21 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

It can and it will, because any new income for a restricted fund = freed up money from unrestricted funds.  The railroad income will cover much or all of the existing capital budget outside of the previous railroad income, freeing up that income to be spent on the arena and convention center. 

What planet or reality are you living in? FC Cincinnati ownership wants a new arena near their West End holdings that is pretty obviously is going to be in the lot next to city hall.They will form some sort of arena ownership group that is already loosely formed to fiance it.They will demand infrastructure kickbacks and a new parking garage for such.

Not sure if it's been brought up but the city killed the Town Center Garage RFP due to the West End facing "an immense amount of change". Probably arena related.

Definitely. The city selling the land to an apartment developer is off the table, so it will likely be sold to an arena ownership group for $1, and then the city will kick in tens of millions to build the "infrastructure" to support the new arena.

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

UC makes a lot more money owning and controlling every aspect of its own arena. Having its sports teams and events such as graduation needing to go off campus is not at all the better option. They would just be a tenant in a new arena and have to schedule around other events/occupants so the move would have been foolish. Many University’s around the country from football to basketball are trying to get out of shared big public facilities and move them on campus.

 

UC could have set up a seeetrheart deal like UofL with the YUM Center or build the 15,000 seat arena themselves, controlled the premier venue in the area and moved volleyball to a more reasonable facility where 5/3 sits

22 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

Railroad money can't pay for an arena, but you know that.

 

Anyway. UC not moving to a renovated Heritage Bank Arena or building a new 15,000-16,000 seat arena on the site of the Innovation District and instead sinking money into renovating 5/3 will go down as one of the biggest own goals in Cincinnati sports history. We're not getting any more major league sports in this town

 

It was the right decision. Moving college sports off campus is not a good move. The final product they got for $87m was fantastic. 

22 hours ago, dnymck said:

Not sure if it's been brought up but the city killed the Town Center Garage RFP due to the West End facing "an immense amount of change". Probably arena related.

Stupid idea to put the arena there if you ask me. For one they want to create a nice flow between OTR and the West End, but putting in an arena there honestly just divides the two neighborhoods even more with TQL already in place.  Two is that they are spending all this money redoing Central Parkway but the only spot that will have any sort of residential will be the FC development.
 

Honestly would only be ok with it going here is if they said they had already had some developer who wanted to build one, but only wants to build it at that location and won’t entertain other spots. 

Edited November 17, 20231 yr by Ucgrad2015

If they do try to force an arena in the CET location, I think the city or county (whoever is giving money) should do everything they can to relocate the Duke substation as part of the project to open up not just that corner adjacent to the arena, but to create a clear shot of mostly surface lots all the way to City Hall. That whole corner of downtown is the worst parking crater left and it needs to go away if an arena is being squeezed in over there. 

I know that it'll probably go wherever Berding & Co. want it, and that means the West End because they already own the land, but there are so many other good sites in or near downtown. I hope the city council doesn't fall for it. TQL stadium was an okay deal and it's location works a little better because the stadium isn't right up on the street but there isn't enough room anywhere in the West End for a modern stadium that doesn't lie flat against the street. This is leaving out the idea of "limited concourses".

 

Any new arena should be built at the casino, or more ideally, in Queensgate next to Union Terminal. You could build a whole new neighborhood there and an arena would be a good anchor for bars and restaurants. Surround those with apartments and condos and you'll open up hundreds of new housing units in a good location.

14 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

there isn't enough room anywhere in the West End for a modern stadium that doesn't lie flat against the street. This is leaving out the idea of "limited concourses".

 

 

They're going to get whatever lanes of Central Ave. and Central Parkway they want.  For free.  We could easily see the concourse of the new arena built over the subway tunnel.  We will likely see the subway water main used to feed water to the new arena. 

 

 

 

 

 

If the arena does happen on the site of the WCET studio, it's easy to see how Lindner and Berding will come for the Police HQ and Taft HS sites to construct  parking garages that can serve both the stadium and the arena:

 

 

6 hours ago, Lazarus said:

If the arena does happen on the site of the WCET studio, it's easy to see how Lindner and Berding will come for the Police HQ and Taft HS sites to construct  parking garages that can serve both the stadium and the arena:

 

 

I feel like I’d see them go for the free store food bank and Duke substation first. I feel like going for the school would cause some uproar from the community, the police headquarters not so much since they need a new one. I. Could see them building a new police headquarters in the parking lot north from city hall with maybe a garage just east. 

IIRC the neighborhood liaison mentioned at a community council meeting that FCC wants to buy the district 1 headquarters for a parking garage.

3 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

I feel like I’d see them go for the free store food bank and Duke substation first.

 

Ezzard Charles is a direct connection to I-75. 

 

They're eventually going to take everything.  With city council now a patronage job, determined by the Democrat ticket and not by the voters, everything is going to get rubber stamped. 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

With city council now a patronage job, determined by the Democrat ticket and not by the voters, everything is going to get rubber stamped. 

 

 

 

Everything is going to get rubber-stamped anyway, because the "Fathers of Cincinnati" always get their way. It was the case before the Democrats had their first ever sweep of council.  No need to shove your politics in here.  As we've seen in other blue cities and with our statehouse (which is basically all republican), when you have one-party rule, the one-party ends up splintering into factions and disagrees anyway.

 

There will be a ton of candidates in 2025. From the centrists to the ultra-progressives.  There will also be candidates that run on single issues as independents. The "Fix the Roads", "Stop the Crimes" types. There weren't many candidates this year because the incumbents were uncontroversial and popular.  Our city needed that after the last decade.

Edited November 19, 20231 yr by 10albersa

On 11/18/2023 at 10:10 AM, Dev said:

IIRC the neighborhood liaison mentioned at a community council meeting that FCC wants to buy the district 1 headquarters for a parking garage.

Almost inevitable at some point. FCC already has an right of first refusal on the building, which they got as part of the parking deal they made with the city.

Do we really care if the police headquarters, or even the school, ends up being relocated? 

9 minutes ago, ink said:

Do we really care if the police headquarters, or even the school, ends up being relocated? 

 

Exactly. What's the highest and best use of that land?

34 minutes ago, ink said:

Do we really care if the police headquarters, or even the school, ends up being relocated? 

The school id say would have some pushback since the stadium is right across the street and a lot of people were upset when FC bought the old stadium site.  As for the POlice headquarters I’d say there won’t be as much pushback since we actually do need a new one. Can the railroad money be used for it? I’m assuming if so, they will try and use some of that. 

48 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

Exactly. What's the highest and best use of that land?

Not a parking garage IMO

The school and CPD 1 are expendable. Don't let them touch Betts-Longworth.

The school id say would have some pushback since the stadium is right across the street and a lot of people were upset when FC bought the old stadium site.  As for the POlice headquarters I’d say there won’t be as much pushback since we actually do need a new one. Can the railroad money be used for it? I’m assuming if so, they will try and use some of that. 

Not disagreeing with anything you’re saying at all, but the thought of “railroad money” is going to be a dangerous one moving forward. Cincinnati taxpayers should make sure they are getting their full moneys worth for prime sites like the police station, and not just hand them over to developers because there’s extra money in the till from the railroad sale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On 11/18/2023 at 9:31 PM, 10albersa said:

Everything is going to get rubber-stamped anyway, because the "Fathers of Cincinnati" always get their way. It was the case before the Democrats had their first ever sweep of council.  No need to shove your politics in here.  As we've seen in other blue cities and with our statehouse (which is basically all republican), when you have one-party rule, the one-party ends up splintering into factions and disagrees anyway.

 

There will be a ton of candidates in 2025. From the centrists to the ultra-progressives.  There will also be candidates that run on single issues as independents. The "Fix the Roads", "Stop the Crimes" types. There weren't many candidates this year because the incumbents were uncontroversial and popular.  Our city needed that after the last decade.

 

Nationwide there is actually a shortage of people willing to run for local political offices as well.

before they tear down those two buildings (possible historic value) consider incorporating the garage around the buildings like the renderings of the East End Loft Project.

I think the sun station and food bank lots extending from 12th  on  the north to court on the south.  This would entail closing that Charles street a short stretch but I don’t think that would materially reduce any connectivity to west end.

 

I think anything smaller risks compromising the project.  I also like the fact that as you get to court street, that block widens and therefore that side of the arena could make for a very attractive and expansive lobby/atrium area.  I think a primary entrance on that side can reinvigorate that section of downtown.  I think a. E trance on the north side should also be available.  
 

I personally would like the CET space be used for something else 

Can Duke even move that substation? That seems like it would be extremely difficult.

If I recall correctly, Louisville City’s stadium is built on the site of a substation. The problem with any of the area south of TQL is that it’s far too narrow for a modern arena, hence the “limited concourses” in the concept plan that came out. That doesn’t solve any of the problems that Heritage Bank suffers from. 

You could get an arena in this area but you run into a lot of issues with the neighborhood. 

 

If only there was a block where no one lives, had access to ample parking and was more than big enough. Oh well 

1 hour ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

If I recall correctly, Louisville City’s stadium is built on the site of a substation. The problem with any of the area south of TQL is that it’s far too narrow for a modern arena, hence the “limited concourses” in the concept plan that came out. That doesn’t solve any of the problems that Heritage Bank suffers from. 

You could get an arena in this area but you run into a lot of issues with the neighborhood. 

 

Heritage bank has way more problems then just their concourses.  

I think you guys are putting way too much emphasis on the "limited concourses" terminology. A modern limited concourse is still a lot bigger and nicer than what we have at Heritage. 

52 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

If only there was a block where no one lives, had access to ample parking and was more than big enough. Oh well 

 

That block south of Union Terminal definitely has potential due to being right near the highway and Union Terminal. But putting an arena there only makes sense if there's a broader strategy and vision for Queensgate. And a key part of that strategy would be figuring out where those Queensgate businesses (which are valuable to the economy) would relocate to, and how to better connect Queensgate and downtown (which the Bridge Forward group has been pushing for, but with only limited traction from the City and ODOT). Absent a viable, comprehensive strategy for redeveloping all of Queensgate, I'd rather the arena be close to other walkable amenities (existing garages, existing hotels, casino, convention center, existing stadiums, etc) in downtown.

 

Considering that block is 18 acres, it has relatively few owners so it might be possible (though by no means easy) to assemble properties there:

• Warbro Realty LLC
• Leeroy LLC
• 1212 Dalton LLC
• Budig Realty 
• MKC Properties LLC
• 1225 Western LLC
• 1014 Gest St Properties LLC

9 hours ago, CincyNY said:

I think the sun station and food bank lots extending from 12th  on  the north to court on the south.  This would entail closing that Charles street a short stretch but I don’t think that would materially reduce any connectivity to west end.

 

I think anything smaller risks compromising the project.  I also like the fact that as you get to court street, that block widens and therefore that side of the arena could make for a very attractive and expansive lobby/atrium area.  I think a primary entrance on that side can reinvigorate that section of downtown.  I think a. E trance on the north side should also be available.  
 

I personally would like the CET space be used for something else 

 

I posted this in another thread but this site would make a lot more sense and frees up the other sites for proper redevelopment. If you close Charles street, even more space you can add if needed.

Edited November 21, 20231 yr by tonyt3524

On 11/17/2023 at 11:13 AM, Ucgrad2015 said:

Honestly would only be ok with it going here is if they said they had already had some developer who wanted to build one, but only wants to build it at that location and won’t entertain other spots. 

 

Isn't that the exact situation we're in? Berding and friends want an arena next to their stadium so they can build their version of The Banks that serves both venues. They're not going to entertain any other locations for that reason. The only reason that we saw a map of "potential arena sites" is so that the Fathers of Cincinnati can say they did their due diligence and ultimately determined that the Town Center location is the best choice. None of the other locations are seriously being considered because there is no developer itching to build at any of the other locations.

15 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

I think you guys are putting way too much emphasis on the "limited concourses" terminology. A modern limited concourse is still a lot bigger and nicer than what we have at Heritage. 

 

Yeah plus nowadays you have multiple premium spaces/entrances under the seats, etc that would reduce congestion in the main areas.

47 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

 

I posted this in another thread but this site would make a lot more sense and frees up the other sites for proper redevelopment. If you close Charles street, even more space you can add if needed.

This is a money post and spot on.  This location and use checks so many boxes.  With regards to the concourses, it is made up for with large gathering areas/lobbies/atriums on both the north and south side.  The east and west concourses would still be wider than heritage, they just wouldn’t be the primary gathering areas. 
 

i would go a step further and take out the food bank as well so that there is room for some outdoor gathering space both north and south.  Would eliminate Charles street

Edited November 21, 20231 yr by CincyNY

34 minutes ago, tonyt3524 said:

 

Yeah plus nowadays you have multiple premium spaces/entrances under the seats, etc that would reduce congestion in the main areas.

I look at Gainbridge in Indy as an example. On the upper levels, the concourses are small and pretty tight. On the lower levels, there are very narrow areas and then there are areas where it offers a lot of space, and then there is more of a general concourse area in by the main entrance that offers a ton of space to gather inside. I can see this as a model. 

2 minutes ago, CincyNY said:

This is a money post and spot on.  This location and use checks so many boxes.  With regards to the concourses, it is made up for with large gathering areas/lobbies/atriums on both the north and south side.  The east and west concourses would still be wider than heritage, they just wouldn’t be the primary gathering areas. 

The one drawback of pushing it a couple of blocks South is that it does not allow as easy access from the highways for people coming into games and would be more likely to cause a traffic backup Not the end of the world but that would be a bit of a concern, plus there is a bit more residential housing in the area South of WCET vs the site that Berding and Co are proposing. 

9 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I look at Gainbridge in Indy as an example. On the upper levels, the concourses are small and pretty tight. On the lower levels, there are very narrow areas and then there are areas where it offers a lot of space, and then there is more of a general concourse area in by the main entrance that offers a ton of space to gather inside. I can see this as a model. 

That’s exactly the model I was thinking. Most of these modern arenas now have maybe one or two large gathering lobby’s and common areas 

Like @taestellsaid the arena is going to end up going in the West End.  The CET site is already owned by the city I believe.  The city/FCC owners should be working to get control of the foodbank block and the substation block.  Wherever the arena ends up going the other block(s) can and should be developed into better uses.  A combo of residential, retail and hotel would be so much better use of those spaces then what currently is there.  Developing those blocks will also hopefully spur development on the surface lots by city hall. 

 

This northwest side of downtown could and hopefully will be completely changed for the better in the next decade.  

13 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Like @taestellsaid the arena is going to end up going in the West End.  The CET site is already owned by the city I believe.  The city/FCC owners should be working to get control of the foodbank block and the substation block.  Wherever the arena ends up going the other block(s) can and should be developed into better uses.  A combo of residential, retail and hotel would be so much better use of those spaces then what currently is there.  Developing those blocks will also hopefully spur development on the surface lots by city hall. 

 

This northwest side of downtown could and hopefully will be completely changed for the better in the next decade.  

 

Yeah I think my ideal plan would be to build the arena on the substation lot, close Charles st and develop that small plot as the "plaza" that was in the initial renderings, then you develop north with similar plans to what they're doing on the NE corner of TQL but with hopefully more residential and closer to the other initial plans for CET site.

 

Guess we will see..

Edited November 21, 20231 yr by tonyt3524

How about keeping it on Liberty. This spot i proposed several years ago is diagonal from TQL Stadium. Great access to I75, plenty of room to expand and it improves the westend. No important historic buildings will be destroyed, links the Linn St area closer to CBD. Now you have room for more parking garages, more TQL village, would start the connection of queensgate to CBD. In addition, all those proposed I75 covers (which will never happen) become just a big waste of money. 

On 11/21/2023 at 9:21 AM, tonyt3524 said:

 

I posted this in another thread but this site would make a lot more sense and frees up the other sites for proper redevelopment. If you close Charles street, even more space you can add if needed.

This location could also give an awesome visual cap to the main section of Central Parkway with the casino anchoring the other end already, along with a road diet of Central this could really make a massive difference to the northern end of the CBD. Between Ezzard Charles ramps from the North and 9th street ramps to the south I don't think this location would be any worse than TQL from a highway access issue either.

 

The problem is just if Duke is willing to play ball, and if so can you realistically bury their substation in a concrete vault because truly "relocating" it seems nearly impossible. The CET garage site has the benefit of being City owned, but has the negative of CET not wanting to go anywhere. This site has the benefit of more space, but has the negative of Duke not wanting or not being able to go anywhere. The CET site is still more likely but if FCC/Linders can get a better deal here its not impossible.

If that photo is up to scale then a new arena would fit here much better than on the CET lot. If the city/county would ever get its act together and pitch a new rail transit system, you could market the fact that TQL Stadium, and arena and the casino would be on the line, provided you use the existing subway tunnels. Or you could pitch a streetcar extension to CUT with a stop at the new arena and a stop at the casino

Hoping they go for the substation move. This is basically a vanity project for Berding & Co, at least that's how I see it since we have no team for this arena and no formal purpose for it.

Since it's a vanity move, might as well remove the ugliest thing in the neighborhood now, the substation.

 

As for a spot to put it, there's a bunch of vacant and underutilized land next to the White Castle at 8th & Lynn.

Still seems to me that the City and Chamber are seriously considering the site between Third and Fifth streets west of Central opened up by the Brent Spence Project.  

 

The site is publicly owned, no major  utility conflicts, site could be  graded as needed by ODOT, interstate ramps a block a way and would cross the street from the largest hotel in the region not to mention the proximity with the rest of downtown the convention center and the banks.  Will have interstate visibility and it would breath some life into SW downtown without the need to relocate anyone.   Just need to wait 3-4 years for it to become available. 

that is cincinnati, never put off tomorrow what you can put off for 3 or 4 or 8 to 10 years. by the looks of it that bit of land will house tons of supplies and road building equipment for years. where is the onsite parking? how will the ramps and traffic around the arena coincide with the existing streets? I doubt the interstate highway people will allow any building there before the ramps are complete.  how you gonna build a 17000 seat arena using Central Ave as your only egress? What will the fire department and fourth street have to say about this? the arena will be known as the wicked witch of the west-side. wart and all.

I just measured and the Schottenstein Center (which was built to be the main arena in Columbus before Nationwide) could fit on this substation site and the CET site. 

You'd certainly need to squeeze it in though and it doesn't leave a lot of room for a lobby. Any arena is going to have less capacity than TQL and if you can get 25-26,000 people into TQL without much issue on the interstate, you certainly can get 17,000 into an arena for a concert once every couple of months and 5-6,000 for hockey games. 

Another shill-job from Beryl Love:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/columnists/2023/12/20/enquirer-editor-beryl-love-sums-up-future-of-downtown-panel/71973265007/

 

It's not the job of a journalist to insist that there exist "missing pieces of the puzzle", or insinuate that the existing privately-built and privately-owned arena exhibits a panoply of very real and very unfixable problems by virtue of being "nearly 50 years old".  

 

I mean, think of all of those concerts that are passing Cincinnati by!  And political conventions!  And the NCAA tourney!  We're going to get those things and more if you do what I say and when we get those things everything will be fantastic!   

 

34 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

Another shill-job from Beryl Love

It is an opinion piece, you realize... right? I mean, it's fine if you disagree with his opinion. But I don't think it's fair to say "it's not the job of a journalist..." when in fact, in his capacity as an opinion writer, his job is to express his opinion. 

1 hour ago, jwulsin said:

It is an opinion piece, you realize... right? I mean, it's fine if you disagree with his opinion. But I don't think it's fair to say "it's not the job of a journalist..." when in fact, in his capacity as an opinion writer, his job is to express his opinion. 

 

He's not an opinion writer - he's "Executive Editor/Market Leader": https://www.cincinnati.com/staff/2648260001/beryl-love/

 

This is the same man that didn't know Cincinnati owned a railroad and didn't know how to pronounce Xavier, as in Xavier University and/or St. Xavier High School.  

 

This guy is angling for a job with the blue bloods so he's going to express whatever "opinion" they tell him to.    

 

 

With the recent announcement that MEMI will be building a new "$118 million music and entertainment venue" at the former Coney Island, I was thinking, how much more would it cost to make this into a true, full-fledged "arena"?