7 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

If Lindner's want to develop and own it privately, then they will fight for the site by TQL

It also sounds like they don't want to wait for the BSB corridor project to be completed. The city is fast tracking the Central Parkway redesign so that it can be completed when FCC hosts the MLS all-star game in 2026. I have no idea if it's feasible, but I'm curious if Visit Cincy feels the same way about the arena, as it seems like they have a timeline in mind.

Just now, Dev said:

It also sounds like they don't want to wait for the BSB corridor project to be completed. The city is fast tracking the Central Parkway redesign so that it can be completed when FCC hosts the MLS all-star game in 2026. I have no idea if it's feasible, but I'm curious if Visit Cincy feels the same way about the arena, as it seems like they have a timeline in mind.

If such an opportunity for an NHL team were to materialize (not necessarily bringing it here but behind the scenes discussions get serious), then you will see quick movement on such an arena by Lindners. Until that happens, I bet it just continues being talked about for a few more years until the BSB corridor is complete.  Also, I think FCC's highest priority is develping their "soccer village" concept next to TQL. Arena is a high priority to them but I think secondary to their other development right now. 

I like this quote from Long: "I think it’s important for us to make the right move instead of making aggressive moves."

 

I wasn't thrilled with either of the responses for the Town Center site. There are five big projects that are in flux that are going to dramatically change the West End and the west side of downtown and OTR: BSB corridor, Central Parkway redesign, FCC mixed-use redevelopment, Linn St redesign, and the HUD grant for West End. And additionally there's the ongoing conversation about a potential new arena. I think it makes sense to get those designs/projects a bit more fleshed out before deciding what to do with the Town Center site. 

16 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

WNBA is an option.

I suppose the financials have left the chat

There is no realistic scenario in which private ownership pays for the true full cost of a new arena on their own. There would need to be public investment in infrastructure, probably lots of tax breaks/TIF funding/etc. So if the city really wants to put up a fight and say "we want an arena on the reclaimed I-75 land and not at the WCET site" they can absolutely stop it from happening.

14 minutes ago, columbus17 said:

I suppose the financials have left the chat

the most financially profitable function is to have high end concerts and special events like NCAA, World Gymnastics and Figure Skating, conference BBall championships, etc.  Next would be to have a strong professional tenant like NBA or NHL (especially if arena is privately owned).

 

Minor league events like Arena Football, WNBA or professional Volleyball certainly provide programming and events at the arena but they likely do not provide the revenues that would generate the income they are looking for and could detract from creating the availability for higher profitable events. 

 

I'm not convinced this isn't just public posturing from the City. 

Agreeing with @tonyt3524— this statement is remarkably similar to what PJ said before he flipped from 99% likely a no vote (so he said), stadiums aren't a good investment for cities (citing research), etc to 'I'm holding this press conference because NOW I am persuaded'.

8 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

On a separate note, I did not know DeWitt was the person in charge of the Coliseum, I always thought it was the Heekin family?

 

It may have been the Heekins and I was just confusing the two since Dewitt + Heekin owned the team and had originally sought out NHL expansion/a publicly funded arena then pivoted to their own investment + the WHA. 

21 hours ago, tonyt3524 said:

I'm not convinced this isn't just public posturing from the City. 

The arena at 75 thing is more interesting because both John Barrett and the Mayor are hinting at an arena location that can only be in the reclaimed land. 

 

Both of those quotes hinting at the same time is a heck of a coincidence if it is one. But Barretts stuck out at me

 

"Barrett’s vision extends to the rest of the city’s center. He believes a new arena and a convention center should be attached, with parking to support them. He’d like to see them close to Fountain Square.

“We’ve got to make Fountain Square and west more vibrant,” he said."

 

Chris Weitterch tweeted

"Also noteworthy in arena newz today: Western & Southern CEO John Barrett thinks the arena needs to be connected to the convention center, which is a pretty narrow real estate universe."

 

I think there's more here than posturing. 

It makes more sense to build it with the convention center, but will Cincinnati wait that long? I always felt putting an arena at the CET site where the infrastructure really isn't there to support it is like putting a square peg in a round hole, IMO.

Yeah, for all of us wondering how we will fill a full-time tenant to recoup the cost to build it, the answer isn't the NBA or NHL, it's having a top-class arena attached for conventions to use nearly every weekend of the year. It ALSO bolsters the case for spending money to improve our convention center to attract top tier conventions.

How often does an arena actually get used in collaboration with a convention where this is possible? Which cities have their convention centers neighboring arenas, and how often are the two utilized together?

 

I don't know much about the convention business. I imagine it's not very common, but can be a big asset for the larger conventions and could be a selling point for them to come to Cincy over another city. Does anyone have data on this? I bet most conventions that would come to town would have no reason to utilize the arena, so a major tenant is still probably ideal.

51 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

I don't know much about the convention business. I imagine it's not very common

You’re exactly right. I’m familiar with the business and arena use is on the rare side and does not at all justify trying to develop a project to attach an arena to the convention center. Also keep in mind most conventions/events that would be even remotely interested in using such a dual space are very large or once in a decade and Cincy wouldn’t be a likely host city anyway. Cincy has been slow to even build a mid size convention center hotel the last thing it needs to do is burn energy and limited money on attaching an arena to the building lol.

Edited January 15, 20241 yr by 646empire

Unless this BSB plan gets reworked significantly, I don't see how an arena could work on this site. You realistically only have one public entrance (on the east side) with three sides being on-ramps or interstates making it hard for any type of loading dock, etc. The one to left in this pictures is a little better, but not connected to the convention center and still a tough layout.

23 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

How often does an arena actually get used in collaboration with a convention where this is possible? Which cities have their convention centers neighboring arenas, and how often are the two utilized together?

 

I don't know much about the convention business. I imagine it's not very common, but can be a big asset for the larger conventions and could be a selling point for them to come to Cincy over another city. Does anyone have data on this? I bet most conventions that would come to town would have no reason to utilize the arena, so a major tenant is still probably ideal.

Good question but I am pretty sure the Mandalay Bay Covention Center also has a 12k seat arena attached but I honestly don't know if they program it together. I've been to the convention center multiple times but never the arena and not even sure where it's at in relation to the convention center or if they have any business together.

On 1/15/2024 at 11:31 AM, ryanlammi said:

How often does an arena actually get used in collaboration with a convention where this is possible? Which cities have their convention centers neighboring arenas, and how often are the two utilized together?

 

I don't know much about the convention business. I imagine it's not very common, but can be a big asset for the larger conventions and could be a selling point for them to come to Cincy over another city. Does anyone have data on this? I bet most conventions that would come to town would have no reason to utilize the arena, so a major tenant is still probably ideal.

Indy (if you consider Lucas Oil) in indrectly connected to the convention center and the old Hoosier Dome was part of their convention center project. I know Indy leverages both of these facilities for a lot of AAU sports activities (i.e. volleyball/bball tourneys where they convert both the convention center and Lucas Oil into multiple courts). I do not think you get the same leverage with an arena with a smaller court space than a full 100 yard dome stadium.

 

St. Louis convention center connects to their dome stadium (whatever it is named now)

Chicago has an arena connected to McCormick Place. 

Vegas has arenas at some of their casino meeting spaces but Vegas is a completely different animal and really does not provide a good comparison.

 

Many cities have proximity to their arena/stadia from their convention center and you could argue that Nationwide in Columbus fits within this proximity for convention purposes.

 

I think proximity within a few blocks is a good idea, not because you have a ton of conventions that need both facilities, but because you have the leverage of better utilizing the hotel space near the convention centers to also cater to arena space.  

 

Whether they build a new arena by the convention center or the West End, I think you will have the same impact since they are 2 -3 blocks away. 

It may help the Northern end of downtown if you put it near TQL. However, I wonder if an arena on the reclaimed site by the Convention center helps that area build up and develop quicker?

 

Edited January 16, 20241 yr by Brutus_buckeye

23 hours ago, 646empire said:

Also keep in mind most conventions/events that would be even remotely interested in using such a dual space are very large or once in a decade and Cincy wouldn’t be a likely host city anyway

Wouldn't it depend how you would define the use of the dual space? To your point, it is probably rare that you need to have a 20k seat arena set up for a convention however, there would probably be frequent use of the floor space for exhibits, even if the arena seating and concourses would be underutlized. 

I dont know if that is enough justification to connect it to the convention center though.

Arenas and/or stadiums tend to be built adjacent to convention centers not due to the need for the additional space, rather that the country or local convention bureau already owns the land and it makes sense to have a "complex."     I've been in just about every one of these in the country and believe it or not, they tend to be in the smaller, regional cities (Peoria, Augusta, Binghamton, etc).    Seemingly every one of these tertiary markets seems to have one!

 

Arenas and stadiums do not make for useful convention space, unless a large gathering is necessary.   For example a national political convention, some large religious gatherings, or even an evening entertainment event as a part of a larger convention.  

 

10 years ago I would have told Cincinnati to definitely build an arena to get the GOP there, back when Ohio was still a swing state.   I'm not so sure it would pay off the same way now.  

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, tonyt3524 said:

Unless this BSB plan gets reworked significantly, I don't see how an arena could work on this site.

 

 

The circa-2002 plan was going to build a new convention center on a platform above the many I-75 ramps and place the loading docks on the Gest St. side of I-75.  That would mean integrating an access drive most likely with the Gest St. UPS sort facility.  But it could also be done from one of the new overpasses over I-75. 

 

 

 

If the Lindner family wants to build a modern arena and finance it with 85% of his money, I personally dont care where it goes as the taxpayers will not need to build it. If Hard Rock wants to build a 20k seat arena at their site, I am all for it. 

 

The biggest downside to the convention center area is that it means the city is going to build it and own it which means the financing is going to be a bit more of a challenge. 

I think for me it makes sense to build the arena next to the convention center only for it to develop the area West of Fountain Square quicker and more completely, nothing more.

 

I also don't know what would go on reclaimed land on the other side of the convention center, I guess apartments + retail/mixed use?

 

Going north towards TQL I guess you could make the argument too that getting it done in 3 years vs. 8 years then can get better usage of the real estate in between the arena and the revamped convention center?

 

I guess I am kind of in the middle now of where I would prefer the arena to go. I am in the camp like others here that if the Lindners finance most of it, let them put it where they want and let the market decide what to do next to the convention center area when that time comes / BSB is complete.

 

What is the timeline for the BSB area any ways, now?

 

 

I was at Heritage Bank arena this Saturday to see a comedian.  It was sold out.   The lines to get into the arena were very long, everyone standing outside freezing.  Then when it was over, we all stood jammed up in the concourses for 10-15 mins waiting to get out.  It is not only the narrow concourses, but all how everyone has to leave on just one side of the arena, and most people there all end up going over the little bridge and down the stairs.  Everyone just get funneled down too much, rather than being able to exit in all directions.

The whole experience was so frustrating, and honestly, my wife was kind of freaking out a bit when we couldn't get out at the end of the show.   I'll admit, it did feel rather unsafe.  My dad was a fireman, so I am maybe more concerned than most people about not being able to exit a building properly.   At this point I have decided I will never go to another show there in the winter, maybe not in the summer either.

Comparatively, we have been to shows in the Yum center in Louisville and Nationwide arena in Columbus, and had no issues.  Those Arenas are wonderful places to attend events.  Nationwide is especially nice.

 

So I do fully agree we need a new arena.  If some billionaires want to pony up the money for it, great.  But the idea of build a new arena and still having "limited concourses" seems insane.  

There are exits on the east and west sides of the arena.  

 

When people were crushed to death at The Who concert, all of that happened on the west side entrances.  There were no problems on the east side entrances.  And the deaths happened outside the building or right on the doors, not in these supposedly narrow concourses. 

 

Any building anywhere could have a stampede toward the doors.  There is no way for an entire building to be one giant door. 

 

It's like, whenever rich people decide it's time to get public money to build themselves an arena, they're always able to find all sorts of problems with the existing building.  Riverfront Stadium was good enough for 3 Reds World Series Wins, two All-Star Games, and two Bengals Super Bowl Teams, until it suddenly wasn't because it didn't have cup holders. 

 

 

 

It would be super easy for something like that to happen to a new building too. Like everybody has to park in the same lot for some reason one night and some phenomenon occurs that nobody thought about. Sometimes it takes a ton of iterations.

Edited January 18, 20241 yr by GCrites

2 hours ago, JoeHarmon said:

Everyone just get funneled down too much, rather than being able to exit in all directions.

Sounds kind of like trying to exit Paycor after a Bengals game. 

 

52 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

When people were crushed to death at The Who concert, all of that happened on the west side entrances.  There were no problems on the east side entrances. 

I thought the East Side entrances were not built yet, or there was no stairway leading to the east side.  In all fairness, the East side was not as well connected to parking as the West entrance was. The natural flow of traffic naturally led people to go to the West entrance. Similar to Paycor where people flow to the East entrance (most of the parking and Banks sit on that side).  Gainbridge in Indy has a similar setup where everyone funnels to the one side of the facility. 

Heck, even the YUM center in Louisville has a primary entrance and one side is covered by the highway.  

I didn't do a good job explaining.   I realize there are multiple doors that let you exit the arena.   However, once you are outside, you are above street level, on exterior concrete pads that are relatively narrow, with only a few ways down to street level.  The space between the arena and reds stadium is fairly large, so the majority of people end up there.  What happened last Saturday was the concourse inside were jammed with people, those who had gotten outside were also just stuck standing there waiting for everyone in front to clear out.   People started going back into the arena and sitting down to wait for the human traffic jam to clear up.   So the problem is not just with the arena itself, in my humble opinion, but with the way it connects to the street level.  

 

Generally speaking, I have been against the idea of a new arena.  Hard to see the ROI.  I've been going to concerts and whatnot at that arena for about 28 years now, and always thought it was fine.  But after this past weekend, and comparing it with the arena's in other midwest cities, I have to admit it does have its flaws.

It has its flaws is about the nicest thing you can say about Heritage Bank.  That place has been a dump for 30+ years.  There isn't anything redeeming about it, everything is outdated and/or poorly designed.  

A lot of newer arenas have one main designated entrance and HBC should have built something on the end facing GABP years ago. Most people going to the arena park at the banks and walk over so it's not surprising that the majority of the crowd would try to enter on this end. 

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Sounds kind of like trying to exit Paycor after a Bengals game. 

 

I thought the East Side entrances were not built yet, or there was no stairway leading to the east side. 

 

There was a large wooden (pseudo-temporary) staircase that stood for over 20 years until the East Riverfront Garage opened in 1999.  You can kind-of see it on this image from 1993:

 

There were always staircases on the north and south side of the plaza as well, for people walking directly from downtown or directly up from Public Landing.  There was also always a pedestrian connection from the Ohio River bridge - first the Central Bridge.  The same staircase was re-used for the new Taylor-Southgate bridge. 

 

The main plaza entrance was always from the west because Riverfront Stadium was built atop a 3,000 space parking garage, which was the main parking venue for the Coliseum, which never had its own dedicated parking. 

 

 

 

 

I went to a Cyclones game tonight and a grown man wearing a Spider Man costume used the urinal next to me. 

i was in brussels the other day and i found this kid in the urinal next to me!

When my buddy and I regularly went to Cyclones games 2009-2012ish, we always joked about the dumpy condition of the arena (I even worked there for a short while as a part time job (one of the worst I’ve ever had)). There was this one particular, giant water stain on the ceiling above the upper deck in the corner. Every season it was still there without fail. We joked that you could see the Virgin Mary in it and that’s why they wanted to keep it. 

When the place became Heritage Bank Center, they painted the entire ceiling. 

But, perhaps unto us another miracle is occurring—the mother of God returning to warn that the coliseum must stay?

 

Take heed, Jeff Berding.

 

Edited January 30, 20241 yr by Gordon Bombay

Has anyone heard about the Charles Street substation moving?

Becoming a priority I think means a public plan happens within the year imo.

 

Ming 

Berding's so full of crap.  We've been hearing the same invented stadium crisis narrative from the guy since 1995. 

Quote

"We have no time to lose,"

 

Sounds like this will be used as the justification for fast-tracking whatever option the Blue Bloods prefer while minimizing citizen input.

I don't know if the average person here in Columbus could tell you when we had March Madness games.

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

Berding's so full of crap.  We've been hearing the same invented stadium crisis narrative from the guy since 1995. 

 

Yeah because Riverfront Stadium was great 🙄

Look, I'm no fan of Berding but GABP and Paycor are vast improvements over the previous venue.  A new arena will be a vast improvement over HBC. That place is a complete dump.

 

In reality, the owner of the Utah Jazz is probably trying to get the Arizona Coyotes to move to SLC, but there's a pitch to get an NHL expansion team to come to Utah. Cincinnati is waaaaayyyyy down on the list of cities that the NHL would want to expand to but if, and this is a huge if, they expanded to SLC, then they'd want to add an Eastern Conference team to keep things balanced. That that point, Cincinnati might, and I stress might, be in play for NHL.

If SLC, which is a bigger market than Cincy by a small margin but is also isolated without a lot of sattelite markets and very few Fortune 500 companies, can swing a MLS, NBA, NHL and future MLB team then Cincy might be able to do the same. 

 

https://ksltv.com/618480/utah-leaders-ryan-smith-meet-with-nhl-commissioner-on-bringing-a-team-to-utah/

The amount of hate people have for Berding is hilariously stupid when he had nothing to do with the bad stadium deal the county signed.  The county residents voted for the stadium tax and the commissioners are the ones who signed the awful stadium deal.  

7 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

In reality, the owner of the Utah Jazz is probably trying to get the Arizona Coyotes to move to SLC, but there's a pitch to get an NHL expansion team to come to Utah. Cincinnati is waaaaayyyyy down on the list of cities that the NHL would want to expand to but if, and this is a huge if, they expanded to SLC, then they'd want to add an Eastern Conference team to keep things balanced. That that point, Cincinnati might, and I stress might, be in play for NHL.

If SLC, which is a bigger market than Cincy by a small margin but is also isolated without a lot of sattelite markets and very few Fortune 500 companies, can swing a MLS, NBA, NHL and future MLB team then Cincy might be able to do the same. 

 

https://ksltv.com/618480/utah-leaders-ryan-smith-meet-with-nhl-commissioner-on-bringing-a-team-to-utah/

 

 The current Coyotes situation overall is a train wreck.

7 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Cincinnati is waaaaayyyyy down on the list of cities that the NHL would want to expand to

The feeling is definitely mutual. There is very little interest for a NHL team in Cincinnati. Yes the cyclones and hockey as a sport has gotten some good crowds at moments over the years but definitely nowhere near enough public interest for a pro team. Now that we have Pro Soccer the only thing that would hype and gather enough steam in Cincy would be the NBA and that’s not happening.

Edited February 1, 20241 yr by 646empire

Cincinnati Regional Chamber will spearhead new arena study

By Chris Wetterich – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

Feb 1, 2024

Updated Feb 1, 2024 9:36am EST

 

The Cincinnati Regional Chamber will oversee a study of the region potentially building a new arena to replace the Heritage Bank Center, FC Cincinnati co-CEO and Visit Cincy board chair Jeff Berding told the convention and visitors bureau's annual meeting on Jan. 31.

 

"We need a new, modern arena. This year, I'm proud to say we made progress. That effort begins with a study," Berding said. "We have no time to lose."

The study will focus on where the arena could go, how much would it cost, what the return on investment would be, what events could be brought in by a new arena that the region does not get now and what would be the effect of not having a major-league tenant.

 

During his remarks, when Berding noted the major-league tenant issue, he said the region does not have one "yet."

 

MORE

11 hours ago, 646empire said:

The feeling is definitely mutual. There is very little interest for a NHL team in Cincinnati. Yes the cyclones and hockey as a sport has gotten some good crowds at moments over the years but definitely nowhere near enough public interest for a pro team. Now that we have Pro Soccer the only thing that would hype and gather enough steam in Cincy would be the NBA and that’s not happening.

 

Unless you have some info that I don't, usually minor league attendance doesn't play a factor into a league's decision to expand to certain markets. Seattle and Las Vegas didn't have great support for minor league hockey. 

2 hours ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

Cincinnati Regional Chamber will spearhead new arena study

 

Six stakeholders spearheading

Five...Gol-dennnn Rings...

5 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

Unless you have some info that I don't, usually minor league attendance doesn't play a factor into a league's decision to expand to certain markets. Seattle and Las Vegas didn't have great support for minor league hockey. 

Minor League support plays a huge roll especially for mid size cities such as Cincinnati. People have a tendency to compare apples to oranges, Vegas and Seattle have populations, business centers and tourism that are far above and beyond places like Cincy, St Louis, Cleveland, Pitt etc.  which makes their bids for pro teams a lot easier. The perfect example is FC Cincinnati, its minor league support played a GIANT roll in Cincy winning a MLS bid.

27 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Minor League support plays a huge roll especially for mid size cities such as Cincinnati. People have a tendency to compare apples to oranges, Vegas and Seattle have populations, business centers and tourism that are far above and beyond places like Cincy, St Louis, Cleveland, Pitt etc.  which makes their bids for pro teams a lot easier. The perfect example is FC Cincinnati, its minor league support played a GIANT roll in Cincy winning a MLS bid.

 

FC Cincinnati was the exception to the rule. San Diego and St. Louis didn't have great support for soccer. Austin certainly never had good support nor did Minneapolis. What leagues care about are media market size, do you have a stadium plan, and are you willing to pay an expansion fee ($700 million in the case of the Seattle Kraken). Cincinnati is way at the bottom of the list of NHL but it's not because of minor league support, which I'd argue Cincinnati punches above its weight.

43 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Six stakeholders spearheading

Five...Gol-dennnn Rings...

Four proposed locations

Three financing options suggested

Two pro sports league tenant possibilities 

and one arena inevitably built by TQL Stadium

50 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

FC Cincinnati was the exception to the rule. San Diego and St. Louis didn't have great support for soccer. Austin certainly never had good support nor did Minneapolis. What leagues care about are media market size, do you have a stadium plan, and are you willing to pay an expansion fee ($700 million in the case of the Seattle Kraken). Cincinnati is way at the bottom of the list of NHL but it's not because of minor league support, which I'd argue Cincinnati punches above its weight.

I think you’re missing the point and Cincinnati was not the exception to this. Public support via a minor league team or in other ways such as tv viewership, social media engagement etc all matters. Minor league team support is an extremely powerful metric a mid size market can have to gauge the viability of a pro franchise. These leagues have so much market data your mind would be blown. Also you keep referring to Cincinnati being at the bottom of NHLs expansion list I have news for you Cincinnati isn’t on their list and the NHL isn’t on Cincinnati’s want list lol as I said the feeling is very much mutual. The only reason why we are discussing NHL at all is because a NBA team is not happening and Cincinnati wants a new arena and plugging the NHL as a tenant makes it much easier. 

Edited February 1, 20241 yr by 646empire