It's staying in Cincinnati for the foreseeable future.It was a unofficial  condition of the sale the tournament would remain until at a minimum the lease expires in 2029.The new owner is also dropping $50 million for new upgrades for next year.

The tournament predates the Lindners.  It started at this tennis court in Walnut Hills about 100 years ago:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1339899,-84.4691437,123m/data=!3m1!1e3

Yeah the Cincinnati Masters or Cincinnati Open (branded as the Western & Southern Open for sponsorship reasons) is the oldest tennis tournament in the US.

 

The facility still has their name on it and the Lindner's have front row seats every year.  I have no idea how involved they are but it certainly seems like they still support the tournament.  

41 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

The tournament only exists because the tennis-loving Lindner's started it. They have not been involved in years.  Now that a tennis-loving billionaire from Charlotte has bought it, I do think its days are numbered in Mason. 

 

The only way it stays in Mason is if the billionaire is able to upgrade his existing Charlotte tournament into a Masters-level one.  

This isn’t true, that tournament and Cincinnati roots run long and deep, The Lindners are very involved, the tennis center is named after them for god sakes lolllll. 

Edited April 26, 20232 yr by 646empire

3 hours ago, 646empire said:

This isn’t true, that tournament and Cincinnati roots run long and deep, The Lindners are very involved, the tennis center is named after them for god sakes lolllll. 

 

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  We would not have a Masters-1000 tournament today without the Lindner's support in the past.  The center was sold to the ATP a long time ago and now to a Charleston billionaire.  The Lindner's do not have control over the fate of the tournament.  I think you might be naïve to how things actually happen at this level.  

Edited April 26, 20232 yr by nicker66

7 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

 

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  We would not have a Masters-1000 tournament today without the Lindner's support in the past.  The center was sold to the ATP a long time ago and now to a Charlotte billionaire.  The Lindner's do not have control over the fate of the tournament.  I think you might be naïve to how things actually happen at this level.  

 

Sorry you keep saying Charlotte but he is based in Charleston, SC where he is building up the LTP center and Credit One Stadium on Daniel Island that host the Women Charleston Open. Interesting is there site already shows this interesting icon. 

 

Plenty of freeway noise at the Charleston tourney site, just like in Mason:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8630163,-79.9011705,3a,17.7y,229.36h,86.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snWwitGCQIdGnlX2PWq8skQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

5 minutes ago, savadams13 said:

 

Sorry you keep saying Charlotte but he is based in Charleston, SC where he is building up the LTP center and Credit One Stadium on Daniel Island that host the Women Charleston Open. Interesting is there site already shows this interesting icon. 

 

They own the tournament rights and it says Cincinnati what's the point? I know for a fact this ownership group is INVESTING in the Lindner Tennis Center complex.The tournament isn't moving anytime soon.

The ATP also has no interest in moving the tournament. It’s a hard no. 

I hope the tournament stays in Cincinnati forever, but money talks with sports teams or sporting events.  They can move very easily.  

3 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

I hope the tournament stays in Cincinnati forever, but money talks with sports teams or sporting events.  They can move very easily.  

Again part of the sales bidding process for the tournament  was the ATP selling to new ownership that committed to keeping the tournament in Mason.It ain't moving soon

35 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

 

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  We would not have a Masters-1000 tournament today without the Lindner's support in the past.  The center was sold to the ATP a long time ago and now to a Charleston billionaire.  The Lindner's do not have control over the fate of the tournament.  I think you might be naïve to how things actually happen at this level.  

I think you don’t understand what I’m saying actually lol. No one on here has ever said the Lindners have control over the fate of the tournament???? If they did we wouldn’t be having this convo lol. We all know they don’t own it. What I am saying is they are still involved in the W&S Open and are very supportive of the tournament which MATTERS.

Edited April 26, 20232 yr by 646empire

9 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

I hope the tournament stays in Cincinnati forever, but money talks with sports teams or sporting events.  They can move very easily.  

Money does talk and they make plenty of it in Mason. I think your mistaken in thinking moving this tournament is as simple as the new owner sneezing, it’s not.

Speaking of money talking, the Lindner Family Tennis Center is the only non-Grand Slam event venue with more than two stadiums. The Charleston location has one, which even after expansion is smaller than Lindner's Center Court. Are they going to build three more stadiums on the Charleston grounds? It would be very foolish to abandon one of the nicest tennis centers in the world to move the tournament and have to put tens of millions into the new location to bring it up to par. I'm not saying it is impossible. Billionaires sometimes do foolish things in the name of ego (see Elon Musk), but it would be very dumb.

Charlotte becoming an ATP 1000 event would be like the Dayton Dragons becoming an MLB team. The WS draws from a pool of 25 million people who are within a 5 hour drive. Attendance is very good, and it'll only rise as this next generation continues to evolve (Alcaraz, Sinner, etc). There’s history here as well. And the Ohio House just passed a bill giving the tournament $23 million for an expansion project (which I’ll have more on tomorrow.) This isn’t a real conversation. 

Edited April 26, 20232 yr by Pdrome513

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

Speaking of money talking, the Lindner Family Tennis Center is the only non-Grand Slam event venue with more than two stadiums. The Charleston location has one, which even after expansion is smaller than Lindner's Center Court. Are they going to build three more stadiums on the Charleston grounds? It would be very foolish to abandon one of the nicest tennis centers in the world to move the tournament and have to put tens of millions into the new location to bring it up to par. I'm not saying it is impossible. Billionaires sometimes do foolish things in the name of ego (see Elon Musk), but it would be very dumb.

 

A billionaire that is passionate about tennis and passionate about his hometown cannot be reasoned with.  I really hope the tournament stays here forever, but this would be the least surprising move ever.  

7 minutes ago, nicker66 said:

 

A billionaire that is passionate about tennis and passionate about his hometown cannot be reasoned with.  I really hope the tournament stays here forever, but this would be the least surprising move ever.  

Well good thing it is staying.There is a 80-100 mil expansion project being planned and being  funded with at least $50 on it privately by the WS new owners.....

All we have to do is get Joe Burrow to say he loves having the tournament here and we’ll have it forever.

Western and Southern Open primed for $150M expansion in Warren County 

 

https://www.fox19.com/2023/04/28/western-southern-open-primed-150m-expansion-warren-county/

4 hours ago, Pdrome513 said:

Western and Southern Open primed for $150M expansion in Warren County 

 

https://www.fox19.com/2023/04/28/western-southern-open-primed-150m-expansion-warren-county/

Wow that’s HUGE. And puts the moving speculation to bed. Super for Cincinnati and Ohio really.

It's hard to believe that they're tripling down on this site.  This even would be so much nicer and a much better advertisement for our region if it were somewhere specific rather than somewhere random.  

 

Almost no trees.  Add some neon giraffes and it's Trader's World:

33 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Wow that’s HUGE. And puts the moving speculation to bed. Super for Cincinnati and Ohio really.

It still needs to pass the Senate. I assume that is a formality at this point but you never know. 

7 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

It's hard to believe that they're tripling down on this site.  This even would be so much nicer and a much better advertisement for our region if it were somewhere specific rather than somewhere random.  

 

Almost no trees.  Add some neon giraffes and it's Trader's World:

It’s in Mason a bustling Cincinnati suburb and across from Kings Island who get millions of visitors per year. Calling the location random is strange.

13 minutes ago, 646empire said:

It’s in Mason a bustling Cincinnati suburb and across from Kings Island who get millions of visitors per year. Calling the location random is strange.

 

Random?  What if it was on the opposite side of the highway, adjacent to King's Island?  We had a huge debate - a public vote, even - over the location of our new baseball stadium.  The Wedge vs. Broadway Commons was about the same distance as a hypothetical pancake flip over I-71.  

 

Back in 2014, The NY Times (rightly) made fun of the location:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/sports/tennis/applebees-a-suburban-staple-for-cincinnati-masters-players.html

 

 

 

I would be curious to see which side of the property they choose to expand on.

I get the applebees joke and obviously I wish the tournament was somewhere more convenient to the city, but that article is also referencing life in 1997 through the early 2000s. Today you would have to drive past Zundo Ramen, Two Cities Pizza, Sonder Brewing etc. to get all the way to the Applebees on Fields Ertel.

 

Plus this is typical for big tournament locations, US open isn't in Manhattan it's in Flushing Meadows, the Miami Open isn't in downtown it's out in Miami Gardens wedged between two interstates, hell even Wimbledon is way in the outskirts of London. 

17 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Plus this is typical for big tournament locations, US open isn't in Manhattan it's in Flushing Meadows, the Miami Open isn't in downtown it's out in Miami Gardens wedged between two interstates, hell even Wimbledon is way in the outskirts of London. 

SPOT ON. As much as we love our urban cities everything is not going to be downtown or in ultra central locations. I’d argue the W&S Open is best right where it is, it’s the kind of event that doesn’t need to be downtown or central city. Clearly it’s doing VERY well where it is I love it being out in Mason by Kings Island

Edited April 28, 20232 yr by 646empire

40 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Random?  What if it was on the opposite side of the highway, adjacent to King's Island?  We had a huge debate - a public vote, even - over the location of our new baseball stadium.  The Wedge vs. Broadway Commons was about the same distance as a hypothetical pancake flip over I-71.  

 

 

 

And yet the players and fans rave about it.

15 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

And yet the players and fans rave about it.

 

Yeah, a complex next to an interstate highway in Mason, OH and sponsored by a boring insurance company somehow compares to Monaco and a sponsorship by Rolex:

 

 

32 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

Yeah, a complex next to an interstate highway in Mason, OH and sponsored by a boring insurance company somehow compares to Monaco and a sponsorship by Rolex:

 

 

You’re the only one that compared Mason to Monaco and W&S to Rolex. It’s no secret and well documented that the tournament is very well liked by fans and players from all over. Get over it haha.

49 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

And yet the players and fans rave about it.

It is a bit more complicated and nuanced than that. Many fans love it because it is a good family environment in the burbs. Certainly, there are some younger fans who may prefer it is in the city, but there will always be debate no matter where it is held.

 

on the player side, the issues I have heard is that the top of the top players in the tourney like it. They rent a luxury house for the week and bring their families and staff to cook for them and it offers a bit more of a relaxing tourney while they tune up for the US Open a couple weeks later.   The complaints are coming from many of the younger players who are not as highly ranked who hate the tourney location because they do not have families and they cannot afford to stay in the same accommodations as say a Serena Williams or Djokovic, etc.  So, when they get done with their matches late at night, there is often not the availability of options where they can get the type of food they need/want or if they have specific ethnic food desires, they cant find it in the burbs as easily (especially late at night). Now, the presumption is they could find it better in the city (or moreso in a larger market) but that may not always be accurate either. Furthermore, the lack of a hub airport also causes some pain for some of the lower ranked players in the tourney who can't fly private (Now moving to Charleston does not really solve this issue but it has been one of the complaints I have heard on the tourney). 

 

I certainly understand the complaints but does moving it to a larger market really solve that issue? I am doubtful on that. If you move it to say Chicago, you are also going to be in the burbs with the same issue. Atlanta had their old tennis center way out in the burbs (which is no longer now), and you would figure outside of say a Boston or Miami (which are not going to get the tourney for numerous reasons and obviously New York which is already set for their tourney, I do not see where another market can really meet all of these concerns by the players. 

Also, as beautiful as the photo of the Monte Carlo Masters is, it's a funny example because while the Cincinnati Masters are played in Mason... The Monte Carlo Masters is played outside of Monte Carlo, in fact outside of the country of Monaco in nearby France. 

 

We have one of 9 ATP Masters tournaments in the world in the Cincy metro, including the Majors it's one of the 13 most important tennis tournaments in the whole world. The fact that Cincinnati is in the same sentence as Monte Carlo, Paris, Shanghai, Miami etc is why this $150 million expansion is great news and I hope it stays here forever. Like we get it, URBAN Ohio doesn't like SUBURBAN Mason Ohio, but it's better than letting the tournament move to Charlotte or Charelson

1 hour ago, 646empire said:

You’re the only one that compared Mason to Monaco and W&S to Rolex. It’s no secret and well documented that the tournament is very well liked by fans and players from all over. Get over it haha.

 

Also, Rolex is a sponsor of the Cincinnati tournament too. Just not the lead sponsor.

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

It is a bit more complicated and nuanced than that. Many fans love it because it is a good family environment in the burbs. Certainly, there are some younger fans who may prefer it is in the city, but there will always be debate no matter where it is held.

 

on the player side, the issues I have heard is that the top of the top players in the tourney like it. They rent a luxury house for the week and bring their families and staff to cook for them and it offers a bit more of a relaxing tourney while they tune up for the US Open a couple weeks later.   The complaints are coming from many of the younger players who are not as highly ranked who hate the tourney location because they do not have families and they cannot afford to stay in the same accommodations as say a Serena Williams or Djokovic, etc.  So, when they get done with their matches late at night, there is often not the availability of options where they can get the type of food they need/want or if they have specific ethnic food desires, they cant find it in the burbs as easily (especially late at night). Now, the presumption is they could find it better in the city (or moreso in a larger market) but that may not always be accurate either. Furthermore, the lack of a hub airport also causes some pain for some of the lower ranked players in the tourney who can't fly private (Now moving to Charleston does not really solve this issue but it has been one of the complaints I have heard on the tourney). 

 

I certainly understand the complaints but does moving it to a larger market really solve that issue? I am doubtful on that. If you move it to say Chicago, you are also going to be in the burbs with the same issue. Atlanta had their old tennis center way out in the burbs (which is no longer now), and you would figure outside of say a Boston or Miami (which are not going to get the tourney for numerous reasons and obviously New York which is already set for their tourney, I do not see where another market can really meet all of these concerns by the players. 

 

I happen to have the privilege to get to interact with a lot of the players every year, including many of the young up and coming ones. I have never heard any of them complain. That's obviously anecdotal, but my experience is that they are obsessed with King's Island and that many of them do venture down into the city once they've been eliminated from the tournament. Many stick around and hang out for the rest of the week and look forward to it each year.

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

many of them do venture down into the city once they've been eliminated from the tournament. Many stick around and hang out for the rest of the week and look forward to it each year.

Sooooo there should be a rail line from KI to downtown

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I happen to have the privilege to get to interact with a lot of the players every year, including many of the young up and coming ones. I have never heard any of them complain. That's obviously anecdotal, but my experience is that they are obsessed with King's Island and that many of them do venture down into the city once they've been eliminated from the tournament. Many stick around and hang out for the rest of the week and look forward to it each year.

Dont get me wrong, my info is anecdotal too, speaking with (not tennis players) but people involved on the periphery of the tournament. That is what they have mentioned (right, wrong or indifferent). I guess, I could see the point from the lower level player who is non-American playing in an event without some of the amenities they may be able to have in say Chicago, Miami, etc. but I probably think some of their complaints are in the minority and overall, to your point, the experience of the fans and players is overall very positive. 

 

I tend to agree with your position more than the position that people hate playing there just by the simple fact that if the players hated playing in the tournament (Masters Series or not) they would not play there and the tourney would rank as the lowest for top participation amongst the worlds top players. Sure, purse size matters, but if the players hated coming there, many would skip it for other events. 

37 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Dont get me wrong, my info is anecdotal too, speaking with (not tennis players) but people involved on the periphery of the tournament. That is what they have mentioned (right, wrong or indifferent). I guess, I could see the point from the lower level player who is non-American playing in an event without some of the amenities they may be able to have in say Chicago, Miami, etc. but I probably think some of their complaints are in the minority and overall, to your point, the experience of the fans and players is overall very positive. 

 

I tend to agree with your position more than the position that people hate playing there just by the simple fact that if the players hated playing in the tournament (Masters Series or not) they would not play there and the tourney would rank as the lowest for top participation amongst the worlds top players. Sure, purse size matters, but if the players hated coming there, many would skip it for other events. 

 

About 15 years ago my college roommate's ex-girlfriend competed in the beach volleyball tournament.  She and her teammate flew out from LA and stayed at the sad Super 8 next to the tennis complex:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mason,+OH/@39.3554098,-84.2674657,287m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x884057a89a9a35ef:0xbd5cb1c4195f3d13!8m2!3d39.3600586!4d-84.309939!16zL20vMHoyX18

 

They're like, is there anything to do around here?  Answer: no.  So put yourself in their shoes (actually, sandy feet) - you spend your own money to fly to Northern Kentucky, to take a cab to Mason, to stay at a Super 8 in a shared room, and to pay the entry fee to this tournament, with the huge risk of not making any prize money.  If you get knocked out early you are going to be pissed that you spent that money and you're stuck out in goddamn Mason without anything to do.  Are you going to go across the highway to King's Island and ride rides with a teammate who you're pissed off at?

 

 

 

I mean...  i'd take it over the mega-kroger/crossroads/suburban nonsense that is 'center of cincinnati'.

that said, its fine up in mason.  i just wish there some mega pedestrian bridge that connected it to kings island and that both the tennis and kings island addressed the interstate more than surface parking

Edited April 28, 20232 yr by jack.c.amos
spelling

32 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

About 15 years ago my college roommate's ex-girlfriend competed in the beach volleyball tournament.  She and her teammate flew out from LA and stayed at the sad Super 8 next to the tennis complex:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mason,+OH/@39.3554098,-84.2674657,287m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x884057a89a9a35ef:0xbd5cb1c4195f3d13!8m2!3d39.3600586!4d-84.309939!16zL20vMHoyX18

 

They're like, is there anything to do around here?  Answer: no.  So put yourself in their shoes (actually, sandy feet) - you spend your own money to fly to Northern Kentucky, to take a cab to Mason, to stay at a Super 8 in a shared room, and to pay the entry fee to this tournament, with the huge risk of not making any prize money.  If you get knocked out early you are going to be pissed that you spent that money and you're stuck out in goddamn Mason without anything to do.  Are you going to go across the highway to King's Island and ride rides with a teammate who you're pissed off at?

 

 

You lost me at “15 Years ago”. Super 8? Taking a Cab? Different times my friend. Mason and the region itself has changed ALOT over those years. 

The Super 8 is still there.  The Cincinnati and Dayton airports haven't moved.  The tennis complex still doesn't have many trees and feels like it was plunked down in a random spot.  The Applebee's now has Yelp reviews: https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=applebee's&find_loc=Mason%2C+OH+45040

just found the HQ rendering!!!

39 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

The Super 8 is still there.  The Cincinnati and Dayton airports haven't moved.  The tennis complex still doesn't have many trees and feels like it was plunked down in a random spot.  The Applebee's now has Yelp reviews: https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=applebee's&find_loc=Mason%2C+OH+45040

The Applebees is now a First Financial Bank branch. The tennis complex does remind me of the old Richfield Coliseum in NE Ohio. It was in the middle of nowhere and there was absolutely nothing convenient to that place.  the good news for your volleyball friend, if she does not like Kings Island she can spend her day hanging out at the Beach Waterpark.... O Wait..... 

2 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

the good news for your volleyball friend, if she does not like Kings Island she can spend her day hanging out at the Beach Waterpark.... O Wait..... 

 

She was a scholarship athlete at our college.  Per Google, her highest finish at a beach volley tourney was 13th.  Look at these meager career earnings after entering 67 events:

 

 

 

 

On 4/28/2023 at 3:59 PM, Lazarus said:

 

She was a scholarship athlete at our college.  Per Google, her highest finish at a beach volley tourney was 13th.  Look at these meager career earnings after entering 67 events:

 

 

 

 

Volleyball does not pay what Tennis does. 

I really like the addition rendering. of course it's an idea but still impressive. I thought even the lowest ranked tennis players had backers. And, have you ever played golf in Charleston in August? 100 and muggy, not cincy muggy but swamp muggy. Younger kids, if they don't like conservative cincy are already close to Columbus. A town bustling with youngkins. In my youth all that stuff about food and housing was unimportant. Visiting almost anywhere that is not home was totally fascinating. I don't know how much a newby gets per year, but this town is much cheaper than Paris, London or Monaco. I looked up last year's tennis winnings. The last on the list ranked #200     Otto Virtanen    Finland   points 515     $78,249. You need to work harder Otto.

This is one of the nicest tennis facilities in the world.  Anyone who thinks it should be moved to somewhere else in Cincy is being completely unrealistic.  To build this complex in a new location would likely cost close to a billion.  

On 4/28/2023 at 3:12 PM, Lazarus said:

The Super 8 is still there.  The Cincinnati and Dayton airports haven't moved.  The tennis complex still doesn't have many trees and feels like it was plunked down in a random spot.  The Applebee's now has Yelp reviews: https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=applebee's&find_loc=Mason%2C+OH+45040

 

Do you hate everything? 

A Warren County Commissioner was just on the radio asserting that the tournament absolutely is "not safe".  This could be a situation where the new owner is acting like he is "trying to make it work" at its current location but he has every intention of moving it.   

2 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

A Warren County Commissioner was just on the radio asserting that the tournament absolutely is "not safe".  This could be a situation where the new owner is acting like he is "trying to make it work" at its current location but he has every intention of moving it.   

 

A Warren County Commissioner said something on a carnival barker show? Definitely trust that.

On 5/3/2023 at 11:43 AM, DEPACincy said:

 

So there is this....Charlotte or Cincinnati 

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2023/05/10/western-southern-open-tennis-river-district-beemok.html

 

https://twitter.com/JoeBrunoWSOC9/status/1656292018727821312?t=rXjQ-yZgK_dc-CnuXC-sfw&s=19