3 hours ago, Dev said:

That's beside the point. The objective is to not get hit and I'm going to do what I can to maximize that chance. If I'm riding closer to the speed that the cars are going, there's a little bit less chance that'll happen.

 

Yes, having traffic going at the same speed is safest, but as @Lazarus noted there are reasons for cyclists not to be driving 30mph.  Even fast cars still get in accidents, and they're a lot more stable than a bike.  I'm certainly in favor of finding ways to lower car speeds to 20mph and increasing cycling speeds to 20mph in urban zones.  But only raising the cycling speed to 20mph isn't going to help grandma or my five-year-old bike to the grocery more safely.

6 hours ago, Lazarus said:

You really don't want to ride quickly while bike commuting since you need time to react to unexpected things in the street (glass, screws, nails, etc.).  Having to brake or swerve at a higher speed increases the likelihood of clipping the curb or hitting an oil slick.

  

3 hours ago, Foraker said:

Yes, having traffic going at the same speed is safest, but as @Lazarus noted there are reasons for cyclists not to be driving 30mph.  Even fast cars still get in accidents, and they're a lot more stable than a bike.  I'm certainly in favor of finding ways to lower car speeds to 20mph and increasing cycling speeds to 20mph in urban zones.  But only raising the cycling speed to 20mph isn't going to help grandma or my five-year-old bike to the grocery more safely.

This sounds like hyperbole to me that isn't addressing the point the I was making. To clarify my original point, I meant to say accelerating through an intersection *from a stop.* So having more powerful ebikes in the US is a trend that is being reinforced by the lack of high quality bike infrastructure. The longer distances given the land use over the last century is another factor.

On 4/7/2023 at 5:06 PM, Dev said:

To clarify my original point, I meant to say accelerating through an intersection *from a stop.* So having more powerful ebikes in the US is a trend that is being reinforced by the lack of high quality bike infrastructure. The longer distances given the land use over the last century is another factor.

I understand your point.  But class 1 and class 2 ebikes that are limited to 20mph accelerate just as quickly as class 3 ebikes, and you'll go farther at slower speeds. 

 

If you mean you need to go faster because people need to cover longer distances in less time, sadly you're riding on some pretty bike-unfriendly streets in 'merica.  We should work together on changing that. 

On 4/8/2023 at 6:08 PM, Foraker said:

I understand your point.  But class 1 and class 2 ebikes that are limited to 20mph accelerate just as quickly as class 3 ebikes, and you'll go farther at slower speeds. 

 

If you mean you need to go faster because people need to cover longer distances in less time, sadly you're riding on some pretty bike-unfriendly streets in 'merica.  We should work together on changing that. 

Class 2 ebikes have throttles, which I assume is pretty rare in countries with better infrastructure. Additionally, class 2 and 3s generally have more power and torque, so yeah they will accelerate faster than a typical class 1, particularly on an incline. These features are also why they are being banned from shared-use trails.

 

I would argue that almost every street in America is bike-unfriendly. Even the quietest residential street has too high of a speed limit, and no traffic calming features, so a typical person is going be driving close to 30 mph. I've learned pretty quickly which streets I can cut-through to avoid more dangerous arterials, and are in good condition, but having the extra juice of a class 3 gives me some extra sense of security that I can get out of the way faster and easier.

On 4/7/2023 at 5:06 PM, Dev said:

  

This sounds like hyperbole to me that isn't addressing the point the I was making. To clarify my original point, I meant to say accelerating through an intersection *from a stop.* So having more powerful ebikes in the US is a trend that is being reinforced by the lack of high quality bike infrastructure. The longer distances given the land use over the last century is another factor.

 

I have biked all over the place for a long time and I'm having a hard time picturing what you are talking about.  If you are talking about sitting at a red light with 8 cars cued behind you...if you cross the intersection first, they're all going to end up passing you on the next block.  Usually if I'm in that situation I stay still when the light turns green and then pedal through when things are clear.  

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

Usually if I'm in that situation I stay still when the light turns green and then pedal through when things are clear.

That is a really high standard considering how much engineers rely on traffic lights so not everyone is going to do that at every single light. Historically, that is why bike ridership has plummeted and has been turned into a niche activity. It's too much unnecessary waiting so people are just not going to bother. Ebikes give folks the option to not have to always resort to that.

 

For my part, I pullover at a light too, but not when I am commuting, because I have somewhere to be. My class 3 ebike gives me the assistance I need to get through the intersection with traffic, and the confidence to know that I can do so at a rate that will not be an inconvenience to a potentially hostile driver behind me.

I just can't picture what this situation is.  Why is a car behind you not passing?   It's logical to ride fairly close to the curb so that cars have room to pass. 

 

Sometimes there isn't room for them to pass because a row of cars is oncoming in the opposite lane.  When this happens, I know that the situation can't resolve itself in the next 100-200 feet, I pull over and let the cars behind me go through.  I might do this, at most, twice per hour.  It's not some sort of grave time penalty.  Plus, on a bike you can gain back a lot of time rolling through stop signs and red lights when it's safe to do so.  

13 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

  Plus, on a bike you can gain back a lot of time rolling through stop signs and red lights when it's safe to do so.  

 

I saw a maybe-I-can-roll-through-without-fully-stopping cyclist almost get creamed by a driver turning right on red.  Driver was probably looking left, and suffered from that all-too-common "broken turn signal" syndrome that so many drivers these days are experiencing.  Car was stopped, cyclist rolled up and stood on his pedals to see over the cars, front car suddenly turned right across the cyclist's path.  Cyclist stopped very suddenly and fell over.  Cursing up a storm, no doubt.

 

Be careful out there.

 

4 hours ago, Dev said:

That is a really high standard considering how much engineers rely on traffic lights so not everyone is going to do that at every single light. Historically, that is why bike ridership has plummeted and has been turned into a niche activity. It's too much unnecessary waiting so people are just not going to bother. Ebikes give folks the option to not have to always resort to that.

 

Are you saying that the use of traffic lights is what has made cycling unpopular?  I would agree that ebikes could make biking (particularly within a city) much more practical and useful -- getting up hills, more consistent speeds, lovely instant torque at stops (but I still think the US is going to go for overkill and keep increasing the speed and power far beyond what is necessary and safe).

 

 

20 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Are you saying that the use of traffic lights is what has made cycling unpopular?  I would agree that ebikes could make biking (particularly within a city) much more practical and useful -- getting up hills, more consistent speeds, lovely instant torque at stops (but I still think the US is going to go for overkill and keep increasing the speed and power far beyond what is necessary and safe).

Sorry, I meant the legal requirement to ride in mixed traffic like a car, of which having to stop at lights and signs reinforces. I'm essentially re-iterating a NJB's video: 
 

 

Ebikes can draw the "enthused and confident" crowd into riding more often. Since the infrastructure is still high stress, they will buy up the more powerful ebikes, that are not safe to use on a shared-use path. To be clear, I do agree that the speed and power is overkill, it's just that the customer base is going to react to the infrastructure that they are given. Once there are larger complete networks of protected and separated bike infrastructure, I would expect the interest in class 2 and 3 ebikes to slow down.

Is there any legal limit to the maximum car length in the USA? Or in specific States? I would expect something like any vehicle over XXX" requires a CDL to operate. 

I personally hate e-bikes, because one passes me easily every evening as I slowly pedal up Edgehill Road. 

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

Is there any legal limit to the maximum car length in the USA? Or in specific States? I would expect something like any vehicle over XXX" requires a CDL to operate. 

Requirement of a CDL is typically dependent on weight (which is befuddling to me).  

 

Here are Ohio's limits: 

 

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/working/publications/os-8

5 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

Requirement of a CDL is typically dependent on weight (which is befuddling to me).  

 

Here are Ohio's limits: 

 

https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/working/publications/os-8

Thanks! But this is effectively a no. The longest trucks are about 22' which is still less than half the legal limit. 

 

The average parking spot is 16-20' long. It would seem if your vehicle is longer than that it is no longer a layman's vehicle. I'd love to cap these vehicles to parking space length. I'm sick of them creating effective one way streets when they park. 

 

I don't see anything happening on the national level, or in red States, but if blue States apply some modest regulatory pressure it might make manufacturers decide to engage in some modest shrinking.

 

Maybe California puts a cap on new vehicles in 2026 that they have to be under 21.5' in length. Rather than lose the Californian market, automakers decide to shave off six inches. Repeat in 2030, 2035, etc. It's not a quick solution, but it's the most realistic one I see. 

Trucks are sized for Texas now since that state is by far the largest truck market. People in older, tighter states don't ask themselves if the truck fits their landscape or not. They just buy it anyway.

On 2/16/2022 at 3:51 PM, the pope said:

 

I still hate cars. I can't believe people think the future is a 9,000 pound personal vehicle. Just imagine the damage to roads, people, a 3,000 pound's battery impact to the environment....

 

 

This is causing trouble at car shows, since they can't exhibit electric trucks in the way they exhibited gasoline/diesel trucks.  At trade shows, people want to see the batteries, not the motors.  They've constructed metal ramps at a few shows that pitch the electric pickups at dramatic angles, but the trucks are so damn heavy because the batteries are so damn heavy that the ramps themselves need to be so damn heavy.  

 

The other problem with electric vehicles is that there is no way to rev them up at a PR event.  Instead, they need gimmicks, like Musk breaking the glass by "accident".  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I bought an e-bike last year and love it. I still get good exercise without killing myself.  I bike further now than I used to.  

I can't believe that you don't need a special license to drive half of these monstrosities. Lift your truck 400 feet off the ground as as long as it doesn't have air brakes no problem. Same goes for ppl driving those bus rv's - the fact you can propel a bus down the highway without any extra training or expectations is pretty insane. 

Not Just Bikes hits it out of the park again:

 

These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us:

 

 

1 hour ago, GCrites80s said:

Trucks are sized for Texas now since that state is by far the largest truck market. People in older, tighter states don't ask themselves if the truck fits their landscape or not. They just buy it anyway.

 

And then get angry that roads are too narrow, turns too tight, etc!

In my opinion, e-bikes are extremely beneficial when replacing trips that would have been done via car. But they are obviously slightly worse, environmentally, if they are just replacing trips that would have already been done by bike. They draw power from the grid, which in Ohio is 96% non-renewable sources, and they have batteries that are a challenge to recycle. 

7 minutes ago, Balkmusic said:

In my opinion, e-bikes are extremely beneficial when replacing trips that would have been done via car. But they are obviously slightly worse, environmentally, if they are just replacing trips that would have already been done by bike. They draw power from the grid, which in Ohio is 96% non-renewable sources, and they have batteries that are a challenge to recycle. 

 

I agree that the goal of ebikes should first and foremost be to replace car trips.  They're probably so similar to traditional bikes in terms of carbon emissions that it's not worth differentiating between the two for that reason.  At least one study found that ebiking is less carbon intensive than regular biking because you burn fewer calories, and thus require less food consumption (see here).  I'm not sure I'd be willing to go that far, but I would guess they're around the same order of magnitude.

8 minutes ago, acd said:

 

I agree that the goal of ebikes should first and foremost be to replace car trips.  They're probably so similar to traditional bikes 

 

They're far more dangerous because the higher speeds = motorycle-type accidents, except without motorcycle safety equipment.  

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

They're far more dangerous because the higher speeds = motorycle-type accidents, except without motorcycle safety equipment.  

Class 1 (must pedal) and class 2 (can ride throttle-only) ebikes are limited to 20mph.  A good road cyclist can hit 20mph.  I think these kinds of ebikes are actually good for getting older and less-abled people out of cars and onto bikes.

 

Class 3 ebikes can hit 28mph (and probably can be modded to go even faster) and can either require pedaling or just a throttle.   These are not permitted in Europe and probably should be classified with  mopeds.  https://bmv.ohio.gov/vr-firstissuance.aspx#collapseE

 

I agree that larger, heavier bikes, with fatter tires, that can travel faster (and particularly class 3 ebikes) are more dangerous -- and should be required to have brakes that can stop from those speeds.  There is actually a big lawsuit pending against one of the major ebike makers for a crash that killed a young girl in California when the brakes were insufficient. 

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a42690937/molly-steinsapir-lawsuit-rad-power-electric-bike/

5 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

They're far more dangerous because the higher speeds = motorycle-type accidents, except without motorcycle safety equipment.  

That may be true for bikes with throttles, but not class I's. I occasionally get passed by regular bikes on metroparks paths. 

Not sure if this is the correct forum but does anyone have info on the Ohio Strategic Transportation and Development Analysis Study ($10M) included in in the 2023-2024 transportation budget.  The bill creates a Strategic Transportation and Development Analysis to be used for a statewide study of the Ohio transportation system in collaboration with the Department of Development and the Governor's Office of Workforce Transformation.  The study will focus on potential corridors from Columbus to Toledo.   Seem like this may revisit the proposed I-73 Corridor.

On 4/13/2023 at 9:42 AM, Balkmusic said:

They draw power from the grid, which in Ohio is 96% non-renewable sources, and they have batteries that are a challenge to recycle. 

We have solar panels at our house.  We make more power than we use. 

 

Recycling is getting better.  Currently, the best recycling tech can recover about 85% of the lithium.  We absolutely need to mandate recycling for lithium batteries and/or have product takeback laws.  If we continue going forward with electric vehicles and not do enough to offer quality alternatives to driving,  there is going to be a lot of environmental havoc from lithium mining. 

On 4/13/2023 at 2:47 PM, Foraker said:

There is actually a big lawsuit pending against one of the major ebike makers for a crash that killed a young girl in California when the brakes were insufficient. 

https://www.bicycling.com/culture/a42690937/molly-steinsapir-lawsuit-rad-power-electric-bike/

I wondered how long it would take for a lawsuit to crop up.  Was in CA last week.  Throttle bikes are much more popular there than in NE ohio.  They are supposed to be prohibited on recreational trails, but lots of people were ignoring that and zooming by pedestrians.  There will be more accidents and deaths, unfortunately. 

 

^ San Diego is super interesting to watch right now. The remnant car culture is very much in the way of improving the city and region, but the planets for more thoughtful infrastructure are almost in alignment.    

On 4/22/2023 at 9:52 AM, surfohio said:

^ San Diego is super interesting to watch right now. The remnant car culture is very much in the way of improving the city and region, but the planets for more thoughtful infrastructure are almost in alignment.    

California recently changed the governing rules for San Diego's metro planning organization, allowing for votes weighted by population, and it's been interesting to see them shift resources accordingly.

Not so in Culver City where councilman reminds us why forced sterilization should be a thing.

 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 2:11 PM, X said:

 

And then get angry that roads are too narrow, turns too tight, etc!

 

When I first moved to Lakewood in 1996, I never had the number of close encounters with other vehicles driving in opposite directions on the city streets as I do now. I blame bigger vehicles. Even my Nissan Maxima is wider than other cars I've had in the past.

Rural 2-lanes are downright scary to drive on now. Nothing fits. Unfortunately I have to drive a pickup truck in these areas. Right now I have an older 1st Gen Colorado which is a midsized model but will get rid of it for a smaller Maverick when they become widely available -- not wait 8 months and pray you get one at all like they are now. Had they not stopped selling small trucks for 11 years I would certainly have one of those.

Because cars are more important than people. Or probably more accurately: people who are wrapped with cars are more important than people who aren't. So if you didn't put on your car this morning, you don't really matter.

 

 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Because cars are more important than people. Or probably more accurately: people who are wrapped with cars are more important than people who aren't. So if you didn't put on your car this morning, you don't really matter.

 

 

 

What intersection is this?  Is it one with a lot of pedestrian traffic?

3 hours ago, Gramarye said:

What intersection is this?  Is it one with a lot of pedestrian traffic?

No intersection or street is identified in the twitter link.

 

 

7 hours ago, KJP said:

 

woof just look at how our obsession with asphalt for our cars just ruins our landscape. 

 

On 4/6/2023 at 9:14 PM, Gramarye said:

 

At the very least, car dependency is.

 

Lack of transit infrastructure and capabilities is one obvious deficiency, but transit will not always going to work as a solution given current land use patterns (and even if we change those patterns, which I generally support, the existing autocentric buildout will largely remain).

 

One thing I've seen gaining a lot more attention, and I'll be interested in seeing where it goes in the coming years, is the growth of street-legal personal vehicles smaller (and cheaper) than cars.  From about a year ago, April 2022:

 

New Research Shows That E-Bikes Are Outpacing Electric Cars Sales in the U.S.

 

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a39838840/ebikes-are-outpacing-electric-car-sales-in-the-us/

 

E-bike sales have also surpassed non-e-bike sales in terms of popularity and growth (though not actual numbers quite yet), reports market research company NPD. With 240 percent growth in sales in the last year, e-bikes are outstripping even road bikes.

 

========

 

I seem to have lost the link but I saw something similar not long ago about mopeds and motor scooters (Vespas and the like).

 

If we end up restructuring the gas tax into a vehicle-weight-mile tax, the popularity of lightweight personal vehicle options will probably increase even further.

 

I've already started thinking about options like that for my oldest child's first vehicle, even though it'll be years before he's old enough to drive even a moped or motor scooter.  I crashed the first car my parents gave me, and that was a 1991 Ford Escort.  I'm not sure I want the first car I put him in control of to be a $50,000, 455+ hp EV that goes 0-60 in 4.1.

I’m in the UK right now, for the first time since Covid. I’ve been in 3 different cities over the last few days and have been astonished at the amount of e-bikes there are now. I’m heading to London this weekend and expect to see even more. 

Think Americans don't like walkable neighborhoods and being car-free?  Think again.  Americans who have moved to Irsina, Italy are pleasantly surprised at what car-free living in a walkable village is really like:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/inside-the-italian-village-being-repopulated-by-americans/ar-AA1ajouy

 

 “My mother-in-law wasn’t excited at first about the idea of a village without cars, but now she has more fun here than in the US,” she says. “She walks, takes the bus to nearby Matera. Irsina has taught her how to lead an active lifestyle in her 70s. The sleepy vibe pushes us to live a slower life.” (Beth Ancona)

.....

“I love how there are no cars in Irsina, I don’t have one. I just hire a driver from the airport and then it’s all on foot, long walks every day.” (Canadian Deborah Semeniuk)

I'm seeing more and more articles about the cost of cars.  This raises a question: Is automobile ownership regressing back to it's earliest years when cars were toys for the rich?

 

Repelled by high car prices, Americans are holding on to their vehicles longer than ever

ANN ARBOR, Mich. (AP) — With new and used cars still painfully expensive, Ryan Holdsworth says he plans to keep his 9-year-old Chevy Cruze for at least four more years. Limiting his car payments and his overall debt is a bigger priority for him than having a new vehicle....

 

https://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/business/2023/05/16/repelled-by-high-car-prices-americans-are-holding-on-to-their-vehicles-longer-than-ever/

51 minutes ago, gildone said:

I'm seeing more and more articles about the cost of cars.  This raises a question: Is automobile ownership regressing back to it's earliest years when cars were toys for the rich?

 

Repelled by high car prices, Americans are holding on to their vehicles longer than ever

ANN ARBOR, Mich. (AP) — With new and used cars still painfully expensive, Ryan Holdsworth says he plans to keep his 9-year-old Chevy Cruze for at least four more years. Limiting his car payments and his overall debt is a bigger priority for him than having a new vehicle....

 

https://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/business/2023/05/16/repelled-by-high-car-prices-americans-are-holding-on-to-their-vehicles-longer-than-ever/

 

Yes, that is the trend, particularly as the wealth gap continues to widen and we transition to more electric vehicles.

A third of all new car loans now have terms longer than six years, according to the credit reporting company Experian (from 2019)

 

My dad taught me to always pay cash for depreciating assets, especially cars.  

 

I am always surprised when I take an Uber and get picked up in a Mercedes or Tesla.  These guys are working to make their car payments, all the while increasing the depreciation by adding mileage.  

I drive a 24 year old car. Maintaining it is less expensive than new car payments and new car insurance. The key is to get a vehicle with known longevity. Next year I can get historic plates!

40 minutes ago, Jimmy Skinner said:

I am always surprised when I take an Uber and get picked up in a Mercedes or Tesla.  These guys are working to make their car payments, all the while increasing the depreciation by adding mileage.  

 

Yeah, when I was an Uber driver, back in 2014-15, the Uber forums were electric with guys (especially in Los Angeles) using their Uber Black gig as an excuse to buy a Cadillac Escalade. 

 

 

 

That's why the current mix of new cars is so narrow. The only people under 40 that can buy new cars are engineers, nurses and tradespeople.

Car makers for years have been trying to kill off their entry level, low-profit models - the COVID chip shortage of the last few years was the excuse needed industry-wide to finally do so. Most manufacturers now focus on well-equipped, high margin, high priced crossovers, SUVs, and trucks. The rise of EVs is also a good excuse to keep prices high to cover new technology, though to be fair a lot of mass-market EVs really don't have much margin (many reportedly lose money).

 

Another factor is that cars really are better and last longer than they ever have in the past. A few decades ago a 10-year-old car with 100,000 miles was just about on its way to the junkyard - now something like that will probably set you back $10k, and have several more years of life in it. A lot of people would rather buy a "nice" used car than something entry level and basic (and part of that is so they don't "look poor". Essentially, used cars are the new entry level.

 

My opinion - as usual auto manufacturers have short memories. First, when the economy eventually cools off, most won't have anything inexpensive to offer. More significantly, by offer nothing entry-level US manufacturers in particular are creating the perfect conditions for Chinese manufacturers to come into the US and take over the entry level, exactly as Japanese and Korean manufacturers did in the past. Japanese and Korean cars initially appealed based strictly on low-price, grew into offering great value-for-money, and built up enough brand loyalty and equity to not offer models at every price point. Why would you buy a used Ford Escape when the same money puts you in a brand-new, well equipped, with warranty Zeekr X or BYD Seagull?

 

At least Toyota and Hyundai (for instance) still offer some reasonably-priced models to build customer loyalty - if you have a good experience with your Corolla, you upgrade to a RAV4 when the kids arrive, and a Lexus when you make management.

 

 

Edited May 16, 20232 yr by mrCharlie

Here's a list:

 

https://www.motortrend.com/price/under-30000/