6 hours ago, Dev said:

Oh I was thinking this is someone trying to go out of their way to find a compromise, when one doesn't/can't exist.

 

Actually I looked it up and the Canadian Open alternates between Toronto and Montreal, so such a situation does actually exist, but that's different because Canada only has two major cities (sorry Vancouver) whereas the United States has dozens and dozens. 

7 hours ago, 646empire said:

Very rarely if ever does the city put banners and graphics in the business district for an event that’s not being held downtown/OTR, and I think that makes sense. But nor does the tennis tournament really need it. People know the event really well.

 

What percentage of Cincinnatians have ever set foot on the grounds?  Surely well under 10%.  People visiting the city for other reasons in July and August likely have no idea that the tournament exists. 

 

They ought to build a sign next to I-71 that tells people what they're driving past, perhaps with a screen that cycles daily through a different winner of the tournament going back to 1899. 

 

This thing looks completely generic on TV when in fact it's just about the oldest continuous tournament in the world. 

 

Considering they use the tennis center for other events throughout the year I'm sure way more then 10% of people in this city have set foot on the grounds.  But please continue talking about something you clearly know nothing about @Lazarus

20 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Considering they use the tennis center for other events throughout the year I'm sure way more then 10% of people in this city have set foot on the grounds.  But please continue talking about something you clearly know nothing about @Lazarus

To be fair, and I am sure there was some hyperbole in the comment, I am sure most people clearly know about the tennis facility but unless you golf, there is really no reason to step foot on the property.  Outside of the 2 weeks when the tennis tourney was held, there is no real activity at that site (the tennis site). On occasion they had a couple of other minor events there but that was really a one off thing. Outside of driving by Kings Island, most people have no interaction with the Tennis Stadium. Much of that was due to the fact that the old owner USTA really did nothing to promote or encourage programming on the site and preferred to let it sit dormant when the tourney was not in session. 

 

I think that this really presents a huge opportunity here. Essentially you have a tennis center in a field of a growing suburban area and it offers a blank slate for development. The golf course can be sacrificed or even envisioned to fit in a unique development that can activate the area 12 months out of the year and be tennis focused. Develop a tennis village where people live, work and play around the site (almost like an Easton or Summit Park area in BLue Ash but the focal point is the enhanced tennis center. Golf can be reconfigured and play a role. Bike ahd hiking trails can also be built. Use the tennis center as a hub to incubate and attract sports and performance technology businesses to the area. there is a lot that can be done with the space (since afterall most golf courses are just waiting to be redeveloped at some point into a higher use). 

I've seen ads on digital billboards on my way to work as well as ads online. They do a good job of advertising the event but if you're not a tennis fan you might not pay much attention. I've never been to the Western & Southern Open because I'm not that in to tennis but I have been to the facility a few times. The main stadium could use a canopy that covers all the seats. 

1 hour ago, Cincy513 said:

Considering they use the tennis center for other events throughout the year I'm sure way more then 10% of people in this city have set foot on the grounds.  But please continue talking about something you clearly know nothing about @Lazarus

 

I have pretty much never heard anyone bring up this tennis tournament in conversation in my entire life, despite having lived in Cincinnati for 30+ years.  Maybe 5 times.  I'm sure that I talk to hundreds of people each year.  People talk about football, basketball, UFC, etc., 1,000X more than they talk about tennis or this tournament, specifically. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

I have pretty much never heard anyone bring up this tennis tournament in conversation in my entire life, despite having lived in Cincinnati for 30+ years.  Maybe 5 times.  I'm sure that I talk to hundreds of people each year.  People talk about football, basketball, UFC, etc., 1,000X more than they talk about tennis or this tournament, specifically. 

 

 

What’s your point tho? That’s not a knock on the tournament lol. It says more about you and those that you surround yourself with in conversation. Clearly it’s extremely successful and very coveted, It brings lots of visitors+money to the region. Of course people talk about Football, Basketball, Baseball more even Soccer for that matter. Tennis as a sport is not as prominent as those others. Tennis also has a unique following, smaller base but much more affluent, educated, suburban than the other well known sports.

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

I have pretty much never heard anyone bring up this tennis tournament in conversation in my entire life, despite having lived in Cincinnati for 30+ years.  

Just got off the phone with John Barrett, he read what you said and is now ok with the tournament moving. 

On 7/24/2023 at 7:21 PM, Cincy13 said:

Hope you two are right. I go back to the owner saying that it would be $350M to improve here versus $400M to build new there. Obviously not true, but seems like another excuse for the move.

I would think that would be the opposite argument. $350M here is $50M less than there. I guess if you are a billionaire, then something may make it worth spending $50M more to relocate it along with all the other risks. I'm biased though.

29 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

Just got off the phone with John Barrett, he read what you said and is now ok with the tournament moving. 

 

Yeah the joke's on him when it leaves town he turns into a pumpkin. 

For this $400mil to build in Charlotte vs $350mil to keep it here costing evaluation, does anyone have an answer on where these numbers came from?

I realize he is a private business owner and it’s his money, but these numbers do not feel legitimate at all. Like not even close. Building a new tournament facility in Charlotte, with 40 tennis courts, some of them inside, with new stadiums comparable in size and stature to the ones in Mason for $400mil is insanity. The center court alone easily would cost like $100mil to rebuild.

I don’t see a hard value estimated for the value of the Mason site sale to go towards the build. If he can find a buyer interested in using the stadium, maybe he could make 50mil or so. If not, it’ll go for really cheap. A lot of destroyed value there.


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9 minutes ago, SWOH said:

For this $400mil to build in Charlotte vs $350mil to keep it here costing evaluation, does anyone have an answer on where these numbers came from?

I realize he is a private business owner and it’s his money, but these numbers do not feel legitimate at all. Like not even close. Building a new tournament facility in Charlotte, with 40 tennis courts, some of them inside, with new stadiums comparable in size and stature to the ones in Mason for $400mil is insanity. The center court alone easily would cost like $100mil to rebuild.

I don’t see a hard value estimated for the value of the Mason site sale to go towards the build. If he can find a buyer interested in using the stadium, maybe he could make 50mil or so. If not, it’ll go for really cheap. A lot of destroyed value there.


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Talking about a billionaire and his ego. He wants he tennis tournament in the Carolinas, in his backyard. Not in Ohio. 

14 minutes ago, SWOH said:

For this $400mil to build in Charlotte vs $350mil to keep it here costing evaluation, does anyone have an answer on where these numbers came from?

I realize he is a private business owner and it’s his money, but these numbers do not feel legitimate at all. Like not even close. Building a new tournament facility in Charlotte, with 40 tennis courts, some of them inside, with new stadiums comparable in size and stature to the ones in Mason for $400mil is insanity. The center court alone easily would cost like $100mil to rebuild.

I don’t see a hard value estimated for the value of the Mason site sale to go towards the build. If he can find a buyer interested in using the stadium, maybe he could make 50mil or so. If not, it’ll go for really cheap. A lot of destroyed value there.


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I think the numbers were $420 million for Charlotte and $150 million for Mason. Each area was to raise 1/3 of the capital themselves. 

I do think his numbers are accurate given that he also owns the facility in Charleston SC and he certainly understands the cost to build such a facility. 

Western-Southern CEO John Barrett was just on 700WLW.  He said that the announcement regarding the tournament's future will be made in 1-2 months.  He acted like he didn't know what the announcement will be but he also didn't sound worried, so hopefully he knows that the tournament is either a)staying or b)moving but will be replaced by a new ATP 1000 tournament. 

 

 

On 8/22/2023 at 1:53 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

I think the numbers were $420 million for Charlotte and $150 million for Mason. Each area was to raise 1/3 of the capital themselves. 

I do think his numbers are accurate given that he also owns the facility in Charleston SC and he certainly understands the cost to build such a facility. 

The new owner definitely said $350M for Mason. You would think an upgrade would be 150M to maybe $200M so that  high estimate, and the fact he shopped the plan to Charlotte makes me less than optimistic of it staying. I actually found one story in which the owner estimated the cost here at $375M - crazy.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/05/mason-commits-millions-western-southern-open.html

Edited August 29, 20231 yr by Cincy13

4 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Western-Southern CEO John Barrett was just on 700WLW.  He said that the announcement regarding the tournament's future will be made in 1-2 months.  He acted like he didn't know what the announcement will be but he also didn't sound worried, so hopefully he knows that the tournament is either a)staying or b)moving but will be replaced by a new ATP 1000 tournament. 

 

 

 

I'm cautiously optimistic that we might be a favorite to keep it. But I'm also 100% sure we will not get another ATP 1000 event. So we better hope it stays. 

6 hours ago, Cincy13 said:

The new owner definitely said $350M for Mason. You would think an upgrade would be 150M to maybe $200M so that  high estimate, and the fact he shopped the plan to Charlotte makes me less than optimistic of it staying. I actually found one story in which the owner estimated the cost here at $375M - crazy.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/05/mason-commits-millions-western-southern-open.html

Yeah the $150 million is just for the 1st phase of expansion in Mason.$375 million is a multiple phase project.The $150 mil project keeps the tournament in Mason though.The tournament field doubles in size in 2025 so the tournament facility needs double the court space by then.The $375 millon basically rebuilds the current stadiums and expands the new player facilities and new courts. 

The Miami tournament moved a few years ago to Joe Robbie Pro Players Landshark Hard Rock Stadium:

 

The same is possible, of course, in Cincinnati, where the main court could be held in Paul Brown Paycor Stadium, with smaller courts in the Lot E parking lot that forms a semicircle between the stadium and the river.  A small second stadium could be built in the doughnut hole north of the Brady Music Center:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0961702,-84.5141393,154m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Cincy13 said:

The new owner definitely said $350M for Mason. You would think an upgrade would be 150M to maybe $200M so that  high estimate, and the fact he shopped the plan to Charlotte makes me less than optimistic of it staying. I actually found one story in which the owner estimated the cost here at $375M - crazy.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/06/05/mason-commits-millions-western-southern-open.html

There have been a number of articles saying $150, others say $350 and a number of numbers bandied in between. It sounded as if $150 was the number lately but who knows, the reports seem to vary widely.

Miami's stadium is out in the middle of nowhere surrounded by parking.  Using the developable land around Paycor on tennis courts that would only rarely be used would be a waste.   

^ i had not heard of that as an option?? 

Mason seems like a good option. Yes, a urban tennis center would have been nice, but tennis fits fine in the burbs. In the US, most of it takes place in the burbs anyway.

 

What I think they should do, besides expansion is use a lot of the golf course land to develop a tennis/pickleball inspired neighborhood akin to Summit Park in Blue Ash. They can rebuild some of the hotels near there and create a walkable community anchored around the tennis center that activates it on a regular basis. 

If Western and Southern would have bought it, I could see a case for putting tennis courts over Fort Washington Way to make it the cap. It might even be possible to roll out artificial turf the majority of the year over it to let the space be a park until the tournament happens. It would be a killer good site, way better than anything they could do in Charlotte or Mason. TQL and PBS could be used for matches too. But it’s a pipe dream at best

20 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Miami's stadium is out in the middle of nowhere surrounded by parking.  Using the developable land around Paycor on tennis courts that would only rarely be used would be a waste.   

 

The current location in Mason doesn't lever any Cincinnati assets.  Relocating the tournament downtown would.  So would using Nippert Stadium and building the rest of the facility on UC's campus.  The tournament therefore advertises the university and the university gets a recruiting tool. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

The current location in Mason doesn't lever any Cincinnati assets.  Relocating the tournament downtown would.  So would using Nippert Stadium and building the rest of the facility on UC's campus.  The tournament therefore advertises the university and the university gets a recruiting tool. 

 

 

Why would the new owner be interested in moving the tournament to somewhere that he doesn't own and thus won't make all the profits?  It's either staying in Mason or leaving Cincy.  These pipe dreams of an urban tennis tournament are pointless unless someone local becomes the owner.  

6 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Why would the new owner be interested in moving the tournament to somewhere that he doesn't own and thus won't make all the profits?  It's either staying in Mason or leaving Cincy.  These pipe dreams of an urban tennis tournament are pointless unless someone local becomes the owner.  

John Barrett floated the idea of building a tennis complex downtown.

https://audioboom.com/posts/8096246-that-s-so-cincinnati-western-southern-s-john-barrett-on-retractable-roof-arena-tennis-tourney

 

That is about the time he was still in the bid to buy the tournament.Id say it is a pipedream at this point.

 

Fun fact the Davis Cup was held in the Convention Center in the early 80's

I saw on the local news that the state of North Carolina is struggling to pass it's state budget which is holding up $25 million for the Charlotte move. Hopefully somebody cuts that from the budget during final negotiations so we can let another state bungle a deal for a change.

https://www.wlwt.com/article/western-southern-open-staying-cincinnati-future-north-carolina/45494675

 

Western and Southern Open staying in Cincinnati ?!

51 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

https://www.wlwt.com/article/western-southern-open-staying-cincinnati-future-north-carolina/45494675

 

Western and Southern Open staying in Cincinnati ?!

Yupp!!!! Let’s go!!! HUGE. Cincy proves the haters wrong again.

 

“Ben (Owner) really got to see what this event was all about this year and I think that really swung everything Cincinnati’s way,” Bob Moran, Beemok’s president of sports and entertainment, told me. “He was blown away by the community, the volunteers and the experience. That really won the day.

“I can’t emphasize enough the community really stepping up to make this happen.”

Warren County Commissioners voted today on a measure that provided support for the event.

Beemok will invest more than $200 million in the Lindner Family Tennis Center to expand it in time for the ATP and WTA events to expand their fields to 96 players. The event will grow to two weeks at that point.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/10/10/western-southern-open-location-decision-made.html

Edited October 10, 20231 yr by 646empire

Glad this is staying here and in the Midwest. Not that losing it to the sun-belt would be "devastating" but its one of those death by a thousand cuts where Charlotte is already growing faster and the rich get richer. 

 

The international exposure is great to folks who would never come to the area without the tournament being here. Expanding it to two weeks creates many more patrons, along with the $200M in renovations will cement the facility as a top tennis destination for the foreseeable future. 

Been reading some of the Charlotte news POV on the announcement that they are sort of in shock that they lost the thing. Back in May it was a slam dunk for Charlotte. Kudos to the Cincinnati Business Community

Can't overstate how big this news is. In terms of stature, physical infrastructure that will be built, and just the region's psyche not being further beat down. I mean can you imagine this in addition to only have a few tower cranes up right now? (I keed, I keed)

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Been reading some of the Charlotte news POV on the announcement that they are sort of in shock that they lost the thing. Back in May it was a slam dunk for Charlotte. Kudos to the Cincinnati Business Community

The support of the Cincinnati community was huge. What was also a big piece was something that I have said multiple times during this whole saga: There is no way they are going to build a complex of that scale from scratch for just 400 Million, and that was confirmed in the below article. 
 

“According to a letter received from Beemok their ‘decision to stay was multi-faceted, but the consistent escalation of costs to construct a facility of this scale proved to be too much.’”
 

https://amp.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article280347519.html

Edited October 10, 20231 yr by 646empire

43 minutes ago, 646empire said:

The support of the Cincinnati community was huge. What was also a big piece was something that I have said multiple times during this whole saga: There is no way they are going to build a complex of that scale from scratch for just 400 Million, and that was confirmed in the below article. 
 

“According to a letter received from Beemok their ‘decision to stay was multi-faceted, but the consistent escalation of costs to construct a facility of this scale proved to be too much.’”

Considering a 16k seat modern arena would cost around $600 million, a new tennis facility should be roughly the same. 30k seat TQL was $300 million and a world class tennis center is about that plus all the additional courts and infrastructure on site. I am sure it would cost close to $500 million when all is said and done at potential 7.5%-8% interest rate.

 

Cincinnati showed they wanted it and was willing to fight for it. At the end of the day, it would have been a stupid decision to leave.  Why quit on something that already works very well and is well supported. It would be different if it were not supported at all. 

 

What I would love to see is Beemok open a regional office of Credit One and bring a few hundred Credit One jobs to Mason too as part of the tennis center complex (or even old Beach Waterpark) 

 

 

It's interering how charlotte thinks. 

"Peer cities like Paris, Rome, Shanghai, Montreal, Miami, all hold these types of tournaments, and so this is a unique opportunity for our community.” 

We can use that kinda enthusasium in Ohio.

 

It was interesting, I thought from the start that Beemok bought the tourney and approached Charlotte because they had familiarity with the region and wanted to be down there but it was actually Charlotte that approached Beemok and actively tried to poach the tourney. 

I was pleasantly surprised when I read the story yesterday morning - definitely good news! It will be interesting to see what the expansion looks like.

John Barrett, other leaders react to Western & Southern Open decision to stay in Greater Cincinnati

By Steve Watkins – Staff reporter, Cincinnati Business Courier

Oct 11, 2023

Updated Oct 11, 2023 10:17am EDT

 

The decision to keep the Western & Southern Open, a “crown jewel” event, in Greater Cincinnati for at least another quarter-century is “huge deal.”

 

That’s how local leaders reacted to Beemok Capital’s Oct. 10 announcement that the tournament, which generates an estimated $80 million in annual economic impact and will see a big increase in that figure in future years, will remain at Mason's Lindner Family Tennis Center for at least 25 years.

 

John Barrett, CEO of downtown-based insurance giant Western & Southern Financial Group, said it was vital for the region to keep the tournament here.

 

MORE

17 minutes ago, Cincy13 said:

I was pleasantly surprised when I read the story yesterday morning - definitely good news! It will be interesting to see what the expansion looks like.

we were out last week with some friends talking about the tourney. I was telling them that it looked 90% at that time that it was going to stay (from what I had been hearing) and that we should hear something this week. Of course the deal was already done and the people in the know could not fully announce it yet, but they were strongly confident the last 2-3 weeks that it was going to stay which was a good indicator.

17 hours ago, unusualfire said:

It's interering how charlotte thinks. 

"Peer cities like Paris, Rome, Shanghai, Montreal, Miami, all hold these types of tournaments, and so this is a unique opportunity for our community.” 

We can use that kinda enthusasium in Ohio.

 

Love Charlotte's chutzpah on this, but Cincinnati should probably aim a little more realistically. We can't even build bike lanes as nice as Dayton's.

 

Very great news on the tennis tournament (and I say that as someone with absolutely no interest in it). Now lets work out dedicated bus service to get out of town visitors in and out of there quickly. 

Edited October 11, 20231 yr by Gordon Bombay

Not sure if this has been shared here or not, first time I've seen it. Came from this article.

I do not love it. Wish they had a bunch of apartments and a mixed use living community integrated with the Tennis Center

Are those water slides on the right side?  There is a water park and Great Wolf Lodge nearby.   Maybe it's a slide of some sort or just artistic reach by the renderer.

 

 

42 minutes ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

Are those water slides on the right side?  There is a water park and Great Wolf Lodge nearby.   Maybe it's a slide of some sort or just artistic reach by the renderer.

 

 

It's a strange stab at speculative public art I'd guess, as loop-the-loops are bad slide design.

It's Mason's logo.

 

Barrett says keeping Western & Southern Open is 'monstrous,' talks future of title sponsorship

 

John Barrett heard the response he was looking for midweek during this year's Western & Southern Open, which bears his company’s name, while talking to a representative of the tournament’s new owners.

 

“One of the Beemok (Capital) guys said to me, ‘I’m not sure we could pull this off anywhere else,’” Barrett, CEO of Fortune 500 insurance company Western & Southern Financial Group, told me Wednesday, Oct. 11, in a one-on-one interview.

 

Beemok Capital, the family office of Charleston, S.C., billionaire Ben Navarro, bought the tournament a year ago. It had been strongly considering moving it to Charlotte, N.C., where plans were in the works to build a $400 million tennis facility to serve as the tournament’s future home.

 

But Cincinnati officials fought to keep it and felt their best ammunition was the tournament itself. It was played at the Lindner Family Tennis Center in Mason, its home since 1979, for the first time under Beemok ownership this year Aug. 12-20. But its history in Cincinnati is far longer. The tournament has called the region home for 124 years, dating to 1899.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/10/12/barrett-title-sponsorship-western-southern-open.html

 

Western & Southern Open reveals planned changes to Lindner Family Tennis Center

 

The Western & Southern Open’s new owners have unveiled the first of several projects that are part of their $260 million planned investment in the Lindner Family Tennis Center.

 

Beemok Capital, the Charleston, S.C.-based family office of billionaire Ben Navarro, is fully renovating the seating at Center Court of the tennis center in Mason that is the tournament’s home. The Western & Southern Open is one of the world’s nine biggest tennis tournaments hosting high-level men’s and women’s tour events at the same time in the same venue.

 

The renovation is part of numerous changes Beemok is planning as part of an expansion of the Lindner Family Tennis Center. It needs to accommodate a planned increase in 2025 to 96 players on both the men’s and women’s sides from 56 each now.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/12/13/western-southern-open-reveals-planned-changes-to.html

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/12/13/western-southern-open-reveals-planned-changes-to.html

 

I used to think how ugly the seats at the old RIverfront Coliseum  were with the different colors disbursed throughout and the other 1970s era arenas who used the same seating design. I see that trend is coming back. SMH

15 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/12/13/western-southern-open-reveals-planned-changes-to.html

 

I used to think how ugly the seats at the old RIverfront Coliseum  were with the different colors disbursed throughout and the other 1970s era arenas who used the same seating design. I see that trend is coming back. SMH

Yupp it’s definitely coming back, have noticed it more and more in new venues and renovations recently. I do like this blue combo tho.

Edited December 14, 20231 yr by 646empire

24 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/12/13/western-southern-open-reveals-planned-changes-to.html

 

I used to think how ugly the seats at the old RIverfront Coliseum  were with the different colors disbursed throughout and the other 1970s era arenas who used the same seating design. I see that trend is coming back. SMH

 It's ugly but supposed to give the illusion more people are in the stands especially when televised. It's not very successful though, was glad to see FCC let the fans vote for a design that wasn't the "sprinkles" color effect...