Even when discussing viability, you have to acknowledge that a 22 week preemie is not the same as a full term baby in terms of health and the financial resources needed to care for that human.  A "viable" fetus is not necessarily a healthy child.  In a world where all humans have equal access to health care and parents don't have to decide whether to go bankrupt caring for a special needs preemie, then maybe the abortion discussion changes.  

48 minutes ago, cle_guy90 said:

I tried to rephrase it in a way that people who disagree with the fetus would still be willing to dialogue.  I hold that a fetus is a human life.  Now I know that people will reject that premise as you did.  So what I am trying to dialogue on is at what point then is a fetus a human life?  And can we at least agree that an abortion past a certain point should not happen.  We would never think of killing a baby born alive at 22 weeks because it is a human life and we are convinced of that but if the baby wasn't born yet then it isn't?  That just doesn't seem right.  And people like to argue that viability is a good line to draw.  Why does our current scientific advancements dictate whether something is a life or not.   Appreciate the dialogue.

I do argue that viability is a good line to draw.  The amendment is very specific that viability is determined on a case-by-case basis by your doctor.  This is important for fetuses with defects that are viable later or are never viable.  If there was a cutoff of a certain number of weeks, fetuses with anencephaly or other conditions that aren’t compatible with life could not be terminated, which places a huge unnecessary burden on the pregnant person.

 

My son was not viable until about 26 weeks because he was growth restricted.  He had numerous congenital defects that were discovered in-utero, and I would have appreciated the ability to terminate between 23 and 26 weeks had doctors determined that his conditions were not compatible with life outside the womb.

12 hours ago, Foraker said:

That all seems to flip post-birth.  I can't imagine anyone in the anti-abortion camp saying that children have equal or greater rights than their parents.  Democrats have to fight for free lunch for kids in school and other aid to children and parents in every budget.  What happens to protecting and caring for the innocent children?

 

It's universally agreed that children have more protections than their parents. 

I appreciate are the thoughtful responses to my posts.  This topic really is so much easier to discuss in person than an internet forum and only so much conversation can really be had here, so I am going to bow out of the conversation.   

What Does Issue 1 Mean for Protecting Fertility Treatments in Ohio?

 

When Roe v. Wade was overturned in June 2022, the physicians at Ohio Reproductive Medicine took to their website, hoping to reassure patients that their care would still be available.

 

“It is truly hard to fathom that in 2022, our reproductive freedom, a fundamental human right, is now at risk,” the statement on the website read.

 

Though the Columbus business said it strongly opposed the overturning of Roe as a whole, the focus of their statement was on those undergoing or considering fertility treatments.

 

“We ardently stand alongside our current and past patients — as well as anyone who wishes to build a family in the future with the help of fertility treatments,” according to the statement.

 

The effects that repealing nationwide abortion access would have on fertility treatments like in-vitro fertilization (IVF) weren’t clearly spelled out by the U.S. Supreme Court in its Dobbs decision, but physicians have worried about what various bans mean when it comes to fertilized embryos and the definition of the start of life.

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/what-does-issue-1-mean-for-protecting-fertility-treatments-in-ohio-ocj1/

 

the peedee is saying the abortion rights and weed bills are going to pass. what sez uo ??

 

 

It looks like Ohio’s abortion amendment, legal marijuana will win big with voters: Today in Ohio

 

Published: Oct. 18, 2023

 

 

more:

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/10/it-looks-like-ohios-abortion-amendment-legal-marijuana-will-win-big-with-voters-today-in-ohio.html

Multiple bills introduced by Ohio republicans would absolutely outlaw IVF fertility treatment and imprison doctors that provide it. If you drive someone out of state for IVF you could be sued for $10k. 

Don’t believe them when they say they won’t restrict fertility treatment.

 

They could have written explicit exclusions for IVF into the bills - they chose not to.

 

https://ohiohouse.gov/legislation/134/hb480

Med Students Would Flee Ohio Under Abortion Ban

 

A chorus of medical students and other future health professionals is trying to get the word out that re-enactment of harsh abortion restrictions will erode their numbers in Ohio, which already suffer from one of greatest numbers of care deserts in the country. 

 

More than 500 students of the health professions attending Ohio universities signed on to a letter provided to the Capital Journal on Thursday. It urges voters across the state to vote yes on Issue 1 to keep harsh abortion restrictions from again having the force of law.

 

“Abortion bans endanger patients,” it says. “Many of us have taken, or will take, the Hippocratic Oath to do no harm to our patients. The patient-provider relationship is sacred and built on trust. Should an abortion ban go into effect, we will be unable to live up to the very promise that is the basis for our work as health professionals.” 

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/med-students-would-flee-ohio-under-abortion-ban-ocj1/

Issue 1: Ohioans Will Decide on Abortion Rights or Abortion Ban

 

Before Issue 1 was fully realized as a ballot initiative, Ohio Republicans met at last year’s March for Life, talking about the new landscape Roe v. Wade’s downfall would bring following the U.S. Supreme Court’s Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization decision.

 

“This is how we move forward in a pro-life manner and abolish abortion in our state,” state Rep. Jena Powell, R-Arcanum, said at the time.

 

But a ban already exists amid the ashes of Roe v. Wade and the battle over Issue 1, the proposed reproductive rights amendment this Nov. 7 that would protect access to abortion care, contraception, miscarriage care, fertility treatment, and continuing one’s pregnancy.

 

A law signed by Gov. Mike DeWine in 2019 knocked the law that kept abortions legal in Ohio up to 22 weeks back to six weeks after a pregnant person’s last menstrual period. That ban, which is currently on hold due to litigation, includes no exceptions for rape or incest. It was in effect in Ohio for 82 days before being halted temporarily by the courts. The Ohio Attorney General’s office has asked the Republican-controlled Ohio Supreme Court to lift the injunction on the six-week ban, with a decision currently still pending.

 

The law is called the “Heartbeat Bill” by supporters, based on the idea that detection of a fetal heartbeat happens at that time in pregnancy.

 

“If Issue 1 does not pass, abortion would still be legal in Ohio until a baby’s heartbeat can be detected,” the Catholic Conference of Ohio wrote in an FAQ encouraging a “no” vote on the ballot initiative.

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/issue-1-ohioans-will-decide-on-abortion-rights-or-abortion-ban-ocj1/

 

Less than one hour after polls closed, Wasserman calls the win for Issue 1. It’s a good night to be a Buckeye. 

https://x.com/redistrict/status/1722062934023483640?s=46&t=7i2eCUyWNZMfcPIb8zesTg

21 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Less than one hour after polls closed, Wasserman calls the win for Issue 1. It’s a good night to be a Buckeye. 

https://x.com/redistrict/status/1722062934023483640?s=46&t=7i2eCUyWNZMfcPIb8zesTg

Such amazing news, I was pretty worried, but that yes vote came out strong and never stopped. Hopefully issue 2 has a little more push. 

The hard-right shift has awoken the young voters, this victory and Andy's win in Kentucky tonight are the first big signs of a changing of the guard. 

 

 

 

 

Your lips to God’s ear. 

Good to see NEO, as usual, doing the heavy lifting in dragging the state out of the 1950s. 

Depending what the final margin is, there is maybe some slight evidence that the Right's scare tactics worked on some voters, as the margin may not end up quite as high as polling, but it still seems to be in the general range. The results are exactly why it was so important to reject August's Issue 1. 

Congrats Ohio, your rights are protected. 

35 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

Congrats Ohio, your rights are protected. 

 

Freedom won some today. Authoritarianism lost some. Here's hoping the next time they meet, Freedom wins again.

37 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

the margin may not end up quite as high as polling

 

On the latest episode of the FiveThirtyEight Podcast, a journalist who spent time in Ohio talking to voters said that she found a number of people who were confused by the two separate Issue 1s. Some of them thought that if they voted in August they didn’t need to vote again in November. Others were confused by the “Vote no on Issue 1 in August, then yes on Issue 1 in November” and likely voted wrong in one or the other. So, without the confusion of the August special election, the amendment would have passed by an even higher margin.

6 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

On the latest episode of the FiveThirtyEight Podcast, a journalist who spent time in Ohio talking to voters said that she found a number of people who were confused by the two separate Issue 1s. Some of them thought that if they voted in August they didn’t need to vote again in November. Others were confused by the “Vote no on Issue 1 in August, then yes on Issue 1 in November” and likely voted wrong in one or the other. So, without the confusion of the August special election, the amendment would have passed by an even higher margin.

 

That confusion was by design. It didn't ultimately work, but you may be right that it had an affect as well. 

This is not a discussion about the Kentucky gubernatorial election. Please move that to another thread if you want to discuss it 

congrats ohio on legitimizing women as human beings in charge of their own bodies. 

 

as for any men and karens who are against choice, please keep in mind history shows the number of abortions does not change much legal or not, but the safety of women does. and mind your business.

 

i am usually very down on young people not voting, but i have a feeling they stepped up to the plate here. i guess we will see, but i will be happy to be wrong on that. 👍

8 minutes ago, taestell said:

Lmao they really want young, left leaning Ohioans to show up to the polls don’t they

^^ We knew that was coming.

Edited November 8, 20231 yr by urb-a-saurus

Onward to anti-gerrymandering 2.0.  The legislature needs to more accurately represent the entire population of Ohio voters.  Making elections more competitive will strip some the arrogance of the current majority.

With 99% of the vote in, issue 1 passed 56.6 to 43.4. More than a 13 point margin - strong statement. Looks like the Western Reserve was a big part of this win along with all the urban and suburban areas - aka, where most people live.

 

43 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

Onward to anti-gerrymandering 2.0.  The legislature needs to more accurately represent the entire population of Ohio voters.  Making elections more competitive will strip some the arrogance of the current majority.

These people can't fathom that they're the authoritarian minority.

https://twitter.com/Tylerjoelb/status/1722088818277277780

1 hour ago, taestell said:

 

"We must figure out a new and innovative way to avoid complying with election results!"

On 8/14/2023 at 5:53 PM, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Let’s start a pool. My estimate is that the amendment passes 57-43. Issue 1 is as good a proxy as anything; polling indicates Ohioans support abortion rights; and weed being the only other significant issue on the ballot will bring out more likely supporters. I’m thinking the Venn diagram overlap of people who support loosening weed restrictions while increasing abortion restrictions is very small. 

Holy cow, maybe I should make predictions more often. 

19 minutes ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

"We must figure out a new and innovative way to avoid complying with election results!"

They just need the Ohio judiciary to rule that any future abortion restrictions they pass are constitutional, given the Issue 1 language, whether they really are or aren't.  Meanwhile, they will work toward a federal ban.

Edited November 8, 20231 yr by urb-a-saurus

2 hours ago, taestell said:

GOP - This is a States Rights issue.

State voters - OK abortion should be legal

GOP - NO, not like that. 

Can we shout out Clark County for voting Yes (albeit barely) on both issues last night? That was one of my biggest surprises.  It certainly could just be that turnout was really low since Trump wasn't on the ballot, but it's really nice see a legacy blue collar area vote for Democratic policies.

1 hour ago, urb-a-saurus said:

They just need the Ohio judiciary to rule that any future abortion restrictions they pass are constitutional, given the Issue 1 language, whether they really are or aren't.  Meanwhile, they will work toward a federal ban.

 

Based on the margin these campaigns are winning by in Republican states, I think that would inspire civil disobedience like nationwide strikes. 

35 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

Can we shout out Clark County for voting Yes (albeit barely) on both issues last night? That was one of my biggest surprises.  It certainly could just be that turnout was really low since Trump wasn't on the ballot, but it's really nice see a legacy blue collar area vote for Democratic policies.

 

Glad I wasn't the only one noticing that.

 

3 hours ago, taestell said:

 

I had to look up where Kitts Hill, Ohio is...and wow.

3 minutes ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Glad I wasn't the only one noticing that.

 

 

I had to look up where Kitts Hill, Ohio is...and wow.

Lol, did the same thing. How someone from Kitts Hill is speaker and representing the "views" of the state is one of the more comical things ever.

One of the more interesting results from last night is that Butler County (northwest suburbs of Cincinnati) originally voted for August's Issue 1 to raise the threshold for constitutional amendments to 60%. But then they turned around and voted to approve November's Issue 1 to enshrine abortion rights. It was close in both elections, but still kind of a head scratcher to me. Were there any other counties with this voting pattern?

Issue 1 from August is first. Issue 1 from November is second.

Unfortunately, the desired outcome of each was reversed, so it makes it more difficult to see, but there were several Columbus suburban counties who flipped as well. And Greene County to the east of Dayton flipped in the opposite direction, opposing both issues.

3 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

These people can't fathom that they're the authoritarian minority.

 

"bUt EvErYwHeRe I gO eVeRyOnE aGrEeS wItH mE"

 

-- says the politician who only talks to people at Megachurches and Non-Denominational Appalachian Churches

25 minutes ago, GCrites said:

 

"bUt EvErYwHeRe I gO eVeRyOnE aGrEeS wItH mE"

 

-- says the politician who only talks to people at Megachurches and Non-Denominational Appalachian Churches

We are learning that the silent majority is neither silent nor the majority. 

3 hours ago, 10albersa said:

Can we shout out Clark County for voting Yes (albeit barely) on both issues last night? That was one of my biggest surprises.  It certainly could just be that turnout was really low since Trump wasn't on the ballot, but it's really nice see a legacy blue collar area vote for Democratic policies.

 

Clark County must have the most evenly-matched number Republican and Democratic voters in the state. In August, Issue 1 lost by a single vote. And this time, the issue results were also very close. 

Edited November 8, 20231 yr by jonoh81

1 hour ago, ryanlammi said:

Issue 1 from August is on the left. Issue 1 from November is on the right.

Unfortunately, the desired outcome of each was reversed, so it makes it more difficult to see, but there were several Columbus suburban counties who flipped as well. And Greene County to the east of Dayton flipped in the opposite direction, opposing both issues.

 

The Columbus suburban counties are gradually moving left, even though Trump temporarily stalled that process in all but Delaware County. 

40 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Clark County must have the most evenly-matched number Republican and Democratic voters in the state. In August, Issue 1 lost by a single vote. And this time, the issue results were also very close. 

 

Clark and Greene are the new Delaware County since DelCo has turned solid blue.

1 hour ago, GCrites said:

 

Clark and Greene are the new Delaware County since DelCo has turned solid blue.

As the entire are grows I wouldn’t be surprised to see hocking county shift blue. 

Work Continues on Abortion Rights in Ohio Following Passage of Issue 1

 

The celebration of the passage of Issue 1 in Ohio went long into the night, but Wednesday morning, abortion rights advocates were back at work on next steps.

 

Issue 1 passed with 56.62% of the vote on Tuesday in unofficial results from the Ohio Secretary of State’s office. Of the 3.86 million votes cast across Ohio, the “yes” vote made up more than 2.1 million.

 

The newest amendment to the Ohio Constitution, which allows the right to abortion up to fetal viability and puts medical decisions in the hands of doctors and patients, will take effect 30 days after Election Day.

 

In the meantime, those who supported the amendment are working through court cases regarding abortion that were started before the amendment was put to voters.

 

“All of us who have been continuing to fight litigation will continue to work together to ensure that restrictions and bans that are currently in place are no longer in place,” said Lauren Blauvelt, co-chair of Ohioans United for Reproductive Rights, a coalition who led the amendment campaign.

 

While Blauvelt said the group was not yet revealing their legal strategy as they move forward, she acknowledged that previous lawsuits regarding the six-week abortion ban would have to be resolved.

 

That could mean a motion to dismiss the Hamilton County case in which the injunction was set for the six-week ban, or some other legal maneuver to deem the case moot based on the amendment’s passage.

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/work-continues-on-abortion-rights-in-ohio-following-passage-of-issue-1-ocj1/

 

Let's see who else is "unwilling to uphold the Ohio Constitution"

 

Sabrina Warner, who ousted former Attorney General Betty Montgomery from her seat on the Ohio Republican Party Central Committee in 2022, has resigned her seat. She cited the passage of Issue 1.

https://x.com/AndrewJTobias/status/1722802197463789765?s=20

 

“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” lol cool religion! Good to know that the people in charge of our government have such a normal worldview!

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Let's see who else is "unwilling to uphold the Ohio Constitution"

 

Sabrina Warner, who ousted former Attorney General Betty Montgomery from her seat on the Ohio Republican Party Central Committee in 2022, has resigned her seat. She cited the passage of Issue 1.

https://x.com/AndrewJTobias/status/1722802197463789765?s=20

 

Buh Bye!! Good riddance.

10 hours ago, KJP said:

Let's see who else is "unwilling to uphold the Ohio Constitution"

 

Sabrina Warner, who ousted former Attorney General Betty Montgomery from her seat on the Ohio Republican Party Central Committee in 2022, has resigned her seat. She cited the passage of Issue 1.

https://x.com/AndrewJTobias/status/1722802197463789765?s=20

 

Hahaha! More absolutely on-brand virtue-signaling from the Warners. Expect her equally-awful husband Jake to follow.

 

The Warners are the least-liked people in Granville, an otherwise friendly community that is largely more than willing to ignore personal politics and support locals. They and their families own a few local service businesses, which have been around a long time. Their politics were not unknown, but people still supported their businesses - they were overpriced, but largely provided good service.

 

A few years before COVID, they bought a well-established ice cream/sandwich shop called Knuckleheads, which was in the parking lot of our local IGA grocery store. They covered the bulletin boards in anti-abortion and other right wing propaganda. In the newspaper articles that ran when they bought the place, they both made it clear how Christian they were, and said they won't take cash because employees will steal it. Despite all of that, we (like most in Granville) still gave it a chance - but gave up after a few tries because it was mediocre at best, very overpriced, and always took forever.

 

Then COVID hit. Granville was generally pretty responsible, following lockdowns and mask mandates. The Warners decided to take their stand against "tyranny" by openly defying the mask orders, and posting all kinds of RWNJ/Q-anon propaganda inside and out of the building for all of town to see. They even posted billboards on 161 bragging about all of this. Eventually they were cited by the police, and played up the martyrdom angle. It was pretty obvious they were virtue signaling, looking to get likeminded people from across the region to go out of their way to eat there. She eventually got banned from the IGA (also their landlord) for some reason I can't recall. That was later followed by an anti-mask march originating from the restaurant that went inside the grocery, harassing employees and customers alike (she denies being responsible for that, nobody believes it). After Jan 6, they added a big "Trump won" flag to the front of their building, along with anti-vax, anti-LGTBQ, and other Q nonsense.

 

That isn't everything they've done to become disliked (protesting against Granville Pride, harassing the library about LGBTQ-positive books in the children's section, etc). None of this has further endeared them to anyone in town. They made their personal politics impossible to ignore, nobody wanted to be seen walking into Knuckleheads, or have a Jake's Property Service sign in their yard. They made our town look like idiots, and are equally disliked by local liberals and conservative alike (Granville is actually pretty politically balanced, though our conservatives are more Kasich than Trump).

 

They moved Knuckleheads to Buckeye Lake - and shortly after, also bought Johnstown Family Restaurant. They made a big show of how the "liberals" in Granville made it impossible to run their business. Despite moving to "freedom-loving" locations, neither business made it an another year - with the locals (on Yelp) all citing mediocre food and high prices. The Warners however framed it as no longer having the time to run each business, since they were both now on the Republican Central Committee.

12 hours ago, TheCOV said:

Buh Bye!! Good riddance.

Yes!!!!!

2 hours ago, mrCharlie said:

 

Hahaha! More absolutely on-brand virtue-signaling from the Warners. Expect her equally-awful husband Jake to follow.

 

The Warners are the least-liked people in Granville, an otherwise friendly community that is largely more than willing to ignore personal politics and support locals. They and their families own a few local service businesses, which have been around a long time. Their politics were not unknown, but people still supported their businesses - they were overpriced, but largely provided good service.

 

A few years before COVID, they bought a well-established ice cream/sandwich shop called Knuckleheads, which was in the parking lot of our local IGA grocery store. They covered the bulletin boards in anti-abortion and other right wing propaganda. In the newspaper articles that ran when they bought the place, they both made it clear how Christian they were, and said they won't take cash because employees will steal it. Despite all of that, we (like most in Granville) still gave it a chance - but gave up after a few tries because it was mediocre at best, very overpriced, and always took forever.

 

Then COVID hit. Granville was generally pretty responsible, following lockdowns and mask mandates. The Warners decided to take their stand against "tyranny" by openly defying the mask orders, and posting all kinds of RWNJ/Q-anon propaganda inside and out of the building for all of town to see. They even posted billboards on 161 bragging about all of this. Eventually they were cited by the police, and played up the martyrdom angle. It was pretty obvious they were virtue signaling, looking to get likeminded people from across the region to go out of their way to eat there. She eventually got banned from the IGA (also their landlord) for some reason I can't recall. That was later followed by an anti-mask march originating from the restaurant that went inside the grocery, harassing employees and customers alike (she denies being responsible for that, nobody believes it). After Jan 6, they added a big "Trump won" flag to the front of their building, along with anti-vax, anti-LGTBQ, and other Q nonsense.

 

That isn't everything they've done to become disliked (protesting against Granville Pride, harassing the library about LGBTQ-positive books in the children's section, etc). None of this has further endeared them to anyone in town. They made their personal politics impossible to ignore, nobody wanted to be seen walking into Knuckleheads, or have a Jake's Property Service sign in their yard. They made our town look like idiots, and are equally disliked by local liberals and conservative alike (Granville is actually pretty politically balanced, though our conservatives are more Kasich than Trump).

 

They moved Knuckleheads to Buckeye Lake - and shortly after, also bought Johnstown Family Restaurant. They made a big show of how the "liberals" in Granville made it impossible to run their business. Despite moving to "freedom-loving" locations, neither business made it an another year - with the locals (on Yelp) all citing mediocre food and high prices. The Warners however framed it as no longer having the time to run each business, since they were both now on the Republican Central Committee.

 

But it's the Left that is obsessed with identity politics. It's like every conservative has one of those snare drums that you strap on and constantly hits it while yelling "I'm a Republican! Look at me! I'm not a sheep!"