8 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Sitting there looking at the huge steel structure and all the concrete and all the materials it just feels so incredibly wasteful to say "lets just build a new one" when we have a perfectly good structure where it is. Similar to how I feel about the Bengal's at Paycor, renovating what we have is a better and more financially and environmentally sustainable option. 

Wasted money. Americans don't seem to care about wasted money. How many times in the last 10 years have you seen one person in a giant SUV or 1 person in a 4-door 1500,2500,3500 ton truck? How often have you driven around the county and noticed the sizes of homes and yards? I would say "gardens," but none grow much more than grass. So yards. Most need lawn-care services. How many parents spend tons of money on private schools? One school system is much more economical, and you get to meet people who may be different or not. Nothing like difference to educate. 

 

On 4/4/2025 at 2:30 PM, ucnum1 said:

The new arena is going to be private money TIF districts city/county infrastructure funding and the port of Cincinnati. They all will get done.

This is a nice attitude. If, by chance, a new arena is built, it shouldn't be on the river. I've never been in the current arena, but it seems we don't get tournament games or national events now. The less money the lower classes are taxed, the better off we all are. There are possibly more Dollar Stores in Hamilton County than McDonald's. In the long run, Cincy will need a new arena. Are 60 years too long for an arena to last? I don't know, but some people are willing to bank it. The corner of CP and Liberty has changed dramatically since the new FCC stadium was built. And it seems those changes will continue around OTR North of Liberty. If the new arena is built, it will entice people to invest more south of the site and along CP. 

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

I went to a cyclones game the other day and let me just say, the arena was fine. The concourses could be wider with more room for queueing for sure, but the bathrooms are fine and so is the interior environment of the arena. FCC's TQL stadium is the newest sports venue in town, and you know what it has? A concourse level that has narrow spaces, exposed concrete and a few pinch points, specifically on the west side where it winds around and through the club area. It also has exposed concrete bathrooms with american standard fixtures. You know what Heritage bank arena bathrooms have? Terrazzo floors with concrete walls and american standard fixtures. 

 

Sitting there looking at the huge steel structure and all the concrete and all the materials it just feels so incredibly wasteful to say "lets just build a new one" when we have a perfectly good structure where it is. Similar to how I feel about the Bengal's at Paycor, renovating what we have is a better and more financially and environmentally sustainable option. 

I'm not sure what the point is comparing an outdoor stadium to an indoor arena.  They are two completely different things. The fact the indoor arena has comparable conditions to an outdoor stadium is just showing how s**tty a place Heritage Bank Center truly is.  

 

The current owners 10 years ago put out renderings of a new arena in the current spot.  Even back then they said it was cheaper and easier to tear the entire current thing down and start new then try to renovate.  It doesn't matter to me where a new arena goes, but if it stays in the current location they are going to re-use very little of the current infrastructure.  

7 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Riverfront Stadium became obsolete for baseball as soon as Camden Park opened in Baltimore.

 

No.  The multi-purpose stadiums became obsolete when team owners gained enough leverage to force cities to build them separate stadiums - stadiums where they would not have to compromise with other tenants regarding luxury box revenue and other conflict points.  They also could not be undermined by a collusion between their own minority owners and other stadium tenants, as happened to The Browns ownership when The Indians moved to their own place.  Suddenly Art Modell was stuck maintaining the old stadium that he owned without any revenue from a major tenant.  The tenants of the publicly-owned multi-purpose stadiums made sure that they both got new stadiums at the same time so that one wouldn't get stuck with an older venue + both new venues were set up so that 30 years later they'd be renegotiating leases at the same time in order to turn the screw as tightly as possible on the public once more.  

 

 

 

Leaders: Sense of urgency ramps up around need for new downtown arena

By Brian Planalp – Staff reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Apr 8, 2025

 

The following is supplemental coverage of the Courier’s April 4 weekly cover story, “Sporting chance,” in which a panel of four local leaders discussed the importance of the region’s sports assets and the development opportunities around them.

 

The discussion was the centerpiece of the Business Courier’s annual Commercial Real Estate Developers Power Breakfast, held April 1.

 

Jim Moehring, owner of downtown’s Holy Grail Tavern & Grille, estimated nearly 20% of his revenue comes from Heritage Bank Center attendees. He said it’s an essential lifeline during the slower winter months.

 

Asked what would be most helpful for his business, he replied, “First and foremost, keeping the arena at the Banks.”

Whether that will happen, no one can say.

 

The Cincinnati Regional Chamber last November released a study claiming the replacement arena will cost up to $800 million. It picked two preferred sites in the urban core: west of the Duke Energy Convention Center on land made available at some future time from the Brent Spence Bridge project; and the current Town Center Garage complex in the West End, which includes WCET’s headquarters.

 

MORE

If only some preliminary rederings of an arena on the HBC site were already done, showing that an expanded and upgraded arena is possible on that site. 

So the guy with the bar at The Banks wants the arena to stay down by The Banks? Why should we care about this guys opinion on the arena?

16 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

I'm not sure what the point is comparing an outdoor stadium to an indoor arena.  They are two completely different things. The fact the indoor arena has comparable conditions to an outdoor stadium is just showing how s**tty a place Heritage Bank Center truly is.  

 

The current owners 10 years ago put out renderings of a new arena in the current spot.  Even back then they said it was cheaper and easier to tear the entire current thing down and start new then try to renovate.  It doesn't matter to me where a new arena goes, but if it stays in the current location they are going to re-use very little of the current infrastructure.  

I guess my point is that I'm cynical that any arena built by one of the local ownership groups will actually be that nice. The city and/or state will spend millions in taxpayer money and we will still end up with a product maybe slightly better than what exists, with some nicer A/V technology to distract from the fact that you're in an arena surprisingly similar to the one we already had. This is especially true if it goes to the west end site which doesn't have the space for wider concourses which is the main complaint of the current arena. 

 

As for "cheaper and easier to tear down", I hear that s**t all the time and it drives me nuts. It would be cheaper and easier to tear down Alms & Doepke than convert it to residential to use a current project example. (Obviously won't happen in that case because thank god for historic districts and sane people). It has multiple structural types, deep floor plates and old multi-wythe masonry walls without modern insulation and vapor barriers. Contractors and architects are lazy (I am one so I think I can say this) and it's easier to design with a blank sheet of paper and it's easier to estimate cost with a blank spreadsheet. Renovations are complicated and messy so everyone involved just says "well it's cheaper and easier to knock down and start over" but those numbers never really get compared apples to apples and nobody ever really talks about the inherent value in what exists, from the material value, the embodied carbon, the embodied labor which is hard to replicate or whatever else. Because the key is actually on the word "easier" and not the word "cheaper" and people in this industry are afraid of risk, afraid of liability and want the easiest path, which is always new construction. Its wasteful and stupid to tear down a functional arena when so much infrastructure, from flood proofing to parking to pedestrian walkways and concourses to the structure of the arena itself already exists. 

3 minutes ago, anusthemenace said:

So the guy with the bar at The Banks wants the arena to stay down by The Banks? Why should we care about this guys opinion on the arena?

It's indicative of the fact that the infrastructure, including bars and restaurants like his, already exist in this area. The Banks was purpose built, for better and worse, to support events at the stadiums and arena, so his point is why would we move it somewhere else? 

50 minutes ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

Jim Moehring, owner of downtown’s Holy Grail Tavern & Grille, estimated nearly 20% of his revenue comes from Heritage Bank Center attendees. He said it’s an essential lifeline during the slower winter months.

If I owned a thriving business on the Ohio River in possibly the premier location at the Banks, I would want more money, too. Moehring is within a stone's throw of The Reds, The Bengals, the Underground Railroad Museum, The once called Icon, The front lawn of the City and Apartment blocks on both sides of Ft. Washington Way. Not to mention out-of-town tourists who may stay in the hotel a block away. After the New Year's celebration, many, if not all, businesses have a slow period.

Personally, I think the Heritage sits on top of a Gordian Knot of roads that can only exacerbate traffic. Solve the traffic problem before you build another building on top of it. 

38 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

so his point is why would we move it somewhere else? 

True, but why use an arena as an anchor tenant for the still yet-to-be fully realized Banks when we can use taxpayer money to build an arena near Jeff Berding’s other developments and build another Banks.
 

You guys need to start thinking less about the citizens and more about lobbyists. Yeah, they still can’t point to one touring musical act (or any real event) who declined visiting Cincinnati due to HBC’s supposedly decrepit state, but Jay Kincaid had to go to Pittsburgh to see “Bruce Springsteen” (because “The Boss” is John Cranley).

Edited April 8Apr 8 by Gordon Bombay

20 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I guess my point is that I'm cynical that any arena built by one of the local ownership groups will actually be that nice. The city and/or state will spend millions in taxpayer money and we will still end up with a product maybe slightly better than what exists, with some nicer A/V technology to distract from the fact that you're in an arena surprisingly similar to the one we already had. This is especially true if it goes to the west end site which doesn't have the space for wider concourses which is the main complaint of the current arena. 

 

As for "cheaper and easier to tear down", I hear that s**t all the time and it drives me nuts. It would be cheaper and easier to tear down Alms & Doepke than convert it to residential to use a current project example. (Obviously won't happen in that case because thank god for historic districts and sane people). It has multiple structural types, deep floor plates and old multi-wythe masonry walls without modern insulation and vapor barriers. Contractors and architects are lazy (I am one so I think I can say this) and it's easier to design with a blank sheet of paper and it's easier to estimate cost with a blank spreadsheet. Renovations are complicated and messy so everyone involved just says "well it's cheaper and easier to knock down and start over" but those numbers never really get compared apples to apples and nobody ever really talks about the inherent value in what exists, from the material value, the embodied carbon, the embodied labor which is hard to replicate or whatever else. Because the key is actually on the word "easier" and not the word "cheaper" and people in this industry are afraid of risk, afraid of liability and want the easiest path, which is always new construction. Its wasteful and stupid to tear down a functional arena when so much infrastructure, from flood proofing to parking to pedestrian walkways and concourses to the structure of the arena itself already exists. 

I legitimately question if you've been in any arenas if you actually think this.  Anything built this century is the Taj Mahal compared to Heritage Bank.  

45 minutes ago, anusthemenace said:

Why should we care about this guys opinion on the arena?

Because he has a longstanding business on the line that’s stuck with downtown for years despite the various challenges (you know, the kinds of things these arenas are supposed to “spur”). 
 

I’d take his opinion over these local lobbyists who keep saying “March Madness” when they really mean “An early round of the March Madness tournament and not the actual Final Four (played in football stadiums now) that we keep trying to imply.”

Quote

I legitimately question if you've been in any arenas if you actually think this.  Anything built this century is the Taj Mahal compared to Heritage Bank.  

I went to Rupp arena and 5/3 bank center this year, both are great venues that have had great renovations recently. But I'm not sitting in a club level so honestly it didn't effect my experience in any meaningful way compared to my experience at the Cyclones game. The things that were noticeably nicer, like new finishes, acoustic panels, the jumbotron, the audio system, etc are all things that would be included in a renovation anyway. I guess to your point I haven't been in a brand new arena maybe ever, but I've been to Gainbridge and United Center that are good enough for NBA teams, and Rupp and Yum Center which are good enough to host NCAA tourney games. I think we could very much renovate Heritage Bank to that level. Of all those Yum might be the nicest arena I've been to, but by adding some additional concourse space with more glass and a view over the river we could actually create a very similar experience here. 

Edited April 8Apr 8 by ucgrady

On 1/16/2025 at 12:27 PM, jdm00 said:

Seeing that photo makes me really want to cap FWW.  

 

This is why the banks failed. A cap would’ve transformed the value of real estate

15 hours ago, Lazarus said:

No.  The multi-purpose stadiums became obsolete when team owners gained enough leverage to force cities to build them separate stadiums - stadiums where they would not have to compromise with other tenants regarding luxury box revenue and other conflict points.

 

Anyone with half a brain who went to baseball or football games at Riverfront, the Vet, Three Rivers, or Busch II will tell you that the fan experience at GABP, Heinz Field, PNC Park, Citizens Bank Park, The Linc, whatever they're calling Jacob's Field, and even Browns Stadium is lightyears better than the multi-use cookie-cutter stadiums. I also love how you ignored all the other good that's come from tearing down Riverfront and redeveloping the area. 

 

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

I went to Rupp arena and 5/3 bank center this year, both are great venues that have had great renovations recently.

 

Even renovated Rupp is still 20 years behind some of the other arenas. The upper deck just now got chairbacks that are still tiny and Rupp doesn't have the club seats and boxes that make the most money. Don't get me started on 5/3.

 

A couple things can be true at once. HBC is old and outdated and going to a sold-out event there is not a pleasant experience. Even a large Cyclones crowd stretches what the arena is capable of holding efficiently. For a big event, they literally have to put port-o-potties outside the building. It can also be true that we're probably not missing out on many concerts or events. I do have it on good authority that Cincinnati would get NCAA men's games on the regular and we could definitely host the women's Final Four and Frozen Four more often if we had a better arena. Hell, even with a moderate renovation we could probably steal the First Four from Dayton since that place is still a barely passable arena for an event that size even with renovations.

 

It can and is also true that there's a group trying to get an arena built in the West End as another anchor for real estate improvements there.

 

It can and is also true that we're not going to get a major sport tenant for any new arena barring some major shakeup in the NHL that no one is seeing yet. So if the arena gets built maybe their business model is to try and poach events from Louisville, Columbus, Indy and Pittsburgh because any Cincinnati arena won't have a main tenant to schedule around. At this point I don't know what to think about the whole thing. It would be great to have a new venue but as far as concerts go, like @Gordon Bombay said, there's really no big acts that they can pin down as having skipped Cincinnati. We have tons of mid-sized venues in town and Riverbend is getting a complete overhaul for the summer concert tours. HBC still attracts things like monster trucks, Disney on Ice, and all the kids touring acts the come through. With the Bengals about to try and take the county to the cleaners again and the Reds lease coming up thus restarting their whole stadium/lease negotiations, I think it doesn't really make sense to even entertain the idea of a new arena until that's all sorted out. Plus there are real issues that the city/county need to be addressing that would actually improve the city more than a new arena. Streetcar extensions, a light rail plan, making the BRT plan work, capping FWW, road diets on Central Pkwy, etc. 

 

Who knows, in 2035 when the Bengals have left for another city or moved to NKY, Butler or Clermont County (God I hope so) then maybe we can poach an NHL team.

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

It would be great to have a new venue but as far as concerts go, like @Gordon Bombay said, there's really no big acts that they can pin down as having skipped Cincinnati. We have tons of mid-sized venues in town and Riverbend is getting a complete overhaul for the summer concert tours. HBC still attracts things like monster trucks, Disney on Ice, and all the kids touring acts the come through.

 

 

This is something that can be measured through revenue, ticket sales, and hotel bookings. I don't know the numbers but the perception is that Columbus and Indy have more and larger acts.

 

It is an obvious fact that Cincinnati lacks a new and modern arena. Right?

 

IMO, it makes more sense to put it by the Convention Center so we can vie for nationally significant conventions like the DNC/RNC. The riverfront could have a higher and better use such as housing, hotels, some other cultural landmark/attraction.

Edited April 8Apr 8 by Miami-Erie

2 hours ago, columbus17 said:

This is why the banks failed. A cap would’ve transformed the value of real estate

The Banks didn’t fail.

Really well said, @JaceTheAce41 - that’s a fantastic summary.
 

I think most can agree (especially here on this site) that a more contemporary arena (whether via renovation or new construction) is an amenity that’s to be expected from a city of Cincinnati’s size/ambitions. I think it’s fair to say that there’s an objective “need” for such a facility. The question, of course, is how to pay for that and to what degree the public shares in that investment.

I was in HBC about a month ago and it’s embarrassingly bad. The process of getting in the arena is hilariously disorganized and slow. Once you get inside it’s like being transported to the 70’s. To the point that was made earlier about not missing big concerts, we are not going to get a memo that says “sorry your arena sucked so we passed” they will simply choose other cities. So I think the fact we are missing out on major performances is being majorly undersold . Taylor Swift is an extreme example but just 1 concert of hers provided close to $100 million for 1 weekend. 

No arena show will come close to what a tour like Taylor Swift brings.

 

All the talk of missing concerts is overblown IMO (and I think we need a new arena!). The current arena gets a lot of use because we are a fairly big city. We aren't going to magically get all the shows that currently don't come here. We might get a few more good national touring acts, but it's not going to be a game changer IMO. Part of the problem is that there are so many cities within a 4 hour drive of Cincinnati that we will be left off of lots of tours as they prioritize where to go. Columbus, Louisville, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Lexington all have arenas that regularly host big name concerts. They aren't going to every city with a new arena.

 

Chicago, Detroit, and Nashville regularly get just about every touring act. That leaves all of these other cities vying to get the 2 or so other dates that they have available for this part of the country. They won't pick us every time with a new arena. Maybe we get a couple more bigger acts we wouldn't have gotten before, but I really don't think it's going to be super noticeable. We'll still get shows the other neighboring cities don't, and we'll still miss out on shows that neighboring cities get.

3 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

All the talk of missing concerts is overblown IMO (and I think we need a new arena!).

When the next arena is built, the price will be overblown. Urban Ohio will make overblown comments about the new arena, and all the news outlets will make overblown comments, too. When you buy a new car/SUV the price is overblown. The fact remains the Heritage arena is close to 60 years old, and it sits on top of a web of intersecting roads that some people call a bottleneck.

 

Cincinnati is spending $220 million to fix leaks and repaint some walls. The reason seems to be; it's too dark, we have leaks, and the carpet is ugly. It's a perfectly good convention center, and IMO these overblown costs won't change anything significantly. The Convention Center will not get larger conventions or shows because it's in a bottleneck situation. It can't grow east because of Elm Street. It can't grow south because of the new hotel, and it can't grow north because of 7th and parking garages. To grow west, Central Ave. will need to be blocked. And, finally, it won't be able to grow west until the FHWA says it can. That date is undetermined.

 

Oh, and Cranley made me do it.

 

Cincinnati would be way down in the list for NHL expansion but what if we can convince the Sabers to move here? No one foresaw Utah getting the Coyotes and the Delta Center, while nicer than HBC, is terrible for hockey and needs a renovation 

Sabers play in HBC until a new arena can be built?

 

 

If that were to happen, you gotta re-brand the team as the Cincinnati Swords—the city’s former (and successful) AHL club who were the affiliate of the Sabres. Playing at the Gardens, they were replaced in the market by the Stingers of the WHA and the opening of the Coliseum/Heritage Bank Center. The reborn Swords in a new arena replacing the one originally for a team that never made it to the NHl would be a cool storyline. 
 

That being said, would really suck to see Buffalo lose a long-standing team and I don’t see the NHL allowing a club so close to the Blue Jackets. 
 

@JaceTheAce41, is Delta Center only temporary?

Edited April 24Apr 24 by Gordon Bombay

1 hour ago, Gordon Bombay said:

@JaceTheAce41, is Delta Center only temporary

No. The state earmarked a ton of money for sports venues. $900 million for the MLB stadium and $900 million for the Delta Center renovation. I’m not an engineer but I don’t see how they can renovate the Delta Center without demolishing a wall. As it stands if you’re in the upper deck end zone, you can’t see the near goal. The place was made for basketball first. The Winter Olympics are coming back too so the city needed a new main arena

Heritage Bank Center will host Louisville vs. Cincinnati basketball later this year.

Freedom Hall comeback set as Louisville renews rivalry with Cincinnati

Eric Crawford May 9, 2025 Updated 4 hrs ago

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WDRB) -- The University of Louisville men's basketball program will rekindle two of its oldest and fiercest rivalries next season.

One day after announcing a six-year series with Memphis, Louisville is set to announce a two-year series with Cincinnati, with the second game to be played in Freedom Hall in 2026 and the first to be played in the Heritage Bank Center in downtown Cincinnati in 2025.

John Rothstein of CBS was the first to report the agreement.

That game will mark a homecoming for second-year Louisville coach Pat Kelsey, who grew up in Cincinnati and played and coached at Xavier University.

Louisville has faced Cincinnati more than any other opponent in a rivalry that stretches back to 1921. The last meeting between the schools was an 81-62 loss in the 2022 Maui Invitational. The last time the teams met in the regular season was on Feb. 22, 2014, when Louisville beat then No. 7-ranked Cincinnati 58-57 in the Fifth Third Center on the UC campus.

https://www.wdrb.com/sports/freedom-hall-comeback-set-as-louisville-renews-rivalry-with-cincinnati/article_544a6e52-3bcf-4ea3-bc49-59353394ceac.html