5 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

So the only developer bullish on Cleveland is from Detroit.

Not true. The people who built Intro are from Chicago. According to KJP’s articles over the past year, Cleveland real estate is attracting attention from many parts of the US. 
 

I don’t think it matters where the interest or money is coming from, as long as it’s coming. 

I find it interesting that Stark kept the Herold Building on Prospect.  I liked Stark's earlier plan to remake it into an 8-story glassy thing.

This site can be developed much easier, and much quicker than TC.  Bedrock may be in a more favorable finacial position than Stark with regard to lending and therefore be able to develop this for Starks intrested tenants.  

6 hours ago, Dougal said:

I find it interesting that Stark kept the Herold Building on Prospect.  I liked Stark's earlier plan to remake it into an 8-story glassy thing.

My guess is that it was more Bedrock not wanting it rather than Stark wanting to keep it.  If it wasn't for Landmarks Stark would have demo'd it a long time ago.

This purchase by Bedrock is both exciting and perplexing. On the one hand a developer with the ability to put something meaningful on a very important blank piece of real estate has bought in. On the other hand said developer seems to have their hands full with the massive Tower City project. Perhaps they can walk and chew gum at the same time. l wonder about that. 

 

But does it make financial sense to pay 30 million for the site only to mothball it for a later date? And why would you pay that kind of money only to build something "underwhelming?" Logic seems to suggest something very large will be built sooner rather than later. Then again, does Bedrock have the ability to do that now along with Tower City? I think that's a big ask and that's why l say the whole thing is both exciting and perplexing.

I would put money on the Nucleus site with a shovel in it long before Tower City.    It's smack dab in the middle of all their Cleveland assets (Cavs-sportsbook-Casino) and will have immediate profits.  I could see Bedrock borrowing a design from Detroit, tweaking it and dropping it in this site before anything else.  

5 hours ago, Jenny said:

This site can be developed much easier, and much quicker than TC.  Bedrock may be in a more favorable finacial position than Stark with regard to lending and therefore be able to develop this for Starks intrested tenants.  

Very true- though I would suspect the City would still have to do infrastructure improvements to the water and sewer lines underground, same as was required before SHW began construction.

 

And @KJP...

 

Yes, the nuCLEus site is more shovel-ready than Tower City which requires significant planning and design IMO.   And it would be nice to develop the available parcels in the downtown core before developing on the perimeter of downtown.

just as long as they keep mr. alberts. 👍

I think its safe to assume Stark's office LOIs are no longer valid or interested seeing what Covid and WFH did to the office market. And the big name, Benesch, has already moved on. But RETAIL has made a bit of a comeback in the last few years. For the first time in 20 or so years, more physical stores in terms of space opened in the US than closed. The new model/structure of retail is becoming hybrid of in-store and online--a new development that I hope becomes the new trend. That said, we could still hope for good retail here, like a Target or Ikea on the first few levels of 60-story apartment/condo buildings, a hotel, and perhaps a mixed use office/hotel/apt bldg. I liked Stark's "Lane" concept and hope that there is stuff like that at this site.

Edited January 7, 20232 yr by ProspectAve

18 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

Not true. The people who built Intro are from Chicago. According to KJP’s articles over the past year, Cleveland real estate is attracting attention from many parts of the US. 

Yes, I realize that. My point is there really haven't been any LOCAL developers bullish on Cleveland since Richard Jacobs departed. Perhaps Scott Wolstein to a degree, but he was not nearly as aggressive as Mr. Jacobs.  I know he was impeded by the great recession.  Of course he's gone now. And Forest City is gone. Even before they bailed out, all of there projects after Tower City were done out-of-state. Starks did Beacon, but other than that, he was more talk than action. 

 

Edited January 7, 20232 yr by LibertyBlvd

29 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Yes, the nuCLEus site is more shovel-ready than Tower City which requires significant planning and design IMO.   And it would be nice to develop the available parcels in the downtown core before developing on the perimeter of downtown.

 

Before anything is done at Tower City, I'd like to see decisions made around rail made so that any new development doesn't deem such rail projects impossible, so I hope for the Nucleus site to be Bedrock's focus here. Re Tower City, I'm talking about running Amtrak into the Terminal Tower---meaning more tracks and platforms--especially if we get more Amtrak service. The CVSR. And any future 3c or Cleveland-Akron-Canton commuter line that may go into the station.

9 minutes ago, ProspectAve said:

I think its safe to assume Stark's office LOI are no longer valid or interested seeing what Covid and WFH did to the office market. But RETAIL has made a bit of a comeback in the last few years. For the first time in 20 or so years, more physical stores in terms of space opened in the US than closed. The new model/structure of retail is becoming hybrid of in-store and online--a new development that I hope becomes the new trend. That said, we could still hope for good retail here, like a Target or Ikea on the first few levels of 60-story apartment/condo buildings, a hotel, and perhaps a mixed use office/hotel/apt bldg. I liked Stark's "Lane" concept and hope that there is stuff like that at this site.

 

 

something within stark's reach that would build good will that he could do and has done out here in brooklyn, for example, is take over the leases of the street level shops in an old city office building downtown. it has small ball stuff like an h&r block, optical store, starbucks, eyebrow place and a 7/11. presumably those rents are making him a little money. i would like to see him bring that kind of 'city' stuff in around downtown cleveland, especially because it seems he can handle retail like that better than development.

 

if you want to see it:

https://goo.gl/maps/SY91spWpdZexFYYB8

 

6 minutes ago, ProspectAve said:

 

Before anything is done at Tower City, I'd like to see decisions made around rail made so that any new development doesn't deem such rail projects impossible, so I hope for the Nucleus site to be Bedrock's focus here. Re Tower City, I'm talking about running Amtrak into the Terminal Tower---meaning more tracks and platforms--especially if we get more Amtrak service. The CVSR. And any future 3c or Cleveland-Akron-Canton commuter line that may go into the station.

I thought @KJP  said a while back that Amtrak moving to Tower City was unlikely, but who knows.

So... this morning I went through the Cleveland Visualizations thread from front to back (I would NOT recommend doing that unless you have time :-D ) and this rendering by @Geowizicalisn't just OUTSTANDING, but it seems as though this could mostly be realized within the next few years with Bedrock now owning the NuCLEus site.

 

 

^this just reminds me how stupid those townhomes covering the parking garage look

So, he sold it for a cool 30 million. Does anyone remember how much Stark paid for this property in 2014? @KJP?

Bring back the Jenga tower, Bedrock! 😁

Edited January 7, 20232 yr by Silent Matt

 I'm sure Stark made a nice profit.  Perhaps that was his plan all along.

4 hours ago, ProspectAve said:

I think its safe to assume Stark's office LOIs are no longer valid or interested seeing what Covid and WFH did to the office market. And the big name, Benesch, has already moved on. But RETAIL has made a bit of a comeback in the last few years. For the first time in 20 or so years, more physical stores in terms of space opened in the US than closed. The new model/structure of retail is becoming hybrid of in-store and online--a new development that I hope becomes the new trend. That said, we could still hope for good retail here, like a Target or Ikea on the first few levels of 60-story apartment/condo buildings, a hotel, and perhaps a mixed use office/hotel/apt bldg. I liked Stark's "Lane" concept and hope that there is stuff like that at this site.

I knew Cleveland Live! was too good to be true.

12 hours ago, cadmen said:

This purchase by Bedrock is both exciting and perplexing. On the one hand a developer with the ability to put something meaningful on a very important blank piece of real estate has bought in. On the other hand said developer seems to have their hands full with the massive Tower City project. Perhaps they can walk and chew gum at the same time. l wonder about that. 

 

But does it make financial sense to pay 30 million for the site only to mothball it for a later date? And why would you pay that kind of money only to build something "underwhelming?" Logic seems to suggest something very large will be built sooner rather than later. Then again, does Bedrock have the ability to do that now along with Tower City? I think that's a big ask and that's why l say the whole thing is both exciting and perplexing.

 

I'm confused too. But I'm also thinking that this may be part of a long-term play involving some very large chess pieces. 

 

10 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

And @KJP...

 

 

Thanks!

 

10 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Yes, I realize that. My point is there really haven't been any LOCAL developers bullish on Cleveland since Richard Jacobs departed. Perhaps Scott Wolstein to a degree, but he was not nearly as aggressive as Mr. Jacobs.  I know he was impeded by the great recession.  Of course he's gone now. And Forest City is gone. Even before they bailed out, all of there projects after Tower City were done out-of-state. Starks did Beacon, but other than that, he was more talk than action. 

 

 

Untrue. Then you're not following the Risman family, the Geis family, the Maron family, Elie Weiss, Steve Rubin, Jim Doyle, Zac Ponsky, Ned Huffman, Nathan Wynveen, Michael Panzica, Bo Knez, Graham Veysey, Ron Leonhardt Jr., Jon Pinney, and others I'm probably too tired to think about right now. But the reason why stuff is getting built here is because of them and friends from Chicago and a few other cities.

 

10 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I thought @KJP  said a while back that Amtrak moving to Tower City was unlikely, but who knows.

 

Very unlikely. 

 

8 hours ago, Silent Matt said:

So, he sold it for a cool 30 million. Does anyone remember how much Stark paid for this property in 2014? @KJP?

Bring back the Jenga tower, Bedrock! 😁

 

Stark & Dessler's partnership of Gateway Huron LLC purchased 20 parcels in 2014 for $18.25 million. Separately, Stark paid $1 million for the Herold Building which wasn't part of the sale to Bedrock.

It could very well be a long-term play; if memory serves me correctly Bedrock paid $80 million for the riverfront land from Forest City.  Of course there needs to be a lot of infrastructure work before the land can be built on as envisioned, yet still there's been no movement and it's been a few years now.  We all remember phase 2 of the casino and I think it's been over six years now since that was teased.  

 

One big difference between the former nuCLEus site and the riverfront is that the NuCLEus site is much more shovel ready.   If/when we see digging up around the perimeter of the site (same as we saw with SHW along W. 3rd before construction was announced, another @KJPscoop), we'll know something is imminent.     

 

And I'm sure we'll know before everyone else does if/when things will begin here as I'd bet @KJPgets the scoop yet again.

 

 

On 1/7/2023 at 10:51 AM, cadmen said:

developer seems to have their hands full with the massive Tower City project.

Let's not forget that Bedrock is also in the middle of a $1.4B construction project (Hudson's) and is also actively acquiring land in Detroit.  So, yeah, they have a lot going on now.  But also, The Riverfront is going to be an ongoing process for several years.  The master planning and infrastructure phases don't take a ton of staff or money (relatively speaking of course).  I think they can handle a shovel ready development at Nucleus while they are prepping the Riverfront for new development.  No matter what, I think Bedrock buying the Nucleus site means we're getting closer to seeing construction there.

It's only three years before Rocket Mortgage's office lease at the Higbee Building expires.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

It's only three years before Rocket Mortgage's office lease at the Higbee Building expires.

I'm sure you've reported this before, but can you remind us all of what their current and possible future space needs are?

5 minutes ago, Dino said:

I'm sure you've reported this before, but can you remind us all of what their current and possible future space needs are?

 

I believe it was up to 300,000 sf

 

E&Y is on the move too but may want something sooner

Why is E & Y on the move? They are in a brand new office Building in the flats east bank  with all the bells & whistles and they have their name on the building.

^ Good question.  And what is available downtown comparable to their current building?

 

Edited January 9, 20232 yr by LibertyBlvd

36 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Why is E & Y on the move? They are in a brand new office Building in the flats east bank  with all the bells & whistles and they have their name on the building.

 

Don't know. They've not responded.

36 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Why is E & Y on the move? They are in a brand new office Building in the flats east bank  with all the bells & whistles and they have their name on the building.

 

They had a lot of back office and IT functions from when their headquarters was here. I imagine a lot of that either went and stayed remote after the pandemic and/or they consolidated to their HQ in NYC.

5 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

They had a lot of back office and IT functions from when their headquarters was here. I imagine a lot of that either went and stayed remote after the pandemic and/or they consolidated to their HQ in NYC.

I think you're correct.  Space needs are changing (both in amount and in function).  Companies are going to need less space (as more workers stay remote or hybrid) and they are going to need potentially different space to accommodate workers that are only in the office a few days a week.

There will be some companies that force all their employees back into the office and, as such, there may be the occasional single-tenant office space.  I suspect that is less likely now more than ever.

Developers interested in large scale projects (the tall eye-catching ones) are likely going to need to consider buildings that are working mini-cities (a mixed of residential, office, hotel, retail, etc) or multi-tenant.

Companies, like E&Y, Cliffs, etc, will continue to want Class A Office space for their employees.  I just think that they are going to need less of it, different space and different amenities.

The developers that get this right will attract interested clients and the companies that get this right will attract interested talent.  

^ indeed and unfortunately e&y hq moved into one manhattan west in the hudson yards in 2021 and consolidated a lot there — they got 675k sq ft and at least 17 of the 67 floors in the building — 

 

 

Ernst & Young LLP (EY US) announced today that it will officially open its new US headquarters at One Manhattan West on Monday, July 19. It will be the first day that EY professionals can begin occupying its new office, located in the Manhattan West neighborhood near the Hudson Yards district. More than 12,000 EY professionals call New York City their home office — the most of any single office in the global organization of EY member firms.

 

more:

https://www.ey.com/en_us/news/2021/07/ey-us-opens-us-headquarters-at-one-manhattan-west

 

https://nypost.com/2018/01/02/ey-signs-for-extra-space-in-one-manhattan-west/

 

 

Edited January 10, 20232 yr by mrnyc

Re EY, its probably because they need less space---but why not just re-up for less space in their current bldg? I wonder if they feel too isolated all the way on W. 11. They used to be in the heart of Downtown--at E. 9 and Euclid. Now there are no other office bldgs around unless they climb the hill up to the Warehouse District. Sure, they have office 'neighbors' on other floors of the bldg, but its a different vibe than being around other bldgs. I wonder if this "office isolation" plays a role. And if so, it presents the need to develop some more office space nearby-- could be mixed use bldgs in the current heavy WFH environment.

Bedrock paid $26.5 million for former NuCLEus site, records show.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/bedrock-paid-265-million-key-downtown-cleveland-development-site

 

For comparisons on land value:

 

This site = $8.3M per acre.

 

"...Sherwin-Williams paid $49.4 million in early 2020 for nearly 7 acres of pavement. The costliest parcel in that deal was a 1.17-acre lot just off Public Square, which sold for $9.2 million, or $7.86 million an acre. Other recent downtown land sales have ranged from $3.8 million to $6 million an acre, according to public records...."

Edited January 17, 20232 yr by ProspectAve

At that price l can't imagine Bedrock NOT building something substantial. The question is when?

 

Rock Ventures: First Detroit, now Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / January 24, 2023

 

Billionaire Dan Gilbert can ride up and down Woodward Avenue in downtown Detroit and admire his work like no one else can. He can point at buildings like a kid checking out baseball cards in a collector’s showcase and say “got it, need it, got it, got it…”

 

Perhaps he and his real estate company Bedrock might have the opportunity to do that soon in downtown Cleveland, too. And while Euclid Avenue is our main street like Woodward is Detroit’s, most of Gilbert’s acquisitions in Cleveland are along Prospect Avenue and Huron Road. There are some other differences as well, which may offer the opportunity for seeing some more construction workers and cranes in downtown Cleveland. Thankfully, Gilbert can count his properties and his blessings as he is almost fully recovered from a 2019 stroke.

 

MORE

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/01/24/rock-ventures-first-detroit-now-cleveland/

3 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Rock Ventures: First Detroit, now Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / January 24, 2023

 

Billionaire Dan Gilbert can ride up and down Woodward Avenue in downtown Detroit and admire his work like no one else can. He can point at buildings like a kid checking out baseball cards in a collector’s showcase and say “got it, need it, got it, got it…”

 

Perhaps he and his real estate company Bedrock might have the opportunity to do that soon in downtown Cleveland, too. And while Euclid Avenue is our main street like Woodward is Detroit’s, most of Gilbert’s acquisitions in Cleveland are along Prospect Avenue and Huron Road. There are some other differences as well, which may offer the opportunity for seeing some more construction workers and cranes in downtown Cleveland. Thankfully, Gilbert can count his properties and his blessings as he is almost fully recovered from a 2019 stroke.

 

MORE

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/01/24/rock-ventures-first-detroit-now-cleveland/

Does Not Link

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Rock Ventures: First Detroit, now Cleveland
By Ken Prendergast / January 24, 2023

 

Billionaire Dan Gilbert can ride up and down Woodward Avenue in downtown Detroit and admire his work like no one else can. He can point at buildings like a kid checking out baseball cards in a collector’s showcase and say “got it, need it, got it, got it…”

 

Perhaps he and his real estate company Bedrock might have the opportunity to do that soon in downtown Cleveland, too. And while Euclid Avenue is our main street like Woodward is Detroit’s, most of Gilbert’s acquisitions in Cleveland are along Prospect Avenue and Huron Road. There are some other differences as well, which may offer the opportunity for seeing some more construction workers and cranes in downtown Cleveland. Thankfully, Gilbert can count his properties and his blessings as he is almost fully recovered from a 2019 stroke.

 

MORE

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/01/24/rock-ventures-first-detroit-now-cleveland/

Anyone else hoping that any Rock Ventures new building includes additional space for the "flight to quality".  

Calling Mr. Goncalves?  Mr. Goncalves are you there???

Was just talking to a guy at work a few minutes ago who is getting ready to head downtown. I asked where to and he said E. 6 and Bolivar. He said there is a two-story parking garage that is having four floors of apartments built on top of it. I don't recall hearing anything about this development. This site is directly in between Progressive and Rocket Mortgage. Could this be a start of a ballpark village?

 

6 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Was just talking to a guy at work a few minutes ago who is getting ready to head downtown. I asked where to and he said E. 6 and Bolivar. He said there is a two-story parking garage that is having four floors of apartments built on top of it. I don't recall hearing anything about this development. This site is directly in between Progressive and Rocket Mortgage. Could this be a start of a ballpark village?

 

 

 

Damnit, apologies everyone. He misspoke, it's actually E. 9 and Bolivar. He showed me the site pictures, so he is heading to where the new apartments on Bolivar, east of E. 9 are going. Updating all the transformers. Apologies if anyone got excited like me.

7 minutes ago, GREGinPARMA said:

Was just talking to a guy at work a few minutes ago who is getting ready to head downtown. I asked where to and he said E. 6 and Bolivar. He said there is a two-story parking garage that is having four floors of apartments built on top of it. I don't recall hearing anything about this development. This site is directly in between Progressive and Rocket Mortgage. Could this be a start of a ballpark village?

 

 

It's in the general gateway thread. 

 

On 9/12/2022 at 10:47 PM, dwolfi01 said:

The Bolivar Rd Apartments are on the CPC agenda for final approval this Friday. I'm really excited about this project. It will help activate a really dead street right by Progressive Field!

 

https://assets.adobe.com/public/45d23a2c-0d9b-4658-591f-9537656e0574/Downtown Flats/Bolivar Road Apartments- Final DRAC %26 PC Presentation - 220915.pdf

 

 

4 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said:

 

 

Damnit, apologies everyone. He misspoke, it's actually E. 9 and Bolivar. He showed me the site pictures, so he is heading to where the new apartments on Bolivar, east of E. 9 are going. Updating all the transformers. Apologies if anyone got excited like me.

 

I really hope that parking garage on Bolivar gets an upgrade to cameras etc. as the result of this new development. Or is the one that gets redeveloped. Had my bike stolen out of my car there last year and none of the cameras worked. That stretch seems to attract all the shady downtown lurkers, and not in a good way. It can't get cleaned up fast enough. 

 

Edited February 1, 20232 yr by ASP1984

 

Seeds & Sprouts XXIX – CSU to start arena plans, Downtown garage demo, Olde Cedar’s replacement

By Ken Prendergast / June 21, 2023

 

Cleveland State University is about to start work on plans for a new arena, a downtown parking garage will be demolished -- for a parking lot, and one of the oldest public housing projects in the USA along with the old juvenile justice center will be demolished for a mixed-income housing complex.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/06/21/seeds-sprouts-xxix-csu-to-start-arena-plans-downtown-garage-demo-olde-cedars-replacement/

 

Let’s hope it’s not years and years until a “high impact” development happens on the Nucleus site - as exciting as the possible riverfront developments are - The signals from Bedrock regarding 611 Huron Road are that it is ready to wait - possibly  a very long time  - and, frankly, that’s a big disappointment. 

Yeah, this is a bummer.  That huge parking crater will be getting bigger and could remain for quite a while as Bedrock will be steering new development opportunities to their riverfront project. Euclid Ave has been nicely transformed. I would like to see the same with Prospect and Huron, but apparently it won't be happening anytime soon.

 

Edited June 22, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd

So does this basically put the kibosh on a Ballpark Village for a long time?

I thought this lot was going to be incorporated into it.

Can't they program the vacant lot so it's not just a bunch of cars? In DC near the National's stadium there is The Bullpen, which is basically just a parking lot surrounded by shipping containers where there are picnic tables, food trucks, beer and music. It's a popular spot to go before games. 

Edited June 22, 20231 yr by coneflower
grammar

2 hours ago, GREGinPARMA said:

So does this basically put the kibosh on a Ballpark Village for a long time?

I thought this lot was going to be incorporated into it.

 

For Bedrock? Yes, probably. For others? Not necessarily.

Definitely a bummer to not have any plans for it other than a small parking lot, but tearing it down definitely seems appropriate given in how bad of shape its in. 

 

I'm not an engineer, but the amount of rusting rebar you can see sticking out of the concrete is concerning.

I still cannot figure out why Bedrock bought this property unless certain events to which we are not privy turned the focus to the riverfront right after closing.  I am not an expert but maybe there are some corporate tax benefits in the short term with the long term plan being to sell it to other developers at a profit.  My biggest bummer is that years later there are still no plans to re-hab that little historic building on Prospect which more or less kick started the purchase by Stark from those out of state investors way back when.

1 hour ago, coneflower said:

Can't they program the vacant lot so it's not just a bunch of cars? In DC near the National's stadium there is The Bullpen, which is basically just a parking lot surrounded by shipping containers where there are picnic tables, food trucks, beer and music. It's a popular spot to go before games. 

That would be a great activation of the lot and is an outstanding idea!