depleted city full of For Lease signs and little else? You need people on the streets and in buildings; otherwise, it feels abandoned.

 

I can't blame mayors compelling Suite C types to bring in people.

 

COVID really f-d up the ecosystem.

 

The emphasized part is the one I wonder about the most.  What makes residential conversions of towers with decent bones so tough?  Residential prices (urban and suburban) continue to climb while office vacancies will put downward pressure on rents and, by extension, make office space less valuable to property owners.

 

Even older residential units in downtown Cleveland fetch pretty good rents.  Heck, the few units that are available here in downtown Akron get better rents than just about anywhere else in the city that isn't a new, luxury build.

Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but we should've never concentrated all of our jobs downtown and emptied them of residences in the 20th Century. 

 

Cities in Europe are largely back to normal because it's typically easy for people to get to their jobs, and all jobs aren't in the center of the city like in the US. People actually live near their work. There are obvious exceptions to this, but as a general rule, the built environment makes returning to the office more tenable in Europe than in the US. ETA: homes in the US are also larger than Europe, and that allows people to convert their "spare bedroom" into a WFH office, which is pretty convenient. Way fewer Europeans have that luxury, so they are working from their kitchens or their own bedrooms when working from home.

 

We put all of our eggs in one basket, and then the basket fell. Diversifying our central cities to promote residential conversions and development should be a priority now more than ever. It also brings a lot of the tax base into the city if we ever have a similar event that wreaks havoc on our normal lives.

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

 

asocial or selective social is anti-social. and anti-urban. and will lead to even more serious problems. bubbles are not healthy at all.

 

 

That's an opinion.   There are times when they are very healthy.   Not everyone is the same and needs to live the same way.

24 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

The emphasized part is the one I wonder about the most.  What makes residential conversions of towers with decent bones so tough?  Residential prices (urban and suburban) continue to climb while office vacancies will put downward pressure on rents and, by extension, make office space less valuable to property owners.

 

Even older residential units in downtown Cleveland fetch pretty good rents.  Heck, the few units that are available here in downtown Akron get better rents than just about anywhere else in the city that isn't a new, luxury build.

 

Probably overly comprehensive and detailed regulations, along with permitting and inspection requirements.  Micromanagement by bureaucrats with authority but no responsibility.

 

 I’m reminded of Rodney Dangerfield in “Back To School” explaining to the professor what he had left out of his calculations.  ADA may play a role as well.  

22 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

The emphasized part is the one I wonder about the most.  What makes residential conversions of towers with decent bones so tough?  Residential prices (urban and suburban) continue to climb while office vacancies will put downward pressure on rents and, by extension, make office space less valuable to property owners.

 

Even older residential units in downtown Cleveland fetch pretty good rents.  Heck, the few units that are available here in downtown Akron get better rents than just about anywhere else in the city that isn't a new, luxury build.

Two-fold.

 

First, it's really expensive. Ignoring all zoning and administrative noise, commercial-to-residential conversions generally cost $100-$500/square foot. That's quite the crazy range, right? So Key Tower, at 1.5 million square feet, would cost $150 million-$750 million. Someone's got to foot the bill.

 

Second, commercial tenants pay a lot more money indefinitely, so commercial owners would rather let a buidling and space sit empty during the bad days, then make it back when things pick up when/if white and blue collars return.

 

A restaurant in downtown Chicago pays $50,000/month or so in rent for 8000 square feet or so. That's a pretty appealing number, even if the building is empty for months when a restaurant doesn't make it.

 

Some generalities above, but you get my drift.

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

One thing is for sure: emptying cities are not ideal for people who are pro-city, and remote work/hybrid is a major contributor to decline. Cities have to respond with higher property taxes or other tax schemes to make budget; meanwhile, workers, residents and tourists encounter higher crime and derelicts, as there are fewer normal people taking trains and walking the streets. Restaurants, retail and ancilary businesses close or have reduced hours, residential conversions are financially unattainable in many cases, and so on. Who wants to work in a half empty building or walk around a depleted city full of For Lease signs and little else? You need people on the streets and in buildings; otherwise, it feels abandoned.

 

I can't blame mayors compelling Suite C types to bring in people.

 

COVID really f-d up the ecosystem.

 

The thing is, if a company is saving money by having their employees work from home, and the majority of the employees prefer it, what business does the city government have trying to force them to do otherwise? 

 

The company already needs less space, being harassed for following a policy that both companies and employees prefer is more likely to trigger moves to the suburbs than anything else.

 

It can also discourage existing suburban companies from moving in.   Remember that Progressive didn’t move in because their employees at least wanted integral parking in their building, the city opposed that, and Lewis cared what his people thought.

It's tricky and requires competent city leadership and business leaders with civic pride and awareness, both of which are in short order.

 

But at the end of the day, a city government needs a city to function, which requires a sizeable workforce population. Otherwise, the city is just a slowly sinking ship.

 

And some of these companies might as well go to the suburbs if they're no longer meaningfuly contributing to the city in the first place. That threat, often empty, shouldn't disincent city leaders from exploring ways to encourage people on the streets and in buildings.

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

That's an opinion.   There are times when they are very healthy.   Not everyone is the same and needs to live the same way.

 

you moved the goalposts. "there are times" is not the same thing as full on leading an asocial lifestyle as you advocated. "there are times" is not a majority of time spent in a bubble. in other words, "there are times" you need to work alone awhile or read a book quietly, of course, but more than that is anti-social, unhealthy personally and bad for your community.