January 11, 20223 yr Christmas in January! Glad to hear Bedrock and Gilbert are behind this. With his track record in Detroit, we should definitely see this come to fruition!
January 11, 20223 yr Love Love this so much, and I think reading between the lines, Stark's statements make a lot of sense and aren't technically inconsistent with @KJP's story. Quote “We are not selling anything [yet, because the details with Bedrock aren't worked out yet],” he said. “And we’re not actively marketing the property [why would we market it since we're hoping to sell to Bedrock]. The certificates of disclosure are anticipatory [of the sale to Bedrock].” Further reading between the lines, this makes a lot of sense of why Stark didn't submit a TMUD application--He probably was ready, willing, and able to but Bedrock made him an offer he couldn't refuse first.
January 11, 20223 yr Amazing. Exactly what I was hoping for - billionaires with deep pockets and track records! Edited January 11, 20223 yr by RE Developer In Training
January 11, 20223 yr Awesome! The high-rise boom taking shape in Cleveland and Columbus is awesome to see, and seems to just be getting started. The coming years are going to be an exciting time for urban development in Ohio's cities!
January 11, 20223 yr @KJP, your site is no longer working at all!! It's showing a word press install. If you need assistance or alternatives, let me know.
January 11, 20223 yr Author We had too many people on the site at one time. It crashed the site. We're working to get it back. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr Author Wowzers! But it's back up again. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr It took 30 years, but this would amount to nearly the full realization of the original economic development potential from the gateway project. I am guessing both of these are strong candidates for the next round of TMUD applications.
January 11, 20223 yr Author 12 minutes ago, JohnSummit said: It took 30 years, but this would amount to nearly the full realization of the original economic development potential from the gateway project. I am guessing both of these are strong candidates for the next round of TMUD applications. Although those sportsbooks are a license to print money. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr So much positivity! Two major developments in the same area in the works by deep-pocketed developers. That is something. I don't know which one excites me more. Maybe the ballpark village. Year round entertainment plus a residential highrise will certainly enliven that area. But adding another tower which includes office space for Rocket Mortgage expansion is great too because downtown needs to be more than a government/entertainment/residential district. It must include office jobs. And if the proposed building includes space for Benesch AND a boutique hotel, well that ensures it will be a signifcant building. Maybe the best news is that both projects have the backing of individuals with outstanding resources. Stark had big dreams but his dreams were larger than his wallet. These developers are on a different level. It will be fun to watch this play out.
January 11, 20223 yr it's safe to say impact of these projects together would nearly equal that of shw hq. 22 off to a great start! The peices are really coming together now. Edited January 11, 20223 yr by West153
January 11, 20223 yr The fact that Ken's site went down is probably a good indication that people are VERY interested in how this plays out.
January 11, 20223 yr It took awhile to access the big news as the site was overrun by crazed UO people (like me). If the pieces fall into place as reported by Ken, this will be an incredible development! The cool thing is that the disappointing demise of Nucleus could so quickly give way to a just-as-cool (ok, cooler) vision. This would supercharge the area in the way that Nucleus hoped to do - but even more successfully when you look at the various components in the plan and the very deep pockets involved. This news does seem to explain why Stark was laying so low in recent months. New trophy office, high rise residential and ballpark village - WOW! I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that this project materializes as described. It was almost exactly eight years ago that we got the unveiling of Nucleus which led to a series of endless delays. But this mega project seems like it could be well-grounded and traveling at warp speed. Hopefully. Imagine the energy downtown if the timeline actually happens - it could begin rising before SW is completed. Happy New Year, indeed, Cleveland.
January 11, 20223 yr Author 12 hours ago, Pugu said: How tall are the office and residential buildings proposed to be? No way to know yet. However..... If Bedrock is able to get Rocket Mortgage AND Benesch into the same building together, it would require a minimum of 500.000 square feet. I would bump it up to at least 600,000 to accommodate future growth of both companies and sublease it to other firms wanting to join the "flight to quality" office space. If you divide 600,000 square feet by 20,000 sf per floor, that's a 30-story building. If the floorplates are 25,000 sf, that's a 24-story building. If it's just Rocket Mortgage + extra for future expansion, consider 375,000 sf divided by 20k to 25k and it's a 15- to 19-story building. And here's the best part -- that's ON TOP of a 7-8 story pedestal of parking, retail, amenities, etc. The residential buildings are a total unknown at this point. But consider that the Shinola Hotel in Detroit is 138,000 square feet. Knock that down to 100,000 sf for Cleveland. Then add about 300,000 sf for a 250-unit apartment building (same number of units as what Stark proposed in his second version). Divide the 400,000 sf among floor plates averaging 15,000 sf per floor and you get a 27-story building -- again, on top of a 7-8 story pedestal of parking, retail etc. Then you have the HBSE development. If they copy St. Louis, we get a 29-story apartment building. But I'm told HBSE wants to go bigger. Cleveland has a larger, more mature residential market downtown than St. Louis. Again, I don't know what we'll get. But the players involved and the descriptions of being larger than nuCLEus and bigger than St. Louis ballpark village are exciting. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: No way to know yet. However..... If Bedrock is able to get Rocket Mortgage AND Benesch into the same building together, it would require a minimum of 500.000 square feet. I would bump it up to at least 600,000 to accommodate future growth of both companies and sublease it to other firms wanting to join the "flight to quality" office space. If you divide 600,000 square feet by 20,000 sf per floor, that's a 30-story building. If the floorplates are 25,000 sf, that's a 24-story building. If it's just Rocket Mortgage + extra for future expansion, consider 375,000 sf divided by 20k to 25k and it's a 15- to 19-story building. And here's the best part -- that's ON TOP of a 7-8 story pedestal of parking, retail, amenities, etc. Hoping it’s a 30-story on top of parking. That would just about have the same visual effect on downtown height wise as the Jenga NuCLEus model. There’s a rendering somewhere on the site of both SHW and the Jenga Tower at night taken from the vantage point of the Scranton Penninsula. The visual gave a feel like, “I’m somewhere that’s important, somewhere I want to be”. We all know Cleveland is a great city- these type of developments show it to the rest of the country. Edited January 11, 20223 yr by Oldmanladyluck
January 11, 20223 yr @KJP...clearly mum will be the word for quite some time...at least when it comes to the actual parties. So is there anything specific you will be looking for in the future in terms of a public record event-other than the recording of deeds of course which would really spill the beans-or actions on site (say soil testing) which would give you some firm confirmation of what your sources are telling you. Of course a ten page press release with a followup press conference would be really nice.
January 11, 20223 yr Author I think you will see a deed transfer on the county website very soon. I just received a very solid confirmation about this story. And I'm told that this Bedrock development will indeed be big. It will likely be larger than the @Geowizical renderings I used for the article. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr Hey @KJP, would you describe this as one large project, or two separate ones happening at the same time. If Nucleus is truly not for sale, could the Guardians project go forward without it?
January 11, 20223 yr 30 story office building with 7 stories of parking at 15' per story is 555'. That'd be good for 5th tallest in Cleveland and tied for 8th in Ohio after SHW gets added.
January 11, 20223 yr Who else would like to see architects take some cues from Geowizical’s massing work?
January 11, 20223 yr Author 12 minutes ago, punch said: Hey @KJP, would you describe this as one large project, or two separate ones happening at the same time. If Nucleus is truly not for sale, could the Guardians project go forward without it? It's two large projects in succession, with the Bedrock project needing to happen first. As noted in the article, a significant amount of new parking has to be built -- likely comparable to the 1,500+ spaces Stark originally proposed with nuCLEus. Might even have to be 2,000+. Once that parking is built, then the Gateway East Garage can be demolished (partially or entirely). After it is demo'd, then construction can begin on HBSE's portion. But that assumes they take a majority stake in the Guardians, which isn't likely to happen until 2026. But the garage and development sites need to be acquired in the next two years. The city has an incentive to transfer them ASAP or they will have to pay the Guardians $2 million per year into the ballpark renovation project. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr 22 minutes ago, KJP said: I think you will see a deed transfer on the county website very soon. I just received a very solid confirmation about this story. And I'm told that this Bedrock development will indeed be big. It will likely be larger than the @Geowizical renderings I used for the article. Larger than my renderings?!?! *faints*
January 11, 20223 yr 16 minutes ago, Sapper Daddy said: Who else would like to see architects take some cues from Geowizical’s massing work? I like the building's direction. It feels both modern and Cleveland. No offense, though, Geo, but I could do without the plaza at East 4th and Prospect or the mid block greenways (maybe one or the other would be ok). I think these sorts of plazas tend to be poorly used and spend much of the year as windswept no-man's lands. I wouldn't say anything about it, but I feel like once a "greenspace" shows up on a rendering, a large number of people lose all reasonableness about it and feel like it needs to be defended to the death, used (or likely to be used) or not.
January 11, 20223 yr 7 minutes ago, X said: I could do without the plaza at East 4th and Prospect or the mid block greenways I like them, but as these are entirely unofficial renderings there's isn't really any sense going into it. Anything will be an improvement over a surface parking lot!
January 11, 20223 yr Wow! That's a lot to take in!! Very exciting. Below are a few of the things running through my head... #1 - We'll start with Stark: It's unfortunate that the 650ft original nuCLEus tower never got built, that would have been great for Cleveland (and maybe forced this project to be bigger on a smaller footprint). I'm hopeful that Stark may take this money and build a substantial tower, his Legacy Project/Terminal Tower for the 21st century as he mentioned before, over on his W. 9th & W. St. Clair site. That would be a win-win for the city – many buildings built and many parking lots filled in!!! #2- Blitzer/Harris: It’s interesting that it would take someone(s) with less money to make this big investment in/around the Indians/Progressive field. I could be wrong, but from what I’ve read the Dolans net-worth is greater than Blitzer/Harris(we’re comparing billions I know). Either way, if we get someone(s) who is willing to invest in the team and city, I’m all for it! That’s what Cleveland deserves!!! The reported idea is exciting. I hope the development that will be a “ballpark village” is well thought through, a space that will be a year round facility and one that has attractions and things for “non-sports fans” and sports fans alike. An exciting draw for all CLE residents and visitors. As always, the taller the buildings the better ;) #3- Gilbert: This is the part I’m most excited by and nervous about. It definitely seems a positive that Gilbert would be the one to get this location as he has very deep pockets; is obviously very invested in the city, he’s shown he’s able to get things done & in a timely manner, and also has experience in developing skyscrapers like the 685ft Hudson tower he’s building in the state up north. The only thing that makes me nervous is that he has a lot of irons in the fire in the Bedrock and Hudson tower, and that he’s so committed to his hometown, I don’t know if that would impact the size of this development. I’d hate to see a shorter building built on the neCLEus site than the original, ala the neCLEus 2a & 3a models, I’d be sad to see anything less than a 500ft tower and massive mixed use facility. The reason being is I feel this is such a prime location in our city, and a substantial skyscraper in that spot would be so impactful on our skyline from all angles. That being said, I think Gilbert’s shown to do right be Cleveland so far and his recently increased net-worth leave me very optimistic that this could be a huge development… maybe part two of the HudsonSite project. Lastly, if this whole combined development happens the spinoff in the neighborhood of Carnegie, E. 9th and Ontario would most likely be massive! This is very exciting news!!! I’m super pumped for Cleveland!!!!
January 11, 20223 yr 3 hours ago, JohnSummit said: I am guessing both of these are strong candidates for the next round of TMUD applications. When is the next round of TMUD applications?
January 11, 20223 yr What is the status of the proposed park on Carnegie opposite Jacobs Field? That stretch is straight out of Mad Max right now, and the park/greenspace would do wonders for that area.
January 11, 20223 yr Author @NR I think the Bedrock site will have a have a lot of stuff on it... + a big office building + a big residential and boutique hotel building + all on top of a 7-8 story pedestal of parking & retail So there may not be room for a public plaza. 11 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: When is the next round of TMUD applications? Probably in the late summer or fall. 7 minutes ago, Ineffable_Matt said: What is the status of the proposed park on Carnegie opposite Jacobs Field? That stretch is straight out of Mad Max right now, and the park/greenspace would do wonders for that area. Do you mean Ontario? If so, there's been no movement. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr 2 minutes ago, KJP said: Do you mean Ontario? If so, there's been no movement. I did mean Ontario. But the Carnegie side could use some sprucing up, too 😆
January 11, 20223 yr I just saw this thread today (from the KJP bomb part)...I think I peed in my pants a little! I think that the money backing this project will make an awesome transformation to this area. I also hope that the Bibb administration will be fresh thinking, cut the red tape, and be a welcoming entity rather than a hurdle in a steeplechase event!
January 11, 20223 yr This is definately awesome and unbelievable great news. The only question i have is Are these 2 Independent projects? Meaning the Nucleus site to be developed by Bedrock/Gilbert and the other parcel (ballpark village ) to be developed by Blitzer OR is Bedrock/Blitzer doing both of these together.
January 11, 20223 yr Author 7 minutes ago, simplythis said: This is definately awesome and unbelievable great news. The only question i have is Are these 2 Independent projects? Meaning the Nucleus site to be developed by Bedrock/Gilbert and the other parcel (ballpark village ) to be developed by Blitzer OR is Bedrock/Blitzer doing both of these together. I answered this question 10 posts earlier. 🙂 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 11, 20223 yr 10 minutes ago, KJP said: I answered this question 10 posts earlier. 🙂 Ok Got it. Thank you. On Blitzer he is buying for 400 million a 35% stake in the Indians/Guardians. You said that in 2026 there is a path for a majority stake. From what you know is that a full 100% stake or 51%
January 11, 20223 yr Author 1 hour ago, simplythis said: Ok Got it. Thank you. On Blitzer he is buying for 400 million a 35% stake in the Indians/Guardians. You said that in 2026 there is a path for a majority stake. From what you know is that a full 100% stake or 51% Somewhere in between. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 12, 20223 yr Great article @KJP! Loved all the detail in it! Just caught up on all the comments here and I'm glad to hear your site is getting all that traffic (although apparently too much for the servers lol)!!
January 12, 20223 yr Author 7 hours ago, dwolfi01 said: Great article @KJP! Loved all the detail in it! Just caught up on all the comments here and I'm glad to hear your site is getting all that traffic (although apparently too much for the servers lol)!! Thanks. Turns out it was due to a calendar plug-in we just installed. We installed another plug-in and we should be good to go. There's more news to share about this which confirms the project but I'm going to wait to report it to protect sources. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 12, 20223 yr 20 hours ago, KJP said: It's two large projects in succession, with the Bedrock project needing to happen first. As noted in the article, a significant amount of new parking has to be built -- likely comparable to the 1,500+ spaces Stark originally proposed with nuCLEus. Might even have to be 2,000+. Once that parking is built, then the Gateway East Garage can be demolished (partially or entirely). After it is demo'd, then construction can begin on HBSE's portion. But that assumes they take a majority stake in the Guardians, which isn't likely to happen until 2026. But the garage and development sites need to be acquired in the next two years. The city has an incentive to transfer them ASAP or they will have to pay the Guardians $2 million per year into the ballpark renovation project. Awesome - thank you. I hadn't known about the potential minority ownership of the Guardians until your article, so thanks for all of it.
January 12, 20223 yr @KJPI don’t believe Blitzer is a majority owner in any of his sports team ventures. Why would this project be contingent on that? Edited January 12, 20223 yr by marty15
January 12, 20223 yr Author @marty15 Harris-Blizter Sports Entertainment is majority owners of the Philadelphia 76ers and NJ Devils. I hope that we don't have to wait until they become majority owners of the Guardians in 2026. I would like to see development activity south of Huron Rd before then. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 12, 20223 yr 5 minutes ago, KJP said: @marty15 Harris-Blizter Sports Entertainment is majority owners of the Philadelphia 76ers and NJ Devils. I hope that we don't have to wait until they become majority owners of the Guardians in 2026. I would like to see development activity south of Huron Rd before then. Will Harris be involved in the Guardians deal now with the ballpark village revelation?
January 12, 20223 yr Author 4 minutes ago, marty15 said: Will Harris be involved in the Guardians deal now with the ballpark village revelation? Absolutely. Harris and Blitzer are joined at the hip. The media coverage has mistakenly been preoccupied with Blitzer. This is as much about Harris, perhaps more so since he is far wealthier. The teams they own are owned by HBSE, and the real estate is developed by HBSE as well. The properties north of Progressive Field that the Guardians will buy will in turn be principally owned by HBSE starting in 2026, if everything goes as planned. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 12, 20223 yr 3 minutes ago, KJP said: Absolutely. Harris and Blitzer are joined at the hip. The media coverage has mistakenly been preoccupied with Blitzer. This is as much about Harris, perhaps more so since he is far wealthier. The teams they own are owned by HBSE, and the real estate is developed by HBSE as well. The properties north of Progressive Field that the Guardians will buy will in turn be principally owned by HBSE starting in 2026, if everything goes as planned. KJP- From what you know - Will the Dolans' stay on as minority owners of the Guardians starting in 2026?
January 12, 20223 yr Author 12 minutes ago, simplythis said: KJP- From what you know - Will the Dolans' stay on as minority owners of the Guardians starting in 2026? I don't know. I've been focused on the real estate side of things. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 12, 20223 yr not to rain on the parade, and its great there is new blood and that they have plans, but other than sports teams, do these minority owners have any experience with real estate developments? i don't see any. especially in regard to this major ballpark village developments kind of thing. they would need other partners, no?
Create an account or sign in to comment