June 7, 20232 yr I very much hope the Tournament stays in Mason. On paper it probably makes more sense to stay in Mason, and there are a lot of reasons it should stay that have been discussed here. All of those reasons are negated by the ego and desires of a billionaire with money to spend. We will see how it plays out.
June 7, 20232 yr 2 minutes ago, wjh said: I very much hope the Tournament stays in Mason. On paper it probably makes more sense to stay in Mason, and there are a lot of reasons it should stay that have been discussed here. All of those reasons are negated by the ego and desires of a billionaire with money to spend. We will see how it plays out. at the end of the day, it is the desire and ego of the owner that will dictate the final decision.
June 7, 20232 yr Yes and if anything with the ATP having a lease until 2029 with the Lindner complex Mason would very likely get a replacement tournament until that date.A 1000 level tournament is maybe even possible as the ATP wants to expand those number of tournaments.
June 7, 20232 yr 14 minutes ago, ucnum1 said: Yes and if anything with the ATP having a lease until 2029 with the Lindner complex Mason would very likely get a replacement tournament until that date.A 1000 level tournament is maybe even possible as the ATP wants to expand those number of tournaments. This issue motivated me to do a bit of background reading and what's interesting is that the world of pro tennis is wildly balkanized, with no affiliation existing between the Grand Slam tournaments and the ATP (also, women's tennis is independent of the ATP). In 2022 the ATP stated that it wants to significantly raise the profile of the 1000 events to something almost on-par with the Grand Slams. That's why they are expanding both the size of the (men's) tournaments and the number of them. But I suspect that raising the profile of the 1000-level events will include moving the lower-profile events to higher-profile locations, and Mason, OH, is not one of them, so even if a new 1000-level event is created for the United States, I'm still skeptical that we would win it.
June 7, 20232 yr Based off the news of the last day or so, the Saudi's will probably run tennis in the next few years anyway. None of these tennis players are on contract and could easily follow the money the same way as the golfers did. Who knows what a 1000 level event would even mean in that future.
June 7, 20232 yr 26 minutes ago, Lazarus said: This issue motivated me to do a bit of background reading and what's interesting is that the world of pro tennis is wildly balkanized, with no affiliation existing between the Grand Slam tournaments and the ATP (also, women's tennis is independent of the ATP). In 2022 the ATP stated that it wants to significantly raise the profile of the 1000 events to something almost on-par with the Grand Slams. That's why they are expanding both the size of the (men's) tournaments and the number of them. But I suspect that raising the profile of the 1000-level events will include moving the lower-profile events to higher-profile locations, and Mason, OH, is not one of them, so even if a new 1000-level event is created for the United States, I'm still skeptical that we would win it. Depends on several factors but mostly the tennis complex.There is only 2 tennis complexs in the United States with 30 courts that can host the new requirements of a 1000 level tournament today.Lot easier to get to that level of tennis complex needed in Mason than anywhere else.And I imagine Western & Southern will bring another tournament into Mason with the needed infrastructure upgrades.
June 7, 20232 yr 24 minutes ago, ucgrady said: Based off the news of the last day or so, the Saudi's will probably run tennis in the next few years anyway. None of these tennis players are on contract and could easily follow the money the same way as the golfers did. Who knows what a 1000 level event would even mean in that future. Yes I had the same thought. There is nothing stopping them from creating four new events that overlap the Grand Slams, each with a $100+ million purse.
June 13, 20232 yr Charlotte approves $65M for bid to snag Western & Southern Open A proposal to relocate the Western & Southern Open from its home of more than 120 years took a $65 million step forward Monday evening. At a June 12 meeting, Charlotte City Council unanimously approved their portion of the roughly $130 million in taxpayer funding officials from Beemok Capital are seeking to build a massive tennis complex in the North Carolina city. County and state officials also are expected to chip in for the effort. “I couldn’t even initially wrap my head around this,” Mayor Pro Tem Braxton Winston said during Monday's vote. "This is something that usually doesn’t come around. I wouldn’t even say this is once in a lifetime. This is just once in your imagination." More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/13/charlotte-approves-western-southern-open-funding.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 13, 20232 yr 27 minutes ago, ColDayMan said: Charlotte approves $65M for bid to snag Western & Southern Open A proposal to relocate the Western & Southern Open from its home of more than 120 years took a $65 million step forward Monday evening. At a June 12 meeting, Charlotte City Council unanimously approved their portion of the roughly $130 million in taxpayer funding officials from Beemok Capital are seeking to build a massive tennis complex in the North Carolina city. County and state officials also are expected to chip in for the effort. “I couldn’t even initially wrap my head around this,” Mayor Pro Tem Braxton Winston said during Monday's vote. "This is something that usually doesn’t come around. I wouldn’t even say this is once in a lifetime. This is just once in your imagination." More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/13/charlotte-approves-western-southern-open-funding.html Lots of money on both sides, Still keeping it in Cincinnati makes the most sense by far. Rarely do you see a sports franchise or sporting tournament leave a strong healthy successful market and already developed facility for most simply a different location. Ohio has put together a very strong bid and more is going on behind the scenes. With construction costs rising (building a new giant center in Charlotte from scratch??!) and Cincinnati being an established tennis market this proposed move seems even more odd by the day. Will be interesting to see how this goes. And gosh what to do with the Mason Tennis Center if the tournament moves will be an interesting conversation.
June 13, 20232 yr ^It appears that the ATP only plays a few times in the United States each year - mostly in July-August. Top players aren't going to fly from Europe or elsewhere just to play a minor tournament in Mason, OH in the spring or fall. https://www.atptour.com/en/tournaments Also, there is an "Atlanta Open" and the "Winston-Salem Open", which are both ATP 250 events, and both are awfully close to Charlotte. It's a bit unfair that that region of the United States might end up with three ATP tournaments and the Midwest will have zero.
June 13, 20232 yr This graphic is better. It illustrates how there are often multiple ATP 250/500 events on the same weekend, but there is only one event in the world for the ATP 1000 events. This concentrates global TV viewership on these tournaments.
June 13, 20232 yr 4 minutes ago, Lazarus said: Top players aren't going to fly from Europe or elsewhere just to play a minor tournament in Mason, OH in the spring or fall. I don’t think anyone is saying bringing a “minor tournament” is in the air or an acceptable alternative, which is why I said the future of the center will be very interesting if the tournament moves
June 13, 20232 yr 5 minutes ago, 646empire said: I don’t think anyone is saying bringing a “minor tournament” is in the air or an acceptable alternative, which is why I said the future of the center will be very interesting if the tournament moves If the ATP allows the new owner to move the tournament away from this well-established facility without replacing it with an equivalent event, what incentive do other tournament sites have to invest in their facilities? What if Navarro sells this tournament in 2030, just a few years after his current investors + Charlotte spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the new facility? Would the new owner be able to pick up and leave? Edited June 13, 20232 yr by Lazarus
June 13, 20232 yr 56 minutes ago, ColDayMan said: Charlotte approves $65M for bid to snag Western & Southern Open A proposal to relocate the Western & Southern Open from its home of more than 120 years took a $65 million step forward Monday evening. At a June 12 meeting, Charlotte City Council unanimously approved their portion of the roughly $130 million in taxpayer funding officials from Beemok Capital are seeking to build a massive tennis complex in the North Carolina city. County and state officials also are expected to chip in for the effort. “I couldn’t even initially wrap my head around this,” Mayor Pro Tem Braxton Winston said during Monday's vote. "This is something that usually doesn’t come around. I wouldn’t even say this is once in a lifetime. This is just once in your imagination." More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/13/charlotte-approves-western-southern-open-funding.html What I also find funny is the assumption by Charlotte officials and these new owners in thinking they can just move it and it’s going to automatically be as successful and or more than Cincy. Completely ignoring the long established history in the Cincinnati market. There are so many risks involved in moving this tournament. This isn’t football or basketball or a sport that’s just totally “automatic” in drawing huge crowds and local interest. Also the construction costs from building a center from the ground up are going to be much higher than the 400m projected. Looking at the scope of the charlotte project it screams 500m+ if you don’t cut corners.
June 13, 20232 yr 17 minutes ago, Lazarus said: If the ATP allows the new owner to move the tournament away from this well-established facility without replacing it with an equivalent event, what incentive do other tournament sites have to invest in their facilities? What if Navarro sells this tournament in 2030, just a few years after his current investors + Charlotte spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the new facility? Would the new owner be able to pick up and leave? Yeah this seems veryyyy messy. Even in the NFL, MLB, NBA etc relocation games no one moves from a successful market with good facilities and an easy offer on the table to make them great along with universal State and Local support. This whole thing is unprecedented from what I’ve been able to gather. Edited June 13, 20232 yr by 646empire
June 13, 20232 yr 11 minutes ago, 646empire said: Yeah this seems veryyyy messy. Even in the NFL, MLB, NBA etc relocation games no one moves from a successful market with good facilities and an offer on the table to make them great. This whole thing is unprecedented from what I’ve been able to gather. There is also the threat of the Saudis completely upending everything, meaning the ATP is doomed, and Navarro is going to lose his entire investment.
June 15, 20231 yr Regional leaders still fighting to keep Western & Southern Open despite successful Charlotte vote Charlotte, N.C., is throwing wads of cash at the new owners of the Western & Southern Open, trying to woo the tennis tournament away from Greater Cincinnati. But local leaders say the battle isn’t over and they have plenty to offer to keep the valuable event here. “It isn’t a question of whether the region feels it can compete with another city to retain the tournament: We can,” Phil Smith, CEO of the Warren County Convention & Visitors Bureau, told me. Beemok Capital, the family office of Charleston, S.C., businessman Ben Navarro that bought the Western & Southern Open in October, wants an expanded facility that can be used all year. The tournament will become a two-week event starting in 2025 with fields expanding to 96 players on the men’s and women’s sides from 56 now. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/14/western-southern-open-fight-continues.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 15, 20231 yr I think this guy bought the tournament specifically to move it to Charlotte. Pretty sure he had previously tried to buy the Panthers. He is already setting the stage by saying improvements needed in Mason would cost $375M vs. $400M for a faciltiy from scratch, which is nonsense. Even if the money was matched here I say it is probably gone. Too bad after being a local event for a 124 years.
June 15, 20231 yr A lot of people are hanging onto the hope that the ATP would say no, but there's no way this billionaire is going through all of this without running this by the governing body first. He likely knows what they would say if he proposes it officially to ATP.
June 15, 20231 yr 38 minutes ago, ryanlammi said: A lot of people are hanging onto the hope that the ATP would say no, but there's no way this billionaire is going through all of this without running this by the governing body first. He likely knows what they would say if he proposes it officially to ATP. If the tourney leaves, the local officials need to make it as painful as possible for him to move it. Large lawsuits should be filed, even it it will not stop it from moving. Mason needs to extract their pound of flesh on the back end for the priviledge of moving the tourney to a second rate city in North Carolina
June 15, 20231 yr I think this guy bought the tournament specifically to move it to Charlotte. Pretty sure he had previously tried to buy the Panthers. He is already setting the stage by saying improvements needed in Mason would cost $375M vs. $400M for a faciltiy from scratch, which is nonsense. Even if the money was matched here I say it is probably gone. Too bad after being a local event for a 124 years.Agreed. The math behind the numbers is total BS. The facility is surrounded by open grass fields. They are used for parking, but it would be very easy to just use Kings Island’s excess parking during the tournament and shuttle people over if neededSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
June 15, 20231 yr At the risk of veering off topic. If the tournament does move, the Mason Tennis Center would make a good place for a new Bengals stadium (privately financed of course).
June 16, 20231 yr 23 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said: At the risk of veering off topic. If the tournament does move, the Mason Tennis Center would make a good place for a new Bengals stadium (privately financed of course). Practice facility maybe, but not the new football stadium. Terrible idea. On many levels.
June 16, 20231 yr The only reason The Bengals would want to leave downtown is if they had the opportunity to buy a racetrack (like The Rams and The Bears) and build their own mixed-used development. We have a smaller but similar example with FC Cincinnati. As I mentioned in a previous post, I suspect that the same strategy is at play with the move to Charlotte, with the tennis center as the centerpiece of an all-new development.
June 16, 20231 yr It's a shame that the golf course isn't in better shape. There could've been a play at getting a PGA Event once again.
June 16, 20231 yr On 6/16/2023 at 2:07 PM, JaceTheAce41 said: They used to host a senior PGA event Right, back in the 80s and 90s right. Then the course wasn't kept up well and it's not been touched since. I'm surprised that Jack still has his name tied to it. It's not a dump by any means, but a pretty boring/outdated design. Edited June 20, 20231 yr by tonyt3524
June 19, 20231 yr On 6/16/2023 at 2:52 PM, tonyt3524 said: I'm surprised that Jack still has his name tied to it. I don't think he officially does. It's not really anywhere on the site but a brief mention about the name of the bar on the 18th.
June 22, 20231 yr 2025 date seems important per this.I think Mason has the advantage because of logistics being ready by 2025 to double in size. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/22/western-southern-open-tennis-lindner-charlotte.html
June 23, 20231 yr 17 hours ago, ucnum1 said: 2025 date seems important per this.I think Mason has the advantage because of logistics being ready by 2025 to double in size. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/22/western-southern-open-tennis-lindner-charlotte.html And I will mention again Construction costs are verrrryyy high right now, starting from scratch in Charlotte is foolish in all kinds of ways.
July 21, 20231 yr Western & Southern Open’s new owner Beemok Capital invests in fan, player features The new owners of the Western & Southern Open have wasted no time in making major improvements to the Lindner Family Tennis Center, the tournament's home in Mason, even as they’re considering moving the event out of town. Beemok Sports and Entertainment, the unit of new Charleston, S.C.-based tournament owner Beemok Capital that now runs the tournament, invested $5 million to make several much-needed improvements to the facility this year, Beemok Sports and Entertainment President Bob Moran told me. Beemok Capital, the family office of Charleston, S.C., billionaire Ben Navarro, bought the Western & Southern Open last year. “It’s an unprecedented investment in this event,” Todd Martin, tournament director and Beemok’s director of tennis, said Thursday, July 20, at a media preview event for the tournament. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/07/21/western-southern-open-beemok-capital-fan-features.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
July 24, 20231 yr Just to be clear on this. The headline says it all, and unfortunately it has been his plan all along. Beemok Capital's plan to move Western & Southern still needs $25M commitment from North Carolina officials
July 24, 20231 yr 17 minutes ago, Cincy13 said: Just to be clear on this. The headline says it all, and unfortunately it has been his plan all along. Beemok Capital's plan to move Western & Southern still needs $25M commitment from North Carolina officials Not really.Word is this is leaning towards staying in Mason.Timeframe and rising construction costs for a new build $500 plus facility being the main cause.
July 24, 20231 yr 5 minutes ago, ucnum1 said: Not really.Word is this is leaning towards staying in Mason.Timeframe and rising construction costs for a new build $500 plus facility being the main cause. I am hearing the same vibe too. That, plus the overall infrastructure that is already here makes it an extremely difficult asset to move, if the local area here is willing to continue to invest in it.
July 24, 20231 yr Hope you two are right. I go back to the owner saying that it would be $350M to improve here versus $400M to build new there. Obviously not true, but seems like another excuse for the move.
August 11, 20231 yr Western & Southern Open tennis tournament unveils new features for 2023 as attendance is expected to rise The Western & Southern Open is about to serve up another week of professional tennis at the Lindner Family Tennis Center in Mason, with new features galore and fans expected to turn out in droves even as the tournament’s long-term home remains in doubt. Beemok Sports and Entertainment, the unit of new tournament owner Beemok Capital that now runs the W&S Open, has invested $5 million in several major changes aimed at improving the experience for fans and players. Charleston, S.C.-based Beemok Capital is the family office entity of Charleston billionaire Ben Navarro. Tournament officials provided a sneak preview to the media of what's new. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/08/10/whats-new-western-southern-open-attendance-rising.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 12, 20231 yr GAME, SET, MATCH? THE NEW OWNER OF THE WESTERN & SOUTHERN OPEN HAS PLANS TO MOVE THE TOURNAMENT TO CHARLOTTE. CINCINNATI IS READY TO FIGHT TO KEEP IT HERE. In a matter of days, Center Court at the Lindner Family Tennis Center will be packed with 11,600 fans. The rest of the facility will be crawling with people watching matches, eating burgers and gyros, listening to live music, getting up close to the world’s top players and taking in the nearly unparalleled atmosphere of the Western & Southern Open. It might be one of the last times the event is played in Greater Cincinnati. In a battle of two Queen Cities, Cincinnati and Charlotte, N.C., are squaring off to be the long-term home of what’s been called the Western & Southern Open for 22 years. But its history in Cincinnati is far longer. The tournament has called the region home for 124 years, dating to 1899. The fate of the event, one of the world’s nine biggest tennis tournaments with the top men and women competing on their own tours at the same venue at the same time, was thrown into question last year. Ben Navarro, a Charleston, S.C.-based billionaire who owns a Women’s Tennis Association tournament there, finalized his purchase of the Western & Southern Open through his Beemok Capital family office entity in October. That spawned questions that the tournament could move. The questions morphed into outright fear as Charlotte emerged as a strong candidate, wooing Navarro and Beemok to move the event there for the long term. Beemok and Charlotte officials came up with plans to build a $400 million tennis facility in the city’s new River District development that would be the home of the Western & Southern Open as well as year-round activities. More below: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/08/11/western-southern-open-future-cincinnati-charlotte.html "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 21, 20231 yr 6 minutes ago, Lazarus said: Dumbest letter to the editor, ever: And also the simple fact you don’t spend 400 plus million on a new Charlotte center just to put it there every other year.
August 21, 20231 yr 19 minutes ago, 646empire said: And also the simple fact you don’t spend 400 plus million on a new Charlotte center just to put it there every other year. These are the same sort of people who leave a lot of Yelp reviews. Yet people, for some reason, still lean on Yelp reviews.
August 21, 20231 yr 53 minutes ago, Lazarus said: Dumbest letter to the editor, ever: It is such a defeatest position. She is acting as if there is no hope and groveling to get some scraps.
August 21, 20231 yr I drove past the event yesterday (Sunday), during the finals. I didn't realize it was already the finals. But I had the thought that it didn't seem like a big deal from the highway. There are no billboards or other signage letting the public know what the facility is or the significance of this event. Likewise for downtown Cincinnati - no banners hanging from light posts or anything that announce the event. It's like this thing happens in a vacuum.
August 21, 20231 yr 7 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said: It is such a defeatest position. She is acting as if there is no hope and groveling to get some scraps. True but I also blame the media too. They have been very negative and waving the white flag from the beginning.
August 21, 20231 yr 3 minutes ago, 646empire said: True but I also blame the media too. They have been very negative and waving the white flag from the beginning. That is the go to Cincinnati mantra. As soon as challenged by another city, we throw our hands up and admit defeat and that we are no longer good enough. I do feel that based on the latest stories I hear, it seems momentum is on it staying and i think last week's successful run only further strengthens the cause
August 21, 20231 yr 10 minutes ago, Lazarus said: Likewise for downtown Cincinnati - no banners hanging from light posts or anything that announce the event. It's like this thing happens in a vacuum. Very rarely if ever does the city put banners and graphics in the business district for an event that’s not being held downtown/OTR, and I think that makes sense. But nor does the tennis tournament really need it. People know the event really well. I can tell you hotels and restaurants downtown had very good traffic from the event the past week or 2. Edited August 21, 20231 yr by 646empire
August 21, 20231 yr 3 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said: That is the go to Cincinnati mantra. As soon as challenged by another city, we throw our hands up and admit defeat and that we are no longer good enough. I do feel that based on the latest stories I hear, it seems momentum is on it staying and i think last week's successful run only further strengthens the cause Yeah only recently have I noticed more media steam around it staying put in Cincy.
August 21, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said: It is such a defeatest position. She is acting as if there is no hope and groveling to get some scraps. Oh I was thinking this is someone trying to go out of their way to find a compromise, when one doesn't/can't exist.
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