March 21, 20232 yr Channel 3 already says it's arson "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 21, 20232 yr 13 hours ago, JohnSummit said: It’s not uncommon for fire departments to do training in structures slated for demolition soon. Suspect that is the case here. I was playing platform tennis in the flats last night and saw flames coming from the windows overlooking the flats. So, I called the fire department and said "that building you guys just put out on W. 25th--it's on fire again." And then he said they would dispatch crews. Definitely was not a training exercise. Edited March 21, 20232 yr by smimes Pics added
March 21, 20232 yr Will this have impacts on the hill stabilization project? My immediate thought was "well the building was coming down anyway, shouldn't have any real impact". I do wonder if the fact that this is suspected arson will cause an investigation. That pending investigation could drag on and prevent further work from being completed until its completed.
March 21, 20232 yr Maybe it's because I'm hyper fixated on UO centric stuff but that one comment in the insta post - "prime real estate...or it was" (bad paraphrasing) - irks me. The fact that so many folks have zero clue that this is about to be a massive transformative park is kind of wild. Seems like some world class signage would be helpful to get the word out, I'll call Marie and see what she can cook up.
March 21, 20232 yr 13 minutes ago, dastler said: Will this have impacts on the hill stabilization project? My immediate thought was "well the building was coming down anyway, shouldn't have any real impact". I do wonder if the fact that this is suspected arson will cause an investigation. That pending investigation could drag on and prevent further work from being completed until its completed. It will not. It actually speeds up demolition per Ohio City Inc rep Chris Schmitt.
March 22, 20232 yr The missing piece for this project is a "Quarter Phase 1" type project maybe slightly smaller. The current uses directly across from this are definitely underwhelming. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
March 23, 20232 yr 7 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: The missing piece for this project is a "Quarter Phase 1" type project maybe slightly smaller. The current uses directly across from this are definitely underwhelming. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk I think it's a chicken or the egg thing. Do you get the development first that leads to a park or does the park spur development? My bet is once this park gets underway for real post legal battle we'll see plenty of interest in developing some plots across the street. Or maybe that's just my wishful thinking I have lol
March 23, 20232 yr Look forward to that massive cleveland clinic parking lot disappearing and maybe this spurs something for the WSM parking lots
March 23, 20232 yr I'm surprised, given all the development in Ohio City recently, that the non Cleveland Clinic parcels (it is going to be tough for them to give up their parking), on the western side of W 25th nearer to Detroit are still under used. Ken might be in a better position to answer this question, but I wonder if the problem might be the same thing that is occurring on Detroit closer to Gordon Square. That is, property owners with unrealistic opinions as to the value of their holdings who are just sitting on them waiting for the goose that will lay the golden egg. Once these lots are developed I am hoping for some height here. Maybe even buildings that will need variances.
March 23, 20232 yr 12 minutes ago, Htsguy said: I'm surprised, given all the development in Ohio City recently, that the non Cleveland Clinic parcels (it is going to be tough for them to give up their parking), on the western side of W 25th nearer to Detroit are still under used. Ken might be in a better position to answer this question, but I wonder if the problem might be the same thing that is occurring on Detroit closer to Gordon Square. That is, property owners with unrealistic opinions as to the value of their holdings who are just sitting on them waiting for the goose that will lay the golden egg. Once these lots are developed I am hoping for some height here. Maybe even buildings that will need variances. Not that I like these lots being underutilized, but the owners may have better reason to think the value of these lots do increase in the near-term between the completion of Irishtown Bend and the planned redesign of W25th here. If the value increases enough maybe the Clinic would be willing to lease the air rights over their lot for development so they can retain their parking and we can get some density.
March 23, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, Luke_S said: Not that I like these lots being underutilized, but the owners may have better reason to think the value of these lots do increase in the near-term between the completion of Irishtown Bend and the planned redesign of W25th here. If the value increases enough maybe the Clinic would be willing to lease the air rights over their lot for development so they can retain their parking and we can get some density. Just a heads up that there are no air rights (in a parcel sense) at this site currently. To put my parcel nerd cap on, the majority of air rights belong to the Terminal Tower/Higbees complex, Airport has a few, Lumen has a couple (their parking deck, I put those in 🤓), and some scattered throughout (there was actually one where the county building is, but I think they bought that imaginary cube). Not sure if creating air rights would be worth the hassle vs figuring out a way to build and lease out the structure. PS - not to say they couldn't create air parcels, it's just they don't exist at this time. Edited March 23, 20232 yr by GISguy
March 23, 20232 yr Seems to me the empty lots on the west side of 25th across from the planned park will have the best views and one of the best locations in Cleveland. Imagine 5 years from now. You're out on your balcony on the 20th floor. It's a beautiful summer evening. The skyline is arrayed before you and the lights are just coming on. There's lot's of foot traffic as people enjoy the immense curving hillside park that stretches down to the river boardwalk. You're thinking "Should l linger here a little longer and enjoy the view or head out to grab some late dinner at any number of neighborhood restaurants?" Either way you are living a civilized life at a fraction of the price this would have cost you if you hadn't moved here from that coastal city last year. Not bad. Not bad at all Cleveland.
March 23, 20232 yr 28 minutes ago, cadmen said: Seems to me the empty lots on the west side of 25th across from the planned park will have the best views and one of the best locations in Cleveland. Imagine 5 years from now. You're out on your balcony on the 20th floor. It's a beautiful summer evening. The skyline is arrayed before you and the lights are just coming on. There's lot's of foot traffic as people enjoy the immense curving hillside park that stretches down to the river boardwalk. You're thinking "Should l linger here a little longer and enjoy the view or head out to grab some late dinner at any number of neighborhood restaurants?" Either way you are living a civilized life at a fraction of the price this would have cost you if you hadn't moved here from that coastal city last year. Not bad. Not bad at all Cleveland. And this dream is dashed by the Design Review Board because it blocks out the steeple of a church five miles away and is planned to be too close to the road, so instead it becomes a parking deck with storefronts that are too small to put anything meaningful in. Okaaaay time to get coffee lol
March 23, 20232 yr 58 minutes ago, cadmen said: Seems to me the empty lots on the west side of 25th across from the planned park will have the best views and one of the best locations in Cleveland. Imagine 5 years from now. You're out on your balcony on the 20th floor. It's a beautiful summer evening. The skyline is arrayed before you and the lights are just coming on. There's lot's of foot traffic as people enjoy the immense curving hillside park that stretches down to the river boardwalk. You're thinking "Should l linger here a little longer and enjoy the view or head out to grab some late dinner at any number of neighborhood restaurants?" Either way you are living a civilized life at a fraction of the price this would have cost you if you hadn't moved here from that coastal city last year. Not bad. Not bad at all Cleveland. I think Bridgeworks could provide something very close to that experience, and it might be much closer to fruition.
March 23, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, cadmen said: Seems to me the empty lots on the west side of 25th across from the planned park will have the best views and one of the best locations in Cleveland. Speaking of which what happened to the Hulett Hotel proposal? Work actually started, I believe, and then all went silent. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
March 23, 20232 yr https://www.instagram.com/p/CqIgGtLDPEt/ unknown_318879300_1491192771412109_134687562076615597_n.mp4 Edited March 23, 20232 yr by downtownjoe
March 23, 20232 yr Borrowing from the Playhouse Square thread, but these are the types of lighting elements I hope we get to see throughout the park once its built:
March 23, 20232 yr ^Sort of what you would see in many of the large parks in London. Like them as well but they look expensive.
March 23, 20232 yr I know this is all just hypothetical right now - but I would think that they would have to make sure any lighting would tie in or work with the chandelier.
March 23, 20232 yr 4 hours ago, Htsguy said: I'm surprised, given all the development in Ohio City recently, that the non Cleveland Clinic parcels (it is going to be tough for them to give up their parking), on the western side of W 25th nearer to Detroit are still under used. I'd be ecstatic if we could just get a narrow strip developed fronting the street from Bookhouse to Tabletop. The Clinic could still keep the vast majority of their beloved surface lots.
March 23, 20232 yr Love Bookhouse - was about to say you really have to want to go there because it's so isolated...then I remember how much money I've spent at Noble Beast...but yes, if you're coming from that strip, it's so quiet/dead past Kan Zaaman. PS- I know during front a few years back there was a big hubub about that community center being revamped into a OHC welcome center, guessing that died with the pandemic?
March 23, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, Dougal said: Speaking of which what happened to the Hulett Hotel proposal? Work actually started, I believe, and then all went silent. I’ve been wondering that too. Around 2017/18 it was a thing and IIRC even had a website. Then it went quiet. Then a banner appeared on the building, but nothing else happened. Then the banner disappeared about 12-18 months ago and silence since. I assume it’s dead. My hovercraft is full of eels
March 23, 20232 yr Can’t help but feel this is exactly what B**** G**** wanted all along - another exclusive restaurant deal on public property. For me it’s just another place never to step foot in. My hovercraft is full of eels
March 23, 20232 yr I wonder if the fire got Bobby thinking he better take the deal. An 18000sf restaurant requires a significant investment still. Might be a cool feature to the park. Trying to look on the brightside. The sight lines from whatever restaurant will be incredible.
March 23, 20232 yr Makes me feel icky to give him a nice prime restaurant space in a public park but I'm happy a deal could be made where they get rid of that awful billboard and building
March 23, 20232 yr 6 hours ago, ASP1984 said: Borrowing from the Playhouse Square thread, but these are the types of lighting elements I hope we get to see throughout the park once its built: Columbus has a similar fixture installed in their riverfront park. I assume it's an off-the-shelf design that can be easily purchased. Not quite the same caliber feel as the European examples but still nice over standard lighting IMO https://goo.gl/maps/nPLEXc7dW8jDpQ2j9 Edited March 23, 20232 yr by NW24HX
March 23, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, marty15 said: I wonder if the fire got Bobby thinking he better take the deal. An 18000sf restaurant requires a significant investment still. Might be a cool feature to the park. Trying to look on the brightside. The sight lines from whatever restaurant will be incredible. Actually, could we bring back Royal Castle in that location? I used to love em by the six pack.
March 24, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, NW24HX said: Columbus has a similar fixture installed in their riverfront park. I assume it's an off-the-shelf design that can be easily purchased. Not quite the same caliber feel as the European examples but still nice over standard lighting IMO https://goo.gl/maps/nPLEXc7dW8jDpQ2j9 Not a fan of the ye olde Cleveland vibe. Would prefer more of an art deco flavor aka the Guardians on the bridge and the older downtown buildings.
March 24, 20232 yr 48 minutes ago, OldEnough said: Not a fan of the ye olde Cleveland vibe. Would prefer more of an art deco flavor aka the Guardians on the bridge and the older downtown buildings. Agree - Greyhound Station and/or brutalist vibes
March 24, 20232 yr Irishtown Bend Park stakeholders announce deal for George property By Ken Prendergast / March 23, 2023 Partners working together on the transformational Irishtown Bend Park project have reached a tentative settlement agreement today following a lawsuit by an affiliate of the George family against the use of eminent domain to acquire their land for the project. Terms of the deal were not officially disclosed at this time but it appears to be a really good deal for the Georges. MORE https://neo-trans.blog/2023/03/23/irishtown-bend-park-stakeholders-acquire-george-property/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 24, 20232 yr 9 hours ago, Whipjacka said: The deal makes sense. I think the case for eminent domain was pretty weak. I disagree. I believe it was a strong case and if it was in Probate Court where it belonged the matter would have probably been decided by now and in favor of the Port.
March 24, 20232 yr 9 hours ago, Whipjacka said: The deal makes sense. I think the case for eminent domain was pretty weak. I don't understand what this means. When the government wants to take land for a public purpose, like in this case the park, the only thing for the court to decide is the fair market value. There's nothing else for the government to prove, no case to make.
March 24, 20232 yr Whatever the terms of the deal are I hope it does not include any room for parking. Not even a spot for George (especially not a spot for George). The last thing this jewel of a park needs is a parking lot at at this key vantage point.
March 24, 20232 yr 14 minutes ago, Htsguy said: I disagree. I believe it was a strong case and if it was in Probate Court where it belonged the matter would have probably been decided by now and in favor of the Port. Maybe the Port had a strong case. but the George argument would be it is a money-generating property and the park can exist without that parcel. You could also cast doubt on the stability study as being politically motivated - saying a 60 year old building that hasn't moved an inch since it was built is going to cause a landslide and this only becoming an issue once the city has designs to use the hillside for something. The failure was in not securing the property from the start. George, as disliked as he may be, bought it fair-and-square.
March 24, 20232 yr 22 minutes ago, Whipjacka said: bought it fair-and-square. He certainly bought it...
March 24, 20232 yr 42 minutes ago, Whipjacka said: You could also cast doubt on the stability study as being politically motivated - saying a 60 year old building that hasn't moved an inch since it was built is going to cause a landslide and this only becoming an issue once the city has designs to use the hillside for something. The study was completed before George bought the property.
March 24, 20232 yr A good case for the new building to get slow walked through all the city departments lol. Maybe we’ll see it in 15 years.
March 24, 20232 yr 22 hours ago, CleveFan said: I know this is all just hypothetical right now - but I would think that they would have to make sure any lighting would tie in or work with the chandelier. Yesterday I noticed there are some at least on the same design spectrum, but with less frill, on the other side of the river in the Flats. If we got these, for consistency's sake, I'd be happy:
March 24, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, Htsguy said: I disagree. I believe it was a strong case and if it was in Probate Court where it belonged the matter would have probably been decided by now and in favor of the Port. Agreed - I actually think the E.D. case was a slam dunk
March 24, 20232 yr Is this essentially a settlement, because he won't be able to build anything there without parking? The parcel doesn't look large enough to support a building and a garage.
March 24, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, math said: Is this essentially a settlement, because he won't be able to build anything there without parking? The parcel doesn't look large enough to support a building and a garage. It doesn't. He has to get a variance from BZA to not have the requisite parking on site. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 24, 20232 yr 33 minutes ago, math said: But what motivation would there be to grant a variance? It seems odd that they can strike a legally binding deal with there being the real possibility they get denied a variance. Then again, its also hard to imagine them striking a deal based on guaranteeing one. Seems like a leap of faith, if you're the Georges. And if its the latter, I look forward to watching them faceplant while getting dragged in public meetings which, as a reminder, the public will be free to attend.
March 24, 20232 yr 6 minutes ago, ASP1984 said: It seems odd that they can strike a legally binding deal with there being the real possibility they get denied a variance. Then again, its also hard to imagine them striking a deal based on guaranteeing one. Seems like a leap of faith, if you're the Georges. And if its the latter, I look forward to watching them faceplant while getting dragged in public meetings which, as a reminder, the public will be free to attend. Once the park is finished, and from all indications, it’s going to look pretty grand. Granting a variance could be a tall order.
March 24, 20232 yr I know there’s hurdles still ahead - and God only knows what the restaurant design will be - but if they do it right - the effect could be reminiscent of The Boathouse in Central Park - where you essentially have a restaurant in the middle of a park - and, of course, it’s a major tourist attraction. I could care less about The George’s and how they’ll benefit - but it could become a unique Cleveland attraction. And I’m all for that. Plus, this park is going to do wonders for beautifying the vista between downtown and Ohio City - and it can only help potential developers of a few possible new nearby high rise residential buildings. Hopefully Edited March 24, 20232 yr by CleveFan
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