With Bibb's blowout win, he certainly has a mandate for change.  Some of the things I'm looking forward to:

- Removal of the jersey barriers from Public Square.

- Spinning off management of West Side Market to a dedicated non-profit, enabling infrastructure investment, quality management, and a renewed hope for the future of this gem.

Some other relatively easy wins I hope the administration embraces:

- Traffic light signal prioritization for the HealthLine and any other BRT

- Smart parking meters downtown that encourage regular turnover. Use proceeds to fund transit.

- Superior Midway protected bike lanes from Public Square to E. 55th

- Lorain cycle track

Much harder but absolutely worth pursuing:

- Police reform

- Form based code and elimination of parking minimums near transit

- Aggressively pursue passenger rail. Any improved connections to Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and/or Columbus are worth pursuing at any speeds possible. (And the multi-modal transit center should be at Terminal Tower.)

- Lakefront connections. The Haslam's proposal looks nice.  I think any landbridge should have a protected portion (either two levels or a long glass hallway) so that it is usable year-round)

- Investment in left-behind neighborhoods. (I'd prefer to concentrate on just a few rather than spreading out efforts too wide and therefore too thin, as I think the former will have a bigger impact.)

- Huron/Euclid subway and/or Waterfront extension downtown loop. (I prefer the former, but anything to improve rapid rail is worthwhile.)

- Advocate for extended Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad to downtown.

- Mergers w East Cleveland, Linndale, and Newburgh Heights (EXTREMELY important for this to be on Cleveland's terms - not the hot garbage EC city council tried to propose last time around. Kelley was right to flatly reject that proposal.)

- Figure out how to make the lake accessible around the exterior of Burke.

 

The exciting thing is that most of these have at least been discussed by Bibb.  I look forward to this administration.

Some news coverage and interviews:

 

 

Cleveland's first millennial mayor lays out his vision for police reform:

https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/11/12/cleveland-mayor-justin-bibb

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

With Bibb's blowout win, he certainly has a mandate for change.  Some of the things I'm looking forward to:

- Removal of the jersey barriers from Public Square.

- Spinning off management of West Side Market to a dedicated non-profit, enabling infrastructure investment, quality management, and a renewed hope for the future of this gem.

Some other relatively easy wins I hope the administration embraces:

- Traffic light signal prioritization for the HealthLine and any other BRT

- Smart parking meters downtown that encourage regular turnover. Use proceeds to fund transit.

- Superior Midway protected bike lanes from Public Square to E. 55th

- Lorain cycle track

I've had similar thoughts, there are several easy wins that the last administration just left to fester. Bibb could win over some detractors and get some momentum if he can knock some of these out in the first 100 days. Particularly the first two, which have nearly 100% agreement throughout the city. The other four aren't quite as much of layups, but still present real opportunities for wins if executed well.

 

The rest of your list is a combination of difficult and/or controversial things. I hope his administration will be wise enough to collect on all those easy wins first as they will benefit the whole city in addition to himself. Leave the difficult and controversial until after the easier and broadly agreed upon things have been adaequately addressed. 

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

I've had similar thoughts, there are several easy wins that the last administration just left to fester. Bibb could win over some detractors and get some momentum if he can knock some of these out in the first 100 days. Particularly the first two, which have nearly 100% agreement throughout the city. The other four aren't quite as much of layups, but still present real opportunities for wins if executed well.

 

The rest of your list is a combination of difficult and/or controversial things. I hope his administration will be wise enough to collect on all those easy wins first as they will benefit the whole city in addition to himself. Leave the difficult and controversial until after the easier and broadly agreed upon things have been adaequately addressed. 

Fully agree that the easy stuff needs to happen first. I do think that coalition building on the controversial and otherwise hard things needs to happen early, otherwise he’ll run out of time to execute.  If building consensus on these controversial proposals was easy, it’d already be done. 

The Bibb administration has opened the suggestion box :

 

Good national publicity 

 

Bibb has brought together a lot of experienced people from diverse backgrounds to advise him through the transition.

 

ideastream: Justin Bibb names Cleveland mayoral transition advisors, seeks applicants for top city jobs.

 

https://www.ideastream.org/news/justin-bibb-names-cleveland-mayoral-transition-advisors-seeks-applicants-for-top-city-jobs

34 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

Bibb has brought together a lot of experienced people from diverse backgrounds to advise him through the transition.

 

ideastream: Justin Bibb names Cleveland mayoral transition advisors, seeks applicants for top city jobs.

 

https://www.ideastream.org/news/justin-bibb-names-cleveland-mayoral-transition-advisors-seeks-applicants-for-top-city-jobs

 

Lots of heavy hitters on this list, I'm so here for it. 

 

Back on the first call I was on with him he said he'd bring in the best and brightest and this is him keeping to his word!

I was on that same call....And he has really brought in some fantastic people!!!! I've never been more optimistic about the future of this city!

^ wow -- i had read about acton, but all this is all really great to hear.

On 12/2/2021 at 9:29 AM, GISguy said:

 

Lots of heavy hitters on this list, I'm so here for it. 

 

Back on the first call I was on with him he said he'd bring in the best and brightest and this is him keeping to his word!

I wonder how resistant the bureaucracy will be to these kinds of changes at the top.   Many of the leaders there have been entrenched for decades.    Darnell Brown, the current Chief Operations Officer, has never worked for anyone but the City of Cleveland... 

On 11/14/2021 at 9:56 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

With Bibb's blowout win, he certainly has a mandate for change.  Some of the things I'm looking forward to:

- Removal of the jersey barriers from Public Square.

- Spinning off management of West Side Market to a dedicated non-profit, enabling infrastructure investment, quality management, and a renewed hope for the future of this gem.

Some other relatively easy wins I hope the administration embraces:

- Traffic light signal prioritization for the HealthLine and any other BRT

- Smart parking meters downtown that encourage regular turnover. Use proceeds to fund transit.

- Superior Midway protected bike lanes from Public Square to E. 55th

- Lorain cycle track

Much harder but absolutely worth pursuing:

- Police reform

- Form based code and elimination of parking minimums near transit

- Aggressively pursue passenger rail. Any improved connections to Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and/or Columbus are worth pursuing at any speeds possible. (And the multi-modal transit center should be at Terminal Tower.)

- Lakefront connections. The Haslam's proposal looks nice.  I think any landbridge should have a protected portion (either two levels or a long glass hallway) so that it is usable year-round)

- Investment in left-behind neighborhoods. (I'd prefer to concentrate on just a few rather than spreading out efforts too wide and therefore too thin, as I think the former will have a bigger impact.)

- Huron/Euclid subway and/or Waterfront extension downtown loop. (I prefer the former, but anything to improve rapid rail is worthwhile.)

- Advocate for extended Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad to downtown.

- Mergers w East Cleveland, Linndale, and Newburgh Heights (EXTREMELY important for this to be on Cleveland's terms - not the hot garbage EC city council tried to propose last time around. Kelley was right to flatly reject that proposal.)

- Figure out how to make the lake accessible around the exterior of Burke.

 

The exciting thing is that most of these have at least been discussed by Bibb.  I look forward to this administration.

 

Newburgh Heights?   Unless I missed something, I'd expect them to fight this hard.  And win, because the state will back them.

2 hours ago, Cleburger said:

I wonder how resistant the bureaucracy will be to these kinds of changes at the top.   Many of the leaders there have been entrenched for decades.    Darnell Brown, the current Chief Operations Officer, has never worked for anyone but the City of Cleveland... 

 

that's a great question.  Most likely he'll be asked to resign.  I know whenever I've taken over a group and done performance reviews, those long term employees opposed to how I manage, were removed from their duties.  

 

Bibb will most likely want his own, COO, generally the Number 2 position, Chief of Staff and Chief Communications Officer. 

18 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Newburgh Heights?   Unless I missed something, I'd expect them to fight this hard.  And win, because the state will back them.

Aren't there elected officials, of the town, under investigation?  Or has that been resolved.  This could be leverage in annexation/merger.  I think there are probably 2,500 residents, at most, this would affect.

 

Also, this could also be strategy to bring in the little towns of Valley View, Cuyahogoa Heights, and Brooklyn Hts into Cleveland. 

44 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Newburgh Heights?   Unless I missed something, I'd expect them to fight this hard.  And win, because the state will back them.

 

9 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

Aren't there elected officials, of the town, under investigation?  Or has that been resolved.  This could be leverage in annexation/merger.  I think there are probably 2,500 residents, at most, this would affect.

 

Also, this could also be strategy to bring in the little towns of Valley View, Cuyahogoa Heights, and Brooklyn Hts into Cleveland. 

Linndale and East Cleveland would also fight against it. It’s still the right thing to do. 
 

Having 59 municipalities in Cuyahoga county is extremely wasteful. We need a wave of mergers. Politically it would be extremely difficult. It is still worth pursuing as a means of cutting waste, improving service, and expanding the political impact of our region. 

 

20 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

Also, this could also be strategy to bring in the little towns of Valley View, Cuyahogoa Heights, and Brooklyn Hts into Cleveland. 

 

It's good to look at school districts when it comes to this. Newburgh goes to Cleveland already. I don't think Cuy Hts and these others would want to hop into Cle SD. 

Newburgh and Linndale both are cleveland schools. Those should be the easiest and first to pursue. Next would be East Cleveland depending on the conditions. I don’t understand how this isn’t a higher priority for state politicians. I do Bc I know they only care about certain groups.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

It's good to look at school districts when it comes to this. Newburgh goes to Cleveland already. I don't think Cuy Hts and these others would want to hop into Cle SD. 

IIRC these areas are apart of the Cuyahoga Hts district.  I think they have a choice, similar to those living in Shaker Sq.

44 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

IIRC these areas are apart of the Cuyahoga Hts district.  I think they have a choice, similar to those living in Shaker Sq.

I think if one city annexes the entirety of another school district, that district would be meged under state law. 

52 minutes ago, MyTwoSense said:

IIRC these areas are apart of the Cuyahoga Hts district.  I think they have a choice, similar to those living in Shaker Sq.

Many of these school district boundaries go back several decades.  Unless a school district becomes too small to be considered viable, these mergers usually don't happen.  Within the last seven years, there were two different school district mergers in Geauga County.  The Ledgemont School District with about 250 total enrollment in grades K-12 merged into the Berkshire School District in 2015.  In 2020, the Newbury School District, also with a total enrollment of about 250 merged into West Geauga.  In both cases, the district that merged into the larger district, all students were housed in one school building in their final years.  Both of these mergers were approved by the school boards of each district.  Bratenahl was also an extremely small school district, but it fought against merging into Cleveland Metropolitan School District.  Bratenahl took the state to court to fight the merger and lost.

 

In Richmond Heights, there is a district boundary that separates Richmond Heights Schools and South Euclid-Lyndhurst Schools.  The boundary is roughly just south of the former Sears building and may date to about a century ago when the area was farmland.  The houses on streets east of the mall and west of Richmond Road south of this line all are considered part of the South Euclid-Lyndhurst district.  Over many years, Richmond Heights Schools has made several attempts to have the territory in that city part added to their district, especially to have the tax benefits initially from the mall and now Belle Oaks.  South Euclid-Lyndhurst will not surrender this territory due to the tax hit it would take and as both districts are "viable" (due to size of enrollment), the state will not become involved. 

 

With a total enrollment of over 800 students, the state will not intercede into a forced merger of the Cuyahoga Heights Schools into Cleveland Schools.

Edited December 5, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

16 minutes ago, freefourur said:

I think if one city annexes the entirety of another school district, that district would be meged under state law. 

Cuyahoga Heights, Brooklyn Heights and Valley View would fight annexation to the extreme with Cleveland.  If annexation were "easy", Linndale would have become part of Cleveland many years ago.

Those suburbs are, in essence, tax shelters for industrial uses.  They won't be merged anytime soon, and we should probably bring this discussion back to Bibb, anyway.

7 hours ago, X said:

Those suburbs are, in essence, tax shelters for industrial uses.  They won't be merged anytime soon, and we should probably bring this discussion back to Bibb, anyway.

Agreed.  This is not something doable under a Bibb administration.  Even if it was initiated, by the time challenges would be exhausted, Bibb would probably be out of office.  This would drag on for multiple terms, even if he sees 3 terms like White or 4 for Jackson.  With his age, if he is successful in turning Cleveland around, he will have the ability and capital to seek higher offices.

 

As an aside to my comments about the former Newbury Schools, a number of years before the the 2020 merger with West Geauga  was completed, there were earlier discussions of merger with that district, before numbers neared the viability threshold.  Rather abruptly, the Newbury board voted to end merger discussions.  That was the end of it, even though West Geauga was a willing partner, until residents voted out the majority of board members against the merger.  They voted in a new pro-merger board majority and that is when merger talks resumed.  That is how these mergers occur.  Bibb and Cleveland cannot invoke them on their own.

Edited December 6, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

On 11/14/2021 at 9:56 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

With Bibb's blowout win, he certainly has a mandate for change.  Some of the things I'm looking forward to:

- Removal of the jersey barriers from Public Square.

- Spinning off management of West Side Market to a dedicated non-profit, enabling infrastructure investment, quality management, and a renewed hope for the future of this gem.

Some other relatively easy wins I hope the administration embraces:

- Traffic light signal prioritization for the HealthLine and any other BRT

- Smart parking meters downtown that encourage regular turnover. Use proceeds to fund transit.

- Superior Midway protected bike lanes from Public Square to E. 55th

- Lorain cycle track

Much harder but absolutely worth pursuing:

- Police reform

- Form based code and elimination of parking minimums near transit

- Aggressively pursue passenger rail. Any improved connections to Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and/or Columbus are worth pursuing at any speeds possible. (And the multi-modal transit center should be at Terminal Tower.)

- Lakefront connections. The Haslam's proposal looks nice.  I think any landbridge should have a protected portion (either two levels or a long glass hallway) so that it is usable year-round)

- Investment in left-behind neighborhoods. (I'd prefer to concentrate on just a few rather than spreading out efforts too wide and therefore too thin, as I think the former will have a bigger impact.)

- Huron/Euclid subway and/or Waterfront extension downtown loop. (I prefer the former, but anything to improve rapid rail is worthwhile.)

- Advocate for extended Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad to downtown.

- Mergers w East Cleveland, Linndale, and Newburgh Heights (EXTREMELY important for this to be on Cleveland's terms - not the hot garbage EC city council tried to propose last time around. Kelley was right to flatly reject that proposal.)

- Figure out how to make the lake accessible around the exterior of Burke.

 

The exciting thing is that most of these have at least been discussed by Bibb.  I look forward to this administration.

Nice list.  I would add planning for future of Shoreway/Main Ave bridge, unless that is a subtask of the Haslam proposal.

 

I thought I heard that Bibb is in favor of closing Burke.  If so, I will be behind him all the way.  Cleveland has two underutilized airports.  One of them is on prime lakefront property.  Let's at least get the conversation going with the FAA about eventually closing Burke. 

 

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Nice list.  I would add planning for future of Shoreway/Main Ave bridge, unless that is a subtask of the Haslam proposal.

 

I thought I heard that Bibb is in favor of closing Burke.  If so, I will be behind him all the way.  Cleveland has two underutilized airports.  One of them is on prime lakefront property.  Let's at least get the conversation going with the FAA about eventually closing Burke. 

 

Burke received tens of millions in Federal money for improvements.  Close Burke and all of that money must be repaid.  Cuyahoga County Airport has significant limitations with its runway.  There are aircraft that can land at Burke with its 6200 foot main runway that cannot land at the county's airport with its 5100 foot runway.  Don't know if restrictions have been modified due to the stopping system that protects aircraft that run off the end of the runway, but previously even slight rainfall would further limit the size of aircraft from using the county airport due to fear of them skidding off the runway. 

 

About a decade or so ago, there was a proposal to extend the runway at the county airport.  Due to protests, many of which came from Lake County, it ended up being killed.  The protection system for planes skidding of the end of the runway came about it as a result.

I'm not saying Burke needs to be closed immediately, but rather at some point in the future. The city needs to start the dialog. Burke poses safety risks as well with a lake on one side and tall buildings on the other side. There have been some fatal mishaps there over the years.

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I'm not saying Burke needs to be closed immediately, but rather at some point in the future. The city needs to start the dialog. Burke poses safety risks as well with a lake on one side and tall buildings on the other side. There have been some fatal mishaps there over the years.

County airport has its issues as well, including fatal incidents as well.  On Bishop Road, there is the remnants of a house foundation that saw two residents along with whomever was in the aircraft killed in a crash.  On Highland Road, a twin-engine plane crashed in a back yard that caused the death of the only occupant, the pilot.  Fortunately, no houses were hit.  There have been others.  The residential nature of the location of Cuyahoga County Airport severely limits operations.  There are no scheduled takeoffs or landings after a certain time at night.  The runway length limits the types of planes that can use it and runway extensions will not happen. 

 

All of these things put significant limitations on any increase in flight operations at the county airport.  These limitations will not allow it to be a viable alternative to Burke.

Edited December 6, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

On 12/5/2021 at 10:45 AM, MyTwoSense said:

IIRC these areas are apart of the Cuyahoga Hts district.  I think they have a choice, similar to those living in Shaker Sq.

 

Newburgh Heights is part of the Cleveland School District.

On 12/5/2021 at 11:49 AM, LifeLongClevelander said:

Cuyahoga Heights, Brooklyn Heights and Valley View would fight annexation to the extreme with Cleveland.  If annexation were "easy", Linndale would have become part of Cleveland many years ago.

 

If anything that's an understatement.   

The state would get involved as well, aggressively if needed.   The GOP would be anti-merger on general principles.  The Democrats would have to be as well, to preserve the votes they still have in the suburbs.   

Annexations will happen due to necessity, just have to wait out the boomers. 

Edited December 7, 20213 yr by Clefan98

lol what are you talking about. these suburbs are more than a hundred years old. how is this a 'boomer' issue. 

 

 

RE: Mayor Bibb and Burke, I'm just glad that its future will be discussed by an administration that all else equal would probably like it to be used for something else. The previous administration clearly had a bias toward keeping it open and would look for excuses to do so.

 

If it turns out a better use isn't feasible, so be it. I will cry one very large single tear, raise my fist toward the sky and cry "Curse you, William R. Hopkins!" But it will be nice to know that the idea of closing Burke was at least given a fair shake.

3 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

Annexations will happen due to necessity, just have to wait out the boomers. 

 

41 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

lol what are you talking about. these suburbs are more than a hundred years old. how is this a 'boomer' issue. 

 

Cuyahoga Heights was definitely not built up due to "boomers".  If one feels that "boomers" would be holding up an annexations, tell us how "boomers" have held up the annexation of Linndale and East Cleveland.

13 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

RE: Mayor Bibb and Burke, I'm just glad that its future will be discussed by an administration that all else equal would probably like it to be used for something else. The previous administration clearly had a bias toward keeping it open and would look for excuses to do so.

 

If it turns out a better use isn't feasible, so be it. I will cry one very large single tear, raise my fist toward the sky and cry "Curse you, William R. Hopkins!" But it will be nice to know that the idea of closing Burke was at least given a fair shake.

 

The idea of closing burke is contemplated daily for whatever reason. People apparently don't see the endless acres north of the stadium that are not yet developed, but think destroying a major economic development asset is a great idea. It baffles the mind.

Per cleveland.com Ultimate Air is pulling out of Burke. Not sure our region needs 3 mediocre airports with one on prime land but oh well. Hopefully this pull out leads to a less investment in the airport and we can start a transition.

19 minutes ago, Pugu said:

 

The idea of closing burke is contemplated daily for whatever reason. People apparently don't see the endless acres north of the stadium that are not yet developed, but think destroying a major economic development asset is a great idea. It baffles the mind.

 

If Burke really is a "major economic development asset," then it will not be closed. My point is that I'm glad the land use is getting investigated and discussed in a meaningful way.

 

Burke's traffic is way down, despite a couple recent years of uptick, and we need a lot more analysis about what effect closing it would have, because I don't think any of us really know.

 

Finally, the "endless acres" north of the stadium are in fact about 25 acres. Burke is more like 450. The area north of the stadium takes up 300 meters of lakefront, while Burke takes up two miles of lakefront. The total Cleveland shoreline adds up to about 17 miles. So more than 10% of the lakefront is currently used for an airport.

 

That's why I'm saying I'm glad the new administration will evaluate the issue in an open minded way. Closing Burke may turn out to be an idea with no legs, but it's well worth thinking about.

27 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

Cuyahoga Heights was definitely not built up due to "boomers".  If one feels that "boomers" would be holding up an annexations, tell us how "boomers" have held up the annexation of Linndale and East Cleveland.

 

The problem with boomers is they are currently in control of all parts of government in the region, this will be changing soon. Younger leaders like myself are already coordinating and planning with the right folks across the county and state to make mergers and annexations a reality someday.

Edited December 7, 20213 yr by Clefan98

8 minutes ago, Clefan14 said:

Per cleveland.com Ultimate Air is pulling out of Burke. Not sure our region needs 3 mediocre airports with one on prime land but oh well. Hopefully this pull out leads to a less investment in the airport and we can start a transition.

 

Ultimate Air is not "pulling out Burke". Business travel--the target of Ultimate's scheduled operations--is severely down due to covid. So they are suspending operations on ALL of their routes until things improve.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

The problem with boomers is they are currently in control of all parts of government in the region, this will be changing soon. Younger leaders like myself are already coordinating and planning with the right folks across the county and state to make mergers and annexations a reality someday.

The problem with people who think they know better is they are in complete denial of reality.  The residents of places like Cuyahoga Heights, Brooklyn Heights and Valley View want nothing to do with being annexed by Cleveland.  :Boomers" or not, those residents will fight it.  Anybody who just "thinks" they will have their way won't be in a position of power very long.

4 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

The problem with people who think they know better is they are in complete denial of reality.  The residents of places like Cuyahoga Heights, Brooklyn Heights and Valley View want nothing to do with being annexed by Cleveland.  :Boomers" or not, those residents will fight it.  Anybody who just "thinks" they will have their way won't be in a position of power very long.

 

LOL, you're speaking with the attitude of yesterdays (old Cleveland). Good luck with that...

Edited December 7, 20213 yr by Clefan98

Enough with the merger talk.  This thread is about the Bibb Mayoralty.

 

Reporting from ideastream
Door To Door: Inside Cleveland Mayor-elect Justin Bibb's transition

https://www.ideastream.org/news/door-to-door-inside-cleveland-mayor-elect-justin-bibbs-transition

 

At midnight on Jan. 3, Justin Bibb will become mayor of Cleveland.

His transition team, working from a small office at the edge of Downtown, has just a few weeks to prepare him for the job.

Transition manager Bradford Davy told me recently that the team will be judged on whether Bibb is ready, as he promised to be, on “Day One,” whether they’ve found talented people to hire and whether the broader community feels it has been heard.
…

Who needs a job?

 

 

And here’s the swearing in ceremony:

 

On 12/15/2021 at 10:31 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Who needs a job?

 

And here’s the swearing in ceremony:

 

 

I got tickets to this - we'll see where covid has us around then but for now I'll hopefully be there!

^ this a great idea.

 

for comparison -- eric adams the nyc mayor elect is having his ceremony in the historic kings theater in brooklyn which also seats 3k.

I think other mayors had their inaugurations at Public Hall or Public Auditorium in the past.

 

Edited December 17, 20213 yr by Pugu

7 hours ago, mrnyc said:

^ this a great idea.

 

for comparison -- eric adams the nyc mayor elect is having his ceremony in the historic kings theater in brooklyn which also seats 3k.

 

My sources tell me that this inauguration is an elected power block power move, to show that Brooklyn is the new seat of NYC Government.  They are already playing the game.

19 hours ago, Pugu said:

I think other mayors had their inaugurations at Public Hall or Public Auditorium in the past.

 

 

yeah i cant imagine its a first. its a nice idea though and good place to do it. you sure cant trust the weather for outdoors.