Posted April 7, 20232 yr It sure looks like the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame expansion is moving forward, so I think it’s time for a dedicated thread. Perhaps previous posts for other threads could be moved here at some point. Last week, Cleveland’s Rock & Rock Hall of Fame was given a nod of approval from the city planning commission for a $100 million addition. The Rock Hall seeks to break ground this year. At its Friday March 31 meeting, the Cleveland Planning Commission granted conceptual approval to a 50,000-square-foot addition to the original I.M. Pei-designed building. The project would add offices, a main entrance lobby, and a concert venue to the Rock Hall. It would also renovate the I.M. Pei building to create more exhibit space and add a new green space and graded pathway to the lakefront. “We’re now 30 years old, and it’s time for us to expand and offer more experiences for visitors as well as the community,” said Greg Harris, CEO of the Rock Hall, to the planning commission. “This new project will feature extensive new spaces, including non-ticketed public spaces, with new opportunities to experience the lakefront both indoors and outdoors.” Harris said the Rock Hall has already raised significant funds towards the project, which has been on the drawing boards since at least 2020 and has been thought of since the Rock Hall’s opening. The project needs to come back to the planning commission for schematic and final approval. There was no discussion of how long the construction project would take. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
May 4, 20232 yr Design Review Committee has approved: https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2023/05/rock-hall-wins-design-review-commendation-with-caveats-for-evolving-100m-expansion-plans.html
May 4, 20232 yr 29 minutes ago, ryanfrazier said: Design Review Committee has approved: https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/2023/05/rock-hall-wins-design-review-commendation-with-caveats-for-evolving-100m-expansion-plans.html I do like the overall design, I do agree with a concern about the Rock Hall entrance shifting to the new addition and potentially taking life away from that part of the rock hall.
May 5, 20232 yr Honestly, I’m a bit surprised there wasn’t a little more pushback on the expansion design. Greg Soltis had some good critiques, IMO - like how having the new section as a main entrance might leave the original plaza entrance a bit lifeless - and how the "heavy" roof of the addition seems to be pushing Pei’s pyramid into the background - I agree with both concerns. The response regarding the plaza entrance was that it would be an exit and, I guess, still result in a lot of people on the plaza. I saw that@ryanfrazier’s post - the first with news of the approval - had 1 heart, 2 likes, 2 “thank-you’s” and 1 thumbs down 8 hours after his post - not exactly an excited approval from forum members. I got a kick out of the quote from Litt’s column (which had quite a few informative renderings) about how the expansion was supposed to “gently clash” with the HOF - and be both respectful of the original and both reverent and irreverent of it. Sounds a little conflicted to me and that's kind of how I feel looking at the renderings. The original hall has this really cool "lightness" about it and this addition feels "heavy". Maybe the granite will have some more color to it - that was mentioned in the article. I wish I could’ve loved it - and I’m still happy to see an expansion - but I just think it could’ve achieved a better sense of "harmony" with the iconic original. And, then again, maybe it will grow on me - like a song you have to hear a lot before you start liking it. Edited May 5, 20232 yr by CleveFan
May 5, 20232 yr Hot take: this is IM Pei's fault, the original design is bad architecture, yes it's pretty, but it's functionally awful. Hardly any of the above ground space is useful for the functions of a museum. It's a great statue but a terrible building. Very nice to look at from the outside, but once you're inside it just feels illogical and poorly laid out. The entrance is a great example. Why does the Rock Hall want to move it? Because there's hardly anywhere to check or sell tickets, you walk in to a few feet before a railing, and someone is asking for tickets and handing you a wristband. The whole thing feels like an afterthought, like the architect never bothered to think about how the museum would function day to day. That said, I'm not huge on the update either. It's less bad than I originally thought it would be, but it still isn't great. It's probably good though that the Rock Hall is prioritizing the functions of the space over it's aesthetics. I'm hopeful that the exterior ends up looking better than I initially thought it would. So far each series of renderings has been better than the last, hopefully what's built continues that trend. More than that though, I'm hopeful that the update improves the experience of visiting the Rock Hall, because ultimately that's what matters. I know a lot of Clevelanders who don't recommend people visit the Rock Hall, or have never been themselves. That's the real problem, not how the building looks from the outside. On a separate note, what I'd ideally like to see happen is this renovation happen in tandem with the land bridge. There's a lot of opportunity for these two things to work together synergistically (underground expansion, connecting to parking, etc). I'm worried that the direction of their expansion might make something like the Green Ribbon Coalitions proposal infeasible. I can understand why the Rock Hall doesn't want to wait for something that may never happen though...
May 5, 20232 yr Yes, it is Pei's fault. An impressive structure for sure, but not very functional. Other than making the entrance a little closer, I don't really see how this addition is going to make much of a difference from a visitor perspective since I assume most of the exhibits will still be on the lower level. I share your concern @Ethan about waiting a bit until the land bridge and shoreway/roadway reconfiguration plans are finalized before forging ahead with expansion to ensure that everything ties together nicely.
May 5, 20232 yr Pressed for time today....how will the update help connectivity to the water and the Science Center? And Ethan's point about the land bridge is a good one. I'd been hoping all these entities on the Lakefront would be working together in all this.
May 5, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said: Other than making the entrance a little closer, I don't really see how this addition is going to make much of a difference from a visitor perspective since I assume most of the exhibits will still be on the lower level This is a good point, to some extent I'm taking it on faith that the Rock Hall knows what they need. I know part of this is moving offices and other essential, non customer facing necessities out of the main building. That could end up making a big difference by freeing up valuable space in the main building, but I don't know exactly how. Also, having the ability to play live music seems huge for a music hall of fame, even if it's nobody special, live music makes a huge difference. What I'd personally like to see is a less linear museum with more of a focus on music and less on memorabilia. Particularly post Beatles, pretending that all of the music the "Rock" Hall of Fame wants to claim shares the same story is tenuous at best. Given that, have different foot paths for things like Hip-hop, country, and metal, maybe even in a separate annex. If you're going to put all these disparate styles under one roof then you should at least do them all justice. Let people know where these styles diverge, what their early influences are, etc. Treat all of these styles with the same care that is given for early roots through the Beatles. That isn't going to happen, but that would be my 2¢. (Or just be willing to define what is and isn't "Rock" and focus the museum accordingly, that's definitely not going to happen though)
May 5, 20232 yr with the stage, ticketing and office in the addition. the ground floor and 2nd (if I remember) floor will be freed up for exhibition space. rhe last few years the rock hall has had outside foodtruck service and picnic tables in the plaza during the summer. I'm sure it will still be active with the entrance moved over.
May 5, 20232 yr If they need more space for offices, maybe they should use the tower for that purpose which IMO seems to be a waste currently.
May 5, 20232 yr Either tear down the old Rock Hall build this or don't build this new addition at all. The two do not match. The old Rock Hall is dated and needs to be rebuilt.
May 5, 20232 yr Perhaps it would have been better if the the rock hall had been built at the original location at tower city. IMO it was a mistake moving it to the harbor without significantly redesigning it.
May 5, 20232 yr The rock hall is currently getting bad press by some for inducting Wilie Nelson. Maybe, eventually, this will be renamed the music hall of fame? Will this museum be as relevant in 30 years in its current form?
May 5, 20232 yr 44 minutes ago, dski44 said: The rock hall is currently getting bad press by some for inducting Wilie Nelson. Maybe, eventually, this will be renamed the music hall of fame? Will this museum be as relevant in 30 years in its current form? And they inducted Dolly Parton last year. Since they insist on having such a large induction class every year, I suppose they need to induct performers from other genres. Perhaps it will make sense to eventually change it to pop music hall of fame. Edited May 5, 20232 yr by LibertyBlvd
May 5, 20232 yr 36 minutes ago, dski44 said: The rock hall is currently getting bad press by some for inducting Wilie Nelson. Maybe, eventually, this will be renamed the music hall of fame? Will this museum be as relevant in 30 years in its current form? Not if they tried to stay exclusively with Rock bands. Rock doesn't have nearly the relevance in pop culture as it did when the Rock Hall was built.
May 5, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: If they need more space for offices, maybe they should use the tower for that purpose which IMO seems to be a waste currently. If it's offices they want, some, at least, could go into their Annex over near Tri-C. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
May 5, 20232 yr Before we saw any renderings l had zero ideas about what expansion could look like. The design of the original building makes it very difficult to attach something else to it. Because of that l can't really complain about this version or something else for that matter. Sure, that dark section looks a little ominous but the wedge seems interesting. What else could an architect add there? Then again, while l have very definite ideas about what l think looks good l couldn't create an original design if my life depended on it lol.
May 5, 20232 yr A bit unrelated, but I'm tired of them holding the induction ceremony in New York. They need to shrink the classes or do the induction biannually, and hold the ceremony in Cleveland every time. I feel we lose out on a lot of notoriety and prestige by letting NYC take that. Also, I'm strongly against the Annex in NYC as well.
May 5, 20232 yr 25 minutes ago, cadmen said: Before we saw any renderings l had zero ideas about what expansion could look like. The design of the original building makes it very difficult to attach something else to it. Maybe I'm confused, but when they first started talking about expansion a few years ago, I thought the plan was to do it all underground.
May 5, 20232 yr 3 hours ago, ArtDecoSquirrel said: A bit unrelated, but I'm tired of them holding the induction ceremony in New York. They need to shrink the classes or do the induction biannually, and hold the ceremony in Cleveland every time. I feel we lose out on a lot of notoriety and prestige by letting NYC take that. Also, I'm strongly against the Annex in NYC as well. Actually last year was in LA. Next year is in Cleveland. They are going back to the three year rotation but have talked about adding other cities including even London in the mix.
May 5, 20232 yr Actually last year was in LA. Next year is in Cleveland. They are going back to the three year rotation but have talked about adding other cities including even London in the mix. They just hate being based in Cleveland at this point. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
May 6, 20232 yr 5 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: They just hate being based in Cleveland at this point. Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk Could be. It doesn't help that artists and people like Howard Stern have complained when the ceremony is held in Cleveland. I am just thankful that they are expanding here instead of making a second location elsewhere which would inevitably end up being the main location overtime.
May 6, 20232 yr @LibertyBlvdYou're right. From what l remember the original expansion was tucked into thd base of the little hill between the Rock Hall and the Science Center. It wasn't much more than a connector between the two but it would have allowed visitors to park in the garage and walk inside to the Rock Hall. It was very low profile and a lot smaller than this version.
May 6, 20232 yr 21 hours ago, ArtDecoSquirrel said: A bit unrelated, but I'm tired of them holding the induction ceremony in New York. They need to shrink the classes or do the induction biannually, and hold the ceremony in Cleveland every time. I feel we lose out on a lot of notoriety and prestige by letting NYC take that. Also, I'm strongly against the Annex in NYC as well. There is no Annex in NYC. It was a complete failure and closed soon after opening.
May 6, 20232 yr ^probably a large part of why this was a failure was its location. Yes, it was in Soho, but not in a highly visible area, on Mercer St., that doesn't have much foot traffic. Ironically the other side of the block is Broadway with lots of stores, where the sidewalk is mobbed with young people and tourists, especially on weekends. Plus the admission fee was even higher than the actual museum! I never went in (probably because of the fee) but after it opened I wanted to see exactly where it was and walked past it at first not even realizing it. As you can see it didn't have the most inviting entrance-- Edited May 6, 20232 yr by eastvillagedon http://www.mainstreetpainesville.org/
May 7, 20232 yr On 5/6/2023 at 3:12 AM, Mendo said: Not if they tried to stay exclusively with Rock bands. Rock doesn't have nearly the relevance in pop culture as it did when the Rock Hall was built. In the end, I go back to the comments the master Ice Cube made during the 2016 induction of N.W.A. addressing this very topic. It’s hard to argue with this: “Goddam right, we're rock and roll, rock ’n’ roll is not an instrument; rock ’n’ roll is not even a style of music. Rock ’n’ roll is a spirit. Rock ’n’ roll is not conforming to the people who came before you, but creating your own path in music and in life.”
May 8, 20232 yr speaking of that spirit, are any club dj’s in the hall? they should be too. maybe start with the older ones while they are still alive like giorgio moroder, junior vasquez, kool herc, etc..
July 9, 20231 yr https://www.wkyc.com/article/entertainment/music/rock-hall/cleveland-planning-commission-approves-rock-roll-hall-of-fame-100-million-expansion-plan/95-445746fc-ae57-48b4-ae17-1131cd9667be Let's continue the conversation on Rock Hall expansion here.
July 13, 20231 yr I’m very happy that there’s a $100 million investment in the Rock Hall coming and I know some have expressed their like or dislike of the new expansion renderings previously From @KJP’s excellent article on lakefront projects yesterday, this rendering underscores, for me, one design aspect of the project that I don’t like That stone wall- looking building in the expansion is just “so dark” in contrast with the light, modern feeling of the original museum. I think if they could at least illuminate it fully, it would help the aesthetic
July 13, 20231 yr BTW, it's very hard to find out where the money is coming from for the Rock Hall expansion. An undisclosed amount is coming from the Gund Foundation and $1.75 million in state money is for the new park between the Rock Hall and Science Center. The rest? 🕵️♂️ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 13, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, CleveFan said: That stone wall- looking building in the expansion is just “so dark” in contrast with the light, modern feeling of the original museum. I think if they could at least illuminate it fully, it would help the aesthetic. I have also been wondering about that. It looks rather massive and does not seem to blend in with the rest of the structure.
July 14, 20231 yr What if they added grooved horizontal banding that had a stacked record vibe when uplit at night? Inside the banding they could engrave inducted members of the RRHOF or add iconic song names into the stone
July 14, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, dave2017 said: What if they added grooved horizontal banding that had a stacked record vibe when uplit at night? Inside the banding they could engrave inducted members of the RRHOF or add iconic song names into the stone This already looks better. But the whole thing is just awful. A shed roof that cuts 3/4 into the original building, and this cheap looking tiled round thing. How, of all things, that this got zero pushback is mind numbing.
July 14, 20231 yr I think (hope) this will probably end up looking okay. all the different shapes in the building will go along with the different shapes in the science center next door. Dave is right tho that more detailing would be better. I will say this - this "we made it ugly because that's rock and roll!" stuff from the architects represent everything that is hacky and annoying about the design business. Edited July 14, 20231 yr by Whipjacka
July 14, 20231 yr I also wish we could see how the PAU designed expansion could have some interior renderings to show. It is difficult to understand how the two structures blend or if there is a "clash"of finishes planned. The I M Pei design is light filled and the PAU addition feels dark.
July 14, 20231 yr 9 hours ago, marty15 said: This already looks better. But the whole thing is just awful. A shed roof that cuts 3/4 into the original building, and this cheap looking tiled round thing. How, of all things, that this got zero pushback is mind numbing. All those design review committees seem to be powerless to do much. We are getting a shack on Public Square and now this.
July 14, 20231 yr 58 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said: All those design review committees seem to be powerless to do much. We are getting a shack on Public Square and now this. They will hassle, block, and pump their chests out to the smaller developers and individual homeowners. However, large institutions get a rubber stamp and praise.
July 14, 20231 yr I think this is one of those things that will look better in person. I'm no math guy so I could be wrong but I think the forced perspective from the viewpoint where those renders are taken might be making it seem more extreme than it is. The entrance to the building would be further away from the viewer and the closest thing to the viewer is the pillar. I think if you were standing on the viewpoint of the center of that circle plaza it would look more proportional. At least that is my hope. The best view from another angle I found was in their presentation and I think it helps. Yes still a big pillar but I think it looks way more proportional from this angle which might be more indicative of what it will ultimately look like. Edited July 14, 20231 yr by dwolfi01
July 14, 20231 yr On 7/13/2023 at 10:29 AM, CleveFan said: That stone wall- looking building in the expansion is just “so dark” in contrast with the light, modern feeling of the original museum. I think if they could at least illuminate it fully, it would help the aesthetic Or how about cladding it to match the existing structure? Edited July 14, 20231 yr by LibertyBlvd
July 15, 20231 yr 11 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said: All those design review committees seem to be powerless to do much. We are getting a shack on Public Square and now this. I think this is some serious pearl clutching. The smaller building on PS isn’t ideal, but, considering the giant tower being built right next to it, it’s a net big win. And the Rock Hall addition isn’t nearly as bad as some are saying. It’s as good an addition as one could expect starting with a so-so Pei design. So many good things are happening in this city construction and design wise and I wish those could be highlighted instead of the House of Complaints that it sometimes feels like UO has turned into. There’s a way to express a thoughtful critique that doesn’t have to feel like a broken record of negativity.
September 12, 20231 yr Oct. 5 Groundbreaking on Rock Hall Expansion https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/09/rock-hall-schedules-oct-5-groundbreaking-for-135-million-plus-expansion-as-precursor-to-citys-lakefront-makeover.html Article is behind a paywall unfortunately...
September 12, 20231 yr Oct. 5 Groundbreaking on Rock Hall Expansion https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/09/rock-hall-schedules-oct-5-groundbreaking-for-135-million-plus-expansion-as-precursor-to-citys-lakefront-makeover.html Article is behind a paywall unfortunately...Essentially it said the groundbreaking will be October 5th with site work taking place in November followed by the digging for Caissons that will go 100 feet deep. The rest is just a recap of the Mayors plan and facts about the project that we already know such as the museum square footage increasing from 155,000 square feet to 205,000 square feet etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
September 14, 20231 yr A little more detail with some new renderings in this new article here. https://archinect.com/news/article/150371439/pau-begins-rock-roll-hall-of-fame-expansion-in-cleveland The granite color does continue to look dark. Maybe the contrast to the original hall color motif will work well in person. 🤷♀️
September 15, 20231 yr I'll reserve judgement on the interiros but I'm not sure why so much of the expansion space is taken up by the staircase. I also really want o see how the IM Pei structure is enclosed in the PAU design. Lastly, I wonder why some renderings have Long Live Rock changed to Long Live Rock and Roll. These photos were part of Cleveland.com's article
September 15, 20231 yr 14 minutes ago, dave2017 said: I'll reserve judgement on the interiros but I'm not sure why so much of the expansion space is taken up by the staircase. I also really want o see how the IM Pei structure is enclosed in the PAU design. Lastly, I wonder why some renderings have Long Live Rock changed to Long Live Rock and Roll. These photos were part of Cleveland.com's article LOL: It must be the "Stairway to Heaven," (Neil Sedaka or Led Zeppelin). Seriously though, I am kind of liking the designs. Edited September 15, 20231 yr by urb-a-saurus
September 15, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, dave2017 said: I'll reserve judgement on the interiros but I'm not sure why so much of the expansion space is taken up by the staircase. I also really want o see how the IM Pei structure is enclosed in the PAU design. Lastly, I wonder why some renderings have Long Live Rock changed to Long Live Rock and Roll. These photos were part of Cleveland.com's article The whole thing is gawd awful.
September 15, 20231 yr It would have been nice if they could have added the new section in a way that doesn't obscure the iconic glass front.
September 15, 20231 yr I guess l'm kinda getting used to it. Time has a way of doing that. Besides, the original design makes it practically impossible to seamlessly add an addition. A potentially bigger issue is having the Rock Hall becoming obsolete. Its only real audience are aging Boomers. When the idea of a museum dedicated to rock was first broached the music was still current. I don't think that's the case anymore. Are Gen X. Gen Z etc. really interested in rock? And since there aren't really any new rock bands at the rate of inductions how many are there left who warrant getting in? Seems like we'll run out of contenders soon enough. Maybe the answer is to just call it a music museum so the genres can be expanded.
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