Unless there was a constitution convention I'm unaware of, it's not the "New Constitution of Ohio", it's the original Constitution with a new amendment approved by the process defined in the original Constitution.

Nuh uh, going back to how things worked for 50 years until last year is RADICAL

It seems an increasing number of Ohio and national Republicans are saying that Ohio lawmakers should just completely ignore the results of the vote and will otherwise do whatever they can to make sure what the people voted for won't be the reality. It's all out in the open now. The Republican Party is a danger to democratic rule at every level of government.

Sadly even with them saying this and ignoring the people of Ohio, many idiots will still vote for every single one of them. 

Edited November 10, 20231 yr by VintageLife

2 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

It seems an increasing number of Ohio and national Republicans are saying that Ohio lawmakers should just completely ignore the results of the vote and will otherwise do whatever they can to make sure what the people voted for won't be the reality. It's all out in the open now. The Republican Party is a danger to democratic rule at every level of government.

People are frustrated, that is what it is. It is a shame because in the last 15 years morality in this world has been turned on its head and killing babies is somehow a good thing. It was a sad day if you ask me. 

 

That being said, They will calm down and nothing will happen. Certainly if some progressive groups try and stretch the law to the absurdity you will see pushback and new amendments to chip away at things, but then you end up with reasonable legislation in the end if people cannot police themselves.

2 minutes ago, VintageLife said:

Sadly even with them saying this and ignoring the people of Ohio, many idiots will still vote for every single one of them. 

I would not come away from the abortion amendment that the Republicans will lose control of the statehouse or any Ohio seats from this. I think as a single issue, Ohioans have shown they favor abortion. However, when you run a race that has multiple issues involved, people make choices on things other than abortion and generally Republicans have won on the other issues in Ohio. 

 

If anything, this amendment is bad news for Sherrod Brown. He cant really run on the abortion issue and protecting  abortion since it has been guaranteed in Ohio now. So those who may have voted for him solely because his stances on abortion would be less motivated to do so now since his position on the issue is moot. It is one less thing he can use to blunt a GOP opponent going forward since it is no longer a relevant issue in Ohio

If the Ohio GOP buries its head in the sand about the lessons learned from Issue 1 passing by a large margin and continues trying to restrict abortion rights beyond what the newly passed constitutional amendment says, yes it will cause them to lose seats. It will fire up the Democrats and swing voters to push for gerrymandering reform even harder in 2024, which will ultimately reduce the number of safe GOP seats in the Legislature and the congressional delegation.

 

Look at Brown's potential opponents in 2024: Bernie Moreno and Frank LaRose. LaRose was the poster boy for the August special election and No on 1 for the November election. If LaRose doesn't think his actions trying to prevent Issue 1 from passing will be used to smear his Senate campaign, he needs to fire every single one of his campaign advisors. Moreno will need to be sufficiently pro-life to make it out of the GOP primary, the same GOP primary voters who pushed for the 6 week abortion ban. Abortion will 100% continue to play a role in 2024.

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

People are frustrated, that is what it is. It is a shame because in the last 15 years morality in this world has been turned on its head and killing babies is somehow a good thing. It was a sad day if you ask me. 

 

That being said, They will calm down and nothing will happen. Certainly if some progressive groups try and stretch the law to the absurdity you will see pushback and new amendments to chip away at things, but then you end up with reasonable legislation in the end if people cannot police themselves.

 

When Democrats get frustrated, they don't sign pledges to ignore the democratic will of the voters. When Democrats lose, they don't spread claims about voter fraud or attack the US Capitol building. Losing sucks, I get it. But there's absolutely no rational excuse for what these people are doing or saying. It's a direct attack on all of our democratic rights and it's incredibly dangerous. You all are outright risking civil violence.

 

The actual problem, though, is not that Republicans and conservatives are merely frustrated. No, they're absolutely furious that not everyone shares their personal worldview. As you just did now, implying that this vote was somehow pro-baby murder, you can't seem to grasp that most people just don't agree with you whatsoever, and like many others on the Right, can't deal with that reality in a healthy, constructive way. Your claim that progressives will try to stretch the law to absurdity, but the *PEOPLE OF OHIO* voted for this, regardless of your personal view that it goes too far. The bill was reasonable to the majority of the voters already. Your side failed to make your case and you lost. It's that simple.  You don't get to just change the rules when something doesn't go your way, or endless mulligans to get the results you want.  

 

And we have already seen Republican state legislatures ignore the will of the voters. We saw it in states like Virginia over marijuana legalization, we saw it in Ohio over gerrymandering, etc. When Republicans lose now, they are increasingly giving up on the democratic system entirely. They're now trying very hard to pretend like the US never even was a democracy to justify the direction they're going in. So why should we necessarily trust that this rhetoric will "calm down" and not lead anywhere? I wouldn't and don't trust the Right, as they continuously show their hand. 

Edited November 10, 20231 yr by jonoh81

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I would not come away from the abortion amendment that the Republicans will lose control of the statehouse or any Ohio seats from this. I think as a single issue, Ohioans have shown they favor abortion. However, when you run a race that has multiple issues involved, people make choices on things other than abortion and generally Republicans have won on the other issues in Ohio. 

 

If anything, this amendment is bad news for Sherrod Brown. He cant really run on the abortion issue and protecting  abortion since it has been guaranteed in Ohio now. So those who may have voted for him solely because his stances on abortion would be less motivated to do so now since his position on the issue is moot. It is one less thing he can use to blunt a GOP opponent going forward since it is no longer a relevant issue in Ohio

 

Brown can absolutely run on this issue considering Republicans have promised to continue attacking those rights and ignoring the will of the people. And they absolutely will. Also, the last time he was elected, abortion was still protected under Roe, so he didn't even need it to win. 

3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

...

If anything, this amendment is bad news for Sherrod Brown. He cant really run on the abortion issue and protecting  abortion since it has been guaranteed in Ohio now. So those who may have voted for him solely because his stances on abortion would be less motivated to do so now since his position on the issue is moot. It is one less thing he can use to blunt a GOP opponent going forward since it is no longer a relevant issue in Ohio

We can keep up the motivation by saying, "vote for Senator Brown.  Help prevent a federal abortion ban."

It's progressive groups should be worried about stretching the law?

 

DECEPTIVE OHIO ISSUE 1 MISLED THE PUBLIC BUT DOESN'T REPEAL OUR LAWS

Foreign Billionaires Don't Get to Make Ohio Laws

November 9, 2023

 

COLUMBUS, OH - Ohio Legislators will be introducing several bills to address this issue in the coming weeks. 

 

“Foreign billionaires don't get to make Ohio laws,” said Jennifer Gross (R-West Chester), pointing to millions from billionaires outside America that helped fund Issue 1. Gross added, “This is foreign election interference, and it will not stand.”

 

“Issue 1 doesn't repeal a single Ohio law, in fact, it doesn't even mention one,” said Representative Bill Dean (R-Xenia). “The amendment’s language is dangerously vague and unconstrained, and can be weaponized to attack parental rights or defend rapists, pedophiles, and human traffickers.” 

 

Melanie Miller (R-Ashland) said, “We will continue to be a voice for every child in their mother's womb who cannot speak for themselves.” 

 

Representative Beth Lear (R-Galena) stated, “No amendment can overturn the God given rights with which we were born.”

 

To prevent mischief by pro-abortion courts with Issue 1, Ohio legislators will consider removing jurisdiction from the judiciary over this ambiguous ballot initiative. The Ohio legislature alone will consider what, if any, modifications to make to existing laws based on public hearings and input from legal experts on both sides. 

 

https://ohiohouse.gov/news/republican/deceptive-ohio-issue-1-misled-the-public-but-doesnt-repeal-our-laws-117412

52 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

It's progressive groups should be worried about stretching the law?

 

DECEPTIVE OHIO ISSUE 1 MISLED THE PUBLIC BUT DOESN'T REPEAL OUR LAWS

Foreign Billionaires Don't Get to Make Ohio Laws

November 9, 2023

 

COLUMBUS, OH - Ohio Legislators will be introducing several bills to address this issue in the coming weeks. 

 

“Foreign billionaires don't get to make Ohio laws,” said Jennifer Gross (R-West Chester), pointing to millions from billionaires outside America that helped fund Issue 1. Gross added, “This is foreign election interference, and it will not stand.”

 

“Issue 1 doesn't repeal a single Ohio law, in fact, it doesn't even mention one,” said Representative Bill Dean (R-Xenia). “The amendment’s language is dangerously vague and unconstrained, and can be weaponized to attack parental rights or defend rapists, pedophiles, and human traffickers.” 

 

Melanie Miller (R-Ashland) said, “We will continue to be a voice for every child in their mother's womb who cannot speak for themselves.” 

 

Representative Beth Lear (R-Galena) stated, “No amendment can overturn the God given rights with which we were born.”

 

To prevent mischief by pro-abortion courts with Issue 1, Ohio legislators will consider removing jurisdiction from the judiciary over this ambiguous ballot initiative. The Ohio legislature alone will consider what, if any, modifications to make to existing laws based on public hearings and input from legal experts on both sides. 

 

https://ohiohouse.gov/news/republican/deceptive-ohio-issue-1-misled-the-public-but-doesnt-repeal-our-laws-117412

 

The comments made by some of these representatives on their social media accounts are downright scary. They will absolutely burn the country to the ground to force their view on us all. 

15 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

When Democrats get frustrated, they don't sign pledges to ignore the democratic will of the voters. When Democrats lose, they don't spread claims about voter fraud or attack the US Capitol building. Losing sucks, I get it. But there's absolutely no rational excuse for what these people are doing or saying. It's a direct attack on all of our democratic rights and it's incredibly dangerous. You all are outright risking civil violence.

 

The actual problem, though, is not that Republicans and conservatives are merely frustrated. No, they're absolutely furious that not everyone shares their personal worldview. As you just did now, implying that this vote was somehow pro-baby murder, you can't seem to grasp that most people just don't agree with you whatsoever, and like many others on the Right, can't deal with that reality in a healthy, constructive way. Your claim that progressives will try to stretch the law to absurdity, but the *PEOPLE OF OHIO* voted for this, regardless of your personal view that it goes too far. The bill was reasonable to the majority of the voters already. Your side failed to make your case and you lost. It's that simple.  You don't get to just change the rules when something doesn't go your way, or endless mulligans to get the results you want.  

 

And we have already seen Republican state legislatures ignore the will of the voters. We saw it in states like Virginia over marijuana legalization, we saw it in Ohio over gerrymandering, etc. When Republicans lose now, they are increasingly giving up on the democratic system entirely. They're now trying very hard to pretend like the US never even was a democracy to justify the direction they're going in. So why should we necessarily trust that this rhetoric will "calm down" and not lead anywhere? I wouldn't and don't trust the Right, as they continuously show their hand. 

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 thank you! I don’t understand how it’s so hard for the right to understand. If you aren’t for abortion, just don’t get one! It isn’t a hard concept, stop trying to control people. 

 

14 hours ago, urb-a-saurus said:

We can keep up the motivation by saying, "vote for Senator Brown.  Help prevent a federal abortion ban."

It will most definitely continue to be a huge issue in 2024.  Brown will insist on it because he will need all the help he can get.  

1 hour ago, jonoh81 said:

 

The comments made by some of these representatives on their social media accounts are downright scary. They will absolutely burn the country to the ground to force their view on us all. 

 

I haven't seen any of those posts. I could maybe entertain the argument that representatives are frustrated and blowing off steam on their social media accounts. But when there are multiple press releases from representatives, including the leaders of both chambers, that line of reasoning doesn't hold much water....

 

Speaker Stephens Issues Statement on Issue 1 Result

135th GA Republicans respond to Issue 1 passage

They got away with ignoring the anti-gerrymandering result.  You can bet they've been working hard to figure out how to stymy Issue 1, and the strategies will become increasingly authoritarian.

Edited November 11, 20231 yr by urb-a-saurus

3 hours ago, Cleburger said:

 

It will most definitely continue to be a huge issue in 2024.  Brown will insist on it because he will need all the help he can get.  

 

If blue voters actually show up like they did in 2018, Brown should be fine. The rhetoric that he's in danger is entirely based on the belief that Ohio is now a deep red state, but if anything, the actual political makeup of the state is slightly more favorable for a Democrat than a Republican since the last time he was elected. This is because the only growing demographics in the state are those that tend to overwhelmingly vote Democratic. Democrats, anyone left-of-center and those conservatives who still value our democracy should all turn out to vote for Brown. 

2 hours ago, Luke_S said:

 

I haven't seen any of those posts. I could maybe entertain the argument that representatives are frustrated and blowing off steam on their social media accounts. But when there are multiple press releases from representatives, including the leaders of both chambers, that line of reasoning doesn't hold much water....

 

Speaker Stephens Issues Statement on Issue 1 Result

135th GA Republicans respond to Issue 1 passage

 

Here's an example from Jennifer Gross, one of the signees of that pledge. These people are extremists, and engage in lies about what happens during an abortion. When people like her frame this debate as godly people fighting against people who want to rip babies apart, you quickly realize they are capable of anything.

 

Edited November 11, 20231 yr by jonoh81

23 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

People are frustrated, that is what it is. It is a shame because in the last 15 years morality in this world has been turned on its head and killing babies is somehow a good thing. It was a sad day if you ask me. 

Oh really? Since you seem to always have it all figured out what have you done today to help the homeless guy standing down on the corner? To help your local drug addict get their life together? To help your elderly neighbor make sure she's got enough food and isn't felling all alone? Conservatives love to talk where's your action?

22 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

And we have already seen Republican state legislatures ignore the will of the voters. We saw it in states like Virginia over marijuana legalization, we saw it in Ohio over gerrymandering, etc. When Republicans lose now, they are increasingly giving up on the democratic system entirely. They're now trying very hard to pretend like the US never even was a democracy to justify the direction they're going in. So why should we necessarily trust that this rhetoric will "calm down" and not lead anywhere? I wouldn't and don't trust the Right, as they continuously show their hand. 

And these republicans who hate government so much have no problem envisioning an authoritarian one. It's so effed up.

Do I spot some poetic license being used on the term "baby?"

On 11/11/2023 at 4:05 PM, Clefan98 said:

Oh really? Since you seem to always have it all figured out what have you done today to help the homeless guy standing down on the corner? To help your local drug addict get their life together? To help your elderly neighbor make sure she's got enough food and isn't felling all alone? Conservatives love to talk where's your action?

I am glad you presume that I do nothing for the community. Like many progressives, you seem to think it is all governments responsibility and you can just vote for someone to take car of the problem for you. That is the perfect example of neglecting your responsibility as a citizen if you ask me.  

But if you want to know, I actively contribute money to causes that I find worthwhile and give my time at those causes too. 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:18 PM, jonoh81 said:

When Democrats get frustrated, they don't sign pledges to ignore the democratic will of the voters. When Democrats lose, they don't spread claims about voter fraud or attack the US Capitol building. Losing sucks, I get it. But there's absolutely no rational excuse for what these people are doing or saying. It's a direct attack on all of our democratic rights and it's incredibly dangerous. You all are outright risking civil violence.

Well, they actually do similar stuff and they act pretty similarly too but it is easy to overlook when your side won. But lets at least acknowledge that both sides should get some short window to vent. WHen you have an emotionally charged issue and people lost, you got to give them a little time to vent the frustration and come down. Many in the GOP are angry at the right wing for not offering good policy to protect life and acknowledge that there needs to be reasonable exceptions, while at the same time there are others in the the GOP who feel that there are too many squishy Republicans who were not strong enough in their convictions. Just like when the Dems lose, what you are seeing is a natural response to the loss.  It will die down in a couple of weeks at most and then the more serious minds will formulate an actual policy plan. However, just like those who won like to spike the football, you also need to allow space for those who lost to vent. 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:18 PM, jonoh81 said:

As you just did now, implying that this vote was somehow pro-baby murder, you can't seem to grasp that most people just don't agree with you whatsoever, and like many others on the Right, can't deal with that reality in a healthy, constructive way. Your claim that progressives will try to stretch the law to absurdity, but the *PEOPLE OF OHIO* voted for this, regardless of your personal view that it goes too far.

I Can certainly grasp the will of the voters. This is what they voted for and I respect that this is the law of the land. It makes me sad. I would hope as a people we would be better than this and yes, i believe abortion is killing a baby. You disagree, I get that, but there are a lot of people who share my opinion. THat does not make them evil, or wrong or anything. I find it to be a sad state of affairs on society, but at the same time, it is the law of the land and would need to be respected. 

 

On 11/10/2023 at 6:18 PM, jonoh81 said:

And we have already seen Republican state legislatures ignore the will of the voters. We saw it in states like Virginia over marijuana legalization, we saw it in Ohio over gerrymandering, etc. When Republicans lose now, they are increasingly giving up on the democratic system entirely. They're now trying very hard to pretend like the US never even was a democracy to justify the direction they're going in. So why should we necessarily trust that this rhetoric will "calm down" and not lead anywhere? I wouldn't and don't trust the Right, as they continuously show their hand. 

What is scary is your rhetoric against the conservatives and those you disagree with. You like to make things black or white depending on where you stand on the issue. It is never that way. If you stop and examine both sides and other perspectives, you may at least see the other side as human as opposed to the animals you like to make them out to be. That would go a long way to bringing back civil discourse in politics.

On 11/10/2023 at 6:23 PM, jonoh81 said:

 

Brown can absolutely run on this issue considering Republicans have promised to continue attacking those rights and ignoring the will of the people. And they absolutely will. Also, the last time he was elected, abortion was still protected under Roe, so he didn't even need it to win. 

Yes, but Ohio did not have a Constitutional Amendment that protected the right so all abortion access was guaranteed by the federal right. Now, you no longer have a federal right to abortion and up to the states at this point. 

 

But Brown's chances will depend a lot on who comes out of the primary. I think if Bernie Moreno wins, Brown will cruise to victory. LaRose will give him a very competitive race, but he may have been wounded for the next couple of years with the whole Issue 1 debacle and how much political capital he spent on it. If Dolan wins the nomination, I think he would likely be a favorite in the race over Brown and would stand a decent shot of winning.  There are certainly a lot of things that would have to happen first before you even get to the abortion issue at this point. 

 

4 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

But lets at least acknowledge that both sides should get some short window to vent. WHen you have an emotionally charged issue and people lost, you got to give them a little time to vent the frustration and come down.

Again with the “muh both sides” bulls**t as if the “two sides” are somehow similar. One literally fomented insurrection and ignores the will of voters, but rubes like you are still trolling here acting as if this is totally normal and acceptable behavior.

Edited November 13, 20231 yr by Gordon Bombay

This new far right Republican party is a serious danger to democracy.  Can you imagine if the Democrats started pulling some of these antics after an election?  These far right wingers would be out in the streets protesting with their guns.  This issue passed with a Yes by double percentage points.  Now, in typical Ohio Republican fashion, they don't like the results so they want to see how they can tweak the law.  You're just going to piss more people off.  

 

There are also voters out there claiming to be Libertarian, but at the same time saying No to Issue 1.  If that is the case, you are not Libertarian, you are a conservative Republican.  Get these people out of office. 

Edited November 13, 20231 yr by MissinOhio

6 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

Again with the “muh both sides” bulls**t as if the “two sides” are somehow similar. One literally fomented insurrection and ignores the will of voters, but rubes like you are still trolling here acting as if this is totally normal and acceptable behavior.

I have never said that the riot at the capitol was normal behavior. It was an embarrassment, especially for people who should know better. But let's not forget in 2016 when people rioted in the streets causing property damage and other damage when Trump won the election.  And no, I do not pretend that a bunch of angry rioters in 2016 is the same level as storming the capitol but, let's also pretend that 2021 was more than a riot that had a chance to accomplish anything on the rioters end. It was really nothing more than an angry temper tantrum. It is not acceptable and should never be condoned.

What I did say that if a poster on a message board, after a loss of an election vents for a few days, or the politicians that led the loss want to vent for a few days, that is normal. If it goes on longer than a week, then you can get concerned. 

46 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I have never said that the riot at the capitol was normal behavior. It was an embarrassment, especially for people who should know better. But let's not forget in 2016 when people rioted in the streets causing property damage and other damage when Trump won the election.  And no, I do not pretend that a bunch of angry rioters in 2016 is the same level as storming the capitol but, let's also pretend that 2021 was more than a riot that had a chance to accomplish anything on the rioters end. It was really nothing more than an angry temper tantrum. It is not acceptable and should never be condoned.

What I did say that if a poster on a message board, after a loss of an election vents for a few days, or the politicians that led the loss want to vent for a few days, that is normal. If it goes on longer than a week, then you can get concerned. 

 

It's disappointing to even attempt an apples to apples comparison. Property damage is wrong. But there's no comparison to storming the seat of government in an attempt to overturn an election. 

 

1 minute ago, YABO713 said:

 

It's disappointing to even attempt an apples to apples comparison. Property damage is wrong. But there's no comparison to storming the seat of government in an attempt to overturn an election. 

 

If you boil it down, it is pretty similar. This was not some organized coup attempt. They were never going to overthrow the government. Even if they had more success, what would the end game have been. They had no plan. It was nothing more than a mass temper tantrum where Trump fanned the flames.

As time goes by, certainly Trump's actions behind the scenes with trying to steal the election through his alternate slates of electors are troubling, but a few thousand idiots storming a building was a temper tantrum. They had no plans to actually overthrow the government. What were they going to do if they were successful?? They would have eventually calmed down and come to reality and then let government take over again. 

 

Trump and his enablers, they were the ones who had some complicity here and that is a bit of a different story. I think you need to separate the two of them. 

 

12 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

This was not some organized coup attempt.

 

Yes, it was. An attempt to assassinate the sitting VP and House Speaker equates to a bit more than a temper tantrum. Any honest, unbiased critical thinker would agree.

 

Your ability to whitewash GOP terrorism is just as impressive as your talent for brushing aside inconvenient truths.

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

If you boil it down, it is pretty similar. This was not some organized coup attempt. They were never going to overthrow the government. Even if they had more success, what would the end game have been. They had no plan. It was nothing more than a mass temper tantrum where Trump fanned the flames.

 

BLM Protestors weren't looking to take hostages (congress) or were chanting hang Mike Pence, and certainly didn't have a guillotine out front of the capitol. Was Trump or Congress ever forced to take their gas masks with them and huddle in their safe area at any point during Trump's term? Like, what are you even saying. Second, I was at the Women's March in 2017 and it was extremely peaceful but it helped people organize and make action plans (and spurred GOTV actions, nobody stormed the capitol, nobody killed anyone, etc etc). How soon you forget in your attempt to put lipstick on a pig.

 

Back to abortion, it's not up to you or your party to defy the will of the people, it passed and did quite dramatically. Republican lawmakers love a dysfunctional government (it makes them look good and gives them reason to further dismantle "the system"), but someone from an unconstitutionally gerrymandered district has no place forcing their convictions on the majority of the state.

Edited November 13, 20231 yr by GISguy

Speaking of overthrowing the will of the people 

 

 

Well said: @MissinOhio, @YABO713, @Clefan98,  and@GISguy .

The simple fact here is that although this particular forum topic is about abortion, the fallout of Issue 1 has has ramifications well outside its language (and its implementation is being effected by recent national politics). All that being: Republicans' refusal to carry out the will of the people as if it's somehow negotiable. Whether that's the results of the 2020 Presidential Election (the current Speaker of the House for Christ's sake refused to certify the election) or the populace voting overwhelmingly for Issue 1. 

 

This isn't "venting," this is purely and simply a radical party (that has done nothing but allow themselves to become further and further radicalized ever since Obama's first election) attempting to consistently thwart the will of the people. There's no justification for it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

If you boil it down, it is pretty similar. This was not some organized coup attempt. They were never going to overthrow the government. Even if they had more success, what would the end game have been. They had no plan. It was nothing more than a mass temper tantrum where Trump fanned the flames.

As time goes by, certainly Trump's actions behind the scenes with trying to steal the election through his alternate slates of electors are troubling, but a few thousand idiots storming a building was a temper tantrum. They had no plans to actually overthrow the government. What were they going to do if they were successful?? They would have eventually calmed down and come to reality and then let government take over again. 

 

Trump and his enablers, they were the ones who had some complicity here and that is a bit of a different story. I think you need to separate the two of them. 

What? No plans to overthrow the government? Then please explain the Proud Boys and their conviction of seditious conspiracy? This was a detailed plan that included Trump and if you can’t understand that then you’re not devoted to reality.

3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

If you boil it down, it is pretty similar. This was not some organized coup attempt. They were never going to overthrow the government. Even if they had more success, what would the end game have been. They had no plan. It was nothing more than a mass temper tantrum where Trump fanned the flames.

As time goes by, certainly Trump's actions behind the scenes with trying to steal the election through his alternate slates of electors are troubling, but a few thousand idiots storming a building was a temper tantrum. They had no plans to actually overthrow the government. What were they going to do if they were successful?? They would have eventually calmed down and come to reality and then let government take over again. 

 

Trump and his enablers, they were the ones who had some complicity here and that is a bit of a different story. I think you need to separate the two of them. 

Back off the kool-aide and answer that wake-up call before it's too late. 

It's like Republicans are trying to be religion's daddy and spoiling it by trying to give it everything it wants no matter the consequences.

1 hour ago, Tdianzo said:

What? No plans to overthrow the government? Then please explain the Proud Boys and their conviction of seditious conspiracy? This was a detailed plan that included Trump and if you can’t understand that then you’re not devoted to reality.

 

30 minutes ago, TheCOV said:

Back off the kool-aide and answer that wake-up call before it's too late. 

Let's actually look at the difference between "Overthrow" the government and create a riot. 

 

Did a group or rioters storm the capitol and create a lot of damage, yes, that is true. Did they chant they wanted to kick out the bums, yes. But what was actually going to be the result if they got into Congress and even caused harm to Senators??

Do you actually think that their actions (the rioters, which are separate from the Trump issue) actually could overthrow the government? From a practical standpoint, the National Guard would come in and restore order and while it would have been a further stain on things, order would have been restored, Congress would have moved forward and Joe Biden would still be president today.   

A coup to overthrow the government is an organized activity that is well coordinated and has a plan on how actually run the government once they get control. There was no plan in this case, just anger and buffoonery by a bunch of asshats who loved Trump. They wanted to be seen and take their anger out and they obviously were pretty stupid in their actions. Even if they were more successful in their actions, they still had no plans to take over, they did not care and just wanted to break things. This is the difference. 

 

Lets keep things in perspective here. When you talk about a government coup, this was not it. 

3 hours ago, GISguy said:

Back to abortion, it's not up to you or your party to defy the will of the people, it passed and did quite dramatically. Republican lawmakers love a dysfunctional government (it makes them look good and gives them reason to further dismantle "the system"), but someone from an unconstitutionally gerrymandered district has no place forcing their convictions on the majority of the state.

For one, I have never talked about defying the will of the people, so do not include me in that conversation. Some people may take that position, but that is a few outliers who are angry at this point. When the dust settles, things will work itself out.  Will abortion be an issue in the future, yes, but it will be on the fringes. There will still be battles on when it is reasonable to have an abortion and what is viability and when parents are required to give consent for their children. You will have battles over public funding for abortions. That is where teh battle lines will be drawn and those are worthy battles to have. However, at least for the next 5-10 years the 20 week standard will be pretty much accepted.  

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Speaking of overthrowing the will of the people 

 

 

Nothing more then venting and like most proposed legislation it does not stand a chance at passing. Also, it is purely Unconstitutional since the legislature has no authority to remove judicial review from the process. Not anything to get your panties in a wad about.

^ The goal was to stop the imminent certification of Biden's victory to give more time for other efforts to work.  One desirable result for thr GOP would have been to force the decision to the House, where Republicans have more state delegations.  This was all right after the VP refused to invalidate Biden electors and use the fake slates.  LOL @ tantrum.  "Tantrum only" does not apply to the partipating paramilitaries, although it might apply to many of the "normies" they riled up.  Read up on the trials.

Edited November 13, 20231 yr by urb-a-saurus

Literally the same mindset that made them feel entitled enough to assault the US Capitol after losing an election.
 

21 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Nothing more then venting and like most proposed legislation it does not stand a chance at passing. Also, it is purely Unconstitutional since the legislature has no authority to remove judicial review from the process. Not anything to get your panties in a wad about. 

6 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

Literally the same mindset that made them feel entitled enough to assault the US Capitol after losing an election.
 

Exactly, none of this is venting. It’s an indication of what they plan on doing if they gain power again. 

17 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Well, they actually do similar stuff and they act pretty similarly too but it is easy to overlook when your side won.

 

I'm sorry, but this is the height of intellectual dishonesty. I just don't how you can type this stuff and expect to be taken seriously.

 

17 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

But lets at least acknowledge that both sides should get some short window to vent. WHen you have an emotionally charged issue and people lost, you got to give them a little time to vent the frustration and come down. Many in the GOP are angry at the right wing for not offering good policy to protect life and acknowledge that there needs to be reasonable exceptions, while at the same time there are others in the the GOP who feel that there are too many squishy Republicans who were not strong enough in their convictions.

 

But that's what you guys aren't understanding. The majority does not want the GOP's proposals, nor does the majority see them as reasonable. The "good policy" in this case would actually be essentially a return to Roe or what Ohioans just passed. 

Furthermore, if Republican voters were so angry with the Right for promoting extremist, unpopular policies, they wouldn't keep voting for them, with Trump being at the very top of that extreme heap given he made it possible to overturn Roe in the first place. So I completely reject the premise you're pushing that normal GOP voters want reason and compromise. They absolute want Jim Jordan and Matt Huffman and Jennifer Gross and Donald Trump and their twisted vision for America. 

 

17 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Just like when the Dems lose, what you are seeing is a natural response to the loss.  It will die down in a couple of weeks at most and then the more serious minds will formulate an actual policy plan. However, just like those who won like to spike the football, you also need to allow space for those who lost to vent. 

 

Just like when Dems lose what? When Dems lose, they concede and go back to the drawing board like normal people. You really have absolutely no argument that there's an equivalency. 

And no, the public does not have to give the Right time to vent, especially when that venting involves discussion of going as far as undermining the entire judiciary to ignore a democratic result. That is not normal behavior or normal venting, that is downright fascist. 

 

17 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

I Can certainly grasp the will of the voters. This is what they voted for and I respect that this is the law of the land. It makes me sad. I would hope as a people we would be better than this and yes, i believe abortion is killing a baby. You disagree, I get that, but there are a lot of people who share my opinion. THat does not make them evil, or wrong or anything. I find it to be a sad state of affairs on society, but at the same time, it is the law of the land and would need to be respected. 

 

They can believe whatever they want, no one is saying otherwise. But we're talking about tangible actions that infringe on the rights of others because of those beliefs. It's well beyond just a matter of simple, respectful disagreement. You all tried to remove rights from women and were smacked down. Now you're threatening even more rights to get your way.

 

17 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

What is scary is your rhetoric against the conservatives and those you disagree with. You like to make things black or white depending on where you stand on the issue. It is never that way. If you stop and examine both sides and other perspectives, you may at least see the other side as human as opposed to the animals you like to make them out to be. That would go a long way to bringing back civil discourse in politics.

 

Supporting democracy vs not supporting democracy is pretty black and white, though. Conservatives are absolutely presenting themselves as a threat to democracy right now. 

25 minutes ago, VintageLife said:

Exactly, none of this is venting. It’s an indication of what they plan on doing if they gain power again. 

 

And if/when they do it, Brutus will move the goalposts and claim fascism won't be that bad and the Dems are doing it anyway.

16 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

^ The goal was to stop the imminent certification of Biden's victory to give more time for other efforts to work.  One desirable result for thr GOP would have been to force the decision to the House, where Republicans have more state delegations.  This was all right after the VP refused to invalidate Biden electors and use the fake slates.  LOL @ tantrum.  "Tantrum only" does not apply to the partipating paramilitaries, although it might apply to many of the "normies" they riled up.  Read up on the trials.

Ok, let's play this out. Obviously, the end game would have been for Trump to remain president. It was a half baked idea that would never have worked and the majority of them really did not have a plan besides "get angry" to actually make it happen. That is really the epitome of a tantrum.

 

Assume, they breached congress and took over the Senate chambers, then what? It's not like they could have the ability to take action and vote Trump president. You need Congress to do that. So, they control the building, Capitol police and National Guard and other peace keeping forces are brought in to restore order. The idiots get kicked out and order is restored. 

 

To have a coup, you need the military behind you and those at all levels of government to be able to take control by force. THat was never going to happen in this case. Hence, it was really a bunch of idiots rioting.

 

Now the Trump case with the false electors is a completely separate issue, but again that was a poorly thought out plan on their part that really had no opportunity for success. That plan though was definitely a more significant and serious plan that would upend the rule of law and will of the people, but again that was still something that would not have actually had a realistic chance of succeeding. It was a clown show by a bunch of desparate people who were quick to buy into Donald Trump's vanity project.

2 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

a bunch of desparate people who were quick to buy into Donald Trump's vanity project.

 

All helped along by folks like you still making excuses for their actions. 

26 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

All helped along by folks like you still making excuses for their actions. 

 

They're known as useful tools. Hitler had those too.

Edited November 13, 20231 yr by Clefan98

25 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

All helped along by folks like you still making excuses for their actions. 

Living in reality and not getting your panties in a wad based on sensational journalism is the key to making rational decisions. You should try it.

3 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Living in reality and not getting your panties in a wad based on sensational journalism is the key to making rational decisions. You should try it.

 

Election Deniers serve in Congress and our Statehouse, you're defending these people as if J6 and their ideology was a silly idea. 

35 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Ok, let's play this out. Obviously, the end game would have been for Trump to remain president. It was a half baked idea that would never have worked and the majority of them really did not have a plan besides "get angry" to actually make it happen. That is really the epitome of a tantrum.

 

Assume, they breached congress and took over the Senate chambers, then what? It's not like they could have the ability to take action and vote Trump president. You need Congress to do that. So, they control the building, Capitol police and National Guard and other peace keeping forces are brought in to restore order. The idiots get kicked out and order is restored. 

 

To have a coup, you need the military behind you and those at all levels of government to be able to take control by force. THat was never going to happen in this case. Hence, it was really a bunch of idiots rioting.

 

Now the Trump case with the false electors is a completely separate issue, but again that was a poorly thought out plan on their part that really had no opportunity for success. That plan though was definitely a more significant and serious plan that would upend the rule of law and will of the people, but again that was still something that would not have actually had a realistic chance of succeeding. It was a clown show by a bunch of desparate people who were quick to buy into Donald Trump's vanity project.

And your excuses for their behavior is what is really at the root of why the rest of the world sees us a weak. It's not Joe Biden. It's the GOP and those who simply look the other way and claim "both sides". Its an utter trash take on what's really happening.

The end result of this is going to be the Ohio Attorney General ordering the arrest of doctors, shutting down abortion clinics, and fining individuals who help someone get an abortion with the complicity of the Governor and State Legislature in clear violation of the Ohio Constitution. They'll say the law hasn't changed. Even if the State Supreme Court orders them to stop persecuting people, the state will ignore them. Even if the US Supreme Court were to take that case and rule against the Republicans, will they stop? They've shown already with redistricting that they don't care what the State Supreme Court has to say. No one forced them to change their behavior, so they're going to keep doing it.