11 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

The Reds will never leave town not a chance.

I see this a lot and just don’t believe it. Neither the Castellini’s nor MLB actually care. Barring some sudden affinity “to do the right thing,” the Reds will (and probably currently are) look at every option in the medium-long term future. Yeah, they have a stronger history than most clubs and I’d argue that their position in somewhat unique/safer than the other clubs, but let’s not kids ourselves (especially with how Oakland/Tampa are playing out)—IF the league and owners see dollar signs in relocating the Reds and if they don’t have what they see as “a good thing” here, they will do whatever they want to do. 
 

11 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

The Bengals would if the Brown family was not loyal to a fault and making near 50-100 million in profit every year

 

The Brown family isn’t loyal, though, and most certainly “not to a fault.” I get that some fans are happy to see Mike’s influence slipping in favor of Katie’s, but that team had handshake agreements to move to LA and Baltimore in the 90s before getting Paul Brown Stadium. They will absolutely play the “will they/won’t they” game. What’s 50–100 million in profit when you can make even more somewhere else? 

Edited March 17Mar 17 by Gordon Bombay

28 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

I see this a lot and just don’t believe it. Neither the Castellini’s nor MLB actually care. Barring some sudden affinity “to do the right thing,” the Reds will (and probably currently are) look at every option in the medium-long term future. Yeah, they have a stronger history than most clubs and I’d argue that their position in somewhat unique/safer than the other clubs, but let’s not kids ourselves (especially with how Oakland/Tampa are playing out)—IF the league and owners see dollar signs in relocating the Reds and if they don’t have what they see as “a good thing” here, they will do whatever they want to do. 
 

 

The Brown family isn’t loyal, though, and most certainly “not to a fault.” I get that some fans are happy to see Mike’s influence slipping in favor of Katie’s, but that team had handshake agreements to move to LA and Baltimore in the 90s before getting Paul Brown Stadium. They will absolutely play the “will they/won’t they” game. What’s 50–100 million in profit when you can make even more somewhere else? 

Oh Mike Brown absolutely had a agreement in place with Baltimore to move the team in place pending the sales tax voting passing Hamilton County.Even with the one sided agreement with Hamilton County Baltimore was still going to pay the Bengals 15-20 million more per year than the Hamilton County lease did.

 

Yes the Brown family is loyal to Cincinnati almost to their own detriment.If you understand the Brown family and it's history you can see why.The family was basically cheated out of a partial ownership stake of the Cleveland Browns.Paul Brown was run out of Cleveland by a PR campaign from Art Modell.The family has had roots in Cincinnati since the 1960's.It is a conservative frugal family that counted a few million in profits a season for over a decade to buy out any and all partnerships the team had to own the entire team.If the Bengals can be as profitable as they are now there is near zero chance they would relocate.They want to be in the city and not the suburbs as well.

 

The Reds relocating? Still one in a thousands chance but I guess more possible with the waning profits of MLB and the rising costs compared to the NFL.Lot more teams would have to fold  and or relocate before the Reds would be up.

Edited March 17Mar 17 by ucnum1

14 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

I see this a lot and just don’t believe it. Neither the Castellini’s nor MLB actually care. Barring some sudden affinity “to do the right thing,” the Reds will (and probably currently are) look at every option in the medium-long term future. Yeah, they have a stronger history than most clubs and I’d argue that their position in somewhat unique/safer than the other clubs, but let’s not kids ourselves (especially with how Oakland/Tampa are playing out)—IF the league and owners see dollar signs in relocating the Reds and if they don’t have what they see as “a good thing” here, they will do whatever they want to do. 

 

I think a lot of people are blind to the fact that we're going to have another stadium fight with the Reds sooner rather than later. I don't think they'll want a new ballpark but big renovations. Currently there are real stadium plans in Salt Lake City (900 million from the state already allocated), and Nashville. Portland has the land acquired IIRC and Orlando is trying to poach the Rays. Charlotte has also had some on and off talks of getting an MLB team. The Reds are 100% going to use that as leverage as there is a greater chance of an MLB team relocating than an NFL team.

 

17 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

The Brown family isn’t loyal, though, and most certainly “not to a fault.” I get that some fans are happy to see Mike’s influence slipping in favor of Katie’s, but that team had handshake agreements to move to LA and Baltimore in the 90s before getting Paul Brown Stadium. They will absolutely play the “will they/won’t they” game. What’s 50–100 million in profit when you can make even more somewhere else? 

 

The Brown family could make so much more money in another market. I'm a Bengals fan but I'd help them pack.

The 3Cs are all now very close to bumping up against the state-maximum 8% sales tax.

There just are not that many markets left that are superior to what the Reds have and  draw people from.3 state 300 mile radius being a historical franchise has it perks.

 

Honestly zero markets left offer from what the Reds current market is.The Reds even when the suck which is quite often still draw a minimum of 1.5 million fans a season.I guess Nashville could be a fit but Salt Lake City or Portland isolated metro areas no way 

if the Reds and Bengals leave town, Cincinnati will need a new arena even more. after the two stadiums are razed the banks will become an even larger front yard for the city. I'm thinking pink flamingos.

Cincinnatians care more about the Reds than 75% of cities with MLB. It would be like when they took the hockey teams out of Canada and put them in the South.

10 minutes ago, GCrites said:

Cincinnatians care more about the Reds than 75% of cities with MLB. It would be like when they took the hockey teams out of Canada and put them in the South.

People don't really understand how large of a market and area Reds baseball is it has fans in.150 years of baseball in the same city will do that.The Reds Caravan is unique to the franchise as well.

 

This franchise has been around in its current form since 1881.Yes I know the Reds first team was in 1869 that team is now the Atlanta Braves.

 

 

when everyone lives in apartment blocks, the streets are narrowed, and no one can afford EVs, expensive sports like baseball will drift into obscurity. a kid only needs a ball for soccer and soccer already fills every game at FCC. Some how I still see everyone blaming Cranley.

1 hour ago, GCrites said:

Cincinnatians care more about the Reds than 75% of cities with MLB. It would be like when they took the hockey teams out of Canada and put them in the South.

 

And yet Winnipeg got a lucky steal and Quebec is still waiting for a call from the NHL. Team history/local fandom/parades — it means so little when it comes to these owners and leagues. Hell, that league is looking to do Atlanta a THIRD time and they're holding out hopes on a return to Phoenix.

 

1 hour ago, ucnum1 said:

There just are not that many markets left that are superior to what the Reds have

 

Portland, Nashville, Charlotte, Orlando, Salt Lake City — all with active groups looking for an MLB team whether via relocation or expansion.

 

1 hour ago, ucnum1 said:

If you understand the Brown family and it's history

 

I truly respect your passion for the local team, but see, I do understand that history and that's exactly why I believe neither I, nor you, should trust them. The Modell/Paul Brown story is ancient history at this point and Mike hasn't once cared about his father's legacy (as already pointed out, he was ready to move the Bengals twice). If folks think The Brown Family is going to stay here (should they not get a deal that's amenable to them), they're drinking too many $18 Paycor Stadium "premium" beers while reminiscing about the freezer bowl on Facebook.

 

- - -

 

Just to be clear: I am a big fan of all of our local teams. I'm not advocating for these teams to move, nor do I think they have any immediate plans to do so, etc. However, what I am saying is—they are going to do what's in the owner and league's best financial interest regardless of local history, sentiment, or warm memories from locals.

 

I don't like it.

I don't agree with it.

But I've covered this kind of stuff for a long time and it's rare to see these situations resolved with any sort of overarching integrity from the folks who stand to profit the most. 

 

All that being said, I agree with you @JaceTheAce41—the Reds are an interesting part of this. In the past, they've been better partners with the County than the Bengals (have financed several of their own upgrades, utilized County programs to reduce costs, etc.), but I imagine they don't want to be left out of this either.

 

What would be interesting is seeing some sort of collective, civic agreement come together that supports three venues (maintaining the existing GABP and PBS, assisting with an arena). Maybe it's region-wide, maybe it's wishful thinking, but securing three venues with a future path forward would seem to make sense. Especially if you involve the Convention Center/an arena over there.

 

I don't know, maybe that's too wishful of thinking in this political reality (we should fund schools ffs, not stadiums) and besides, the guy pushing all this clearly has a preferred site. 

 

 

Edited March 17Mar 17 by Gordon Bombay

14 minutes ago, RJohnson said:

when everyone lives in apartment blocks, the streets are narrowed, and no one can afford EVs, expensive sports like baseball will drift into obscurity. a kid only needs a ball for soccer and soccer already fills every game at FCC. Some how I still see everyone blaming Cranley.

 

I blame, Fauci, personally. 

4 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

I blame, Fauci, personally. 

well you probably know more about this than me. any insights or nuggets you can share.

Portland, Nashville, Charlotte, Orlando, Salt Lake City — all with active groups looking for an MLB team whether via relocation or expansion.

 

None of those markets mentioned above offer  anything that the Cincinnati Reds now  have except perhaps Nashville.

 

Portland,Salt Lake City, Orlando ,Charlotte have little to zero baseball history with proven attendence metrics to entice a established franchise to relocate.

 

Possibly Nashville would cause the least amount of market disruption but what is the point in moving a established team and market for almost the same thing.

Edited March 17Mar 17 by ucnum1

5 hours ago, ucnum1 said:

None of those markets mentioned above offer  anything that the Cincinnati Reds now  have except perhaps Nashville.

 

Uh... they're either all bigger markets (or markets growing faster than Cincinnati) and are all working to lure a franchise via stadium plans that would undoubtedly produce a more modern, luxurious, and profitable venue than the 22-year old Great American Ballpark in small market Cincinnati. As @JaceTheAce41 pointed out: The State of Utah even has $900M already earmarked for a stadium.

 

Oh, and let's not forget... the Reds have actively, multiple times in their history, considered relocation. 

 

Again, not saying they would move, but the anecdotal experience of locals who weeped when Pete Rose died doesn't mean anything to Rob Manfred, MLB, or the Castellini's if there's a chance to make money. 

 

The Point Is: Even THE Cincinnati Reds, with all of their history and local pride—are going to want incentives to stay at GABP for the long term. Maybe they're not as demanding as The Bengals, maybe they don't need the same amount of money as a new arena, but it is foolish to believe that they'd just stay on principle alone. The Reds and their stadium will absolutely be part of any conversation regarding Hamilton County funding.

Edited March 18Mar 18 by Gordon Bombay

18 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

Uh... they're all bigger markets, lacking a team, and are working to lure a franchise via stadium plans that would undoubtedly be more modern, luxurious, and revenue generating than the 22 year old Great American Ballpark in small market Cincinnati.

 

Oh, and let's not forget... the Reds have actively, multiple times in their history, considered relocation over the decades. 

 

Again, not saying they would move, but the anecdotal experience of locals who weeped when Pete Rose died doesn't mean anything to Rob Manfred, MLB, or the Castellini's if there's a chance to make money. 

Again those markets are not larger than the current the Cincinnati Reds market.The Reds draw from at least a 300 miles radius and there are a lot more people in that radius than any of the listed above besides Nashville.Which is a overlapping market for the Reds

 

Portland and Salt Lake City are much smaller markets that are quite isolated metro areas.

 

Utah and the Mormons sure have some faith I will give them that.A metro area of 1.2 million about half Mormons.With about 4 million people within a 300 miles radius trying to get a major league team must have that.

 

Cincinnati has around 35 million people at 300 miles by that same standard.

Edited March 18Mar 18 by ucnum1

15 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

The Reds draw from at least a 300 miles radius and their are a lot more people in that radius than any of the listed above besides Nashville.Which is a overlapping market for the Reds

 

Bud, you can decline to use a space after a period, but you can't just define a market by pulling numbers out of thin air. The attached screenshot shows a 300 mile radius around Cincinnati. 

If the Reds were really drawing a significant number of fans from your arbitrary zone, you'd think the club wouldn't regularly be at the lower end of the attendance table. The Tigers, Pirates, Guardians, Cubs, White Sox, and even the Cardinals would probably take issue with your market size.

The "Reds Caravan" and the "Reds Radio Network" is not/was not WGN or TBS. 

 

 

I love the Reds, but no team is safe when it comes to these leagues and these owners—and fans/taxpayers alike should be keenly aware of that as any funding discussions move forward.

Edited March 18Mar 18 by Gordon Bombay

Again the Reds regularly draw league average attendance historically for the 28th smallest metro areas  out of 30 mlb markets.

 

1 season in the last 40 below 1.5 million.

 

The Reds market is drastically larger than Greater Cincinnati.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CIN/attend.shtml

What a tired conversation, Folks the Cincinnati Reds are not leaving, please stop it. Cincinnati isn’t about to lose its NFL Team either. Cincinnati isn’t Oakland, Tampa, St Louis blah blah blah and so on, circumstances very in all these markets. Both the Bengals and Reds are going to get some level of stadium investments from Cincy this next “stadium round” that will keep them until 2040/2045 or so there for to already be speculating about a 2050 or so departure is just silly, move on.

Edited March 18Mar 18 by 646empire

11 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Cincinnati isn’t Oakland, Tampa, St Louis

 

And those cities thought they weren't Winnipeg, Quebec, Hartford, Baltimore, Cleveland, etc. etc. etc. 

 

To bring it back to the arena and topic at hand: All I'm saying is that both the Reds and Bengals will be watching any County involvement in a potential arena plan very, very closely and neither organization's ownership is above what other leagues/owners have pulled in the recent past. 

Edited March 18Mar 18 by Gordon Bombay

1 minute ago, 646empire said:

What a tired conversation, Folks the Cincinnati Reds are not leaving, please stop it. Cincinnati isn’t about to lose its NFL Team either. Cincinnati isn’t Oakland, Tampa, St Louis blah blah blah and so on. Both the Bengals and Reds are going to get some level of stadium investments from Cincy this next “stadium round” that will keep them until 2040/2045 or so there for to already be speculating about a 2050 or so departure is just silly, move on.

If major league baseball itself keeps on losing market share to the other sports  and TV revenue continues to be stagnant or even decrease.Yes it very possible more than a few teams will be contracted for the league to stay alfloat.It almost came to fruition not so long ago. The Reds are not one of those teams.  

7 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

And those cities thought they weren't Winnipeg, Quebec, Hartford, Baltimore, Cleveland, etc. etc. etc. 

 

To bring it back to the arena and topic at hand: All I'm saying is that both the Reds and Bengals will be watching any County involvement in a potential arena plan very, very closely and neither organization's ownership is above what other leagues/owners have pulled in the recent past. 

Slim to zero chances a new arena will be getting any Hamilton County sales tax funding.

The stadium .01 sales tax has no sunshine date to it and it will be used to fund these next round of stadium upgrades well into the 2040s before it is paid off.

 

I could see a ballot issue going up after the Reds and Bengals leases are finalized to sunshine the sales tax though.

4 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

And all those cities thought they weren't Winnipeg, Quebec, Hartford, Baltimore, Cleveland, etc. etc. etc. 

 

I can tell you flat out none of these places are that of Cincinnati, Cincys connection and public sentiment is unique particularly when it come to the reds. The Reds leaving is highlyyyyyyy unlikely. The Cincinnati Region would very much respond with a “over our dead bodies”, a renovation/new stadium or sell keeping the team in Cincy would certainly be in order far before a reds move.
 

As I said this convo is silly. Back to the Arena.

7 minutes ago, 646empire said:

 

I can tell you flat out none of these places are that of Cincinnati, Cincys connection and public sentiment is unique particularly when it come to the reds. The Reds leaving is highlyyyyyyy unlikely. The Cincinnati Region would very much respond with a “over our dead bodies”, a renovation/new stadium or sell keeping the team in Cincy would certainly be in order far before a reds move.
 

As I said this convo is silly. Back to the Arena.

The Reds have give or take 25 owners with voting shares in the team as well.It is not like Bob or Phil Castellini can just decide to move the franchise without the other owners consent.Also FWIW most of the other Reds owners have generational family roots in Cincinnati.

 

I am pretty sure the Castellini's own about 30% of the Reds.

Edited March 18Mar 18 by ucnum1

1 hour ago, Gordon Bombay said:

To bring it back to the arena and topic at hand: All I'm saying is that both the Reds and Bengals will be watching any County involvement in a potential arena plan very, very closely and neither organization's ownership is above what other leagues/owners have pulled in the recent past. 

Yep, and watching soon turns into wanting.. Anything can happen - it’s only natural to expect the Reds and Bengals to ask for the same, if not much more.

Edited March 18Mar 18 by Clefan98

No offense given but for a region with arguably the best pro football history there is Could Cleveland pro football  have gotten 2 worse owners than Art Modell and now the Haslam family?

27 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

No offense given but for a region with arguably the best pro football history there is Could Cleveland pro football  have gotten 2 worse owners than Art Modell and now the Haslam family?

 

The exact same could said (maybe soon?) of current and previous Reds' ownership.

Edited March 18Mar 18 by Clefan98

4 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

 

Looking inwards, the exact same could be said for current and previous Reds' ownership.

Marge Schott was the only aggresiously horrible owner the Reds have had and she at least won.The Haslams and Art Models of the world have taken and tried to take your football team out of town beside losing and a lot.

Modell never got a Super Bowl but the team was competitive and never a laughing stock under his ownership like it has become since ‘99.

17 hours ago, ucnum1 said:

There just are not that many markets left that are superior to what the Reds have and  draw people from.3 state 300 mile radius being a historical franchise has it perks.

 

Honestly zero markets left offer from what the Reds current market is.The Reds even when the suck which is quite often still draw a minimum of 1.5 million fans a season.I guess Nashville could be a fit but Salt Lake City or Portland isolated metro areas no way 

You don't just go by a simple radius. Look at media markets:

 

Three smallest MLB markets:

 

37 Cincinnati

38 Milwaukee

40 Las Vegas

 

Markets without teams:

 

15 Orlando

20 Sacramento

21 Charlotte

22 Raleigh

23 Portland

25 Indianapolis

26 Nashville

28 Salt Lake City

31 San Antonio

32 Hartford

34 Austin

35 Columbus

36 Greenville, SC

^that would make sense for broadcast television, but now that everything is on cable/streaming, wouldn't the size of whatever your cable/streaming home territory matter more?

 

 

https://www.mlb.com/press-release/fanduel-sports-network-expands-access-for-reds-fans#:~:text=REDS REGIONAL TV TERRITORY,-Reds regional TV&text=Reds telecasts are available in,the FanDuel Sports Network app.

 

apparently this is the 2019 map- 

This conversation is wayy off and a waste of time hoping the mods can put back in place.

Back to the topic at hand...

Arena advocacy group launches petition, doesn't share financial backers

 

Sydney Franklin

Cincinnati Enquirer

 

A group pushing to use the county sales tax to build a new arena in Cincinnati revealed several endorsements Tuesday – but has refused to say who is financially backing the effort.

 

According to a press release obtained early by The Enquirer, Cincinnati City Councilmembers Meeka Owens and Seth Walsh, as well as former mayor John Cranley support the Hamilton County Growth Alliance's work to replace the 50-year-old Heritage Bank Center with a state-of-the-art arena. Former city councilmember Chris Bortz and community activist Ozie Davis, who is an employee of the alliance, also back the group's plans.

 

Is there an ability to create a regional tax for these improvements?? Butler, Warren, and Clermont County should foot the bill in some way also.

 

Can a cross state area create a taxing district? Obviously all of the NKY counties make a ton of money off of these teams. Maybe not a sales tax but hotel room tax or something. Just makes too much sense. 
 

There isn’t enough stadium tax money to go around is there? With the Bengals wanting about a billion, nearly a billion for the arena and who knows what the Reds will be asking for. I don’t see how you can do all of this with the current tax.

The sales tax alone isn't going to pay for all those things.  There will be state money and also money from the teams/arena owners.  That will be $500+ million if not closer to $1 billion, but I still doubt the current tax can pay for all the rest.  There will likely need to be some new source of funds for the arena since the sales tax is for the Reds and Bengals stadiums.  This has been alluded to but no one has thrown out any concrete ideas yet. 

3 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

This has been alluded to but no one has thrown out any concrete ideas yet. 

print more money?

Hamilton County commissioners blast secretive arena campaign: ‘I don’t get bullied’

 

A new group led by a longtime political consultant is attempting to persuade Hamilton County commissioners to use the existing 0.5% stadium tax to help pay for a new downtown arena.

 

And two of the three commissioners are not impressed.

 

The nonprofit group, which calls itself the Hamilton County Growth Alliance, is led by political consultant Jay Kincaid, who previously worked as former Mayor John Cranley’s chief political aide and chief of staff. The organization plans to run paid media soon urging that at least part of the tax revenue be used for a new arena, as well as a petition.

 

Kincaid argues that the sales tax should not be spent entirely on the existing stadiums and that a new arena could bring more and better concerts and sports events, such as the NCAA tournaments.

 

Under the federal tax code governing the group, it does not have to disclose its donors, and Kincaid has thus far declined to do so.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2025/03/20/hamilton-county-commissioners-arena-campaign.html

 

16 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

Under the federal tax code governing the group, it does not have to disclose its donors, and Kincaid has thus far declined to do so.

The Department of Education is going away and this guy and his friends think we need to fund an arena because he hasn’t seen Bruce Springsteen enough. 

Google is telling me he's a self-proclaimed "political junkie and father of twins."  What more do you need to know?

 

 

He was "Cranley's bulldog", serving as his Campaign Manager and Chief of Staff. Had the "pleasure" of interacting with him on social media a few times, and he's a real nasty dude.

Is Kincaid the guy that the local paper kept putting on a pedestal as the next wunderkind in political campaigning?

Most likely. Here's him declaring the streetcar a failure in December 2016:

 

Sporting chance

With three major league teams and ambitions for a new arena, Cincinnati looks to build on its athletic assets

expand

By Brian Planalp – Staff reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Apr 3, 2025

Updated Apr 3, 2025 8:07pm EDT

 

Conversations around a new arena to replace Heritage Bank Center in Cincinnati’s urban core appear to have entered a new phase in 2025.

 

No longer do decision makers need to be convinced a new arena is necessary; there’s widespread agreement it is. Now opinions are being formed, ideas considered, judgments weighed and differences teased out of opposing views.

 

It’s the first quarter of the Super Bowl, and it’s a game of field position.

 

MORE

So much arena talk this past year.  Not mentioned in the roundtable was the Bengals threatening to leave Cincinnati.  We aren't going to have the funds to finance an arena and whatever final negotiated agreement we come to with the Bengals.  It's one or the other.  The arena will have to be privately-funded.  If Nederlander won't, then it will go to the West-End with the Lindner group's plan.

Edited April 4Apr 4 by 10albersa

They never "threatened" to leave. It's a clickbait inflammatory article.

2 hours ago, 10albersa said:

So much arena talk this past year.  Not mentioned in the roundtable was the Bengals threatening to leave Cincinnati.  We aren't going to have the funds to finance an arena and whatever final negotiated agreement we come to with the Bengals.  It's one or the other.  The arena will have to be privately-funded.  If Nederlander won't, then it will go to the West-End with the Lindner group's plan.

The "funds" to fiance the Bengals and Reds stadiums will always be the county sales with no sunshine date attached to it.I think the bond payments end in 2042 fwiw so it will not be voted on to end it before then.

 

The new arena is going to be private money TIF districts city/county infrastructure funding and the port of Cincinnati. They all will get done.

I can't wait for the various parties to exploit the Great Flood of '25 just like how they exploited the Great Flood of 1997.  Riverfront Stadium HAD to be torn down due to DETERIORATING CONCRETE thanx to fluvial caprices.  

 

Can't wait to see Coliseum concrete deterioration encircled by orange spray paint and Aftab out there saying there is absolutely no way to fix it and we need to sell the railroad to build a replacement.   

Riverfront Stadium became obsolete for baseball as soon as Camden Park opened in Baltimore. That was a dreadnought moment for baseball and sports facilities and while I have my fair share of nostalgia for that place, GABP and Paycor are both lightyears better than Riverfront. Both teams would have wanted new stadiums (and IIRC the stadium talk started in the early 1990s) regardless of the 1997 flood. Now, instead of a bland cookie cutter stadium that looks like every other cookie cutter stadium sitting in a sea of parking, we have 2 newish stadiums that are much better, a world-class museum that commemorates the Underground Railroad and the struggle for freedom, a very nice music venue, apartments, hotels, offices, and businesses. Even without the Banks being finished and even with HBC being a dump, the whole area is a vast improvement from what it was before. But of course, you'll complain about it for reasons?

 

HBC has weathered a few floods in its lifetime and was built with that in mind. We could use a new arena for other reason other than potential flood damage but sure, go off.

I went to a cyclones game the other day and let me just say, the arena was fine. The concourses could be wider with more room for queueing for sure, but the bathrooms are fine and so is the interior environment of the arena. FCC's TQL stadium is the newest sports venue in town, and you know what it has? A concourse level that has narrow spaces, exposed concrete and a few pinch points, specifically on the west side where it winds around and through the club area. It also has exposed concrete bathrooms with american standard fixtures. You know what Heritage bank arena bathrooms have? Terrazzo floors with concrete walls and american standard fixtures. 

 

Sitting there looking at the huge steel structure and all the concrete and all the materials it just feels so incredibly wasteful to say "lets just build a new one" when we have a perfectly good structure where it is. Similar to how I feel about the Bengal's at Paycor, renovating what we have is a better and more financially and environmentally sustainable option. 

A venue that is hermetically sealed from the outside, on that piece of real estate, is a waste of a good resource. The river means something completely different to the city than it did in the 60s/70s. Get rid of the last vestige of that indifference and put something there that embraces the city and the river.