For anyone who hasn't been following the world of semiconductor manufacturing recently, it is important to know that Intel has fallen way behind their competition in recent years, and this new facility is a part of an extremely ambitious effort to get the company back on track:

 

Quote

For decades, Intel was the leading maker of the world’s most advanced chips. Of late, the company has been unable to keep up with the pace of change that co-founder Gordon Moore forecast for the technology industry. [...]

 

“Intel was the Moore’s Law company and the undisputed leader,” said Christopher Rolland, an analyst at Susquehanna. “And something that was supposed to take them two years instead took them more than five. And they still struggle to get back on Moore’s Law today.” [...]

 

“We had some missteps,” said Pat Gelsinger, who took over as Intel’s CEO in February. “The strategy had become a little bit confused on the role that we’re going to play in manufacturing for the long term. And now we’re leaning back into that with clarity, with clear urgency.”

 

Gelsinger has an ambitious roadmap to catch and surpass Samsung and TSMC by 2025. Key to the plan is a series of massive new chip fabrication plants, or fabs, that Intel is building in the U.S., Europe and Israel. Combined, they will cost more than $44 billion to build.

 

Will they be successful?

 

Quote

The next steps in Intel’s playbook include a chip so efficient that the company didn’t measure it in nanometers but with an even smaller unit of measurement called the angstrom. Intel said the 18a, which is in development for 2025, will accelerate the company past its competitors. [...]

 

“We will be the world’s largest integrated design and manufacturer of silicon for the long term,” Gelsinger said.

 

“It’s a tall order and it is not my expectation that he will hit that,” Susquehanna’s Rolland said. “But if he could hit that timetable, it would put them back, in my opinion, on par with TSM head to head.”

 

Intel picks Columbus area for largest chip factory in the world

https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2022/01/21/intel-ohio-building-computer-chip-factories-licking-county-jersey-township/9173472002/

 

“The factories, called fabs, will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000 per year. On top of that, the project is expected to create 7,000 construction jobs and 10,000 indirect jobs. And that's just the start.”

 

An average salary of $135k would be great, but that just seems wildly unrealistic. Even if there is zero low-skill labor I don’t know how you’d get to that. Most of the jobs will be in manufacturing, which pays well, but not THAT well. If this works out there will be many good paying jobs, it would just be nice if these projections were more realistic.

 

Columbus being mentioned on several national news morning programs this morning!!!

7 hours ago, HoustonBuckeye said:

“Now we’re going to do the Silicon Heartland.”

 

I've been thinking on this branding, I think we can do better than Silicon Heartland. A few alternatives that come to mind:

 

• Silicon Cornfield

• Silicon Pasture

• Silicon Farms

• Silicon Escarpment or Silicon Plateau (the location is between the Berea and Allegheny Escarpments, identified as the Galion Glaciated Low Plateau)

I actually think "Silicon Heartland" has a fantastic ring to it!!  This development, when built completely built out, will benefit the entire region of the country..."The Heartland"!!!  This is bigger than just Columbus. 

54 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Intel picks Columbus area for largest chip factory in the world

https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2022/01/21/intel-ohio-building-computer-chip-factories-licking-county-jersey-township/9173472002/

 

“The factories, called fabs, will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000 per year. On top of that, the project is expected to create 7,000 construction jobs and 10,000 indirect jobs. And that's just the start.”

 

An average salary of $135k would be great, but that just seems wildly unrealistic. Even if there is zero low-skill labor I don’t know how you’d get to that. Most of the jobs will be in manufacturing, which pays well, but not THAT well. If this works out there will be many good paying jobs, it would just be nice if these projections were more realistic.

 

Based on the below details, I'm not sure it's so outlandish.....but we will see.

 

"Intel was also drawn to Ohio because of the availability of talent to draw on from local colleges and universities. Making semiconductor chips is a completely different type of work than making cars; much of the work is done by engineers in “bunny suits”—protective clothing that ensures that no dust gets into the microchips. Over the last two years, 60% of Intel’s external hires have had a bachelor’s degree or higher. The company said it will spend $100 million over the next 10 years to establish the Intel Ohio Semiconductor Center for Innovation, a partnership with universities and community colleges to build semiconductor-specific curricula."

 

There was also mention of the new Innovation District at Ohio State in the Time article.

Edited January 21, 20223 yr by Gnoraa

57 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Intel picks Columbus area for largest chip factory in the world

https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2022/01/21/intel-ohio-building-computer-chip-factories-licking-county-jersey-township/9173472002/

 

“The factories, called fabs, will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000 per year. On top of that, the project is expected to create 7,000 construction jobs and 10,000 indirect jobs. And that's just the start.”

 

An average salary of $135k would be great, but that just seems wildly unrealistic. Even if there is zero low-skill labor I don’t know how you’d get to that. Most of the jobs will be in manufacturing, which pays well, but not THAT well. If this works out there will be many good paying jobs, it would just be nice if these projections were more realistic.

 

They aren't manufacturing jobs though, they are highly skilled engineering and technician jobs which likely require at least a bachelors degree to even get an interview. These aren't potato chips! This factory will likely have some of the most advanced technology in the world in it and with that level of advanced technology you need highly skilled well trained workers to maintain and operate everything and that generally comes with a pretty darn decent salary. They are not going to be assembly line jobs, those generally lower paying manufacturing jobs are what's going to be automated and the people making $135K are going to be operating and maintaining that equipment.

IN CASE ANYONE MISSED THIS WARNING FROM THE PREVIOUS PAGE

 

It seemed like it was going to be inevitable that someone from outside Central Ohio would go over the line with a blatantly ignorant post that bashed Columbus.  A poster from outside Central Ohio did just that and was given one day off as a prize.

 

And that will be the prize for any other non-Central Ohio posters who similarly tries to bash Columbus and/or Central Ohio in this, or any other Central Ohio thread in the future:

 

First Offense:  One day off

Second Offense:  One week off

Third Offense:  One month off

 

And if any non-Central Ohio poster thinks that is a harsh punishment, I am willing to mete out the same penalty to any Central Ohio poster who does the same thing in your posts about your city(!)

 

And I would add that trolling posts will be deleted as quickly as possible, such as the trolling billboard post that @Ram23 just posted.

24 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

Columbus being mentioned on several national news morning programs this morning!!!

And for something positive for once!

3 minutes ago, TIm said:

They aren't manufacturing jobs though, they are highly skilled engineering and technician jobs which likely require at least a bachelors degree to even get an interview. These aren't potato chips! This factory will likely have some of the most advanced technology in the world in it and with that level of advanced technology you need highly skilled well trained workers to maintain and operate everything and that generally comes with a pretty darn decent salary. They are not going to be assembly line jobs, those generally lower paying manufacturing jobs are what's going to be automated and the people making $135K are going to be operating and maintaining that equipment.

This is huge win for Central Ohio and hopefully for Ohio as a whole. Other regions in the state should look into leveraging their assets to compete for any indirect/ supply chain business that could spin off. 

Just saw this tweet from the White House. I love seeing Columbus on the big stage. 

 

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Intel picks Columbus area for largest chip factory in the world

https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2022/01/21/intel-ohio-building-computer-chip-factories-licking-county-jersey-township/9173472002/

 

“The factories, called fabs, will employ 3,000 workers at an average salary of $135,000 per year. On top of that, the project is expected to create 7,000 construction jobs and 10,000 indirect jobs. And that's just the start.”

 

An average salary of $135k would be great, but that just seems wildly unrealistic. Even if there is zero low-skill labor I don’t know how you’d get to that. Most of the jobs will be in manufacturing, which pays well, but not THAT well. If this works out there will be many good paying jobs, it would just be nice if these projections were more realistic.

 

 

Ordinarily, these type of salary figures are inclusive of the entire benefits package offered to employees. I would guess that only 70% of that $135,000 figure is actual salary, with the remainder being health insurance, retirement, voluntary benefits, etc. That brings the actual salary average down to about $95,000, which is a much more believable figure. Also, its important to note that they used average  salary and not median salary. A plant manager making $1.5 million will dramatically increase any average salary figure. 

This is going to be great for central Ohio, just wish I had bought my licking county farm sooner 🤣🤣🤣

38 minutes ago, mrCharlie said:

 

I've been thinking on this branding, I think we can do better than Silicon Heartland. A few alternatives that come to mind:

 

• Silicon Cornfield

• Silicon Pasture

• Silicon Farms

• Silicon Escarpment or Silicon Plateau (the location is between the Berea and Allegheny Escarpments, identified as the Galion Glaciated Low Plateau)

 

Or just Silicohio.

This is a bit from an article from The Verge. https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/21/22894612/intel-ohio-chip-plant-20-billion-processor-shortage
 

Intel’s search for its new manufacturing hub reportedly saw states competing for the huge economic opportunity a new plant represents. Time reports that at least one other state offered more subsidies, but Ohio was a better regulatory fit and Intel didn’t want to displace current residents.

 

This is a comment from the article,

 

“I’m shocked it’s Columbus and not Cleavland, if only because there’s more room, water, and ways to bring in people. But, I understand it.

With that said, will this be Foxconn 2.0?”

 

Edited January 21, 20223 yr by VintageLife

2 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Or just Silicohio.

 

🤦‍♂️

I think a good comparison starting point for how this project will affect the region is Honda in Marysville. Honda has about 13,000 employees at a few facilities. The saturation of employees who owe their livelihood to Honda in that area is...very high. In Union County, probably at least one in ten people work directly for Honda, and probably more than half have a job that wouldn't exist without Honda either because they work at a supplier or contractor or because they work in a service industry that is propped up by employees of Honda and its suppliers. That's Union County, but there are lots of Honda employees in Columbus and the western suburbs, and there are suppliers scattered across the state. This article is a good example.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2013/10/25/whats-honda-worth-to-ohio-suppliers.html

 

All that being said, the Intel factory is probably a bigger deal.

I've been a little worried that something could happen with the federal funding part of the equation that could delay this project.  

There's a quote in The Dispatch that helps put my mind at ease a little bit...

 

"The first phase of the project is not dependent on Congress passing legislation that provides incentives for chipmakers to bring production back to the U.S."

27 minutes ago, wpcc88 said:

This is going to be great for central Ohio, just wish I had bought my licking county farm sooner 🤣🤣🤣

That land right off 161 just south of Alexandria that is (was?) for sale for ages is looking like it would have been a great purchase now! It'll probably be a housing development in the next 10 years now.

27 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Or just Silicohio.

This sounds like a genetic disorder haha.

^ How about just Ohio? You don't have to make up a fancy name for the association between Michigan and auto industry or Wisconsin and cheese or Los Angeles and movies. Don't forget that Hollywood is just the name of a place, not branding. Wouldn't it be nice if Ohio is associated with semiconductor manufacturing--no cutsie name needed?

9 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

^ How about just Ohio? You don't have to make up a fancy name for the association between Michigan and auto industry or Wisconsin and cheese or Los Angeles and movies. Don't forget that Hollywood is just the name of a place, not branding. Wouldn't it be nice if Ohio is associated with semiconductor manufacturing--no cutsie name needed?

I don't think "Heartland" was specific to Ohio at all, more so bringing manufacturing back to the midwest. This one just happens to be in Ohio.

I've got a feeling all the way down in Cincinnati that this project will ripple $$ through the state. 

 

My major concerns are related to associated development. Will central Ohio demand Transit Oriented Development? Public Transportation? How does this impact the 3C+D Rail?

 

 

If I’m doing my math right… this is like… 73+ years of ohio-paced economic growth happening "all at once"?

 

"The facilities are expected to add $2.8 billion to Ohio’s annual gross state product, the release said."

 

This is a great boost to Ohio's GDP as a whole!!!

 

Also, we always talk about the ripple affect which helps all of Ohio separate from the initial city the base factory/investment is.  I can attest to this even from the small western Ohio town (75 miles west of Marysville) I'm from when Honda came to Marysville.  An entirely new company/factory in my town called C.A.P.T. is a supplier to Honda, which in turn employees hundreds of people.  The spinoff from this will be huge for the state, more so the immediate region of Columbus for obvious reasons.

Edited January 21, 20223 yr by Gnoraa

Intel Announces Next US Site with Landmark Investment in Ohio

 

Here is some info from the linked article. 
 

As part of today’s announcement, Air Products, Applied Materials, LAM Research and Ultra Clean Technology have indicated plans to establish a physical presence in the region to support the buildout of the site, with more companies expected in the future. 

7 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

The spinoff from this will be huge

Intel is already announcing partners that will establish a physical presence, with more expected to come:

 

In addition to Intel’s presence in Ohio, the investment is expected to attract dozens of ecosystem partners and suppliers needed to provide local support for Intel’s operations – from semiconductor equipment and materials suppliers to a range of service providers. Investments made by these suppliers will not only benefit Ohio but will have a significant economic impact on the broader U.S. semiconductor ecosystem. As part of today’s announcement, Air Products, Applied Materials, LAM Research and Ultra Clean Technology have indicated plans to establish a physical presence in the region to support the buildout of the site, with more companies expected in the future.

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/news/intel-announces-next-us-site-landmark-investment-ohio.html

7 minutes ago, VintageLife said:

Intel Announces Next US Site with Landmark Investment in Ohio

 

Here is some info from the linked article. 
 

As part of today’s announcement, Air Products, Applied Materials, LAM Research and Ultra Clean Technology have indicated plans to establish a physical presence in the region to support the buildout of the site, with more companies expected in the future. 

Oops.  You beat me to it

22 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

"The facilities are expected to add $2.8 billion to Ohio’s annual gross state product, the release said."

 

This is a great boost to Ohio's GDP as a whole!!!

 

Also, we always talk about the ripple affect which helps all of Ohio separate from the initial city the base factory/investment is.  I can attest to this even from the small western Ohio town (75 miles west of Marysville) I'm from when Honda came to Marysville.  An entirely new company/factory in my town called C.A.P.T. is a supplier to Honda, which in turn employees hundreds of people.  The spinoff from this will be huge for the state, more so the immediate region of Columbus for obvious reasons.

Yup. Everyone forgets that OEMs are all propped up by a vast army of tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers and this is where the real ripple effect happens. You'll see it in the negative direction when places like GM Moraine shut down and all of the tool shops and parts suppliers also evaporate, but also in the positive direction not only in Marysville but even in tiny towns like Anna and St Marys thanks to the engine plant and all of the related work that goes into feeding that beast. It's the little guys who really end up creating the economic momentum, and it'll likely be felt on a state- and regionwide level.

RE Honda's impact in the region, I have a friend who used to work at Nifco, a company who manufactured plastic parts for the interior of cars. The only reason the factory and related jobs existed here was because of the presence of Honda. That's one type of spinoff impact we should expect from this development. 

 

 

1 hour ago, VintageLife said:

This is a bit from an article from The Verge. https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/21/22894612/intel-ohio-chip-plant-20-billion-processor-shortage
 

Intel’s search for its new manufacturing hub reportedly saw states competing for the huge economic opportunity a new plant represents. Time reports that at least one other state offered more subsidies, but Ohio was a better regulatory fit and Intel didn’t want to displace current residents.

 

 

Ohio's business-friendly policies, taxes, marketing, and lobbying are often lambasted on UrbanOhio because they are right out of the Republican playbook, but they seem to have been a very big factor for Intel. It shows that a political focus on attracting jobs first is the right approach for a place like Ohio, given that we don't have the climate, amenities, nor reputation to attract people first, and hope that jobs follow. And of course, the benefit of pursuing tech manufacturing jobs is that, unlike most other well paying tech jobs, they can't be done remotely.

5 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

but they seem to have been a very big factor for Intel.

Yep.  Intel openly mentioned the regulatory environment was the deciding factor, even over another location that offered more incentives.

2 hours ago, OhioFinest said:

I actually think "Silicon Heartland" has a fantastic ring to it!!  This development, when built completely built out, will benefit the entire region of the country..."The Heartland"!!!  This is bigger than just Columbus. 

I like a play off of the "rust belt" theme by calling Columbus the "silicon belt."

21 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

 It's the little guys who really end up creating the economic momentum, and it'll likely be felt on a state- and regionwide level.

 

Not exactly a small community, but it very easy to see Newark/Heath landing a few of these kinds of suppliers. The space and workforce are certainly available with some great advantages for logistics. Maybe we can even find some related industry to locate here and take over the Basket.

55 minutes ago, Gnoraa said:

"The facilities are expected to add $2.8 billion to Ohio’s annual gross state product, the release said."

 

This is a great boost to Ohio's GDP as a whole!!!

 

Also, we always talk about the ripple affect which helps all of Ohio separate from the initial city the base factory/investment is.  I can attest to this even from the small western Ohio town (75 miles west of Marysville) I'm from when Honda came to Marysville.  An entirely new company/factory in my town called C.A.P.T. is a supplier to Honda, which in turn employees hundreds of people.  The spinoff from this will be huge for the state, more so the immediate region of Columbus for obvious reasons.

Honda must be why Showa (now Hitachi-Astemo) and Ohashi are in Sunbury.

Not much information is being provided about why Ohio is "a better regulatory fit" than other states. Before celebrating Ohio's lack of regulations, I'd like to know exactly what we're letting Intel do that other states wouldn't let them do.

16 minutes ago, Ram23 said:

Ohio's business-friendly policies, taxes, marketing, and lobbying are often lambasted on UrbanOhio because they are right out of the Republican playbook, but they seem to have been a very big factor for Intel.

 

I normally have mixed feelings on the sort of incentives Ohio (and so many other places) offer, mainly because of the race to the bottom these lead to. Plus the tendency of companies to follow the next offer once the initial incentives/obligations expire, or take the opportunity to look for a new handout (or long established companies to so the same). 

 

This feels different, and for once the incentives feel justified. This will be transformative for the region, in an industry with an actual future, and the investment so huge Intel isn't going to move it elsewhere once the incentives expire.

12 minutes ago, taestell said:

Not much information is being provided about why Ohio is "a better regulatory fit" than other states. Before celebrating Ohio's lack of regulations, I'd like to know exactly what we're letting Intel do that other states wouldn't let them do.

Yeah, I’m also a little concerned with that part. I doubt we will ever find that little bit out though. 

1 hour ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Yup. Everyone forgets that OEMs are all propped up by a vast army of tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers and this is where the real ripple effect happens. You'll see it in the negative direction when places like GM Moraine shut down and all of the tool shops and parts suppliers also evaporate, but also in the positive direction not only in Marysville but even in tiny towns like Anna and St Marys thanks to the engine plant and all of the related work that goes into feeding that beast. It's the little guys who really end up creating the economic momentum, and it'll likely be felt on a state- and regionwide level.

 

I'm having trouble finding the article, but last year Jalopnik reported that a Volkswagen study found that it took over one million companies to produce one of its cars. That's from suppliers of suppliers of suppliers all the way down to the dyes in the inks of the printing on the wraps of the capacitors. Obviously VW would like to see that number be smaller, but where and how to start?

58 minutes ago, taestell said:

Not much information is being provided about why Ohio is "a better regulatory fit" than other states. Before celebrating Ohio's lack of regulations, I'd like to know exactly what we're letting Intel do that other states wouldn't let them do.

 

Exactly, we won't know those details until they are announced and the media does some digging to find out information that is not in press releases.

Based on rendering aerials it appears this initial fab will be bounded by Green Chapel Rd to the north, Mink St to the east, Clover Valley Rd to the west, and Miller Rd to the south.

 

 

It's actually closer to Johnstown than New Albany. Here I have labeled with dots the Amazon data center (yellow), the FaceBook data center (green), the Google data center (blue), and the Amgen factory (purple).

 

When people say this is good for the region. Which region? The Columbus region. Unless Ohio government requires investment in Cleveland Dayton,  Cincinnati, etc... as part of the deal -  it is definitely not good for any other city or region but Columbus.

1 hour ago, mrCharlie said:

 

Not exactly a small community, but it very easy to see Newark/Heath landing a few of these kinds of suppliers. The space and workforce are certainly available with some great advantages for logistics. Maybe we can even find some related industry to locate here and take over the Basket.

For sure!!! The Central Ohio Aerospace and Technology Center and Boeing campuses also use some of the largest Clean Room space in the world.  Boeing is booming out there with new work coming in daily it seems like.  Somebody i know that works there told me they just announced plans to their employees that they are hiring an additional 350 people this year.  They use some of the same suppliers like Air Products and Applied.  Having an abundance of Clean Room space and bunny suit type of jobs is a great thing and seems like an interesting connection....just 15 miles apart!!  There is plenty of land that surrounds the COATC and maybe the Licking County Port Authority will land some of these suppliers?  All of this news has my head spinning!!! 

Edited January 21, 20223 yr by OhioFinest

3 minutes ago, OhioFinest said:

For sure!!! The Central Ohio Aerospace and Technology Center and Boeing campus use some of the largest Clean Room space in the world.  Boeing is booming out there with new work coming in daily it seems like.  Somebody i know that works there told me they just announced plans to their employees that they are hiring an additional 350 people this year.  They use some of the same suppliers like Air Products and Applied.  Having an abundance of Clean Room space and bunny suit type of jobs is a great thing and seems like an interesting connection....just 15 miles apart!!  All of this news has my head spinning!!! 

Owens Corning R&D in Granville and production in Newark checking in, too.

This is great news and very exciting for the region.
On the theme of ‘the region’ FWIW - someone from Team NEO on LinkedIn stated the other day that NEO was in the mix, but basically, there wasn’t the land available (as discussed elsewhere on UO). He didn’t, I’m sure couldn’t, comment further. He did state that this will have a positive impact for NEO due to the supply of materials needed for semi-conductor manufacturing. I don’t know the industry, so I don’t know quite what that would be. 

Here's a video here with the President, Intel CEO Gelsinger and Sens. Brown & Portman.

 

 

3 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

Ohio's business-friendly policies, taxes, marketing, and lobbying are often lambasted on UrbanOhio because they are right out of the Republican playbook, but they seem to have been a very big factor for Intel. It shows that a political focus on attracting jobs first is the right approach for a place like Ohio, given that we don't have the climate, amenities, nor reputation to attract people first, and hope that jobs follow. And of course, the benefit of pursuing tech manufacturing jobs is that, unlike most other well paying tech jobs, they can't be done remotely.

 

Okay, but I think it's simplistic to just say that GOP policies did this when dozens of other sites across Republican states didn't win the project.  Ultimately, I think on-the-ground conditions, such as OSU and access to education, the relative stability of Ohio's resources and climate, and the very large plot of available land nearby is what ultimately landed this.  A Democrat in office would've just as heavily went after this, so I don't think this was about politics.

Edited January 21, 20223 yr by jonoh81

3 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Okay, but I think it's simplistic to just say that GOP policies did this when dozens of other sites across Republican states didn't win the project.  Ultimately, I think on-the-ground conditions, such as OSU and access to education, the relative stability of Ohio's resources and climate, and the very large plot of available land nearby is what ultimately landed this.  A Democrat in office would've just as heavily went after this, so I don't think this was about politics.

I vote we preemptively axe the impending political arguments before this thread gets locked again. It’s going to be about as productive as every other political internet argument, which is not at all. 

3 hours ago, taestell said:

Not much information is being provided about why Ohio is "a better regulatory fit" than other states. Before celebrating Ohio's lack of regulations, I'd like to know exactly what we're letting Intel do that other states wouldn't let them do.

 

 

yes, it may be a worry. is the manufacture process polluting or something? i have no idea. the time article noted: Intel’s chips will still be sent to Asia for assembly, packaging, and testing.

I wonder what type of impact this might have on air travel to and from Columbus. Could this help us win some new connections? Could we possibly even become a “focus city”? This project just so happens to coincide with the new terminal project kicking off, so it makes you wonder what kind of possibilities are out there….

4 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

I wonder what type of impact this might have on air travel to and from Columbus. Could this help us win some new connections? Could we possibly even become a “focus city”? This project just so happens to coincide with the new terminal project kicking off, so it makes you wonder what kind of possibilities are out there….

 

Columbus should definitely push up the timeline for building the new terminal.  Waiting another 10+ years doesn't make sense anymore.