I also think that Covington/Newport should be fighting for this as well.  Basketball is huge in KY, and KY has no NBA, NFL, MLB, or NHL teams.  They could put an arena near the river so it would essentially be a Cincinnati team, but they could brand it as the "Kentucky nnnnnnnn" and pull in basketball fans from around the state.  It would accomplish putting an NBA team back into the 25th largest US market and into a state that is totally overlooked by pro-sports currently.  Also, then KY could pay to build the arena this time.

 

These are some interesting thoughts that would seem worth examining should this possibility come about.  With that said, it will NEVER happen.  The money interests, for major-league franchises, are on the Ohio side...they are ultimately what will or will not bring a team here.  You can throw attendance, population, market size, etc out the window.

 

With that being the case I then say it is impossible for the Cincy area to get another team.  I just don't think the power brokers are interested in drawing another major-league team to the area.  The taxpayers sure as heck aren't going to pay for an arena (in either Ohio or KY).

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

 

According to that webpage, GABP is a pitcher's park.

bottom five nfl

 

 

27 st louis

28 Chicago

29 Pittsburgh

30 Detroit

31 Oakland

32 Indianapolis

 

 

Indy is deceiving because of their small stadium.  Look at the % of capacity statistic, that gives a good idea of the team's true attendance.

 

Same with detroit, they purposely built a smaller stadium to avoid blackouts (long story and reason short)

I'm not sure about Detroit, but I know that Oakland has trouble filling its stadium these years. Otherwise, most NFL teams fill up their stadiums.

U.S. Bank Arena wouldn't work well for an NBA team. No boxes and the ones they do have are too high up.  Any hopes for a new arena would be in Butler, Warren, maybe Montgomery Counties. With 5/3 Arena being redone/torn down in the next 5-10 years, that could also be a possibility.

 

A possibility for what?  An NBA team? 

 

I think the UC area has enough traffic as it is.  I could see that as safety issue as well.

I also think that Covington/Newport should be fighting for this as well. Basketball is huge in KY, and KY has no NBA, NFL, MLB, or NHL teams. They could put an arena near the river so it would essentially be a Cincinnati team, but they could brand it as the "Kentucky nnnnnnnn" and pull in basketball fans from around the state. It would accomplish putting an NBA team back into the 25th largest US market and into a state that is totally overlooked by pro-sports currently. Also, then KY could pay to build the arena this time.

 

These are some interesting thoughts that would seem worth examining should this possibility come about. With that said, it will NEVER happen. The money interests, for major-league franchises, are on the Ohio side...they are ultimately what will or will not bring a team here. You can throw attendance, population, market size, etc out the window.

 

With that being the case I then say it is impossible for the Cincy area to get another team. I just don't think the power brokers are interested in drawing another major-league team to the area. The taxpayers sure as heck aren't going to pay for an arena (in either Ohio or KY).

 

True.  Just thinking outside the box.  People routinely claim that the region couldn't support a 3rd team, when several cities of Cincinnati's size already do.  Even if we don't end up with another team, Cincinnati should try to at least be in the conversation the next time the NBA (or NHL) decides to expand.

We need to find a new rich guy with a big ego. The NBA seems to be dominated by those types. I have to think we could make a play to get back into the AHL again. That was such a debacle with Clones versus the Ducks.

^ No kidding.  There are no words for how happy I was to see the ultra-lame Mighty Ducks leave town.  I'd love to see the Cyclones replace them in the AHL eventually.

 

As for the NBA, you really hit the nail on the head there.  I'd step up to be that owner, but unfortunately my funds don't match my ego, so I only meet half of the requirements.  :-D

Maybe there could be a Cincinnati-Dayton team at a new arena by the Big Butter Jesus.  They could be called The Butler County Butt-Wipes. 

 

 

 

^ I was watching Fox Sports Net Ohio and they were giving away Reds tickets at the Columbus Destroyers game. Also, anyone that listens to the Reds on 700WLW can account for the callers that call in from Columbus and Dayton that just left the game and are driving home.

 

... something to think about.

People routinely claim that the region couldn't support a 3rd team, when several cities of Cincinnati's size already do.

 

Who? I can't think of any markets (DMA's) Cincinnati's size with three teams. In fact, Cincinnati is rare to have two teams. Its DMA is smaller than Columbus.

What's this stuff about DMA. I hope you know Cincinnati has the smallest DMA geography wise of EVERYONE above it.

Getting an NBA team isn't based on population, doesn't anyone on here pay any attention to sports, lol... Its all about having an arena suitable to NBA standards. You build it, they will come. That has been proven over the years. Seattle lost their team to Oklahoma because seattle failed to build a new arena, although their attendance doesn't help the issue along with the oldest & smallest arena in the NBA. An example of bad to worse would be Vancouver to memphis.

^ In mid-sized markets, yes.  In big markets, the arena isn't a big factor because they always draw.

^ Tell that to los angeles who lost two NFL teams, although that was football, but still. Larger population has an advantage but that's as far as it goes, it doesn't translate into league leading attendance. Good teams & nice venues are the major factors.

I'm not quite sure why LA still has the Clippers anyway.

People routinely claim that the region couldn't support a 3rd team, when several cities of Cincinnati's size already do.

 

Who? I can't think of any markets (DMA's) Cincinnati's size with three teams. In fact, Cincinnati is rare to have two teams. Its DMA is smaller than Columbus.

 

I can't speak for DMA's because I honestly don't know much about them, but if we're just talking about raw population...  Cincinnati's metro population is bigger than Cleveland's, which has 3 teams.  It's also about a quarter to a third of a million short of Pittsburgh's and Denver's metro populations, both of which support 3 teams.  I was actually thinking of St. Louis when I wrote that post, but after checking the numbers I see that they are actually larger than I thought, putting them right there with Tampa and San Diego, with about 700k more people than Cincy.

 

Time made a good point above, though.  For mid-market cities, the willingness to build a new arena is key.  At the end of the day, I don't think Cincy would be willing to do this, after the bad taste the last 2 stadiums left in taxpayer's mouths.  However, these opportunities are pretty rare, so I'd be very upset if the NBA (or NHL) announces an intended expansion in the near future and Cincinnati doesn't at least throw its hat in the ring.

Really this Cleveland vs Cincy metro population argument is overplayed too much!  Clevelanders will use 2.9 mil number when everyone will use the 2.2 +/- number.  Houston only has 3 teams and has 3.5 million more people in the metro area than Cincy (based on a quick wikipedia check) so what's your point?  Let's not forget Seattle who will probably have two teams soon if/when the Sonics leave.

 

There's more to the number of franchises per city than population--they're rooted deep into most older cities--cultural institutions in one sense.  I'd be as suprised to see Cincy/Dayton getting an NBA team  as Cleveland landing ANOTHER NHL team.

 

 

^I'm not ripping Cleveland.  I love that town.  Actually, I guess I could have phrased that better, so accept my apologies if that was read as a slight.  I was just pointing out that there ARE cities of similar size that have no trouble supporting 3 teams, because people in Cincy usually argue that we're too small to consider one more.

There's more to the number of franchises per city than population--they're rooted deep into most older cities--cultural institutions in one sense.

 

That is a good point cle2032, most cities with newer teams are struggling for support. Miami, tampa, jacksonville fl, charlotte, new orleans, memphis & denver have all had expansion teams or new teams that struggle. One exception would be seattle, as the sonics are the oldest pro team in seattle, they will be moving soon.

^ New Orleans actually does pretty well, considering what they've been through.  As for Miami, Tampa, and Jacksonville, look where they're located.  Pro sports tends to do better in cities with climates that aren't as ideal as Florida's (see Cleveland, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Boston, New York, Seattle, etc).  The obvious exception would be Phoenix and some of the cities in California.  Unfortunately for Seattle, this move has little to do with fan support, just as the Browns unfortunate exodus in 1996 had more to do with stadiums than support.

 

I don't know about Memphis and Denver.  Do the Rockies struggle?  There's definitely something to the notion of older teams being a cultural institution, but that doesn't necessarily mean that new teams can't succeed.  The Titans and Nationals seem to be doing pretty well in Nashville and Washington.

Nationals are doing way under their expected numbers for the new stadium. Some of that supposedly is the piss poor location of the facility, but also the team sucks (Jim Bowden).

^Hmm.  I thought I remembered hearing that they were doing well.  Guess I was wrong.  Honestly, I thought that Washington was a poor fit originally, given its proximity to Baltimore, which already had the Orioles.  That would be a bit like Columbus getting an NBA team, except that Baltimore is about as far away from Washington as Akron is from Cleveland, so it's really even worse than that. 

^Yeah, but Cleveland's DMA includes Akron AND Canton.  Isn't that a bit like lumping Dayton in with Cincinnati, which would raise Cincy to virtually the same DMA as Cleveland?  Obviously, we're not the ones designating what the DMA does and does not include, but even if we're talking about market reach, Cincy is closer to Cleveland than the MSA implies.

The other part is that even though Cincy's media market is small, it's sports teams have long had a much larger hinterland than many teams in the country, esp. the Reds. Kentucky, W.V. (esp. Huntington and Charleston and further south are Reds towns), and for the purpose of MLB and NFL, Dayton belongs in the Cincy market. I swear more Daytonians go to Reds and Bengals games that Cincinnatians or so it seems on I-75 after the game.

^That's a good point C-Dawg.  Akron started a news program (their own news) in the mid 90's, and I just read that it is shutting down.  They have all Cleveland news now.  I can't speak for Canton, but I know our news covers them also.

 

As for the Florida teams and low attendence, it is hard to draw a fan base when individuals did not grow up watching the team.  Most of the residents in Miami, Tampa, and Jacksonville are transplants that do not have the history, or legacy and memories of sporting events in that city.  There is no established Dawg Pound, or Who Dey statements etc.  Sports draw from the history, and not just the fact that there is a team there with a flashy stadium. 

^Yeah, but Cleveland's DMA includes Akron AND Canton.  Isn't that a bit like lumping Dayton in with Cincinnati, which would raise Cincy to virtually the same DMA as Cleveland?  Obviously, we're not the ones designating what the DMA does and does not include, but even if we're talking about market reach, Cincy is closer to Cleveland than the MSA implies.

 

sure i know development patterns are varied, but this kind of dma/msa/whatever silliness is why i keep keep putting my foot down on sticking with equalized acreage. put a pin on a map at public square, broad&high and fountain square, go as far out from that as you like within some standardized measurement and discuss your topic. i'm just sayin.  :laugh:

Cincinnati is just one side of Cleveland:

 

First of all it's not quite that extreme...second of all this is a map of Ohio only.  Cincinnati has a LARGE chunk of population in Nky (i.e. Newport, Covington, Florence, etc).  When you include those you would come up with just about the same size of population density for both Cleveland and Cincy.

Yeah, but the problem with that map is that it completely omits the southern side of Cincinnati, aka Northern KY, where the high density cities of Covington & Newport are a stone's throw from downtown Cincinnati.  If you're going to argue against mrnyc's point, you have to take into consideration the northernmost 3 NKY counties (all of which touch the river) at the very least.

I'm a little confused C-dawg, you went from DMAs and how they are superior, to population densities?

Here is the KY addition:

since C-Dawg wanted to see Portland:

 

and here's Kentucky

 

The Cincinnati area would be way more dense than that, but the count river plains, hills and valleys that can't be built upon.

Alright, Cdawg has done his duty of taking another thread off-topic.  Let's try to get back to the main discussion topic here please.

I think if the county commissioners of Butler and Warren County could come together in some some sort of financing agreement. An arena could be build right on the border of  both counties. Build a new exit at about a mile north of 63. If planned right, It would be booming with activity and development.

Then we'd be Detroit.

Here I thought this was another boring sports thread, and lo and behold some density maps of my beloved Kentucky! 

 

Thank You!

Chances are, when you see a thread with CDawg + Six pages, you're going to expect some dumbass maps.

^Man do I love when ColDayMan comes around in the evenings and graces us with his amazing posts.

And on THAT note!

There is a big article in the Sunday's enquirer about the NBA in Cincinnati.

^Then Cleveland is MUCH bigger when looking at the core 100 square miles, the core 200 square miles, and the core 400 square miles. Cleveland's high density core (over 5000 people per square mile) puts the rest of Ohio to shame. This map says it all. The purerst shade of red is the high density area. Cincinnati is just one side of Cleveland:

 

 

I love this map. You can see how scattered the Columbus high density area is, how small and split down the middle Dayton and Akron's high density areas are, and how consolidated Toledo's high density area is.

 

This map is about the best measurement of sprawl you can find. In a perfect city, the core would be all deep red with no gaps, surrounded by some medium red, with mostly green shades outside of that. You wouldn't have much orange or yellow. I'd love to see this map for Portland to see what kind of effect the greenbelt has.

 

Spot on CDawg, great work!

Well that article was so stale.

Cincy would have to be considered if the NBA decided to expand (big IF).  More likely, an existing team (like Memphis, New Orleans, or Sacramento) would be moved and the owner would have much more say in where he is going.  I know the Maloofs want to move the Kings, but I have always heard that Vegas is their preferred destination.  The league may not approve that move, though, due to the gambling.  Other possible destinations would be San Diego, a return of the NBA to Seattle, or (believe it or not) maybe even a place like Omaha.  The NBA seems to do OK in non-traditional pro sports towns, like Portland, OKC, Orlando, San Antonio, etc.   

In my opinion, the only chance Cincinnati has of getting an NBA team in the foreseeable future would be if Seattle gets another team (Hornets?) and then the Kings decide to move.  An ownership group with Oscar Robertson as its face, returning the Royals to Cincinnati would be a compelling tie to the NBA's past that could make such a deal happen, but even that is a longshot. 

 

I've never understood the NBA's fascination with Europe and Asia, mainly because I can't figure out how they could get the schedules to work.  Expanding into Canada and Mexico City would seem more logical, but may not have the same opportunities for growth. 

Best chance of this happening is if the three counties of Butler,Warren and Hamiltion county come to some sort of financing agreement to make a new arena where the three corners meet at Fields Ertle , Butler-Warren county road. That's one of the only ways i can see it happening. There is room to still develop in that area.

I agree about the Royals and tying it to that history and that this might have to be West Chester's team (though if there was a way to make the Coliseum disappear as part of a plan to bring them here that wouldn't be bad either). I just can't see an international team (like the NFL was talking London for a team) working - maybe Mexico City, but otherwise I think you'd need a whole division there from the start - sort of like the Dodgers and Giants moving west together in baseball.