As for illegal immigration, it's not something I ever put enough thought into, to make an educated opinion. I do hear people saying the typical shit like:

 

"Those F-in Mexicans are stealing our jobs".

"Those Mexicans need to learn to speak English"

A bar in the west side of Cincinnati had a sign up outside saying "No English, No service" (Wtf?)

"They need to protest and march in front of their own government buildings" -Forumer on Urbanohio

 

When you hear a comment like "Mexicans are stealing our jobs" you think damn that's bullshit. Why should illegal Mexicans get American jobs when like 7 percent of Americans are unemployed? It also seems ridiculous that Mexicans would be protesting in OUR country. The problem is that Mexicans can't just freely protest anything in Mexico. The government claims to have freedom of speech, press, all that good stuff but the reality is different. Their government is very corrupt and it's not a good idea to go against it. I would say that we should promote citizenship by making it easier to obtain and allow more citizens per year, but the fact is, a lot of people are still racist and see them as a threat in the job maket/competition for low cost housing and government funded programs.  The only solution I can think of is to help their own economy. If we can make their economy stronger then they shouldn't have as much of a reason to sneak into the United States.  Potential problems I foresee with this method is A. corrupt government misuses and pockets the funds we would provide, and B. A strong economy (with a corrupt government, at that) bordering us poses a threat to ours (China already has our government officials shaking in their boots). I can't really blame Mexicans or anyone for that matter for wanting to better their own life, I know I'm trying to better mine so I'd be a hypocrit to criticize that.

 

Welfare:

Even though I'd starve to death and live in a box before I'd ever get on welfare, I think it's an important safety net. A lot of people oppose welfare because it's allowing people to be lazy and not contribute to society. That's very true in some cases. But the way I look at it is even though it's misused there are still a LOT of people that really do need it and only use it until they're able to get back on their feet. I think we need to have it as a safety net... we just need to figure out more ways to prevent it from being so abused. It can be really hard to get a job as a convicted felon or as somebody with no education but the problem is that a lot of people will go as far as to purposely fill out applications at places that they KNOW they are underqualified for so that they don't have to work. As much as I hate lazy people , I'd still hate to see kids suffer as a result of their fucked up parent.

 

Affirmative Action:

It sucks when someone else is less qualified than you but gets the job just because they provide diversity. However$, what people fail to understand (because an affirmative action discussion barely ever goes any more in depth than "affirmative action is bullshit") is that even though someone is less qualified, they CAN be better for the job. An example would be police patrol. It would be easier for a black police officer to communicate to the local residents of sayy...district one in Cincy. I think that with the history of opression and police brutality, racism and all that, a black police officer would be seen as less of the "enemy". If a black police officer had to shoot an armed black person, it would be percieved as being more justified, whereas if a white officer did it, it automatically results in speculation of racism. I think it would also help prevent profiling and discrimination.  Another example would be judges and lawyers. If you're a minority, you're probably best represented or judged by someone who can relate to you. I know first hand that a lot of people in powerful positions in charge of hiring, do discriminate, so I don't have much of a problem with affirmative action.

 

Anyway, what do you guys think about these issues? Feel free to discuss any other similar issues, and feel free to point out my flawed logic :]

Well, being from the Hamilton area, your first topic is quite commonplace. County officials were just called racist last night by an ACLU panel for programs they are starting to curb illegal immigration. Like every issue, there are generalizations and stereotypes on both sides. Here, you must separate illegals from those who entered legally and the reactions to each.

 

Personally, I've met a couple hispanic families in Hamilton that I couldn't think more highly of. They both live in terrible enviroments, but manage to raise well behaved children who are thriving in school (according to one of their teachers, who I am good friends with). I've also witnessed a construction van driving through the East Ave. area slowing down at the curb and two hispanics jumping in. I also read about a rape of a nine year old white girl by a hispanic and the racist outcry by the appalachian leftovers in the area. So where does this leave me? Nowhere.

 

In my six years of Spanish classes, I've seen my fair share of movies about Mexican families making attempts to cross the border and the hard life they face even once they've made it. I can't imagine being in that position.

 

On the flipside, I can understand the thought that a few (and thats a crucial word here) illegals are a drain on government services, particularly those who end up in trouble with the law. Those bad apples shouldn't ruin it for the bunch. So where does this leave me? Nowhere.

 

The language issue is tough too. As a melting pot, we somehow evolved into an primarily English speaking people, yet thats never been made official by the government. That means the argument that you should come here, learn the language and blend in, just doesn't make sense. We have no language. But I do see the struggle and costs to accomodate Spanish, but you have to remember you are accomodating legal Spanish speaking citizens too.

 

So where does this leave me? Nowhere. I am against breaking American laws. But I am also against oppression and suffering of any part of humanity, like I'm told many are facing in Mexico. What do you do about that? Well you've got me.

To add to your list above, I just found this sad comment in the Journal-News:

 

WHETHER THEY ARE called illegal, undocumented, unauthorized or any other sanitizing terminology, individuals and families who deliberately disrespect and violate the laws of our country do not deserve any special consideration. They should be denied employment, apprehended and prosecuted as they are discovered, as should any employer, church or any other willing accomplice in this criminal activity. If we as Americans do not value our laws enough to enforce them, how can we expect anyone else to honor them? Our gutless politicians and lawmakers need to stop worrying about school lunch and address these critical issues that should have been dealt with decades ago. After all, this is still America and if it is to remain so, we had better start acting like Americans rather than a bunch of indecisive, politically correct doormats.

To add to your list above, I just found this sad comment in the Journal-News:

 

WHETHER THEY ARE called illegal, undocumented, unauthorized or any other sanitizing terminology, individuals and families who deliberately disrespect and violate the laws of our country do not deserve any special consideration. They should be denied employment, apprehended and prosecuted as they are discovered, as should any employer, church or any other willing accomplice in this criminal activity. If we as Americans do not value our laws enough to enforce them, how can we expect anyone else to honor them? Our gutless politicians and lawmakers need to stop worrying about school lunch and address these critical issues that should have been dealt with decades ago. After all, this is still America and if it is to remain so, we had better start acting like Americans rather than a bunch of indecisive, politically correct doormats.

 

I know of more than one or two native-born Americans who fit that description, and not all of them are poor or uneducated. I haven't seen much evidence of a strong movement to apply to them the same sanctions and punishments that some folks are advocating for "illegal" immigrants and people who help them.

To add to your list above, I just found this sad comment in the Journal-News:

 

WHETHER THEY ARE called illegal, undocumented, unauthorized or any other sanitizing terminology, individuals and families who deliberately disrespect and violate the laws of our country do not deserve any special consideration. They should be denied employment, apprehended and prosecuted as they are discovered, as should any employer, church or any other willing accomplice in this criminal activity. If we as Americans do not value our laws enough to enforce them, how can we expect anyone else to honor them? Our gutless politicians and lawmakers need to stop worrying about school lunch and address these critical issues that should have been dealt with decades ago. After all, this is still America and if it is to remain so, we had better start acting like Americans rather than a bunch of indecisive, politically correct doormats.

What the hell is he rambling about? School lunch...stfu. Trying to use patriotism as a rhetorical device.

The language issue is tough too. As a melting pot, we somehow evolved into an primarily English speaking people, yet thats never been made official by the government. That means the argument that you should come here, learn the language and blend in, just doesn't make sense. We have no language. But I do see the struggle and costs to accomodate Spanish, but you have to remember you are accomodating legal Spanish speaking citizens too.

We should "accomodate" Spanish-speaking people by not being jerks about it and not trying to force them to abandon their language, but in general if language concessions are going to be made it should be mostly by the immigrants.  Official or not, English is the language of this country and pretty much always has been.  Nobody should be forced to "blend in," but expecting that people make at least some attempt to learn the language is reasonable.  English-only laws as a response to immigrants, such as the one being considered in Ohio a little while ago, are pointless and just mean-spirited, though.

ILLEGAL imigration: You are more then welcome to live in this country as long as it is done legally.

 

Welfare: It is a necessary evil, but things really need to be changed. All people who are disabled physically/mentally should be able to recieve benefits, and if some 16 year old girl gets pregnant then society should do everything to help her and her child. However, society should not have to pay for children 2-9.

 

Affirmative action: Yep, its bullshit.

 

Yeah, those 2 year old kids should get jobs and start contributing to the family.

Ready for a good laugh?

 

When the ACLU held their panel discussion on illegal immigration at Miami Hamilton this week, a KKK group from Toledo came to protest. They marched around Oxford waving flags that said things like "Protect the Whites" and "White is Right" and my favorite "Thou Shalt Not Steal: How do you say it in Spanish?."

 

Apparently this white group can't read.

The KKK has got to be the most ignorant group of people out there. It's funny how they hide their faces with masks or hide it behind a confederate flag. If you're going to be racist atleast have the balls to show your face. Why do they do it surreptitiously? Because as racist as they are, they still know it makes them look bad. No one with intelligence ever says "wow I really like your racist views, those are some good views about why [insert group of people here] are inferior to us and should be kicked out of the country". But I guess dumb ass rednecks with no life, no political power, no money have to feel like they're better than somebody.

I feel that it should be easier for immigrants to become legal citizens.  Our country was founded on immigration from Europe and those so called 'undesireables' in society.  How can we be so hypocritical to say that we dont want Mexicans to come into our nation because they are uneducated and so on (not my belief).  We are to take in the world's 'undesireables' and help them create a better life.

 

I believe that the US needs an Ellis Island of sorts for the south.  Lets streamline the immigration process and welcome these new people, to our nation, with open arms!

 

 

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

-Emma Lazarus wrote in a poem on the base of the Statue of Liberty

Its simple, prosecute the companies that <knowingly> hire illegals.

{Thats the company that pay the folks NOT the company that hired it}

The US has been their done that with immigration and it hasn't been such a problem, I do think we need better security at the boarder but most of this crazy talk about losing jobs is just hog wash.

 

 

 

http://memory.loc.gov/learn/features/timeline/riseind/chinimms/chinimms.html

 

 

After the Civil War, immigrants again began to stream to the United States. Between 1870 and 1900, nearly 12 million immigrants arrived--more foreign-born people than had come to the country in the preceding 70 years. During the 1870s and 1880s, the majority came from Germany, Ireland, and England--the principal source of immigration before the Civil War. Even so, a relatively large group of Chinese immigrated to the United States between the start of the California gold rush in 1849 and 1882, when federal law stopped their immigration.

 

While the majority of immigrants came to settle in the United States permanently, many worked for a time and returned home with whatever savings they had set aside from their work. The majority of Chinese immigrants, for example, were single men who worked for a while and returned home. At first, they were attracted to North America by the gold rush in California. Many prospected for gold on their own or labored for other miners. Soon, many opened their own businesses such as restaurants, laundries, and other personal service concerns. After the gold rush, Chinese immigrants worked as agricultural laborers, on railroad construction crews throughout the West, and in low-paying industrial jobs.

 

With the onset of hard economic times in the 1870s, other immigrants and European Americans began to compete for the jobs traditionally reserved for the Chinese. With economic competition came dislike and even racial suspicion and hatred. Such feelings were accompanied by anti-Chinese riots and pressure, especially in California, for the exclusion of Chinese immigrants from the United States. The result of this pressure was the Chinese Exclusion Act, passed by Congress in 1882. This Act virtually ended Chinese immigration for nearly a century. As the following documents suggest, there were many opinions about this issue.

 

12 million back than is certainly a greater % then the 11 or so million they are talking about now, this whole issue just seams like a distraction from the horrible job the republican administration that controle all 3 branches of government is doing. IMHO

Ah....what a hectic world we live in.......

The ironic thing that in the 19th and early 20th century we did have a true bilingual immigrant community with the Germans, who where bilingual over two or three generations.  This community spoke German among themselves, but English when dealing with non-Germans. 

 

This was sort of satirized in old comics, like the Katzenjammer Kids.

 

 

 

(loosley based on the German Max und Mortiz)

 

 

Then there was the German regiments in the US Civil War.

 

Here is a recruiting ad for the 1st Kentucky German Regiment

 

 

...and I 've read there there was a German regiment from Dayton that fought in the Mexican War.

 

I guess their officers gave commands in German during combat?

 

 

Of course this has all faded into history, but at least there is a historical record that the US did survive an earlier immigration, and that an immigrant group did exist as only partially assimilated for long time, yet remained pretty loyal Americans.

 

So I'm not too bummed out on immigration as a cultural thing.  We've been there before.

 

 

 

When it comes to the work that immigrants do, particularly illegal immigrants, citizens  just are not willing to do the work. it is dirty, hard, and poorly compensated. if Americans were to do these jobs they would (rightfully) demand a living wage. Guess what folks? the prices of our homes, fruit, veggies you name it would go up.I would like to see whoever does this work, citizen or not, get a living wage. It infuriates me when people bitch about immigrants getting Medicaid (for laymen that's health insurance "welfare"- Health benefits for low income, disabled,elderly or indigent folks) or other benefits. Immigrants get poisoned picking our pesticide laden produce, break their necks building our houses and we don't want to pony up to our ethical responsibilities. We just want our cheap crap NOW. Speaking of which Bill O'reilly had ann coulter on last night -the evil madness of the two drew me in, as I never can watch. She said illegal immigrants should be made to build a wall around the border to keep other illegals out. oh lord is this lady is nuts. By the way  David, if "Neo Redneck" is our own word, you outta copyright it. that is gold!

When it comes to the work that immigrants do, particularly illegal immigrants, citizens  just are not willing to do the work. it is dirty, hard, and poorly compensated. if Americans were to do these jobs they would (rightfully) demand a living wage. Guess what folks? the prices of our homes, fruit, veggies you name it would go up.I would like to see whoever does this work, citizen or not, get a living wage. It infuriates me when people bitch about immigrants getting Medicaid (for laymen that's health insurance "welfare"- Health benefits for low income, disabled,elderly or indigent folks) or other benefits. Immigrants get poisoned picking our pesticide laden produce, break their necks building our houses and we don't want to pony up to our ethical responsibilities. We just want our cheap crap NOW. Speaking of which Bill O'reilly had ann coulter on last night -the evil madness of the two drew me in, as I never can watch. She said illegal immigrants should be made to build a wall around the border to keep other illegals out. oh lord is this lady is nuts. By the way  David, if "Neo Redneck" is our own word, you outta copyright it. that is gold!

I totally agree with you. Illegal immigrants contribute a lot of tax money (IRS and homeland security can't share information) so it doesn't bother me. If people are profiting from illegal immigrants, it seems like it would ultimately open up more job opportunities for Americans.

Speaking of which Bill O'reilly had ann coulter on last night -the evil madness of the two drew me in, as I never can watch.

 

"The evil madness of the two" ....That was a good observation.  Well said!

One of the points lost in the debate about illegal immigrants was raised by a contractor on one of my projects.  He said that what most people don't realize is all the illegal immigrants contribute Social Security and Medicare taxes, of which they will NEVER see a dime. 

 

I would think more citizens would take the jobs performed by illegals if they actually paid decently, which they would if employers weren't capable of paying cut-rate to illegals.  The big argument against a living wage, though (seriously, how can you advocate against a living wage?) is that the cost of everything would go up.  I seem to remember a study that showed prices would only increase about 1% if living wages were mandatory.  Wish I could remember where I read that.

 

The big argument against a living wage, though (seriously, how can you advocate against a living wage?) is that the cost of everything would go up.   I seem to remember a study that showed prices would only increase about 1% if living wages were mandatory.  Wish I could remember where I read that.

 

I have been to Sweden twice. they are a social democracy. Everybody has a living a wage. And somehow corporation's manage to survive. I suspect their profit margins are not as large and the fat cats at the top don't roll around in the dough as much as here. you hear corporations crying that they cannot afford to pay more. Well McDonald's seemed to be doing a pretty good business there (sadly). They are a business, they would not be there is they were not making money. they just don't have the profits like in US. Of course the side issue is Sweden has universal health care so companies do not have to pay for health care. Although the low wages places have few people covered anyway. We spend more on health care in US per capita yet have poor health outcomes (lots of chronic disease, childhood developmental issues that could have been addressed with prenatal and early child assessment and treatment) when compared to other developed nations. We have poor preventive care and then spend a lot to fix ourselves when broken. When Sweden enacted socialized medicine, life time disability payments went down sharply, b/c so many disabling illness were prevented. Trust me if we all had health care in the end we would all spend less. And call me crazy, but if the cost of consumer good went up to off set a living wage, would it really kill us to consume a little less? How many gadgets, designer outfits, new cars,  do we really need? If an issue,I do think HEALTHY foods should be subsidized for low income people though.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that businesses in the U.S. are much more profitable than elsewhere.  Ever hear of General Motors?

 

If an issue,I do think HEALTHY foods should be subsidized for low income people though.

 

A friend of mine works at the Urban Institute here in DC.  She worked on a study, about to be published, that examined spatial relationships between food stamp recipients and availability of healthy food.  I don't know much more than that, since it's still classified, but the way my friend describes the study, it doesn't seem very optimistic.

 

 

Man eating healthy is expensive for anybody. Organic food is ridiculous. Go into Wild Oats and see how quickly you will spend a few hundred dollars on groceries. I still try to eat healthy and buy whole wheat noodles and stuff like that. I will NEVER give up Ramen noodles though... best 17 cents you will ever spend on a meal!

Wanna see something interesting?  Live in a transitional neighborhood.  The Safeway on Capitol Hill (formerly the "un-Safeway") has recently upgraded its store and selection due to the massive wave of gentrification (as well as the soon-to-be-open Harris Teeter two blocks away).  It's kind of interesting to be able to get a cup of Starbucks and gourmet cheese as well as chitlins and collard greens.  Take that, Whole Foods!

^I think Dave's is a bit like that in Shaker Square and I suspect in OC too, which I think is pretty cool.

 

As for the language thing- I'm not sure why everyone assumes the current waves of immigrants are learning English more slowly than past waves.  It might be true, but I'm not aware of any convincing studies (which I think would be pretty interesting) or even anecdotal evidence.  Here in NY (which is almost 40% foreign born), I can count on one hand the number of times language has been a real barrier for me...which makes much of the language griping (or English First laws in places like OH) sound more like knee-jerk resentful bitching to me.

 

Oh, I had that wrong, it was a group of Nazis, not the KKK. Wouldn't want to get them confused. ;)

 

If an issue,I do think HEALTHY foods should be subsidized for low income people though.

 

A friend of mine works at the Urban Institute here in DC.  She worked on a study, about to be published, that examined spatial relationships between food stamp recipients and availability of healthy food.  I don't know much more than that, since it's still classified, but the way my friend describes the study, it doesn't seem very optimistic.

 

 

 

I am guessing that the foods are of poor nutritional quality in neighborhoods with high number of food stamp recipients? Or are purchases made using food stamp are of poor quality? or both (my guess a little of both)? 

 

and to danindc and straphanger, I love the mixed markets to. In ohio city I can get all my latin food fixings at Daves Supermarket, and if I were so inclined someting at the olive bar ( I  actually go to the Athens Greek store for those..but I could get them if i wanted) .

^I think Dave's is a bit like that in Shaker Square and I suspect in OC too, which I think is pretty cool.

 

As for the language thing- I'm not sure why everyone assumes the current waves of immigrants are learning English more slowly than past waves.  It might be true, but I'm not aware of any convincing studies (which I think would be pretty interesting) or even anecdotal evidence.  Here in NY (which is almost 40% foreign born), I can count on one hand the number of times language has been a real barrier for me...which makes much of the language griping (or English First laws in places like OH) sound more like knee-jerk resentful bitching to me.

 

 

The people that I've heard complaining about that sort of thing are usually from the most white bread suburbs or rural areas and aren't running into a lot of actual immigrants.  But they have heard about how "today's immigrants" aren't learning English from Fox News, 60 Minutes exposes, or their cousin so and so.  And/or they don't like to speak to anyone who's English isn't 100% fluent and unaccented (which qualifies as not speaking English in their book).

Man eating healthy is expensive for anybody. Organic food is ridiculous. Go into Wild Oats and see how quickly you will spend a few hundred dollars on groceries. I still try to eat healthy and buy whole wheat noodles and stuff like that. I will NEVER give up Ramen noodles though... best 17 cents you will ever spend on a meal!

 

You don't have to buy organic food or shop at Wild Oats to eat healthy.  I eat pretty healthy, and my grocery bill has gone down because I don't buy tons of junk food and heavily-processed foods.  I also eat out less, which also saves money. 

 

Buying produce that is in-season and/or locally grown also makes it affordable.

Man eating healthy is expensive for anybody. Organic food is ridiculous. Go into Wild Oats and see how quickly you will spend a few hundred dollars on groceries. I still try to eat healthy and buy whole wheat noodles and stuff like that. I will NEVER give up Ramen noodles though... best 17 cents you will ever spend on a meal!

 

You don't have to buy organic food or shop at Wild Oats to eat healthy.  I eat pretty healthy, and my grocery bill has gone down because I don't buy tons of junk food and heavily-processed foods.  I also eat out less, which also saves money. 

 

Buying produce that is in-season and/or locally grown also makes it affordable.

-

 

I agree I try to do 95% of my shopping at west side market here in Cleveland. they dont sell all that instant/processed corporate crap (ie chips, ect). It is a lot of work cooking dinner most nights from scratch, but worth it.  not to say ramen noodles are bad though, just through some veggies and/or protein in!

Mexico Harsh to Undocumented Migrants

 

Bobo, do you have a link for that story?

or rural areas and aren't running into a lot of actual immigrants.  But they have heard about how "today's immigrants" aren't learning English from Fox News, 60 Minutes exposes, or their cousin so and so.  And/or they don't like to speak to anyone who's English isn't 100% fluent and unaccented (which qualifies as not speaking English in their book).

 

With the exception of CSPAN, pretty much all news and political discussion on TV I'd dismiss tabloid sensationalism and shouldn't be taken too seriously.  I have worked in various capacities with Mexicans, it is at the very least chaotic if not highly dangerous.  Using sign language can work in less physical jobs but just last week I almost saw a Mexican kill himself by improperly attaching the safety chain to a load a crane was lifting.  The chain slipped out of its hook, swung down, and almost doinked him in the head, which would have at least knocked him out.  In my current job I see a lot of safety problems from Mexicans, they are used to working unsafely by American standards and then the language barrier just compounds it.  It's hard enough to get Americans to follow safety guidelines, but these guys seem really stubborn about it.  It seems to me that most of these Mexican guys don't plan on staying here which is why they aren't making an effort to learn English.  Also, their employers don't usually force them to learn English and they certainly aren't taking it upon themselves.     

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't see how the neo-rednecks can be so xenophobic.  I'd much rather eat at a neighborhood Mexican/Ethiopian/Thai/Etc. restaurant over that Applebee's BS.   

Mexico Harsh to Undocumented Migrants

 

Bobo, do you have a link for that story?

 

 

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Mexico_Mistreating_Migrants.html

 

actually I read it off Yahoo..but heres a reputable site saying the same thing