Posted the news here.....

 

 

If this is now an active project, should we move the public square thread out of completed projects? I ask because I'm sure that if we don't we will constantly have the discussion split between two threads. 

33 minutes ago, GISguy said:

I know twitter links are annoying but don't want to go through video upload, this was one of the more Parks and Rec things I've seen in a while lol

 

This is soo Parks and Rec.   It's certainly as hokey.   I expect to see Perd Hapley reporting.   

 

I don't mind it, this is the fastest Cleveland has ever moved after a Press Conference lol. All jokes aside, it is somewhat embarrassing how long it took for the jersey barriers to be removed especially after seeing them pick up the barriers and remove them in 60 seconds. 

Edited March 25, 20241 yr by MyPhoneDead

^to add on, how did the RTA busses possibly function without having to go through the middle for that 1-2 hour span?

21 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I don't mind it, this is the fastest Cleveland has ever moved after a Press Conference lol. All jokes aside, it is somewhat embarrassing how long it took for the jersey barriers to be removed especially after seeing them pick up the barriers and remove them in 60 seconds. 

 

Did they really put them back in just for the press conference?

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, sonisharri said:

 

Did they really put them back in just for the press conference?

 

 

 

 

It's the MO with these stupid things. It'd be worth FOIA'ing how many times they've removed these and put them back/time frame.

 

They take them out for larger/weekend events and put them back at the end of the weekend on the regular.

yup, They put them back just to remove them 4 days later.  Performative politics in its highest form

 

13 minutes ago, mack34 said:

yup, They put them back just to remove them 4 days later.  Performative politics in its highest form

 

 

The barriers should've never been there in the first place.  

Its all just smoke and mirrors until they finally remove the buses through the middle of the square.

Edited March 26, 20241 yr by ogibbigo

And they wonder why we're cynical.

4 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

It's the MO with these stupid things. It'd be worth FOIA'ing how many times they've removed these and put them back/time frame.

 

They take them out for larger/weekend events and put them back at the end of the weekend on the regular.

Would love to know how much they spent in personnel and equipment costs moving these over the years…

Not sure if any of this is new info but I was at a Block Club meeting last night and the majority of the meeting was derailed due to concerns related to lack of parking with the Lorain Midway project. To mitigate the parking concerns it was mentioned that there is an RFP going out soon for the McCafferty site on Lorain Ave and it will most likely have some form of public parking garage element to it. I've been waiting for this site to be developed but hoping its more than just a giant parking garage. Best case would be a public parking garage with apartments/condos on top and some retail.

13 minutes ago, TDi said:

Not sure if any of this is new info but I was at a Block Club meeting last night and the majority of the meeting was derailed due to concerns related to lack of parking with the Lorain Midway project. To mitigate the parking concerns it was mentioned that there is an RFP going out soon for the McCafferty site on Lorain Ave and it will most likely have some form of public parking garage element to it. I've been waiting for this site to be developed but hoping its more than just a giant parking garage. Best case would be a public parking garage with apartments/condos on top and some retail.

do you know the address or street intersection of this site?

I believe they are referring to the McCafferty Health Center on the corner of Lorain and 41st 

Yes McCafferty Health Center near 41st

2 hours ago, TDi said:

Not sure if any of this is new info but I was at a Block Club meeting last night and the majority of the meeting was derailed due to concerns related to lack of parking with the Lorain Midway project. To mitigate the parking concerns it was mentioned that there is an RFP going out soon for the McCafferty site on Lorain Ave and it will most likely have some form of public parking garage element to it. I've been waiting for this site to be developed but hoping its more than just a giant parking garage. Best case would be a public parking garage with apartments/condos on top and some retail.

Which block club?

 

I find the parking garage idea completely laughable. I have never once had a problem finding street parking practically directly in front of wherever I’m trying to go in the current set up. There is not some monstrous demand for parking here.

Going to be hard to justify the city spending $3-5mm on a public parking garage in one of the richest areas of town...

 

Might be able to get a developer to build some at McCafferty if you gave the land away and allowed a huge amount of density.  

 

Should start with charging for street parking nights and weekends, might be surprising how many spots open up.  

1 hour ago, RMB said:

 

 

Should start with charging for street parking nights and weekends, might be surprising how many spots open up.  

Exactly or do what cities with real parking issues do and implement parking permits but we’re certainly not facing those issues 

Edited April 11, 20241 yr by BoomerangCleRes

32 minutes ago, X said:

 

Some will, but the amount of people who will walk more than a couple blocks to get anywhere is marginal.

Ya the reason people are complaining about parking on Lorain currently is because not enough people will park more than 500 ft from where they want to go. Lorain has a ton of parking available all the time, but if they're not within 6 spots of Heart of Gold, apparently they just won't go there. 

 

A parking garage could help that, but I doubt there would be an increase in business to anywhere more than a quarter mile from it.

 

If this Lorain bikeway ever gets built, we need to bring back an improved version of the UH bikes. Similar to NYC or what Columbus has going now. That might encourage people who parked to ride up and down Lorain. 

I don't want to veer too far off-topic, but are most people in CLE willing to walk or ride bikes in inclement weather? Are out-of-town visitors not welcome to shop here? I live outside of Columbus and I love Cleveland, but lack of reasonable parking has prevented my wife and I from shopping and dining in Tremont and O.C. on multiple occasions. And even though I grew up in Conneaut, I no longer enjoy long walks on cold days in January. It just seems like a city that has lost so much population over decades would want to welcome as many visitors as possible.

23 minutes ago, TMart said:

I don't want to veer too far off-topic, but are most people in CLE willing to walk or ride bikes in inclement weather? Are out-of-town visitors not welcome to shop here? I live outside of Columbus and I love Cleveland, but lack of reasonable parking has prevented my wife and I from shopping and dining in Tremont and O.C. on multiple occasions. And even though I grew up in Conneaut, I no longer enjoy long walks on cold days in January. It just seems like a city that has lost so much population over decades would want to welcome as many visitors as possible.

 

As much as cars are bad, the reality is, people like them. In all the hot neighborhoods there should be city parking underground like under a park big, underground parking. charge a nominal fee. But it will support the growth in the neighborhood. We should do this all over the city especially to support growth and development.

58 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

Ya the reason people are complaining about parking on Lorain currently is because not enough people will park more than 500 ft from where they want to go. Lorain has a ton of parking available all the time, but if they're not within 6 spots of Heart of Gold, apparently they just won't go there. 

 

A parking garage could help that, but I doubt there would be an increase in business to anywhere more than a quarter mile from it.

 

If this Lorain bikeway ever gets built, we need to bring back an improved version of the UH bikes. Similar to NYC or what Columbus has going now. That might encourage people who parked to ride up and down Lorain. 

People are willing to walk relatively far when they park in the garages at Crocker Park...

Hate for parking garages seems misplaced, or at least not strategic. The business model of most parking garages (increasing to the daily max quickly) incentives people to park once and then leave their care there for the day. That isn't really bad or incompatible with urban development, if perhaps imperfect. Plus, they consolidate parking, reducing the total land used for parking. Additionally, most people using parking garages aren't local, they are coming from somewhere else to inject money into the local economy. Parking garages are perhaps not optimal, but they seem to me to be at worst an enemy of my enemy situation (with surface lots being the greater enemy).

46 minutes ago, Gabriel said:

 

As much as cars are bad, the reality is, people like them. In all the hot neighborhoods there should be city parking underground like under a park big, underground parking. charge a nominal fee. But it will support the growth in the neighborhood. We should do this all over the city especially to support growth and development.

I get what you're saying, and I'm not against cars, but then the city is spending hundreds of millions on parking structures with a lot of money in future maintenance, and even more if they go underground as you suggest. It was $31 million for Cincy's new 515 space garage in OTR, or $60k per space. Say we build 3 garages in different neighborhoods to add 1000 total spaces for around $60 million. And no way would the neighborhood allow apartments on top of a Lorain parking garage.

 

 

For example, city could instead use that same amount of money for something like building 400 miles of bollard protected bike lanes. We could build a streetcar on Lorain that goes back and forth from the W25 and W65 stations down Lorain. 2 cars, mostly single tracked, and 10 minute frequency for the 1.5 mile stretch. Projects like these would improve these neighborhoods much more than a parking garage. 

 

 

Nothing against anyone in the suburbs or anything, I've lived in them myself and have been someone who drives and parks around town, but for decades we've been spending city money to make Cleveland easier for the suburban commuter. All at the expense of making the city a worse place for its actual residents. I get that there are a lot of potential customers living in the suburbs, but at some point you have to focus on attracting more people to live in the city instead. That's where the real customer base is. 

1 hour ago, TMart said:

I don't want to veer too far off-topic, but are most people in CLE willing to walk or ride bikes in inclement weather? Are out-of-town visitors not welcome to shop here? I live outside of Columbus and I love Cleveland, but lack of reasonable parking has prevented my wife and I from shopping and dining in Tremont and O.C. on multiple occasions. And even though I grew up in Conneaut, I no longer enjoy long walks on cold days in January. It just seems like a city that has lost so much population over decades would want to welcome as many visitors as possible.

What is reasonable parking? I’ve never had to walk more than three blocks in Ohio City or Tremont. Most times I can park directly in front of the place I plan to shop at.
 

It’s not really fair to say that we think out of towners aren’t welcome because we want bike lanes.

1 hour ago, Ethan said:

Hate for parking garages seems misplaced, or at least not strategic. The business model of most parking garages (increasing to the daily max quickly) incentives people to park once and then leave their care there for the day. That isn't really bad or incompatible with urban development, if perhaps imperfect. Plus, they consolidate parking, reducing the total land used for parking. Additionally, most people using parking garages aren't local, they are coming from somewhere else to inject money into the local economy. Parking garages are perhaps not optimal, but they seem to me to be at worst an enemy of my enemy situation (with surface lots being the greater enemy).

 

Nailed it.

20 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I get what you're saying, and I'm not against cars, but then the city is spending hundreds of millions on parking structures with a lot of money in future maintenance, and even more if they go underground as you suggest. It was $31 million for Cincy's new 515 space garage in OTR, or $60k per space. Say we build 3 garages in different neighborhoods to add 1000 total spaces for around $60 million. And no way would the neighborhood allow apartments on top of a Lorain parking garage.

 

 

For example, city could instead use that same amount of money for something like building 400 miles of bollard protected bike lanes. We could build a streetcar on Lorain that goes back and forth from the W25 and W65 stations down Lorain. 2 cars, mostly single tracked, and 10 minute frequency for the 1.5 mile stretch. Projects like these would improve these neighborhoods much more than a parking garage. 

 

 

Nothing against anyone in the suburbs or anything, I've lived in them myself and have been someone who drives and parks around town, but for decades we've been spending city money to make Cleveland easier for the suburban commuter. All at the expense of making the city a worse place for its actual residents. I get that there are a lot of potential customers living in the suburbs, but at some point you have to focus on attracting more people to live in the city instead. That's where the real customer base is. 

Great post! Weighing costs and benefits is always important! The one caveat I'd make is that there's a difference between having parking options, and subsidizing those parking options. I would prefer privately owned and operated parking garages, but if the city decides to build and operate them, then they should run them like a private business would, with aim to make a profit. At the very least parking aught to be priced to pay back the cost of construction (with interest) and maintenance (and making money on it would be even better). If the city is making money (or at least not losing it) the upfront cost is less of an issue, but obviously there's still opportunity cost, the city only has so much capital to use at any one time. I'd definitely prefer privately owned and operated though, I think that would be better for everyone for all the reasons you listed. 

4 hours ago, Clefan98 said:

The potential garage would be located at W41th, not W44th.
 

I could see a future where visitors park there, hit up shops up and down Lorain, then use the Midway to eventually end up at Irish Bend. 

 

@Clefan98 Where is there room for constructing a parking garage at Lorain and 41st? How much demo would be required?

20 minutes ago, KJP said:

Where is there room for constructing a parking garage at Lorain and 41st? How much demo would be required?

There's room for a garage at almost every current rapid station (at least on the red line), and a new rapid station at 41st Street and N Marginal would only be a few blocks south of Lorain.  There would be room for a garage there.  Or better yet, if you're willing to demo about two dozen houses, a TOD on Bailey stretching from 44th to 41st, could include a new rapid station, garage, and apartments.

58 minutes ago, Henke said:

What is reasonable parking? I’ve never had to walk more than three blocks in Ohio City or Tremont. Most times I can park directly in front of the place I plan to shop at.
 

It’s not really fair to say that we think out of towners aren’t welcome because we want bike lanes.

By reasonable, I am referring to distance and cost. 

 

I didn't say you think out of towners aren't welcome. I was asking. I am trying to offer a different perspective as a visitor. It seems to be popular for many here to demonize the automobile, and I get that. There has to be a way to satisfy both residents and visitors. 

4 hours ago, X said:

 

Some will, but the amount of people who will walk more than a couple blocks to get anywhere is marginal.

 

In Ohio City, there's better odds of marginal turning into substantial over the next ten years than not.

 

Even if the number going from W41 --> Irish Bend is small, it doesn't negate the need for multiple garages around the near west side in the not so distant future.

16 minutes ago, TMart said:

By reasonable, I am referring to distance and cost. 

 

I didn't say you think out of towners aren't welcome. I was asking. I am trying to offer a different perspective as a visitor. It seems to be popular for many here to demonize the automobile, and I get that. There has to be a way to satisfy both residents and visitors. 

I should clarify that although I live a couple miles away, if I’m with company or it’s rainy or snowy I’m driving to Ohio City. And I always take a car into Tremont, it’s not a very easy neighborhood to walk to. So you and I are both entering the neighborhood in the same way. 
 

But I don’t think we have a shared experience in this regard. I’ve never paid for parking in either neighborhood. I’m actually not sure where in Tremont you can pay for parking, it’s primarily street parking or lots attached to businesses. 
 

Maybe the gap is in better signage for where parking is located?

 

The street parking is pretty abundant in Ohio City, especially if you park south of Lorain on 26th and 28th. I’ve never seen the West Side Market lot full and I think they give the first 2 hours free. 
 

I hope your next visit brings better parking fortune!

1 minute ago, Henke said:

I don’t think we have a shared experience in this regard. I’ve never paid for parking in either neighborhood. I’m actually not sure where in Tremont you can pay for parking, it’s primarily street parking or lots attached to businesses. 
 

Maybe the gap is in better signage for where parking is located?

 

The street parking is pretty abundant in Ohio City, especially if you park south of Lorain on 26th and 28th. I’ve never seen the West Side Market lot full and I think they give the first 2 hours free. 
 

I hope your next visit brings better parking fortune!

I do think signage could be better, OTR does this really well. People that live in suburbs always ask when we meet up where they can park in tremont and OhC so I think this is a good point 

55 minutes ago, Dino said:

There's room for a garage at almost every current rapid station (at least on the red line), and a new rapid station at 41st Street and N Marginal would only be a few blocks south of Lorain.  There would be room for a garage there.  Or better yet, if you're willing to demo about two dozen houses, a TOD on Bailey stretching from 44th to 41st, could include a new rapid station, garage, and apartments.

 

Which is why the old Cleveland Transit System acquired land there for a high-rise TOD planned during the Stokes Administration. GCRTA inherited that property in 1975 but has lain fallow ever since. 

 

I think a station at Fulton makes more sense, combined with vertical access to the Red Line Greenway, and tied in with future development in the vicinity. Maybe someday...

 

https://neo-trans.blog/2020/02/24/fulton-road-deadzone-to-be-enlivened-by-trails-rails-housing/

 

But I was wondering more so about Lorain & 41st. 

9 minutes ago, Henke said:

I should clarify that although I live a couple miles away, if I’m with company or it’s rainy or snowy I’m driving to Ohio City. And I always take a car into Tremont, it’s not a very easy neighborhood to walk to. So you and I are both entering the neighborhood in the same way. 
 

But I don’t think we have a shared experience in this regard. I’ve never paid for parking in either neighborhood. I’m actually not sure where in Tremont you can pay for parking, it’s primarily street parking or lots attached to businesses. 
 

Maybe the gap is in better signage for where parking is located?

 

The street parking is pretty abundant in Ohio City, especially if you park south of Lorain on 26th and 28th. I’ve never seen the West Side Market lot full and I think they give the first 2 hours free. 
 

I hope your next visit brings better parking fortune!

We have family in Ashtabula, so my wife and I frequently travel between there and our Columbus area home. I always want to stop in Cleveland. We usually choose a restaurant for dinner there. We had decided on one in Tremont, but a drove for blocks unable to find any parking. We ended up going all the way to Parma to dine.

 

We have been able to park at the West Side Market lot and we sometimes take the rapid downtown from there. Other times, we have parked at the Green Road or Puritas rapid stations and take the train into town. 

I think it's reasonable to say that in the vast majority of America cars are a necessary evil. Parking garages too when density reaches a certain point. That's unlikely to change. It's our culture. Personally, l'm a train guy, not much of a car and certainly not a bus guy. But l am also a realist.   

 

If our popular urban neighborhoods continue to grow in both population and attractions we are going to have no choice but to build parking garages. Of course, we're not there yet but that density seems to be coming. 

 

So while l agree with those who would rather design those neighborhoods around transit, biking and walking that's a minority position in most of America. IF we continue to get that growth without a place to park our cars we're going have a problem. If people can't park they won't come. If they don't come we will limit the growth in density. So unless we become New York or Boston overnight or we want urban density we're still going to need some garages. 

 

Now let's demand we get some built with residential over them. Some with shops and businesses facing the street. And the rest at least with facades that blend in.

31 minutes ago, cadmen said:

I think it's reasonable to say that in the vast majority of America cars are a necessary evil. Parking garages too when density reaches a certain point. That's unlikely to change. It's our culture. Personally, l'm a train guy, not much of a car and certainly not a bus guy. But l am also a realist.   

 

If our popular urban neighborhoods continue to grow in both population and attractions we are going to have no choice but to build parking garages. Of course, we're not there yet but that density seems to be coming. 

 

So while l agree with those who would rather design those neighborhoods around transit, biking and walking that's a minority position in most of America. IF we continue to get that growth without a place to park our cars we're going have a problem. If people can't park they won't come. If they don't come we will limit the growth in density. So unless we become New York or Boston overnight or we want urban density we're still going to need some garages. 

 

Now let's demand we get some built with residential over them. Some with shops and businesses facing the street. And the rest at least with facades that blend in.

We can have both. We act like the largest cities in Europe don't have parking garages  in their neighborhoods. They do.

 

Do I think we are oversaturated with garages in our downtown area? Ya. We should have maybe an eight of the amount of vehicular parking that we do. Can we have a parking garage or two per city neighborhood? Ya, I think that's fine. Especially if done tastefully as part of a larger development.  

 

Should we also have great transit within the city limits? Ya. But we still need garages for those who live out of town or deep in the boonies so they are able to patronize urban areas. 

5 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

We can have both. We act like the largest cities in Europe don't have parking garages  in their neighborhoods. They do.

With the only difference being they tend to be underground, not built by the lowest bidder using watered-down concrete., and they don't need to be able to fit Escalades and F 350's in them.  

 

Agree with the rest of your sentiments though!  

The biggest problem I see with too many parking garages isn't necessarily the garages themselves, especially if they're designed well, but the traffic they cause by encouraging more people to drive rather than consider other options.  And the main problem with traffic isn't the traffic itself, but people's intolerance for sitting in a 5 minute backup, which leads us to try and build 7 lane roads.  And that's what I see as the real problem.  It's why you end up with Crocker Park surrounded by insanely busy ultra-wide roads.  Instead of a robust street grid which can spread the traffic around and drivers who accept that at busy times there will be a lot of cars packed onto that street grid, we think that building large arterial highways is the answer.  All that does is lead to wider, busier roads that decrease overall density, furthering the problem by forcing people to have to drive further, leading to increased drive times over shorter, yet slower moving, commutes.

Edited April 13, 20241 yr by jam40jeff

Okay, I moved quite a few off-topic posts in the Ohio City projects thread here to the Streetscape thread where it seemed to make sense.

The Warehouse district where I live is complete trash. Empty light poles, holes in the ground and a hazard cone that has been on a broken light pole since 2020. I have three properties in the ware house district, pay $2000 in extra taxes for the place to look like garbage.

3 hours ago, stpats44113 said:

The Warehouse district where I live is complete trash. Empty light poles, holes in the ground and a hazard cone that has been on a broken light pole since 2020. I have three properties in the ware house district, pay $2000 in extra taxes for the place to look like garbage.

Of all the things that hold this region back - the culture that this acceptable is a major one. 

Cleveland and infrastructure, in the spotlight again....   Sigh!  Always a cause celebre, and deservedly so.

Has the downtown city councilman Kerry McCormick weighed in on this at any public meetings? 

 

Public Works are an executive function of Cleveland government, yet contacting city council offices often helps put an extra press on the Mayor's team to get some small ugly/hazard things fixes sort'a quickly.  You can always reach out to the Public Works Office too.  Of course there a number of different directions you can take to get started.  Also, if you have the sympathetic (not politically protective of candidates or beholden to City Hall for operating money) ear of local community groups, action can come even faster.  

- This also looks like a good TV news story, given the important tourism function of the Warehouse District.

 

• Frank Williams Director of Public Works
• James DeRosa Director of Mayor's Office of Capital Projects
• Angela D. Shute-Woodson Director of Community Relations & Senior Advisor, Community and Government Affairs
• Alyssa Hernandez Director of Community Development

https://www.clevelandohio.gov/city-hall/departments/public-works

 

sigh... again.  Good luck!

Edited April 14, 20241 yr by ExPatClevGuy

4 hours ago, stpats44113 said:

The Warehouse district where I live is complete trash. Empty light poles, holes in the ground and a hazard cone that has been on a broken light pole since 2020. I have three properties in the ware house district, pay $2000 in extra taxes for the place to look like garbage.

It is amazing how many light poles have broken in the last few years and none are replaced…I’m not sure what is going on, but it is strange and worrisome.

Yes, get a TV I-team on it.  That may shake up city government to act.

Edited April 14, 20241 yr by urb-a-saurus

48 minutes ago, ExPatClevGuy said:

Cleveland and infrastructure, in the spotlight again....   Sigh!  Always a cause celebre, and deservedly so.

Has the downtown city councilman Kerry McCormick weighed in on this at any public meetings? 

 

Public Works are an executive function of Cleveland government, yet contacting city council offices often helps put an extra press on the Mayor's team to get some small ugly/hazard things fixes sort'a quickly.  You can always reach out to the Public Works Office too.  Of course there a number of different directions you can take to get started.  Also, if you have the sympathetic (not politically protective of candidates or beholden to City Hall for operating money) ear of local community groups, action can come even faster.  

- This also looks like a good TV news story, given the important tourism function of the Warehouse District.

 

• Frank Williams Director of Public Works
• James DeRosa Director of Mayor's Office of Capital Projects
• Angela D. Shute-Woodson Director of Community Relations & Senior Advisor, Community and Government Affairs
• Alyssa Hernandez Director of Community Development

https://www.clevelandohio.gov/city-hall/departments/public-works

 

sigh... again.  Good luck!

 

I have also been told that the Bibb administration is about to do a full rollout of the former 311 system that was a joke under Jackson. 

In the meantime, there is an active email address to address requests for city maintenance:  

 

[email protected]

Received a survey from my building management about closing down Huron Road from Prospect to Euclid. Seemed to suggest that it would close down the east end of the street off Euclid but still allow vehicle access from Prospect. 

 

Edited April 17, 20241 yr by Rustbelter
error in message

9 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

Received a survey from my building management about closing down Huron Road from Prospect to Euclid. Seemed to suggest that it would close down the east end of the street off Euclid but still allow vehicle access from Prospect. 

 

I think they would have to allow vehicle access as there are loading docks and parking entrances off there.