Granted it’s in the middle of Philadelphia but the new Sixers arena will cost $1.3 billion. I think the new Islanders arena ran close to a billion. Again, that’s NY prices but an NBA/NHL level arena is going to be over $500 million 

22 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

He's not an opinion writer - he's "Executive Editor/Market Leader": https://www.cincinnati.com/staff/2648260001/beryl-love/

 

This is the same man that didn't know Cincinnati owned a railroad and didn't know how to pronounce Xavier, as in Xavier University and/or St. Xavier High School.  

 

This guy is angling for a job with the blue bloods so he's going to express whatever "opinion" they tell him to.    

 

 

Touch grass

Alabama's new arena is in the ballpark of $185 million as of this February. Just guesses, but I would think the Riverbend site would be around $250 million and downtown would be $400 million plus. 

Alabama is building a 10,000 seat venue low frills attached  at deep south prices. No union workers in those parts.Cincinnati will be 20,000-22,5000 seats built to host a professional teams specs.$500 minimum probably 600-700 mil.

On 12/22/2023 at 12:47 PM, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

Touch grass

 

I had to look up the meaning of this quip...

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/touch-grass

 

...since I'm not on Twitter or the rest of the internet much.  Since I...go outside a lot. 

 

It's just amazing to see how everyone's lining up to believe whatever Lindner/Berding say regarding this arena, despite all of their lies regarding the soccer stadium.  The soccer stadium has been operational for several years but it has spurred zero development.  It has hosted one concert and maybe 2-3 other events.  The stadium website lists exactly one not-FC Cincinnati event for 2024: https://tqlstadium.com/events. Yet we are promised that their taxpayer-subsidized arena will bring us all sorts of concerts and events we're not getting currently, and people are taking their bait. 

 

 

 

 

I went to the US vs Mexico game a couple years ago in the FCC stadium and it was amazing, also the development is coming near the stadium. Its been slower than we all want but the hotel and residential towers in that area will be huge. If having a new arena will bring some random NCAA tournament games or anything with that same level of excitement I'm all for it unless it involves demolishing more historic buildings which the CET site, casino site or convention center area shouldn't. 

2 hours ago, ucgrady said:

 the hotel and residential towers in that area will be huge.

 

No, it won't.  The busiest arena in the United States is Madison Square Garden, which is about 10 years older than our supposedly hapless Riverfront Coliseum. 

 

Take a look at the blocks around Madison Square Garden on Google Streeview.  There is pretty much *no business* that is oriented toward the arena's almost nightly events.  Like 350~ big events per year.   All of the concerts that Cincinnati supposedly doesn't get.  NBA.  NHL. 

 

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

No, it won't.  The busiest arena in the United States is Madison Square Garden, which is about 10 years older than our supposedly hapless Riverfront Coliseum. 

 

Take a look at the blocks around Madison Square Garden on Google Streeview.  There is pretty much *no business* that is oriented toward the arena's almost nightly events.  Like 350~ big events per year.   All of the concerts that Cincinnati supposedly doesn't get.  NBA.  NHL. 

 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don't know what you're saying. Are you suggesting that a massive hotel and residential development won't have any impact on the city?

 

No one is seriously suggesting that we'll get every concert and get an NBA and NHL team with a new arena.

 

The current arena sucks, though. If the billionaires want to build a new arena in a similar manner to the west end stadium (infrastructure upgrades and such, but everything else paid for my the billionaires), I'm ok with that. Throw $20 million at it and get a new arena. Cool.

37 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

No, it won't. 

The hotel being huge has nothing to do with this new arena, it has to do with the historic district across Central which can't have towers built in it. It has more in common with the hotel towers on Canal street in New Orleans than anything to do with MSG. The Manhattan example might be the Standard Hotel, which is just outside the West Village where tourists want to go but there aren't any large hotel towers because it's a national historic district. OTR has strict limits (for good reason) and the development opportunities just on the other side of Central are huge to build up the density needed to help support OTR's businesses and tourism.

 

I still think a new arena should go on the reclaimed land from the BSB or near the casino, but I also think if a group wants to use their own money/influence to build a new one; beggars can't be choosers and it will go where they want it to go. I don't "trust" Berding, I just know there are no other groups or pots of money lining up to replace or renovate our city's arena. 

 

14 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

I had to look up the meaning of this quip...

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/touch-grass

 

...since I'm not on Twitter or the rest of the internet much.  Since I...go outside a lot. 

 

It's just amazing to see how everyone's lining up to believe whatever Lindner/Berding say regarding this arena, despite all of their lies regarding the soccer stadium.  The soccer stadium has been operational for several years but it has spurred zero development.  It has hosted one concert and maybe 2-3 other events.  The stadium website lists exactly one not-FC Cincinnati event for 2024: https://tqlstadium.com/events. Yet we are promised that their taxpayer-subsidized arena will bring us all sorts of concerts and events we're not getting currently, and people are taking their bait. 

 

 

 

 

 

For someone who goes outside a lot you sure do seem to hate the world.

 

If you think the stadium hasn't been a positive for OTR or Court Street business you should go talk to them sometime because they'll tell you otherwise. 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

No, it won't.  The busiest arena in the United States is Madison Square Garden, which is about 10 years older than our supposedly hapless Riverfront Coliseum. 

 

Take a look at the blocks around Madison Square Garden on Google Streeview.  There is pretty much *no business* that is oriented toward the arena's almost nightly events.  Like 350~ big events per year.   All of the concerts that Cincinnati supposedly doesn't get.  NBA.  NHL. 

 

 

 

 

 

How on earth could you make this claim based on street view? Have you ever hung out around there? There are tons of bars and restaurants that exist because of MSG and market toward arena patrons. 

the only thing i will miss when the cet building is demoed is the fun happy laughing faces. it looks like a big box store. and the only time ive ever seen a parking lot like this one is outside of rome. sometimes fast food drive thru is lost at sea.

The building is ugly and not very urban, so it's not going to be a big loss. However if WCET leaves that location and relocates outside of downtown, we will have lost every single radio/television broadcaster from the CBD/OTR area. It's possible WCET will almost shutter their Cincinnati presence entirely and handle everything from their Dayton studios as they are now part of the same parent organization.

On 12/27/2023 at 12:07 AM, Lazarus said:

The soccer stadium has been operational for several years but it has spurred zero development.  It has hosted one concert and maybe 2-3 other events.  The stadium website lists exactly one not-FC Cincinnati event for 2024: https://tqlstadium.com/events. Yet we are promised that their taxpayer-subsidized arena will bring us all sorts of concerts and events we're not getting currently, and people are taking their bait. 

 

They've broken ground on the TQL adjacent development which will be great for the surrounding area. The stadium was in use for soccer alone from the end of February to the end of November, bringing on average 24,000 patrons to the area. If you don't think that hasn't helped local businesses then you're obviously not paying attention. Try getting into an OTR restaurant on gameday within 2 hours of kickoff. You're not going to be able to get a table. This year they're also hosting one of the biggest country acts in the nation which will bring in more folks. 

 

23 hours ago, Lazarus said:

No, it won't.  The busiest arena in the United States is Madison Square Garden, which is about 10 years older than our supposedly hapless Riverfront Coliseum. 

 

Take a look at the blocks around Madison Square Garden on Google Streeview.  There is pretty much *no business* that is oriented toward the arena's almost nightly events.  Like 350~ big events per year.   All of the concerts that Cincinnati supposedly doesn't get.  NBA.  NHL. 

 

Now you're just being purposely obtuse. MSG has tons of businesses that surround the arena that cater to sports fans and concert goers. It might also be older but MSG also had $1 billion in renovations about 10 years ago to bring it up to snuff and they're currently panning on another huge renovation. MSG also has a smaller venue that's not part of the main arena so you're really comparing the Big Apple and oranges. 

 

No one expects Cincinnati to get an NBA or NHL team unless one relocates but to claim that the Heritage Bank Center is just fine, again shows that you don't know what you're talking about but please respond with another clip of wrestling from the 80s. I love pro wrestling so I'm always up for that. IMO, UC should have built a nice new arena where the innovation district is but that ship has sailed. 

 

On 12/27/2023 at 12:07 AM, Lazarus said:

I had to look up the meaning of this quip...

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/touch-grass

 

...since I'm not on Twitter or the rest of the internet much.  Since I...go outside a lot. 

 

You're sure salty for someone who claims not to be online a lot. Please go touch grass. Maybe pet a dog. 

I am excited for the possibility that exists with FC and their development in the West End but I am having a hard time picturing how it's going to look and how it ends up functioning throughout the city. Will it draw away from the Banks during the weekends / bar scene or will it not be as bar heavy as the Banks?

 

With all this new development I sometimes wonder will it get oversaturated? That's why I am not in the business of opening retail or would ever want to be... That said, there is so much room for more residences / hotels / office in downtown / OTR that if the momentum keeps growing and more and more space gets filled then it should continue to add to the vibrancy overall.

 

 

1 hour ago, IAGuy39 said:

I am excited for the possibility that exists with FC and their development in the West End but I am having a hard time picturing how it's going to look and how it ends up functioning throughout the city. Will it draw away from the Banks during the weekends / bar scene or will it not be as bar heavy as the Banks?

 

With all this new development I sometimes wonder will it get oversaturated? That's why I am not in the business of opening retail or would ever want to be... That said, there is so much room for more residences / hotels / office in downtown / OTR that if the momentum keeps growing and more and more space gets filled then it should continue to add to the vibrancy overall.

 

 

I believe it stated that there will be 50,000 sq ft of retail. FC Cincinnatis store will take up some space and I’m assuming they will have a SuperBook sports betting site. Would be cool if thy did something like ballpark village In St. Louis. 

A brick and mortar sportsbook makes no sense to me because it’s so easy to place bets online. But they’re probably renting out the space to a sportsbook company 

4 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

A brick and mortar sportsbook makes no sense to me because it’s so easy to place bets online. But they’re probably renting out the space to a sportsbook company 

It will prolly be something like the betMGM in the old Galla Park location at the Banks  with a bar and or restaurant attached. 

On 12/28/2023 at 1:14 PM, JaceTheAce41 said:

If you don't think that hasn't helped local businesses then you're obviously not paying attention. Try getting into an OTR restaurant on gameday within 2 hours of kickoff. You're not going to be able to get a table. This year they're also hosting one of the biggest country acts in the nation which will bring in more folks. 

 

I am always surprised and impressed by how many people I see parking relatively far from the stadium (in the Ziegler Park Garage or Pendleton parking lots for example), making it a full day in OTR and visiting multiple local businesses on their way to the games. I expected some people to do that, but the numbers I see on a typical game day are far more than I expected prior to the stadium's opening.

 

On 12/28/2023 at 12:21 PM, taestell said:

The building is ugly and not very urban, so it's not going to be a big loss. However if WCET leaves that location and relocates outside of downtown, we will have lost every single radio/television broadcaster from the CBD/OTR area. It's possible WCET will almost shutter their Cincinnati presence entirely and handle everything from their Dayton studios as they are now part of the same parent organization.

i hope you are not suggesting the people of Cincinnati should somehow subsidize construction of a new facility for cet. But let's just suppose they do.  the people who are building new and expanding the presence of Cincy on the world map these days is Bering and his bosses. I could see building a bigger taller buiding as part of the proposed soccer village for cet and its needs. If i had to guess, in the near future it will not matter where a building is located. it will probably be more important to have the latest and greatest technologies up and running to stay ahead of tsunami of time. In 1901 there were few if any hard surfaced roads and railroads were the tycoons of progress. In 2001 we have crowded interstates and railroads are just in the way. In 2101 you will be able to broadcast from anywhere. oops!

 

I don't think that people are paying any attention to the fact that TQL Stadium + the contemplated TQL Arena will pull ancillary activity away from The Banks - where the city and county have invested more than $1 billion in local public dollars since the tax began in late 1996. 

 

So we have people on this forum suggesting that more public dollars ought to be spent to poach activity from The Banks on order to shift Riverfront Coliseum's associated restaurant and hotel activity to the hot corner of Ezzard Charles and Central Parkway. 

 

But let's back up even more - had Toyota The Mercy Healths become tenants in Paul Brown Stadium Paycor Stadium, we'd have the equivalent of about 20 more Reds Redlegs Reds home games on the riverfront each year.  If Riverfront Coliseum The Crown Firstar Center US Bank Arena Heritage Bank Arena were renovated ala Madison Square Garden...exactly how much more activity would we get? 

 

Nobody here has the expertise to assert exactly what we're missing by not having a modern arena with no NHL or NBA tenant.

 

Nobody here has the inside knowledge to comment on what the country clubbers might have planned for the Riverfront Coliseum site, should it be demolished.  A replacement baseball stadium? 

 

 

23 hours ago, Lazarus said:

So we have people on this forum suggesting that more public dollars ought to be spent to poach activity from The Banks on order to shift Riverfront Coliseum's associated restaurant and hotel activity to the hot corner of Ezzard Charles and Central Parkway. 

 

No one is suggesting the arena be built with public money. Lindner & Co. are rich enough to build one on their own and already built TQL on their own. The city will have to update the infrastructure but considering how old a lot of the piping etc in this city, it's not a bad thing to redo that. (Cue Jake putting on a tinfoil hat about how this is all a nefarious plan to make the subway tunnels unusable by the Lindners).

 

23 hours ago, Lazarus said:

But let's back up even more - had Toyota The Mercy Healths become tenants in Paul Brown Stadium Paycor Stadium, we'd have the equivalent of about 20 more Reds Redlegs Reds home games on the riverfront each year.  If Riverfront Coliseum The Crown Firstar Center US Bank Arena Heritage Bank Arena were renovated ala Madison Square Garden...exactly how much more activity would we get? 

 

We get it, you don't like soccer so cut it out with the Mercy Healths schtick. PBS/Paycor was never an option. When UC was playing football there while Nippert was being renovated they needed to average 40,000 to break even because of the terrible lease deal that the Bengals have. FC Cincinnati (that's their name so use it) are a different entity with different owners. The only MLS teams that play in NFL stadiums do so beause the are jointly owned (ATL, Charlotte, New England) or have favorable lease terms (Seattle and San Diego). PBS would have been terrible for soccer on a weekly basis and Nippert wasn't going to cut it either. You're just mad that we have a very successful soccer team and that the Lindners are involved. 

 

That being said, ideally, the company that owns Heritage Bank Center would have renovated it or we'd build a new arena there. UC should have taken them up on the offer to be a main tenant at HBC instead of renovating 5/3. If we had a new arena regardless of where it is, we'd get more bigger concerts, NCAA tournaments for multiple sports, and a few more other large events (comedy tours, religious stuff, etc). We'd probably get 20-30 extra events a year in a new or renovated arena.

On 12/30/2023 at 3:15 PM, Lazarus said:

Nobody here has the expertise to assert exactly what we're missing by not having a modern arena with no NHL or NBA tenant.

 

I worked in sports for over a decade and have a lot of friends who work in the sports and entertainment industry. Ideally we'd have a major tenant in the arena to fill abut 60-70% of the seats on a regular basis. A lot cities do have major arenas without a tenant though. TBH I'm not in favor of putting an arena in the West End but that's probably where it'll go. 

 

On 12/30/2023 at 3:15 PM, Lazarus said:

Nobody here has the inside knowledge to comment on what the country clubbers might have planned for the Riverfront Coliseum site, should it be demolished.  A replacement baseball stadium? 

 

And there's another conspiracy. The HBC is owned by a completely different outfit than the "country clubbers". That's prime real estate for residential and GABP isn't going to be replaced for a very very long time. It's still fairly new because, unlike the Bengals, the Reds do a good job of maintaining the place. Cleveland's stadium is older than GABP and they're renovating it. I know what you're going to say though, Atlanta and Milwaukee. ATL moved because their fans are racist and Milwaukee is trying to fleece the tax payers. The Reds aren't going to try to move to a new stadium and Modell's law keeps them and the Bengals in Ohio for the foreseeable future.

1 hour ago, ucnum1 said:

.FC wants to bring a NHL team to town in their long range plans

 

I can't see this happening unless its a relocation. The NHL expansion fee was $750 million for Seattle and that's a major market. Florida's arena lease is coming up in the near future, Winnepeg is struggling to draw fans and Ottawa has an arena in the middle of nowhere so they might be candidates. Arizona is likely to move to Salt Lake City in the near future and Houston and Atlanta have been on the expansion radar.

 

It would be funny to move the Blue Jackets if that meant a new ownership group that actually cared about winning. The FCC owners clearly do. There's also the issue of how far can the sports dollar go in a city the size of Cincinnati. No other city our size has four of the five major leagues and the NHL team would compete with the Bengals for attention, sponsorship, etc during the winter months. I just think it's very unlikely but I'd be the biggest fan of a Cincinnati NHL team.

 

 

20 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

would be funny to move the Blue Jackets if that meant a new ownership group that actually cared about winning.

If an NHL Team ever came to Cincinnati, I think the Blue Jackets days in Columbus are numbered. Neither Cincy nor Columbus are big hockey towns and it just seems like even in Ohio, many people who go to Blue Jacket games are Blackhawk, Red Wing, Penguins, Sabres fans. 

 

I have not been following the Winnepeg saga lately. I thought they were doing pretty well there. Correct me if I am wrong but they moved there from Atlanta about 10 years ago, right?

 

I agree with you about the economics of hockey but think an NHL team may work better here than NBA given the huge college basketball presence in the market.

Ownership group has hired out feasabilty studies on having a NBA and or NHL franchise in a new arena.Came back the NHL is much more viable to do well in the Cincinnati metro market.The arena size was recommended to be a minimum of 20k seats with having a franchise in mind.Its a long range vision of  the ownerships group but I tend to think a NHL franchise could work in this city at its price point.A NHL franchise and new Arena can be had for 1.5-2 billion.NBA franchise  is probably double that cost.

27 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

I can't see this happening unless its a relocation. The NHL expansion fee was $750 million for Seattle and that's a major market. Florida's arena lease is coming up in the near future, Winnepeg is struggling to draw fans and Ottawa has an arena in the middle of nowhere so they might be candidates. Arizona is likely to move to Salt Lake City in the near future and Houston and Atlanta have been on the expansion radar.

 

It would be funny to move the Blue Jackets if that meant a new ownership group that actually cared about winning. The FCC owners clearly do. There's also the issue of how far can the sports dollar go in a city the size of Cincinnati. No other city our size has four of the five major leagues and the NHL team would compete with the Bengals for attention, sponsorship, etc during the winter months. I just think it's very unlikely but I'd be the biggest fan of a Cincinnati NHL team.

27 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

Came back the NHL is much more viable to do well in the Cincinnati metro market.T

What were the key reasons why NHL came back much better for Cincinnati market?? 

I assume the cost was cheaper for an NHL team, salaries were lower and player salaries were lower than NBA? Depending on which team would relocate, an Eastern Conference team would probably involve less travel too? 

 

The one big concern is that local hockey is not very big in Cincinnati. Many of the top youth teams travel or the best players will play outside of the market. I know things are not much different with Cincy than Columbus so I guess that does not matter much. I doubt Nashville and Raleigh have much of a large youth hockey presence either. Obviously, the number of sponsorships would always be a concern, but with Hockey, it could be marketed regionally with Cincy/Dayton/Lex as a combined market for sponsors.

 

Are you able to shed any light on some of the specifics of that report?

It's been a good 6 months since I saw the numbers.But a NHL franchise was projected to be a profitable endeavor with a  high end of $15-20 million in operating profit in the Cincinnati market.The high ceiling numbers of a average attendance of 15,500 to 16,250 per game projected. A bit above NHL league average I believe.A NBA team in Cincinnati was projected at below average league attendance by about 8-10% per game.Still a profitable franchise but a median NBA team is also worth about 30 percent more than a median  NHL franchise and the gap is growing.

 

The Cincinnati market can support 1 more pro franchise but not 2 was the consensus.And a NHL franchise is much easier to purchase and relocate.

3 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

It's been a good 6 months since I saw the numbers.But a NHL franchise was projected to be a profitable endeavor with a  high end of $15-20 million in operating profit in the Cincinnati market.The high ceiling numbers of a average attendance of 15,500 to 16,250 per game projected. A bit above NHL league average I believe.A NBA team in Cincinnati was projected at below average league attendance by about 8-10% per game.Still a profitable franchise but a median NBA team is also worth about 30 percent more than a median  NHL franchise and the gap is growing.

 

The Cincinnati market can support 1 more pro franchise but not 2 was the consensus.And a NHL franchise is much easier to purchase and relocate.

Especially when the nba is still focusing on expanding significantly larger markets like Mexico City, Vegas, and seattle. 

It's not my area of expertise but I just see no way how this city can support another pro sports team with 3 already. And that's not to mention the three colleges (one of which is now a P5 program and another that's a strong basketball school). 

Cincinnati is not getting a NBA or NHL team.  There are far too many cities that are ahead of it in both categories that are in-line.

2 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

Cincinnati is not getting a NBA or NHL team.  There are far too many cities that are ahead of it in both categories that are in-line.

I do not think that is necessarily the case. I agree with you that Cincinnati is not a preferred city for the NBA or NHL nor is it one of the markets that the league would strongly desire for an expansion market, but part of that is that the city is underrated and the local growth and regional aspects are not quite highlighted as much.

 

I think the thing with an NHL team in Cincy (or NBA) is that it probably would not be an expansion team but rather a relocation. The Lindner ownership group (assuming they would be the ones to purchase a team for an arena they would privately own) could purchase a struggling NHL team at a discount vs pay a much higher expansion fee. The NHL would then not have an issue if it can be shown that Cincinnati would be a more viable than say Winnepeg, Ottawa or Phoenix because Cincinnati could offer a new arena and potentially more engaged fan base and (not Phoenix) larger market size. 

 

17 hours ago, ucnum1 said:

It's been a good 6 months since I saw the numbers. But a NHL franchise was projected to be a profitable endeavor with a  high end of $15-20 million in operating profit in the Cincinnati market. The high ceiling numbers of a average attendance of 15,500 to 16,250 per game projected. A bit above NHL league average I believe.A NBA team in Cincinnati was projected at below average league attendance by about 8-10% per game.Still a profitable franchise but a median NBA team is also worth about 30 percent more than a median  NHL franchise and the gap is growing.

 

The Cincinnati market can support 1 more pro franchise but not 2 was the consensus. And a NHL franchise is much easier to purchase and relocate.

The interesting thing, if you look at what the Lindners have done with FCC vs what other potential sports that are out there, is that they seem to be looking for sports leagues that are undervalued or on the low end now. MLS is up and coming. The NHL today is at a low point compared to where it was 20-30 years ago. The NBA is at its peak. Traditionally, for those leagues, values have ebbed and flowed a bit. They have not been as linear as NFL and MLB values.  I think the NHL will grow over the years especially with gambling and better camera technology.  The biggest downside though about the NHL is that it is not a great TV sport. 

 

I did find it fascinating and this obviously has no empirical data behind it, but I was in Raleigh and Nashville in the past on random weekends (i am sure the same is true in Columbus too). Each time, there were a number of Canadian visitors in town on a quick hockey getaway to see their team (Leafs, Senators and Canucks in these cases). Air Canada offered some decent weekend travel options to the area for hockey travelers. Hockey fans do tend to travel it seems, and certainly an NHL team would create some additional international exposure for the area. 

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

Cincinnati is not getting a NBA or NHL team.  There are far too many cities that are ahead of it in both categories that are in-line.

 

Let's build an arena with no major tenant anyway.

 

Same trick Lindner played with the soccer stadium - pay for the "arena" himself (and retain ownership!) but the city/county pay for everything (or give away) that makes the facility possible. 

 

2 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Cincinnati is not getting a NBA or NHL team.  There are far too many cities that are ahead of it in both categories that are in-line.

Most mid size cities do not have a active ownership group of 3 multi billionaires actively looking to build 20k seat brand new arenas.Not to mention filling those arenas.The group wants a little sports fiefdom in what thjer building in the West End.Did I mention they are  3 multi billionaires?

1 hour ago, ucnum1 said:

Most mid size cities do not have a active ownership group of 3 multi billionaires actively looking to build 20k seat brand new arenas.Not to mention filling those arenas.The group wants a little sports fiefdom in what thjer building in the West End.Did I mention they are  3 multi billionaires?

 

While I generally agree billionaires obviously help but they aren't the whole picture.  Ask Seattle and the SuperSonics (and Seattle has way more billionaires than the entire state of Ohio).  Market economy, location, growth of metro, etc.  Cincinnati, while doing great with 3 professional teams, isn't rich or large enough to support another.  Denver is the smallest market with 4 professional teams and it's larger and richer than any metro in this state.

 

Seattle is the obvious choice for next NBA team, followed by Las Vegas. SLC and Portland are the two obvious next choices for NHL expansion.

The ownership group is very well aware Cincinnati's odds are stacked against it in any expansion scenario for the NBA or NHL.That is why the plan is too buy a current team in a struggling market and relocate it to Cincinnati.The NHL they also know is the much more likely scenario.And I disagree I think a NHL team will do well in Cincinnati.People keep on underestimating the Linders and Whitman's ambition for this area of the city.They plan to invest $3 billion plus in their long range vision of 8-10 years 

7 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

That is why the plan is too buy a current team in a struggling market and relocate it to Cincinnati.

 

Who has said this is “the plan?” I mean, I could see it, but has that been confirmed?

 

The NBA is incredibly unlikely (at this juncture)—the markets that are already better poised for expansion are also the same ones sitting in line for “buy[ing] a current team in a struggling market.”

And what is the NHL’s motivation? There’s certainly no shortage of underperforming markets that a billionaire could choose to pluck a team from, but ultimately you get a small metro Queen City market that’s never been particularly warm to hockey and has to compete for corporate sponsorships and ticket dollars with three existing major professional teams and features another small-market team just up the road. 

 

I mean, none of this is impossible, but the “limited concourses” floated so far are in my opinion the best indicator that they’re not going for an NBA or NHL team. Unless this area is upwards of $1 Billion and laced with corporate amenities + paired with a major development deal (one bigger than what currently exists), no NBA or NHL team is going to look at a cut-corner arena in Cincinnati over the multiple other markets.

20 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

While I generally agree billionaires obviously help but they aren't the whole picture.  Ask Seattle and the SuperSonics (and Seattle has way more billionaires than the entire state of Ohio).  Market economy, location, growth of metro, etc.  Cincinnati, while doing great with 3 professional teams, isn't rich or large enough to support another.  Denver is the smallest market with 4 professional teams and it's larger and richer than any metro in this state.

 

Seattle is the obvious choice for next NBA team, followed by Las Vegas. SLC and Portland are the two obvious next choices for NHL expansion.

To validate/sharpen your points I tried to source some number of billionaires between the states but it’s pretty unclear. 

 

seattle has 10 billionaires, the state has 13. Forbes says Ohio has 7 but it doesn’t include the Lindner family, Frecka family, Thoma bravo, or Ken Oaks which makes me think they’re missing other people.

I'm pretty sure Forbes includes "families" as of their latest list at https://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/ and https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2023/04/17/les-wexner-made-forbes-2023-billionaire-list-see-how-much-he-is-worth-ohio-new-albany-columbus/70122335007/ and https://huroninsider.com/?p=13326.  For example, it does show the Wexner and York families.

 

Off-topic, I know, but here are Ohio's billionaires in 2023:

 

1. Les Wexner and family

2023 net worth: $6 billion.

Residence: New Albany.

Source of income: Retail.

Rank: No. 425.

 

2. Denise York and family

2023 net worth: $5.1 billion.

Residence: Youngstown.

Source of income: Owner of the San Francisco 49ers.

Rank: No. 523.

 

3. Clayton Mathile

2023 net worth: $2.3 billion.

Residence: Brookville.

Source of income: Pet food.

Rank: No. 1,312.

 

4. August Troendle

2023 net worth: $1.6 billion.

Residence: Cincinnati.

Source of income: Pharmaceutical services.

Rank: No. 1,804.

 

5. Norma Lerner

2023 net worth: $1.1 billion.

Residence: Cleveland.

Source of income: Banking.

Rank: No. 2,405.

 

6. Nancy Lerner

2023 net worth: $1.1 billion.

Residence: Cleveland.

Source of income: Banking, credit cards.

Rank: No. 2,405.

 

7. Randolph Lerner

2023 net worth: $1.1 billion.

Residence: Cleveland.

Source of income: Banking, credit cards.

Rank: No. 2,405.

 

Clayton died, FYI.  The only actual billionaire in Cincinnati is the Medpace guy and I don't really see him bringing a NHL or NBA team to Cincinnati. The Lindners are still a very wealthy family but I don't see any evidence of them being actual billionaires in 2023.  Meg Whitman, of course, is a billionare does she even have the pull to bring a team to a mid-sized market smaller and poorer than Denver?  

Ken Oaks is probably the richest person in the city but since TQL is private Forbes can't estimate his wealth accurately.  

2 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Ask Seattle and the SuperSonics (and Seattle has way more billionaires than the entire state of Ohio).

But did Seattle have a billionaire wanting to bring a team back to the city? Did said billionaire want to navigate the complexities of dealing with Seattle to build such an arena? These are factors too. The majority of billionaires do not own teams because they have no desire to do so. Lindners at least have the political clout and know the process and can navigate easier in a mid-sized city of Cincinnati than it would be for a different billionaire to navigate the waters in Seattle. 

 

2 hours ago, ucnum1 said:

People keep on underestimating the Linders and Whitman's ambition for this area of the city.They plan to invest $3 billion plus in their long range vision of 8-10 years

People forget about Whitman because she does not live here. She likes the city and is close with Lindners. She is well connected nationally too. 

 

2 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

And what is the NHL’s motivation? There’s certainly no shortage of underperforming markets that a billionaire could choose to pluck a team from, but ultimately you get a small metro Queen City market that’s never been particularly warm to hockey and has to compete for corporate sponsorships and ticket dollars with three existing major professional teams and features another small-market team just up the road. 

 

I mean, none of this is impossible, but the “limited concourses” floated so far are in my opinion the best indicator that they’re not going for an NBA or NHL team. Unless this area is upwards of $1 Billion and laced with corporate amenities + paired with a major development deal (one bigger than what currently exists), no NBA or NHL team is going to look at a cut-corner arena in Cincinnati over the multiple other markets.

I think the point is that you are not going to attract an out of state owner (like the former Crew owner or Irsay family with the Colts) to say I cant make it in my current city, I am going to go to Cincinnati. 

however, having the lindners own the team is a completely different scenario. They are spending the money to bring it here even if it is a riskier proposition. Remember, they will own the arena to mitigate the risk. Much different value prop than renting a new arena from the county. 

 

I agree it is a long shot, but if you go back to 2014 when FC was talking about starting (after numerous failed other soccer teams) and projecting them to be a successful MLS team, I think most people would have laughed at that proposition too. 

2 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

I'm pretty sure Forbes includes "families" as of their latest list at https://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/ and https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/2023/04/17/les-wexner-made-forbes-2023-billionaire-list-see-how-much-he-is-worth-ohio-new-albany-columbus/70122335007/ and https://huroninsider.com/?p=13326.  For example, it does show the Wexner and York families.

 

Off-topic, I know, but here are Ohio's billionaires in 2023:

 

1. Les Wexner and family

2023 net worth: $6 billion.

Residence: New Albany.

Source of income: Retail.

Rank: No. 425.

 

2. Denise York and family

2023 net worth: $5.1 billion.

Residence: Youngstown.

Source of income: Owner of the San Francisco 49ers.

Rank: No. 523.

 

3. Clayton Mathile

2023 net worth: $2.3 billion.

Residence: Brookville.

Source of income: Pet food.

Rank: No. 1,312.

 

4. August Troendle

2023 net worth: $1.6 billion.

Residence: Cincinnati.

Source of income: Pharmaceutical services.

Rank: No. 1,804.

 

5. Norma Lerner

2023 net worth: $1.1 billion.

Residence: Cleveland.

Source of income: Banking.

Rank: No. 2,405.

 

6. Nancy Lerner

2023 net worth: $1.1 billion.

Residence: Cleveland.

Source of income: Banking, credit cards.

Rank: No. 2,405.

 

7. Randolph Lerner

2023 net worth: $1.1 billion.

Residence: Cleveland.

Source of income: Banking, credit cards.

Rank: No. 2,405.

 

Clayton died, FYI.  The only actual billionaire in Cincinnati is the Medpace guy and I don't really see him bringing a NHL or NBA team to Cincinnati. The Lindners are still a very wealthy family but I don't see any evidence of them being actual billionaires in 2023.  Meg Whitman, of course, is a billionare does she even have the pull to bring a team to a mid-sized market smaller and poorer than Denver?  

Both Lindner brothers are worth 1.5 to 2 billion apiece.Meg Whitman is worth closer to 8  billion.I won't name sources but these people are involved with the plans for FC Cincinnati in the West End on a daily basis.This ownership group has the pull to get another major league franchise into Cincinnati.Believe it or not.Will it happen? I like their chances for a NHL team in 4 to 5 years.

47 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

, but if you go back to 2014 when FC was talking about starting (after numerous failed other soccer teams) and projecting them to be a successful MLS team, I think most people would have laughed at that proposition too. 

Except, as we’ve discussed in the arena thread, the situations aren’t comparable. MLS, despite its growth since 2010, sits well behind the other four established major leagues in multiple categories and operates very, very differently. It was also (and still is to a point) a league actively recruiting widespread expansion as opposed to just considering a market or two. Not to mention, it has a completely different venue setup and requirements—the costs of which are far lower in order to match or even best your contemporaries. What made the case for FCC was not only the wealthy ownership, but also an established market for TV viewership and in-game attendance. There’s no real “failed teams” to compare FCC to because all previous iterations were either indoor or “pro” outdoor teams playing in leagues well well well below that of even the MLS of 1996. Even FCC’s first season in USL at division 3 was a major jump from the previous indoor attempts and historical attempts like the Riverhawks and Comets. 
 

The NHL, which now sees its tv viewership often compared to MLS, is probably the weakest of the four legacy leagues. However, Cincinnati would really need to make a case for long term sustainability even beyond just having wealthy ownership and as fans just saw with the decades long Islanders arena saga—a half-measure arena with “limited concourses” isn’t going to cut it. Whatever the final arena plan is, it needs to be a big deal for the NHL to consider let alone before the NBA even has some talks (and really, if you’re gonna build it, you might as well go all out and future proof it as much as you can lest we repeat history). 
 

I agree it’s technically doable, but I wouldn’t bet on it. Which is why citizens should be rightfully skeptical of “a potential NBA or NHL team” being a selling point (which, so far, hasn’t been explicitly said). The prudent thing to do would be for this arena to also serve as an extension of a remodeled convention center. But that point is moot if this is truly all private investment. If CL3, Berding, and Whitman want an arena to complement their existing investments they’re free to pursue that. That’s what DeWitt did with the Coliseum back in the 1970s. Which, by the way, also offers an interesting and cautionary tale about “major league” tenants. 

Edited January 11, 20241 yr by Gordon Bombay

We aren't getting an NHL or NBA team.

 

I still think we need an updated arena, but let's not lie to ourselves

2 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

We aren't getting an NHL or NBA team.

 

I still think we need an updated arena, but let's not lie to ourselves

Arena Football it is, then. I hope the new team is named the “Limited Concourses” and the mascot is Lazarus—because indoor football is always rising from the dead and as a tribute to the one and only, @Lazarus.

WNBA is an option.

2 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

WNBA is an option.

 

Now THAT is a more realistic option.  Cleveland has the Cavs and Cincinnati can have...The Queens.

15 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

Except, as we’ve discussed in the arena thread, the situations aren’t comparable. MLS, despite its growth since 2010, sits well behind the other four established major leagues in multiple categories and operates very, very differently. It was also (and still is to a point) a league actively recruiting widespread expansion as opposed to just considering a market or two. Not to mention, it has a completely different venue setup and requirements—the costs of which are far lower in order to match or even best your contemporaries. What made the case for FCC was not only the wealthy ownership, but also an established market for TV viewership and in-game attendance. There’s no real “failed teams” to compare FCC to because all previous iterations were either indoor or “pro” outdoor teams playing in leagues well well well below that of even the MLS of 1996. Even FCC’s first season in USL at division 3 was a major jump from the previous indoor attempts and historical attempts like the Riverhawks and Comets. 
 

The NHL, which now sees its tv viewership often compared to MLS, is probably the weakest of the four legacy leagues. However, Cincinnati would really need to make a case for long term sustainability even beyond just having wealthy ownership and as fans just saw with the decades long Islanders arena saga—a half-measure arena with “limited concourses” isn’t going to cut it. Whatever the final arena plan is, it needs to be a big deal for the NHL to consider let alone before the NBA even has some talks (and really, if you’re gonna build it, you might as well go all out and future proof it as much as you can lest we repeat history). 
 

I agree it’s technically doable, but I wouldn’t bet on it. Which is why citizens should be rightfully skeptical of “a potential NBA or NHL team” being a selling point (which, so far, hasn’t been explicitly said). The prudent thing to do would be for this arena to also serve as an extension of a remodeled convention center. But that point is moot if this is truly all private investment. If CL3, Berding, and Whitman want an arena to complement their existing investments they’re free to pursue that. That’s what DeWitt did with the Coliseum back in the 1970s. Which, by the way, also offers an interesting and cautionary tale about “major league” tenants. 

I do not disagree with any of your points. I will always remain optimistic at such propositions  could yield a successful franchise.

 

I will say that despite the lack of a long term tenant for most of its history, the Coliseum project was successful and led to multiple concerts and other events to the city that would otherwise not be there. NCAA Sweet 16, first and second round games, womens final 4, frozen 4, World Skating Championships, etc. would never have come to Cincinnati if the Gardens were the primary venue in the 80s and 90s.  so in that sense, the arena was a big benefit.

A new arena will certainly open up Cincy's chance to compete for these events again in the future, along with other popular championship sports events like gymnastics, skating, etc. A NHL team in my opinion would just be the icing on the cake.   

 

Even if there hockey team though, an NHL team would be much different than the Stingers WHA team from the 70s. At least with an NHL team, you have a proven and stable league. The WHA was an upstart hoping to be acquired by the NHL so it never had the stability and financial footing of the NHL. This would put any NHL team in town on much stronger footing, however, to your point, it is still going to be a challenge because the sport is stagnant at this time. 

 

On a separate note, I did not know DeWitt was the person in charge of the Coliseum, I always thought it was the Heekin family?

From the Business Courier today:

 

Quote

Pureval noted there are other potential arena sites, including on 9.5 acres of new land west of the Duke Energy Convention Center that the city will get when the Brent Spence Bridge project is completed as a result of the project’s footprint being narrowed.

 

I'm assuming that the reclaimed land is large enough that we'd be able to fit a full-fledged arena there without the dreaded "limited concourses"?

 

If the Mayor and City Council actually get ODOT to agree to a Bridge Forward style plan and reclaim all this land on the west side of downtown, they're going to want to get it developed quickly and not have it sitting there vacant for a decade, so they can point to it as a success for their future political endeavors. Putting the arena on that site seems like the best way to guarantee it gets developed in a timely fashion.

If the city wants to pay for the new arena they can put it wherever they want.  We all know that's not going to happen though, so if the FCC owners are going to foot a large part of the bill it's going to end up at the west end spot. 

19 minutes ago, taestell said:

From the Business Courier today:

 

 

I'm assuming that the reclaimed land is large enough that we'd be able to fit a full-fledged arena there without the dreaded "limited concourses"?

 

If the Mayor and City Council actually get ODOT to agree to a Bridge Forward style plan and reclaim all this land on the west side of downtown, they're going to want to get it developed quickly and not have it sitting there vacant for a decade, so they can point to it as a success for their future political endeavors. Putting the arena on that site seems like the best way to guarantee it gets developed in a timely fashion.

I think the Convention Center area is the preferred area for the city to build it. However, that would mean city/county/public ownership. 

If Lindner's want to develop and own it privately, then they will fight for the site by TQL