2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

Lindner is doing the same thing with drive-to urbanism in the West End.  Pulling activity away from the huge public investments in The Banks, while ignoring the presence of the unused subway. 

Why are you always so conspiratorial with FCC and the Linders? We get it, you don’t like soccer or the Lindners. The subway has sat vacant for nearly 100 years and hosts a water main that the water works has to relocate if they’re ever used. TQL is in a walkable area of the city and to the club’s credit, they haven’t gone out of the way to change that. Those of us who have to drive into the city and have parking passes for FCC are scattered around downtown. 
 

The FCC organization is building a mixed use development in an area that could certainly use it. Hell, I try to get downtown 2 hours early to grab a bite to eat in OTR before games and the past two weekends, literally every bar or restaurant had a 2 hour wait.
 

It’s not FCC’s fault that the Bengals make building anything on their side of the Banks so difficult. 

Went for a jog this evening that wrapped around TQL Stadium, down towards the Convention Center, across Smale Park, and back up into the CBD. 

Objectively speaking, doesn’t it seem like a site closer to the convention center would make more sense? Especially with the arena being very unlikely to ever host a major tenant via the NBA or NHL, having it connected or close to the convention center at least would make it more of an “asset.” Not to mention, closer to The Banks.

 

Speaking of which, I run through The Banks almost every time I jog. Yet, despite living Downtown for three years now, have never spent any time at the bars/restaurants there aside from occasionally Yard House. Sure, a lot of those places aren’t my kind of place, but The Banks just seems… “sad?” There’s really not much there and on non Reds/Bengals game days it’s super quiet aside from folks using the parks. The “DORA” area with its AstroTurf isn’t even on par with Ft. Wayne, Indiana’s pedestrianized street. 

I just feel like The Banks needs true life and development before there’s any talk of something similar in The West End. 

But that all just leads back to a discussion over what this city wants its urban core to be. A city, or, a series of “entertainment districts?”

 

As an aside: drove by the casino on my way out of town last night. Also seems like a better area for an arena than The West End. Same with all those massive surface lots on the east side of downtown.

22 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

Speaking of which, I run through The Banks almost every time I jog. Yet, despite living Downtown for three years now, have never spent any time at the bars/restaurants there aside from occasionally Yard House. Sure, a lot of those places aren’t my kind of place, but The Banks just seems… “sad?” There’s really not much there and on non Reds/Bengals game days it’s super quiet aside from folks using the parks. The “DORA” area with its AstroTurf isn’t even on par with Ft. Wayne, Indiana’s pedestrianized street. 

I just feel like The Banks needs true life and development before there’s any talk of something similar in The West End. 

 

Hmmm… seems “sad” and “there’s not really much there”?? Besides it being almost totally leased with 20+ bars and restaurants and a gym,  AC Marriott Hotel, A brand new concert venue whos calendar is very busy, General Electric offices, a Museum ( that was ranked last week as one of the country’s best), a very nice riverfront park, and finally 2 sports stadiums, Oh and don’t forget about the 600 very occupied apartments. The things I read on here sometimes boggle my mind…. Yes there is plenty to still do down there but alot has been done as well.

 

I go down there plenty and it’s very busy and has great crowds especially in the evenings and weekends naturally.

 

Also it’s 30 degrees in Cincinnati I don’t think the vibe is going to be that stellar during this time a year unless there is a game or concert. Spring and Summer is a mad house.

Edited March 14, 20232 yr by 646empire

1 hour ago, Gordon Bombay said:

Ft. Wayne, Indiana’s pedestrianized street. 

 

It has a name, btch.  SAY THEIR NAME!

 

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

 

Hmmm… seems “sad” and “there’s not really much there”?? Besides it being almost totally leased with 20+ bars and restaurants and a gym,  AC Marriott Hotel, A brand new concert venue whos calendar is very busy, General Electric offices, a Museum ( that was ranked last week as one of the country’s best), a very nice riverfront park, and finally 2 sports stadiums, Oh and don’t forget about the 600 very occupied apartments. The things I read on here sometimes boggle my mind…. Yes there is plenty to still do down there but alot has been done as well.

 

I go down there plenty and it’s very busy and has great crowds especially in the evenings and weekends naturally.

 

Also it’s 30 degrees in Cincinnati I don’t think the vibe is going to be that stellar during this time a year unless there is a game or concert. Spring and Summer is a mad house.

 

Correct, today is 30 degrees, but I’ve been running through that area for the last three years and I spend a fair amount of time down there at the parks, etc. (granted, this is just anecdotal perception). And, truthfully, I hear you. The NURFC is wonderful, I love the sports stadiums, etc. Yes, on the weekends it’s busy, but even 7 PM on a non-game day summer evening seems pretty “dead” after the work crowd goes home.

I guess my point was more-so, and I apologize if I didn’t articulate it clearly, that I feel like The Banks still needs more filling out, life, and vibrancy before the city embarks on another similar development ala The West End. If that makes sense? To me it just feels like The Banks has so much more potential that can be worked into that space—potential as in the things that can make it a neighborhood/community and not solely just a drinking area. 

 

Edit: Sorry, @ColDayMan.  Columbia Street > That one slice of Astroturf Party Zone at The Banks.

Edited March 14, 20232 yr by Gordon Bombay

Holy Grail is busy every night if the week. The new place Filson seems to be also. Stretch and Jefferson Social do great happy hour business. Condado stays busy during dinner time. Tin Roof is mostly late night crowds and pretty dead during the week unless there's an event, but between the stadiums, arena, and concert venue there are a lot of events. They need to finish the Banks with some big housing developments but it's pretty good considering what was here just a decade or so ago. That census tract is the fastest growing in the city on a percentage basis. 

5 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Why are you always so conspiratorial with FCC and the Linders? We get it, you don’t like soccer or the Lindners. The subway has sat vacant for nearly 100 years and hosts a water main that the water works has to relocate if they’re ever used. TQL is in a walkable area of the city and to the club’s credit, they haven’t gone out of the way to change that. Those of us who have to drive into the city and have parking passes for FCC are scattered around downtown. 
 

The FCC organization is building a mixed use development in an area that could certainly use it. Hell, I try to get downtown 2 hours early to grab a bite to eat in OTR before games and the past two weekends, literally every bar or restaurant had a 2 hour wait.
 

It’s not FCC’s fault that the Bengals make building anything on their side of the Banks so difficult. 

 

He's conspiratorial about everything. 

As an aside: drove by the casino on my way out of town last night. Also seems like a better area for an arena than The West End. Same with all those massive surface lots on the east side of downtown.

Agreed, which I think is why if they really want to get this done they have to stop throwing out NBA or NHL as a possibility. There’s a huge difference in that style of arena vs. one they would build solely to replace Heritage Bank that would host boxing and esports matches, or act as a convention center add-on.


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Let Northern Kentucky build the arena.

8 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

Holy Grail is busy every night if the week. The new place Filson seems to be also. Stretch and Jefferson Social do great happy hour business. Condado stays busy during dinner time. Tin Roof is mostly late night crowds and pretty dead during the week unless there's an event, but between the stadiums, arena, and concert venue there are a lot of events. They need to finish the Banks with some big housing developments but it's pretty good considering what was here just a decade or so ago. That census tract is the fastest growing in the city on a percentage basis. 

I think their main point is that The Banks should be an 18-hour neighborhood but it doesn't feel like one. It should be rather full of human activity almost all day, every day but it's really just nights and weekends.

50 minutes ago, ink said:

Let Northern Kentucky build the arena.

Northern Kentucky can’t finance a tenantless  half billion dollar arena. NKU has a modern basketball arena and Newport just built a concert venue. And this ain’t New York-New Jersey and MetLife Stadium, Cincinnati-Ohio isn’t putting a penny into something that’s not on its side of the river unless it’s transit related (streetcar or light rail). 

7 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Northern Kentucky can’t finance a tenantless  half billion dollar arena. NKU has a modern basketball arena and Newport just built a concert venue. And this ain’t New York-New Jersey and MetLife Stadium, Cincinnati-Ohio isn’t putting a penny into something that’s not on its side of the river unless it’s transit related (streetcar or light rail). 

Not to disagree with you because overall, I agree with your point, but why not? NKY has some options. They have a convention center that they have wanted to expand for years. that same convention center borders one of the largest redevelopment plots in Covington. Why can't they help facilitate in an arena project? There are bonds that can be issued for convention center expansion (with an arena project to assist in that. Couple that with maybe some type of public/private investment dollars and neighborhood redevelopment around an arena district in Covington, and why cant they? Yes, it is a heavy lift, but if people align why cant it be done. 

14 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Why are you always so conspiratorial with FCC and the Linders?

 

Everyone seems to have short memories: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-chiquita-phone-hacking-scandal

 

The Lindner business empire has been built on one sleazy activity after another.  I've got a personal story that is truly epic that I cannot share online.  

 

5 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Not to disagree with you because overall, I agree with your point, but why not? NKY has some options. They have a convention center that they have wanted to expand for years. that same convention center borders one of the largest redevelopment plots in Covington. Why can't they help facilitate in an arena project? There are bonds that can be issued for convention center expansion (with an arena project to assist in that. Couple that with maybe some type of public/private investment dollars and neighborhood redevelopment around an arena district in Covington, and why cant they? Yes, it is a heavy lift, but if people align why cant it be done. 

 

Remember when Berding played that old "we're going to move the soccer team to Kentucky" card?  A reprise of the Reds/Bengals thing from the late 90s (he was head of the PBS stadium campaign in his late 20s)?  

 

There is enough space at the IRS site to build a big-time convention center and a big-time arena, but instead we're going to get some boring townhouses.  

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

There is enough space at the IRS site to build a big-time convention center and a big-time arena, but instead we're going to get some boring townhouses.  

 

Call me selfish, but I'd rather have a walkable neighborhood with mixed uses and green space than a $500 million albatross with no major league tenants. 

1 minute ago, ucgrady said:

 

Call me selfish, but I'd rather have a walkable neighborhood with mixed uses and green space than a $500 million albatross with no major league tenants. 

You could do both. An arena the connects to the convention center and serves as an expansion to that center and then a walkable neighborhood around it that serves as a hub of business and entertainment similar to Columbus arena district but on a bit smaller scale.

2 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

 

Call me selfish, but I'd rather have a walkable neighborhood with mixed uses and green space than a $500 million albatross with no major league tenants. 

Your albatross will cost way more than $500 million.

After 30+ years of evidence in peer cities, I'm skeptical of an arena's ability to anchor a neighborhood that isn't primarily just a drive-to entertainment district. We already have one of those and it's called the Banks and I can walk there across the Roebling if I want to. 

 

The smart thing FCC did was build their new stadium adjacent to an existing and vibrant neighborhood, not try to build one from scratch. If they want to spend their own money to build an arena across Ezzard Charles, then more power to them. I just don't want any public money going to billionaires (as a rule)  especially considering that the Bengals will also be lining up with their hands out in the next few years. 

22 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Remember when Berding played that old "we're going to move the soccer team to Kentucky" card?  A reprise of the Reds/Bengals thing from the late 90s (he was head of the PBS stadium campaign in his late 20s)?  

 

There is enough space at the IRS site to build a big-time convention center and a big-time arena, but instead we're going to get some boring townhouses.  

 

 

 

 

Covington...doesn't...want...an...arena...on...the...IRS...site. The FCC plan was always the West End and they did the usual political stuff to get it. Newport was the Kentucky alternative and it would have sucked. TQL stadium is in the best possible location and while I think it would be a tight fit, you could probably get an arena on the CET site and both could anchor a mixed-use development. Both would be good for the city.

 

29 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Everyone seems to have short memories: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-chiquita-phone-hacking-scandal

 

The Lindner business empire has been built on one sleazy activity after another.  I've got a personal story that is truly epic that I cannot share online.  

 

 

I'd like to introduce you to billionaires. All of them are sleazeballs. But that doesn't cover your constant crowing about the soccer stadium somehow being a conspiracy to make sure that the subway tunnels (that have been abandoned since the 1920s) are never used for transit. Heck, if an arena is built, it might spur a streetcar extension, which would be a great thing.

4 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

The smart thing FCC did was build their new stadium adjacent to an existing and vibrant neighborhood, not try to build one from scratch. If they want to spend their own money to build an arena across Ezzard Charles, then more power to them. I just don't want any public money going to billionaires (as a rule)  especially considering that the Bengals will also be lining up with their hands out in the next few years. 

But that can be the case for Covington too. an Arena on that site would fairly seemlessly connect with Main Strause

54 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Remember when Berding played that old "we're going to move the soccer team to Kentucky" card?  A reprise of the Reds/Bengals thing from the late 90s (he was head of the PBS stadium campaign in his late 20s)?  

 

This is not accurate. Newport was a proposed location, the first before Oakley and the West End. And while that may have been posturing, it wasn’t framed as a threat to “move” the team ala the Browns heading to Baltimore in the 90s.

2 hours ago, ucgrady said:

 

Call me selfish, but I'd rather have a walkable neighborhood with mixed uses and green space than a $500 million albatross with no major league tenants. 

 

That is one reason to put the arena in NKY. Leave the residential demand for the Cincinnati side.

The banks needs to be finished but it's been crazy slow to develop because it's owned by the city and county.  Government being in charge means super slow developing.  If FCC wants to purchase land and build an arena that they pay for themselves good for them.  They might get a soccer stadium and arena built before the banks is even finished. 

 

I don't see why we should not want developments to happen in other parts of downtown because our government continues to fumble the banks.  

5 hours ago, Dev said:

I think their main point is that The Banks should be an 18-hour neighborhood but it doesn't feel like one. It should be rather full of human activity almost all day, every day but it's really just nights and weekends.

 

Agreed. And that's why they need to finish it with lots of housing, to add those round the clock residents. I think the demand is there, the city and county just have to figure out how to get out of the way.

4 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

You could do both. An arena the connects to the convention center and serves as an expansion to that center and then a walkable neighborhood around it that serves as a hub of business and entertainment similar to Columbus arena district but on a bit smaller scale.

 

A basketball court is roughly 5,000 sq feet.   That's microscopic by convention standards, meaning a connecting arena is really only useful for speeches by famous people, concerts, etc.  Even the playing surface in a domed stadium is almost insignificant - roughly 50,000 sq feet.  Be wary of these people trying to package a new arena/dome as part of a convention center expansion.  It's the sort of thing that sounds good to people who don't do math and aren't familiar with the convention business.  

 

In the attached photos we see an arena in "convention" mode and a dome (the doomed former TWA Dome in St. Louis) hosting a volleyball tournament.  

 

 

 

4 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

But that doesn't cover your constant crowing about the soccer stadium somehow being a conspiracy to make sure that the subway tunnels (that have been abandoned since the 1920s) are never used for transit.

 

TQL doubled down on the water main.  Every time you flush a toilet in TQL stadium, that water flowed through the 1950s-era subway water main.  

 

Keep in mind that Lindners have control over expansion of Union Terminal because they built the Omnimax Theater in place of the old concourse.  This means new platforms can't be built at Union Terminal without the Lindners agreeing to their theater being removed.  Similarly, no trains in the subway without the city laying out the cash to supply TQL's toilets with a new water source.  

 

4 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Heck, if an arena is built, it might spur a streetcar extension, which would be a great thing.

 

Not an extension - a spur - which is problematic for a variety of reasons.  

 

For what it's worth, an arena the size of the Heritage Bank Center would fit in any of the blocks from Ezzard Charles to Court Street between Central Avenue and Central Pkwy/Plum Street.

 

Heritage Bank Center is approximately 320' x 420'

54 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Agreed. And that's why they need to finish it with lots of housing, to add those round the clock residents. I think the demand is there, the city and county just have to figure out how to get out of the way.

 

We're getting off topic for this thread, but doesn't 3CDC have development rights of some of the remaining undeveloped parcels at the Banks?

Quote

Keep in mind that Lindners have control over expansion of Union Terminal because they built the Omnimax Theater in place of the old concourse.  This means new platforms can't be built at Union Terminal without the Lindners agreeing to their theater being removed.  Similarly, no trains in the subway without the city laying out the cash to supply TQL's toilets with a new water source.  

 

Lazarus, have you seen documentation supporting this?  Just curious if the donation agreement for the theatre funds gave them development control in perpetuity. 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

Keep in mind that Lindners have control over expansion of Union Terminal because they built the Omnimax Theater in place of the old concourse. 

Uh... I mean... 

 

In the interest of getting back to the topic at hand. Guests arriving to Cincinnati via train could use that simple crossing type on their way to attractions such as the Lindner Omnimax theatre, or,  a new arena.

Edited March 14, 20232 yr by Gordon Bombay

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

TQL doubled down on the water main.  Every time you flush a toilet in TQL stadium, that water flowed through the 1950s-era subway water main.  

 

As much as I'd like to use the tunnels for transit, that's never going to happen and the water main predated the stadium and would need to be replaced or improved for any big development in the area. This isn't Carl Lindner sitting in his corner office at the Great American tower thinking "ha ha ha! I can keep the subway from happening now!". If anything, having the tunnels for the mains is a good thing and since the streetcar is built to light rail standards, you can run any future light rail on surface streets like they do in dozens of cities.

 

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Keep in mind that Lindners have control over expansion of Union Terminal because they built the Omnimax Theater in place of the old concourse.  This means new platforms can't be built at Union Terminal without the Lindners agreeing to their theater being removed.  Similarly, no trains in the subway without the city laying out the cash to supply TQL's toilets with a new water source.

 

I guess this was Carl II in his office laughing about this. It's odd that Amtrak passengers find their way to the train platform though. The Ominimax is a huge obstacle apparently. BTW the concourse was demolished in the 70s long before the museum moving to CUT was ever a plan. 

 

2 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Not an extension - a spur - which is problematic for a variety of reasons

 

We've gone over this in the Streetcar thread but I'll bite. You don't need to make it a spur. Run down Ezzard Charles, to CUT then up Dalton and Spring Grove into Northside. Or if it's a spur, that's not a bad thing either since the line needs to end somewhere and an East-West line from CUT past the casino and up Gilbert would be great as well. You don't have to take a dump on everything. 

 

2 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

For what it's worth, an arena the size of the Heritage Bank Center would fit in any of the blocks from Ezzard Charles to Court Street between Central Avenue and Central Pkwy/Plum Street.

 

Heritage Bank Center is approximately 320' x 420'

 

It would be a tight squeeze for sure and a new arena would probably need a bigger footprint since you would need wider concourses and more space for luxury suites. 

We've discussed it before in this thread that an arena site might be in the block just north of TQL stadium. I tried to scale this as much as possible but Kansas City's T-Mobile Center can fit on that block with some room to spare, if I'm right. You could also preserve a historic building or two and keep Olly's Trolley. This would also be a great spot on a streetcar extension to the Mohawk neighborhood and Northside.

Edited March 14, 20232 yr by JaceTheAce41

 
That is one reason to put the arena in NKY. Leave the residential demand for the Cincinnati side.

Agreed. If they build it without a tenant it’ll be a boondoggle, might as well let Kentucky eat it


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Why would having an arena that's not a complete dump be a boondoggle?  There are arenas all over the country in cities that don't have an NHL or NBA team.  What we currently have is a complete embarrassment for a city our size. 

13 hours ago, SWOH said:

Agreed. If they build it without a tenant it’ll be a boondoggle, might as well let Kentucky eat it


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If the economics work, then it is not a boondoggle no matter how many or few tenants you have. 

 

I don't think the Duke Energy Convention Center has a tenant yet we are talking about expanding/renovating that building. The logic is the same. 

To your point, without a major tenant, you likely will need to cut some corners on amenities compared to other arenas like say Detroit or San Francisco. You will not get as frequent of upgrades with the latest and greatest because you do not have the high end rent to justify it. However, much of that is a waste anyway. Do you really need all of that or is a much better arena built to modern standards worth some of the sacrifices to do it.  You can build it and get the numbers to pencil out, you just need to do it on a lower scale than say San Francisco or Dallas does. 

New arena needs to be either west of convention center district or in hard rock. Apartments are planned with CET staying at the Town Center Garage site rn and its the plan the West End favors over the arena. 400 apartments as I have heard will completely transform that area of the West End. 

 

Plopping an arena there instead would be laughable. 

 

I dont support stadium tax going to a new arena, most I would support would be an infastructure support situation, thats it. 

^Because somebody is going to have to pay for it and maintain it. Arenas are both expensive to build and keep up, there's a reason why Heritage Bank arena is still being used... it seems like it can make enough to pay for its maintenance. 

 

Doing this as a tenantless arena as part of a convention center remodel would make good sense. As a standalone arena without a tenant and no mention of esports, boxing, wrestling, or other uses that would actually be viable for Cincy? Forget about calling the Bengals stadium deal the worst in the nation at that point, because this deal would take the cake. It's like the arena equivalent of building a new Forest Fair mall on the site of the current Forest Fair Mall.

4 minutes ago, stashua123 said:

I don't support stadium tax going to a new arena, most I would support would be an infastructure support situation, thats it.

The stadium tax is going to have to pay for improvements to GABP and Paycor. There will not be any leftover for new arena construction. 

 

The new arena will need to be privately held (Lindner group or Hard Rock) or part of a convention center expansion project to finance it through hotel/convention taxes. 

8 minutes ago, SWOH said:

^Because somebody is going to have to pay for it and maintain it. Arenas are both expensive to build and keep up, there's a reason why Heritage Bank arena is still being used... it seems like it can make enough to pay for its maintenance.

Heritage was always privately built and funded. There is nothing to say a new arena cant be done the same way. All repairs and updates to Heritage were done with private money. Now, some of that may not have been wise but regardless, it was done. Back in the late 90s a new owner completely renovated the building to what it is today with all new seats, etc. It went bankrupt a few years later which did not look good, but the arena survived.  If you build it, it will take care of itself. Will it be the nicest best in class arena? no, but it will be a major improvement from what we have. 

2 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Heritage was always privately built and funded. There is nothing to say a new arena cant be done the same way. All repairs and updates to Heritage were done with private money. Now, some of that may not have been wise but regardless, it was done. Back in the late 90s a new owner completely renovated the building to what it is today with all new seats, etc. It went bankrupt a few years later which did not look good, but the arena survived.  If you build it, it will take care of itself. Will it be the nicest best in class arena? no, but it will be a major improvement from what we have. 

 

There's another example too... Hara Arena in Dayton. It was privately owned for years. The owners held on for way too long and it all went to crap for a variety of reasons (neighborhood and upkeep were the two biggest). They eventually shut it down in 2016. Very shortly after, a large part of the arena roof caved in. They got lucky and the arena was struck by the tornado in 2019, which probably enabled them to take advantage of either their insurance or tax credits / government assistance to get it demolished. Either way the last ~10 years of Hara's operation were a painful to watch failure for all involved. I'm sure there are plenty of privately owned successful arenas too, probably by families far more affluent than the ones who owned Hara, but negligence is a real possibility that can quickly turn an privately owned arena from an asset to a leeching albatross in no time flat. Just look at Heritage Bank for one of many examples across the US of this being the case.

https://www.cincinnati.com/restricted/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cincinnati.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2Flocal%2F2023%2F03%2F15%2Ffc-cincinnati-could-still-buy-police-headquarters%2F70009095007%2F
 

Don’t think this has to do with the arena (Not subscribed so I can’t read it) but I assume they would want this piece if they do put a new arena at the CET site. 

20 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Why would having an arena that's not a complete dump be a boondoggle?  There are arenas all over the country in cities that don't have an NHL or NBA team.  What we currently have is a complete embarrassment for a city our size. 

 

Having a modern, indoor arena is certainly an amenity that can benefit a city and if a deal is brokered that benefits all parties (taxpayers, city, neighborhood, etc.) then it certainly wouldn't be a boondoggle. I certainly understand the skepticism of folks here in Cincy, however. Stadium deals haven't been great in our recent history.

 

Also, while Heritage Bank Center is far from modern or perfect, I wouldn't say it's an embarrassment. Its seating capacity is large, it still hosts the major touring events that come through (wrestling, etc.).

 

Is RC Cola gross? Do the bathrooms always have a thin layer of liquid on the floor that you can't tell is pee or water? Are the concourses small and cramped? The answers to these questions are all a resounding YES, but that hasn't stopped the building from packing folks in for monster trucks and hosting minor league hockey in a central location of the city.

 

There's all this talk of "missed events," but...

• The RNC/DNC would realistically only come here once each (if that).
• The NCAA March Madness tournaments hosts its finals at indoor football stadiums now.
• Everyone says we miss concerts, yet, no one can seem to point out what concerts we're missing or an artist who specifically said "Oh, I'd come to Cincy, but I'm not playing at their arena because of X, Y, and Z." To be fair, I'm not doubting this point, I'm just always wondering who are these artists we're missing and is it really the building, or, other logistics or touring?

Great venue? Not at all. But an embarrassment? I wouldn't go that far. And trust me, no one hates that venue more than me. Anyone who wants to hear a rant, come join me for a Cyclones dollar beer night. 

 

10 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

If the economics work, then it is not a boondoggle no matter how many or few tenants you have. 

 

I don't think the Duke Energy Convention Center has a tenant yet we are talking about expanding/renovating that building. The logic is the same. 

 

No, that logic is not the "same", because...

• One's an arena, one's a convention center.

They're not comparable, because the Duke Energy Convention Center doesn't and wouldn't have a "tenant" in the same vein. It exists to host traveling events of a variety that an indoor arena could complement, but would never compete for. It has an argument for public support due to the economic impact it can contribute. 

 

Conversely, a modern arena that lacks a major tenant, has different merits to try and espouse and needs to be sold to the public in a different way (especially if they're going to support it financially). 

 

To your point, without a major tenant, you likely will need to cut some corners on amenities compared to other arenas like say Detroit or San Francisco. You will not get as frequent of upgrades with the latest and greatest because you do not have the high end rent to justify it. However, much of that is a waste anyway. Do you really need all of that or is a much better arena built to modern standards worth some of the sacrifices to do it.  You can build it and get the numbers to pencil out, you just need to do it on a lower scale than say San Francisco or Dallas does.

This logic just leads to the exact same situation we have now. If you're not going to build it to modern standards, then what's the point? Because that's what we've got currently. Heritage Bank Center is a relic of the past, but it's certainly not obsolete.

17 minutes ago, SWOH said:

 

There's another example too... Hara Arena in Dayton. It was privately owned for years. The owners held on for way too long and it all went to crap for a variety of reasons (neighborhood and upkeep were the two biggest). 

 

Hara Arena was a great, old hockey barn and had the best pizza in all of Ohio. 

That's a poor comparison, though. That building was nothing like Heritage Bank Center, it was much older and small, and its situation was completely different. 

 

But god damn was that pizza good.

 

27 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

If you build it, it will take care of itself. Will it be the nicest best in class arena? no, but it will be a major improvement from what we have. 

 

So, again, if it's not built to modern standards—what's the point? How is a whittled down venue still a "major improvement?" Especially if a reduction in seating capacity and amenities doesn't differentiate the building from the three other (lower capacity, yet still modern and nice) l university arenas in the area? 

 

This is such Cincinnati logic. 

 

Either do it right, or don't do it at all. 

Edited March 15, 20232 yr by Gordon Bombay

Big touring acts will still likely go to Indianapolis, Columbus, and Louisville. That means a lot of touring acts will still skip Cincinnati even if we build a brand new arena. We aren't going to poach that many additional acts by building a new arena because touring schedules simply won't let a giant act visit all 3 cities + Cincinnati. They will have to pick 1 or 2 cities.

 

Will we get a couple extra big names every year with a brand new arena? Probably. But that's not going to pay the bills.

 

A new arena would probably get better sponsorship deals, which could help fund the operations. While we will not get an NHL or NBA team, a G League team or an upgraded AHL Cyclones (or similar) is certainly possible (though obviously not guaranteed).

 

Also, I'm sure the DNC and RNC bring in good money, but that would only come to Cincinnati once, maybe twice in the entire lifespan of a new arena if at all. That event alone shouldn't even be taken into consideration.

 

Regardless of where we build a new arena, I do think Cincy needs a new one. Smarter people than me can figure out the financial backing. I don't anticipate the city or county doing anything more than what they did for the FCC stadium: infrastructure improvements around it, and having the Port "own" it to avoid property taxes and construction fees

The difference between an arena and an outdoor stadium is that it's multi-use. We do miss out on some of the bigger acts like Lady Gaga and Cincinnati could certainly host NCAA tournament games outside of the Final Four for men. We've hosted a women's final four here before and an NCAA Frozen Four but I doubt they'd come back to Heritage Bank Arena. Even if a new arena only has the Cyclones as a main tenant, that will help offset some of the operational costs. 

 

Just looking at the T-Mobile Center in Kansas City (which doesn't have a primary tenant) they have some large event every weekend. Some of the musical acts like Pink, Zach Bryan, probably wouldn't go to the Brady music center so they'd need an arena if they're planning on adding Cincinnati to their tour.

 

All that being said, the fact that UC decided to balk on playing downtown and instead renovate 5/3 really hurts. The new 5/3 is great but UC playing downtown in the Big XII against teams like Baylor and Kansas would have been great.

25 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

So, again, if it's not built to modern standards—what's the point? How is a whittled down venue still a "major improvement?" Especially if a reduction in seating capacity and amenities doesn't differentiate the building from the three other (lower capacity, yet still modern and nice) l university arenas in the area? 

 

This is such Cincinnati logic. 

 

Either do it right, or don't do it at all. 

I think you are misinterpreting my point. You build it right, you have an arena built to modern standards, but without a major tenant, some of the bells and whistles at say a Chase Center in San Fran may not be there. That still does not make it a very modern up to date arena. Some of these bells and whistles, often behind the scenes are not noticed by the general public anyway. You still build the arena based on what you have and how it finances currently. It is not being "so Cincinnati" it is building as to what the situation requires. For example, you are not building an A++ locker room for NBA and an NHL team as part of the process because we do not have an NBA or NHL team in Cincinnati. you spec it for that in case it happens in the future but you save a few million by not initially equipping the locker room to NBA quality from day 1.  That does not mean that it will not be suitable for preseason NBA/NHL games, it just wont have all the bells and whistles of the home NBA locker room that hosts the team for 40 games a year.

 

The other thing you cannot have (as a matter of practicality) is that without a major pro sports tenant is the continual updates that occur every 4-5 years at these arenas often at the behest of the pro-team. Things like million dollar locker room upgrades, upgrades to lower level suites and bars, various amenities to the super high end fan. This will happen less often, but it still does not mean the arena will not be a first class arena for many years to come for the regular fan. Part of the need for that arms race is that those NBA/NHL teams need to push the luxury envelope to get the high end customer to pay extra for season tix, etc. Not necessarily the same situation for an arena without a major tenant. You are still building to modern standards from the start.

 

46 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

No, that logic is not the "same", because...

• One's an arena, one's a convention center.

They're not comparable, because the Duke Energy Convention Center doesn't and wouldn't have a "tenant" in the same vein. It exists to host traveling events of a variety that an indoor arena could complement, but would never compete for. It has an argument for public support due to the economic impact it can contribute. 

 

That is the point. In an ideal world, a state of the art arena is used to house a major league sports team. We do not have that in Cincinnati. So, without that option, the justification for such an arena is economic development and tourism. While I am sure that if an NHL/NBA team wanted to come to town, we would not turn them away, but realistically, the arena will not host these events on a regular basis. 

Therefore, the primary goal of the arena is to host events that come to town on a travelling basis. Big concerts, RNC/DNC, NCAA tourney 1st round and Suite 16 rounds, assisting with large conventions like World Chioir Games or other large speakers, Pro-Sport exhibitions like NBA/NHL preseason games, WWE major events and a number of smaller minor league and traveling events.  The goal is to bring people to the arena and sell hotel nights. 

this is the same goal as the Convention Center. The Convention Center hosts meetings and traveling events that bring people to town. Yes, they offer a bit of a different scope than an arena, but the overall mission is the same. Without a major tenant, the business model is pretty similar, both places are essentially renting space. 

The issue with what you’re proposing, @Brutus_buckeye,  is that aside from the locker rooms — it makes no sense to skip on other amenities. By cutting corners, you’re just replicating the Heritage Bank Center with nicer seats or another variant of the three other arenas in the region (all within ten minutes of the existing arena). And if you’re not regularly upgrading the building, you’re just achieving milquetoast status even quicker. 
 

And it’s moot anyways, what Berding and Visit Cincy are proposing is a modern arena, not something value engineered. 
 

The only real debate, as fun as this topic has been, is: who’s paying for it, where will it go, and can they really get it done. 

Edited March 15, 20232 yr by Gordon Bombay

29 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

The difference between an arena and an outdoor stadium is that it's multi-use. We do miss out on some of the bigger acts like Lady Gaga and Cincinnati could certainly host NCAA tournament games outside of the Final Four for men. We've hosted a women's final four here before and an NCAA Frozen Four but I doubt they'd come back to Heritage Bank Arena. Even if a new arena only has the Cyclones as a main tenant, that will help offset some of the operational costs. 

NCAA has said it will not come to Heritage Bank. Locker rooms are not up to standards, too small and dated. 

To your point, a new arena could host NCAA events including Frozen 4 and Women's Final 4 again. 

 

Those are huge events, much bigger than Gaga because they draw a crowd that comes for multiple days and makes long weekends out of the event. NCAA events run at least 3 days and many people will extend a day on each end. 

 

Regarding the Cyclones, it depends who owns the team. If Nederlander owns the Cyclones (i forget the ownership structure) then it will likely stay at Heritage for as long as possible since operating costs would be more efficient there (Similar to what the Gardens did in the 90s with the Mighty Ducks).  But that does not mean another minor league team like NBA G League or Arena Football could fill that void. 

 

 

So I take it this is off-the-shelf...

 

 

4 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

The issue with what you’re proposing, @Brutus_buckeye,  is that aside from the locker rooms — it makes no sense to skip on other amenities. By cutting corners, you’re just replicating the Heritage Bank Center with nicer seats or another variant of the three other arenas in the region (all within ten minutes of the existing arena). And if you’re not regularly upgrading the building, you’re just achieving milquetoast status even quicker. 

I never meant to imply that. You build the arena with the state of the art seats and scoreboards. Your value engineering is behind the scenes in some of the luxury suites and locker rooms, etc. that cost significant money to build out but would receive little usage. The average fan does not notice that difference. 

13 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Just looking at the T-Mobile Center in Kansas City (which doesn't have a primary tenant) they have some large event every weekend. Some of the musical acts like Pink, Zach Bryan, probably wouldn't go to the Brady music center so they'd need an arena if they're planning on adding Cincinnati to their tour.

 

I know it's tempting to look at Kansas City because they built an arena without a primary tenant, but the city has a geographic advantage we simply don't have.

 

The nearest "big" cities to Kansas City by driving time are:
Omaha: 3 hours

St. Louis: 3 hours 45 min

Oklahoma City: 5 hours

Dallas: 8 hours 30 min

 

The nearest "big" cities to Cincinnati by driving time are:

Louisville: 1 hour 30 min

Columbus: 1 hour 36 min

Indianapolis: 1 hour 45 min

Cleveland: 3 hours 45 min

Detroit: 4 hours 

Nashville: 4 hours 15 min

Pittsburgh: 4 hours 30 min

Chicago: 4 hours 30 min

St. Louis: 5 hours 15 min

 

Almost every major touring act visits Nashville, Detroit, and Chicago. That leaves two dates or so to fill in around Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana. All of our 3 closest competitors (Louisville, Columbus, and Indy) have nice arenas. They typically can't visit all 4 cities.

 

Kansas City is so isolated from its peers, it makes almost every tour schedule. It's a large city that is completely isolated. Like Denver, almost every tour stops in Kansas City because it just makes sense logistically. Again, we will likely pick up a few bigger acts with a new, 17,000-ish capacity arena. But we still won't see every major act come to Cincy, just like they don't all come to Columbus, Indy, and Louisville.

 

And coincidentally, Pink is playing at Great American Ballpark this summer. Zach Bryan is playing Lexington. Even with a new arena, his management might still have chosen Lexington.