2 hours ago, marty15 said:

@KJPWasn’t the lawn at Huron and Ontario part of the sale? Have you heard any plans for that? Maybe space to add onto the existing garage?

 

That's city-owned land. If it was part of a future sale, there would be an RFP out there for it. Several people send me city- and county-related notices about stuff like that, so I probably would have seen it already if there was one.

With all the interest in building a ballpark village, it would make a lot of sense to try to get the City to unload that lot and let it be a part of the development discussion.

Benesch to Key Tower according to Crain’s. 

According to the article they are taking 8 floors

Since I’m not a paying customer of Crain’s anymore how long is the lease supposed to run?

Maybe we should try to keep all this in one thread.  Elements are being discussed in three different threads since early this morning:  Downtown Office, Nucleus and Bedrock,

According to the article the Besch lease at Key is for 30 years

@PigmeatNo, the article says in a quote that the lease for Squire Patton Boggs was 30 years.

Any updates?

Nope. All quiet. 

 

Cleveland teams’ major league real estate plans

By Ken Prendergast / April 3, 2022

 

All three major league sports teams in Cleveland have real estate development plans for downtown Cleveland. They are some of the grandest visions that have been put out there. And while some of those plans have been made public, most remain a secret because they’re still in the process of refining those plans. Some details are unknown because they depend on the resolution of significant infrastructure investments.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/04/03/cleveland-teams-major-league-real-estate-plans/

Wow! While we have read about each of these potential developments before when you see them in one article it does serve to remind us that in total, these are transformational projects. If all three occur on the scale indicated that will make downtown Cleveland virtually unrecognizable. 

 

This is all doable, not pie-in-the-sky dreaming because of the big money developers involved. Will one, two or three get built? We can't say at the moment but it sure will be fun to see how this plays out. 

 

And it's not just these major developments. There is a lot of momentum all across town. For those of us who love this kind of activity it's a great time to be alive.

@KJPGreat article. We often read that public funding of stadia doesn't generate economic revenue in return for the sponsoring city/county. However, in the case of Gateway, at least, it appears that this level of development would never occur without the presence of the sports venues. Can someone smarter than me expand on why this may or may not be the case in Cleveland?

17 minutes ago, DO_Summers said:

@KJPGreat article. We often read that public funding of stadia doesn't generate economic revenue in return for the sponsoring city/county. However, in the case of Gateway, at least, it appears that this level of development would never occur without the presence of the sports venues. Can someone smarter than me expand on why this may or may not be the case in Cleveland?

Sports venues still generally rip off tax payers but they provide a lot more value for money now when done right in urban settings or with additional development or regeneration in mind. Teams realise the stadiums of yester year in the suburbs surrounded by nothing but expressways and surface parking aren't desired by the tax payer nor are they any use to teams as the venues become white elephants if they are out on an island and don't integrate into their environments. Thats why I don't get the Bills deal. They've burned tax payers for what looks like a 1970s suburban stadium plan rehashed.

 

St. Louis is a great example of that. I dread to think what their Downtown would look like without Ballpark Village and Busch Stadium there. Its been ravaged by suburban flight and decentralization way worse than ours has.

Edited April 3, 20223 yr by snakebite

I am wondering if Bedrock still has their eye on the new courthouse. That would be a great fit for the SW property just purchased.  It could go right next to the federal courthouse.

13 hours ago, freethink said:

I am wondering if Bedrock still has their eye on the new courthouse. That would be a great fit for the SW property just purchased.  It could go right next to the federal courthouse.

 

Unknown. There hasn't been much attention paid to the courthouse lately by the Justice Center Steering Committee, at least not publicly.

@KJP, sorry if I missed it in the article, but any rumors on Sherwin's plan for it's old HQ? 

Just now, Luke_S said:

@KJP, sorry if I missed it in the article, but any rumors on Sherwin's plan for it's old HQ? 

 

Not yet. But with Bedrock buying SHW's R&D, I wouldn't be surprised to see them make a play for the old HQ as well. Perhaps they already have?

Bedrock's plans for downtown have been delivered to City Hall, namely the folks at planning and the building department. And from what I can tell, Bedrock's big plans are focused on the riverfront -- not the ex-nuCLEus site. Aside from a few certificates of disclosure, the visible activity is occurring on/near the riverfront -- Bedrock changing ownership of land to Huron Holdings, Bedrock acquiring SHW's R&D (multiple sources confirming that now), Bedrock planning a major renovation to the parking structure under Tower City, etc. This is happening even though the city and Bedrock said they are a long way from finalizing a riverfront development agreement -- but that may be for the land between Canal and the river. Meanwhile someone with deep pockets is buying Stark's site and plans something bigger than nuCLEus. Sources are certain about that. While the descriptions of the buyer sounded like Bedrock, only one confirmed that it is Bedrock. Others said "Yes, Bedrock is planning something big" without providing an address. Interestingly, the description of the buyer of the nuCLEus site also applies to HBSE. And another source acknowledged that Bedrock and HBSE are coordinating their projects. But it's sounding more like the coordination is between the riverfront site and the Gateway sites, rather coordination among sites within Gateway.

Bedrock's plans for downtown have been delivered to City Hall, namely the folks at planning and the building department. And from what I can tell, Bedrock's big plans are focused on the riverfront -- not the ex-nuCLEus site. Aside from a few certificates of disclosure, the visible activity is occurring on/near the riverfront -- Bedrock changing ownership of land to Huron Holdings, Bedrock acquiring SHW's R&D (multiple sources confirming that now), Bedrock planning a major renovation to the parking structure under Tower City, etc. This is happening even though the city and Bedrock said they are a long way from finalizing a riverfront development agreement -- but that may be for the land between Canal and the river. Meanwhile someone with deep pockets is buying Stark's site and plans something bigger than nuCLEus. Sources are certain about that. While the descriptions of the buyer sounded like Bedrock, only one confirmed that it is Bedrock. Others said "Yes, Bedrock is planning something big" without providing an address. Interestingly, the description of the buyer of the nuCLEus site also applies to HBSE. And another source acknowledged that Bedrock and HBSE are coordinating their projects. But it's sounding more like the coordination is between the riverfront site and the Gateway sites, rather coordination among sites within Gateway.

[emoji378]

How soon until you think we’ll see the plans?

Bigger than nuCLEus.  Which version - 3.0?

14 minutes ago, BoomerangCleRes said:

How soon until you think we’ll see the plans?

 

You could see them by the end of today if certain city officials were feeling extra-charitable. I would gladly protect them by publishing only print-screen versions so that the digital signature ended with me. 🙂

 

BTW, another reason why I think Bedrock is looking at the riverfront first is the renderings of their conceptual plans. The building proposed across Huron from the current SHW HQ is pretty similar in each one, including a mock-up by the Downtown Cleveland Alliance in a recent promo video of theirs. They showed several downtown projects in that video and included this one, for some reason...

 

 

and

 

9 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Bigger than nuCLEus.  Which version - 3.0?

 

Source didn't say. I presume the last one.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Bedrock's plans for downtown have been delivered to City Hall, namely the folks at planning and the building department. And from what I can tell, Bedrock's big plans are focused on the riverfront -- not the ex-nuCLEus site. Aside from a few certificates of disclosure, the visible activity is occurring on/near the riverfront -- Bedrock changing ownership of land to Huron Holdings, Bedrock acquiring SHW's R&D (multiple sources confirming that now), Bedrock planning a major renovation to the parking structure under Tower City, etc. This is happening even though the city and Bedrock said they are a long way from finalizing a riverfront development agreement -- but that may be for the land between Canal and the river. Meanwhile someone with deep pockets is buying Stark's site and plans something bigger than nuCLEus. Sources are certain about that. While the descriptions of the buyer sounded like Bedrock, only one confirmed that it is Bedrock. Others said "Yes, Bedrock is planning something big" without providing an address. Interestingly, the description of the buyer of the nuCLEus site also applies to HBSE. And another source acknowledged that Bedrock and HBSE are coordinating their projects. But it's sounding more like the coordination is between the riverfront site and the Gateway sites, rather coordination among sites within Gateway.

@KJP  I guess I am a bit confused.  Is this submission to the city just part of Bedrock's slow but steady 25 year plan for the river valley?  In other words just another  more detailed conceptual vision of the master plan for discussion to reach an agreement with the city and then planning commission approval at some point for the whole vision?  Or is the submission in connection with some project construction which could start in the relatively near future.  Your multiple posts seem to be suggesting both.  This is especially true since your sources are now suggesting that somebody else other than Bedrock will buy and develop the Nucleus site,  But Rocket's lease in the Higbee Building is still a tick time bomb.  Does these mean that Bedrock is now going to construct, in the near future, a building for Rocket on the riverfront (thus these submissions to the city) rather than Stark's site?

Wait, so the Clinic is putting their new neuro building downtown? 🙃

Alot to digest here but the most interesting tidbit for me is news about the Stark  property. Potentially a different buyer...not Bedrock? If it's not HBSE then who else is in the picture with "deep pockets"? No one l can think of. And it would make sense from a proximity standpoint. If baseball is pushing a Ballpark Village then the existing Gateway land available is really not all that suited for one BUT adding the Stark site would enable HBSE to do anything really. That WOULD be outstanding. 

 

And l can't see any of it happening until Dolan gets that minority partner. So all this potential real estate talk tells me new Guardians ownership is close and man, do we need it!

 

If the above is true that allows Bedrock to focus on the riverfront without being distracted by the Stark site. And they'll need that focus because the riverfront property is huge so good news there as well. Developing that site completely should take a decade so the sooner they get started the better. No need to get distracted by building on the Stark site too. 

 

Watching all this take place is going to be fascinating. 

One source said where Bedrock intends to build (nuCLEus). All of the others say that they intend to build, and want to build big, but don't say where.

 

Other sources at the city have cryptically said that Bedrock's new construction project will enhance the riverfront but decline to identify where the project will be built.

 

No sources have said HBSE is acquiring the nuCLEus site.

 

Guardians (which is a target to be acquired by HBSE) have a purchase agreement with the city to acquire 3.8 acres of land including the Gateway East parking deck.

 

Bedrock has publicly shared lots of conceptual renderings about the riverfront and nothing about the nuCLEus site.

 

Stark denies they're selling the nuCLEus site but my sources were told differently by Stark.

 

Stark and others tell Crain's they're looking forward to nuCLEus coming back from being "on hold."

 

Bedrock last year hired a geotech firm out of Toronto to analyze its riverfront properties and then told them to stand down. Has anyone seen a geotech rig on Bedrock's riverfront properties?

 

In a recent video about downtown projects, Downtown Cleveland Alliance shared a conceptual rendering of one big new building on the riverfront but shared nothing about the nuCLEus site.

 

I published the article about Bedrock buying SHW's R&D and shared it by social media. DCA, which often likes my tweets but seldom retweets them, retweeted this one. And former Planning Director Freddie Collier shared this same article on LinkedIn with a comment about how this acquisition will help transform the riverfront.

 

I should note that DCA never retweeted my Bedrock-buys-nuCLEus articles, even though they along with the SHW R&D story were based on anonymous sources. Why'd they retweet this one?

 

The city and Bedrock agreed last November to begin pursuing a joint development agreement for the riverfront. The approved framework says they hope to get a deal in place in 18 months but can request more time if necessary. What land is this for?

 

Does the lack of a development agreement preclude Bedrock from building on its own riverfront land? Or can they build a tower now next to Huron and away from the river's edge, knowing that the rest of the riverfront plazas, bulkheads and other infrastructure can be addressed later?

 

Yes, Rocket's expiring lease at Higbee is definitely a ticking bomb for Gilbert. If Gilbert & Co intends to move Rocket to their own building, and Bedrock owns no building big enough to accommodate them (including SHW R&D), they'd better start building a new one by the end of next year which means getting the planning underway ASAP.

 

Yes, there's confusing info -- primarily because it's incomplete. And some of it is contradictory (like the geotech firm being pulled back or the long time before the city-Bedrock deal is finalized). What does this all mean??

 

@KJPchanneling his inner Agatha Christie - gotta love  it - nothing better than a good mystery.  Especially one with a spectacular ending - here’s hoping we get a really  BIG  finish! 

Love this news! To be honest, I was skeptical of the ‘Vision for the Valley’ and other riverfront plans because there have been several plans for this in the past. I’m impressed by how quickly this is moving forward.

I don't know what's going on at nuCLEus anymore (see what I just posted in the Tower City thread), but I have a hard time believing Bedrock is going to build two huge developments downtown at the same time. I have confidence in my sources who relayed info from Stark execs that they are selling the nuCLEus site. The price wasn't disclosed, but they were told it was for a 3 cap. With that kind of return, you'd have to be expecting a big development on that site to generate enough revenue to get a return like that on what is almost certainly a sale price in the $20 million to $40 million range.

“3 cap” meaning cap rate of 3%? Based on revenue from the current operation of the site?

8 minutes ago, StapHanger said:

“3 cap” meaning cap rate of 3%? Based on revenue from the current operation of the site?

 

Since I don't know finance, would 3 percent make more sense as an attractive rate of return from the current uses or whatever the buyer has in mind for the site? 

As of a few years ago I think the cap rate in CLE was generally very high, like 10% high (meaning sales prices were low compared to current revenue).  I honestly don't know what existing developments trade for in Cleveland these days, but for a property with obvious redevelopment potential, a low cap rate makes sense. I guess I was just surprised to see a cap rate cited at all for a development site like this, but I suppose it make sense given the sizable parking revenue it brings in. 

A late night thought I had regarding the Stark property project. I hope that whoever takes it over, no matter how tall they build, retain the lower-level design of the most recent nuCLEus proposal. Loved how it would give the area a Times Square feeling with all the digital boards.
 

Coupled with the FieldHouse’s colorful facade, it’d create a great atmosphere on game days.

 

Guardians buy land, but no ballpark village yet
By Ken Prendergast / May 15, 2022

 

An affiliate of the Cleveland Guardians baseball team has exercised one of two property acquisition options that were offered when the team extended its lease on Jan. 1 to play at Progressive Field for at least another 15 years. The property acquired is a half-acre parcel next to the ballpark and located at the southwest corner of East 9th Street and Bolivar Road.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/05/15/guardians-buy-land-but-no-ballpark-village-yet/

mike white actually did the city a solid in this instance by not allowing that hideous generic courtyard hotel fortress to be built there. in the meantime, the who’s on first block is a very nice entrance to the ballpark. hopefully someday it gets redeveloped into a more attractive building as ballpark village plans move along.

The thing I find most interesting in an article filled with numerous interesting tidbits is that a well know and established Chardon law firm is moving its downtown office to Gordon Square.  I would sure like to know the backstory.  Normally I would find a firm moving out of downtown (even a branch office) problematic but I sort of like the idea of this.

11 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

The thing I find most interesting in an article filled with numerous interesting tidbits is that a well know and established Chardon law firm is moving its downtown office to Gordon Square.  I would sure like to know the backstory.  Normally I would find a firm moving out of downtown (even a branch office) problematic but I sort of like the idea of this.

 

One of the reasons why I mentioned it is just in case the Krueger Group has some kind of eventual involvement in a ballpark village development. Then we can see where its involvement might have started.

This is all very exciting and it will be so interesting to watch this develop over the next few years.  One thing that stands out to me in that picture... the AT&T Building is SCREAMING to be redeveloped. I hope something happens there too.

^ Wasn't there a proposal recently to add more floors on top of the AT&T building?

2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

^ Wasn't there a proposal recently to add more floors on top of the AT&T building?

 

No, just to convert a significant portion of the building to apartments and hotel rooms. How would you add floors to the top of this building?

 

2 hours ago, mrclifton88 said:

This is all very exciting and it will be so interesting to watch this develop over the next few years.  

 

I get the sense that the Guardians share of the ballpark village is the long play. Before anything is done with the Gateway East Garage, a new garage would have to be built anyway, and the Stark site is probably the best place for the replacement. 

18 hours ago, KJP said:

No, just to convert a significant portion of the building to apartments and hotel rooms. How would you add floors to the top of this building?

It was something that was posted in Random Visualization thread a while back.  Here it is:

Edited May 16, 20223 yr by LibertyBlvd

5 hours ago, KJP said:

I get the sense that the Guardians share of the ballpark village is the long play. Before anything is done with the Gateway East Garage, a new garage would have to be built anyway, and the Stark site is probably the best place for the replacement. 

If it helps get the ballpark village accomplished, I suppose a garage isn’t a bad thing. But the idea of the NuCLEus site after all of this time becoming a five-story parking garage is very ironic.

If it helps get the ballpark village accomplished, I suppose a garage isn’t a bad thing. But the idea of the NuCLEus site after all of this time becoming a five-story parking garage is very ironic.

As long as it has retail and can support a tower I’m fine with it.


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32 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

If it helps get the ballpark village accomplished, I suppose a garage isn’t a bad thing. But the idea of the NuCLEus site after all of this time becoming a five-story parking garage is very ironic.

If I recall correctly @KJP's  original reporting on a potential Bedrock development on the Nucleus site suggested a huge garage was probably going to be part of the project but that it would serve a large scale development on the site as well as Progressive Field and Rocket Field House and that Bedrock (Gilbert) would be working with the minority owners in this regard.

They pretty much have to build a huge garage if they're going to do anything with the Gateway East Garage.

Just a side note that they're filming in the ATT building today, whoever it is they're also using the old Winking Lizard for food (trucks say NBC Universal on them). Only posting here because it was part of the conversation a bit up thread. I was surprised to see them going in/out of the building knowing how high security it seems.

5 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Just a side note that they're filming in the ATT building today, whoever it is they're also using the old Winking Lizard for food (trucks say NBC Universal on them). Only posting here because it was part of the conversation a bit up thread. I was surprised to see them going in/out of the building knowing how high security it seems.

 

Check the Cleveland movie/films/tv thread. It's probably related to the movie filming on Clifton on Friday I mentioned there.

22 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

It was something that was posted in Random Visualization thread a while back.  Here it is:

 

 

awesome — but that’s going to take robert a.m. stern money.

 

Guardians suitor, real estate may not happen
By Ken Prendergast / May 23, 2022

 

According to sources, there is a reason why NEOtrans first started hearing a lot about Bedrock-HBSE joint development near the Gateway sports complex, and then heard nothing. That void was filled by new activity surrounding Bedrock Real Estate’s interest in the riverfront below Tower City Center instead.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/05/23/guardians-suitor-real-estate-may-not-happen/