February 1, 20223 yr Author A variant of Bedrock’s Hudson’s Site in Cleveland? By Ken Prendergast / February 1, 2022 NEOtrans is receiving word that the proposed Bedrock megaproject in downtown’s Cleveland Gateway District may be comparable in scale to a major development in downtown Detroit. When asked how big Bedrock’s planned development in downtown Cleveland might be, two sources close to the Detroit-based firm said “Look at the Hudson’s Site.” For those unfamiliar with Bedrock’s development at the Hudson’s Site in downtown Detroit, allow NEOtrans to acquaint you. To cut to the chase, it’s larger than Sherwin-Williams’ new global headquarters. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2022/02/01/a-variant-of-bedrocks-hudson-in-cleveland/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 1, 20223 yr Quote United Agent Group is also the statutory agent for Huron Holdings Investor LLC, formed Nov. 29, 2021, along with several other firms with intriguing names. Those include Prospect Avenue Acquisition LLC and another firm using its acronym PAA Asset Holdings LLC. They were incorporated on Nov. 23, 2021 by United Agent Group. Those two firms were actually incorporated by mistake as “PAA Asset Holdings And Prospect Avenue Acquisition LLC” on Nov. 19 but dissolved on Nov. 23. United Agent Group is the statutory agent for all of those companies. Nice sleuthing.
February 1, 20223 yr From @KJP's story: "The scale of Bedrock’s Hudson’s Site tower has been a moving target. It was to be 800 feet tall and then 912 feet, making it Detroit’s tallest skyscraper by eclipsing the 727-foot-tall Marriott at the Renaissance Center." Hopefully Bedrock will still want to pursue their dream of a 900+ foot bldg and finally realize it here in Cleveland. They could build the tallest bldg in Cleveland, eclipsing the 947-foot-tall Key Tower. Edited February 1, 20223 yr by Pugu
February 1, 20223 yr Author 11 minutes ago, Mendo said: Nice sleuthing. Thanks! My wife laughed when she heard me swear with joy from the other room when I came across that! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 1, 20223 yr 13 minutes ago, Pugu said: From @KJP's story: "The scale of Bedrock’s Hudson’s Site tower has been a moving target. It was to be 800 feet tall and then 912 feet, making it Detroit’s tallest skyscraper by eclipsing the 727-foot-tall Marriott at the Renaissance Center." ... Well it was reduced to 685 feet and will not be a new tallest, but congrats for what you might get. Sounds like this may be huge!
February 1, 20223 yr Author LOL! Yep, it crashed again. Give it a couple of minutes. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 1, 20223 yr 22 minutes ago, Pugu said: Hopefully Bedrock will still want to pursue their dream of a 900+ story bldg and finally realize it here in Cleveland. They could build the tallest bldg in Cleveland, eclipsing the 947-foot-tall Key Tower. I'll be happy with anything over 708'.
February 1, 20223 yr Author 12 minutes ago, KJP said: LOL! Yep, it crashed again. Give it a couple of minutes. It's back. Gonna need more bytes... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 1, 20223 yr Wow I wonder when the official news would be release and their target date. Cannot wait to see more tall buildings in our skyline
February 1, 20223 yr After checking out Bedrocks previous versions of the Hudson's Tower, I'm hoping they do something similar to this one. It would be amazing to have a legit observation deck or top floor restaurant in the city. From that vantage point, you would have a spectacular view of downtown.
February 1, 20223 yr 51 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: I'll be happy with anything over 708'. what's significant about 708? 708 would put a bldg between BP (658) and the Terminal Tower (771).
February 1, 20223 yr I was not including the 63' flag pole on top of Terminal Tower. I didn't want to sound too greedy. 😀
February 1, 20223 yr 23 minutes ago, Pugu said: what's significant about 708? 708 would put a bldg between BP (658) and the Terminal Tower (771). The official height of the Terminal Tower is 708’ - the flagpole is not included in that. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
February 1, 20223 yr 28 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: I was not including the 63' flag pole on top of Terminal Tower. I didn't want to sound too greedy. 😀 I didn't realize that of the Terminal's (claimed) 771 feet, 63 was flagpole!
February 1, 20223 yr Exciting stuff l! I’m really curious about the NEOtrans quote about sources having different opinions regarding the square footage vs. height presentation of this mega project. @KJPknowing Bedrock’s “personality” and aesthetics do you have a sense of which direction they might be going - could it be less height spread out over multiple buildings or might they want to definitely make a skyline changing vertical statement? I remember that your reporting on SW’s development took into account the personality of their CEO and company and we did see that influence in the design. I wonder if you have a sense of that dynamic with this project. Edited February 1, 20223 yr by CleveFan
February 1, 20223 yr Great news! Can't wait to get more concrete details on this project. Very exciting!
February 1, 20223 yr It seems like NuCLEus got close on a couple occasions in a couple different capacities, but this one I think has a legit shot at materializing into something huge. Remember, NuCLEus first was proposed at almost the same time that LeBron announced he was "coming home," it seems like Stark was banking off that excitement (and knowing there would be 20,000 people at the Q/RMF 50-plus days a year). Once LeBron left again, I think it killed some of the interest outside of Bensch, which correct me if I'm wrong was the only entity fully committed until the end. Common thought, for good reason, was the Cavs were only going to be successful if LeBron was there and the Guardians/Indians for legitimate reasons has a tepid fan base. It became more of a risk to jump aboard a project like that not knowing how many people would still be attending sporting events in Gateway if the Cavs went back into a decade(s) long funk and it was status quo for the Guardians/Indians. Now, the Cavs have a legitimate up-and-coming team that the core will be around for at least the next half decade and they have created a buzz that is starting to get back to what it was the LeBron years (the Milwaukee game the other week was a playoff atmosphere). On top of the foundation this Cavs team has, you also now have a sports book that will be somewhere in that vicinity (which will be a big draw, especially during big sporting events ... which from a gambling perspective is year-round) and the Guardians' new ownership can't possibly hurt since so much of the casual fans have been turned off on them for well over a decade now due to the Dolans' penny-pinching. With the expected change in ownership from the Dolans to Blitzer and Blitzer's development portfolio and ambitions for the same area, it's safe to say that his group will try to make an early splash to get the fans back on board, and also help cement some of their development interests in the area. It seems like everything is aligning at once between Cavs, sports book, Guardians ownership where the entertainment component shouldn't have too much difficulty filling up; if Bensch still wants in and the Quicken Cleveland staff moves in, that fills up a big chunk of the commercial aspect. Residential doesn't seem to be slowing downtown so shouldn't be a sticking point for groups that have deeper pockets than Stark, especially since this I'm assuming will be a TMUD applicant. We'll see, but this could make the past 8 years of waiting out what is going on with NuCLEus worth it at the end.
February 1, 20223 yr 3 hours ago, Pugu said: Hopefully Bedrock will still want to pursue their dream of a 900+ story bldg and finally realize it here in Cleveland. They could build the tallest bldg in Cleveland, eclipsing the 947-foot-tall Key Tower. With an average floor height of 1 foot and 2/3rd of one inch, this 900 story behemoth will eclipse the measly 57 floor, 947' Key Tower. Heck, the roof height is 888 feet so we'll be cooking with fire even with 1 foot tall floor heights! Even the 167+ story Jeddah Tower won't stand a chance! I'll take a condo priced to sell way down on the 75th floor, please.
February 1, 20223 yr Author 53 minutes ago, CleveFan said: Exciting stuff l! I’m really curious about the NEOtrans quote about sources having different opinions regarding the square footage vs. height presentation of this mega project. @KJPknowing Bedrock’s “personality” and aesthetics do you have a sense of which direction they might be going - could it be less height spread out over multiple buildings or might they want to definitely make a skyline changing vertical statement? I remember that your reporting on SW’s development took into account the personality of their CEO and company and we did see that influence in the design. I wonder if you have a sense of that dynamic with this project. Here's the crazy thing, and perhaps @ColDayMan can confirm or correct me, but I don't think Bedrock has any confirmed "anchor" tenants for the Hudson's Site, be it office or retail/restaurant. So he's pretty much doing this on spec. He apparently was pursuing the Monroe Blocks mostly/entirely on spec which is why that project has been shelved. I've seen lots of news coverage wondering if there's office demand for the Hudson's Site and Monroe Blocks. Yet Gilbert went ahead with the Hudson's Site and tried to make it the city's tallest. That's hubris. On the other hand, the Cleveland site is larger (2.85 acres) versus the Detroit site (2.2 acres) so there may not be a need for building so tall. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 2, 20223 yr Correct, Hudson's Site has no confirmed tenants. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
February 2, 20223 yr Here's the crazy thing, and perhaps [mention=4]ColDayMan[/mention] can confirm or correct me, but I don't think Bedrock has any confirmed "anchor" tenants for the Hudson's Site, be it office or retail/restaurant. So he's pretty much doing this on spec. He apparently was pursuing the Monroe Blocks mostly/entirely on spec which is why that project has been shelved. I've seen lots of news coverage wondering if there's office demand for the Hudson's Site and Monroe Blocks. Yet Gilbert went ahead with the Hudson's Site and tried to make it the city's tallest. That's hubris. On the other hand, the Cleveland site is larger (2.85 acres) versus the Detroit site (2.2 acres) so there may not be a need for building so tall.Off of what Ken said, the size of the Gateway site scares me a bit in terms of there being more ground level to develop on, which might take away from how vertical it ends up being. Unless maybe they use a good chunk on the ground for a pavilion/gathering space sinilar to the Hudson’s Site.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
February 2, 20223 yr Author 11 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said: Off of what Ken said, the size of the Gateway site scares me a bit in terms of there being more ground level to develop on, which might take away from how vertical it ends up being. Unless maybe they use a good chunk on the ground for a pavilion/gathering space sinilar to the Hudson’s Site. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk But the big difference will be the parking. The Detroit site only has 2 levels of parking. I expect the Cleveland version to be similar to nuCLEus in that it will have about 7 or 8 levels of parking. Plop a 30 story office building on top of that and you've got a 550-footer. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 2, 20223 yr Would it be cheaper for mat foundations for two 20-30ish story buildings or a caisson foundation for one taller building?
February 2, 20223 yr 1 hour ago, GREGinPARMA said: Off of what Ken said, the size of the Gateway site scares me a bit in terms of there being more ground level to develop on, which might take away from how vertical it ends up being. Unless maybe they use a good chunk on the ground for a pavilion/gathering space sinilar to the Hudson’s Site. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Getting rid of a two acre surface parking lot in the center of the business district shouldn't scare you.
February 2, 20223 yr Getting rid of a two acre surface parking lot in the center of the business district shouldn't scare you.That aspect of it makes me very happy. And so will whatever ends up being built. But I think you will agree we can all get a bit greedy and want tall and taller! LolSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
February 2, 20223 yr I would not complain one bit if someone could post renderings of what a tower like this(say 685 feet or higher)might look like in different forms(especially something with a nice taper and crown)on the site and in the Cleveland skyline? Sounds like this could be a project bigger and taller than NuCLEus and I cannot get the image of that proposal out of my mind when thinking of what the skyline might look like with a different proposal. Edited February 2, 20223 yr by Toddguy
February 2, 20223 yr 6 minutes ago, Toddguy said: I would not complain one bit if someone could post renderings of what a tower like this(say 685 feet or higher)might look like in different forms(especially something with a nice taper and crown)on the site and in the Cleveland skyline? Sounds like this could be a project bigger and taller than NuCLEus and I cannot get the image of that proposal out of my mind when thinking of what the skyline might look like with a different proposal. There's a couple in the Cleveland Random visualizations thread.
February 2, 20223 yr My only (non-negotiable) requirement for this is it be at least over 665ft so we can have the top three in the state again and take that crown away from the tiara.
February 2, 20223 yr Doesn’t this 2.85 acres include the Mr. Alberts building and the parking garage behind it? What is the size of the site if those buildings aren’t demolished? Edited February 2, 20223 yr by marty15
February 2, 20223 yr Author 4 hours ago, marty15 said: Doesn’t this 2.85 acres include the Mr. Alberts building and the parking garage behind it? What is the size of the site if those buildings aren’t demolished? Yes it does. If you remove those six parcels east of the public right of way (the East 6th walkway), it drops by 0.834 acres. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 2, 20223 yr 11 minutes ago, KJP said: Yes it does. If you remove those six parcels east of the public right of way (the East 6th walkway), it drops by 0.834 acres. Bedrock managed to repair the May Co. garage, which was in terrible condition. I could see them doing the same with the garage on Prospect. Anyone know how many spaces it has? Edited February 2, 20223 yr by marty15
February 2, 20223 yr Author 1 hour ago, marty15 said: Bedrock managed to repair the May Co. garage, which was in terrible condition. I could see them doing the same with the garage on Prospect. Anyone know how many spaces it has? Parkopedia says it has 387 spaces. https://en.parkopedia.com/parking/garage/mk_gateway_garage/44115/cleveland/?arriving=202202020730&leaving=202202020930 When I Googled it, a couple of pictures came up. This was one of them.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 2, 20223 yr 57 minutes ago, KJP said: Parkopedia says it has 387 spaces. https://en.parkopedia.com/parking/garage/mk_gateway_garage/44115/cleveland/?arriving=202202020730&leaving=202202020930 When I Googled it, a couple of pictures came up. This was one of them.... I'm not a structural engineer but I don't think that is very safe.
February 2, 20223 yr Any thoughts on the impact this project may have on Magellan or the "mystery lot" by the Rockafeller building?
February 2, 20223 yr I forgot that Detroit demolished the Hudson building...uugh. Happy the May and Higbee are still with us.
February 2, 20223 yr 10 minutes ago, freethink said: I forgot that Detroit demolished the Hudson building...uugh. Happy the May and Higbee are still with us. and Halle
February 2, 20223 yr Author 1 hour ago, cfdwarrior said: Any thoughts on the impact this project may have on Magellan or the "mystery lot" by the Rockafeller building? There's no shortage of megaprojects out there, including the Haslams' lakefront project. Let them all compete to be the next/first! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 2, 20223 yr 2 hours ago, cfdwarrior said: Any thoughts on the impact this project may have on Magellan or the "mystery lot" by the Rockafeller building? Good question
February 3, 20223 yr 15 minutes ago, tastybunns said: How's about a Horseshoe casino 2.Woah! Makes sense. It can be incorporated with the forthcoming sports book. The potential for this whole project is exciting!
February 3, 20223 yr 11 minutes ago, dski44 said: Makes sense. It can be incorporated with the forthcoming sports book. The potential for this whole project is exciting! I am pretty sure at this point, per the casino vote way back when, the only place a casino can go is behind Tower City.
February 3, 20223 yr It certainly would be nice to see a new casino at another location rather than in an historic building on Public Square.
February 3, 20223 yr I no longer want to see any new casino addition. Possibly unpopular opinion, but Casino's are a lot cooler in the movies than they are in real life... If we have to add another (or move it to a larger location) I think this gateway location makes more sense than anywhere on the waterfront. To echo someone else, waterfront is wasted on a windowless building.
February 3, 20223 yr Gilbert doesn’t own the casino anymore. And unless the state constitution is amended again, (it won’t) what we have is it. The current owner would have to purchase the land from Gilbert that’s designated for the casino behind Tower City in order for it to happen.
February 3, 20223 yr Author 1 hour ago, marty15 said: Gilbert doesn’t own the casino anymore. And unless the state constitution is amended again, (it won’t) what we have is it. The current owner would have to purchase the land from Gilbert that’s designated for the casino behind Tower City in order for it to happen. However, I do expect a sports book in the Bedrock development. The Guardians will have one where the Terrace Club is now, so I'd be surprised if they had it in the ballpark village. Although, considering the Terrace Club's location, it would be pretty accessible from the village. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 3, 20223 yr 2 hours ago, KJP said: However, I do expect a sports book in the Bedrock development. The Guardians will have one where the Terrace Club is now, so I'd be surprised if they had it in the ballpark village. Although, considering the Terrace Club's location, it would be pretty accessible from the village. Likewise. I’m assuming the Terrace Club location will be temporary.
February 4, 20223 yr @KJPWasn’t the lawn at Huron and Ontario part of the sale? Have you heard any plans for that? Maybe space to add onto the existing garage? Edited February 4, 20223 yr by marty15
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