1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

In other words, watered-down concrete poured by the lowest bidder, like 99% of all major public projects in NE Ohio?   We're looking at you Allega!   

Looks Allega and was not near this crime scene. We hope the city has plans underway to replace as even early on they expected a 15 year lifespan:

 

Randell Scott, Cleveland streets commissioner, acknowledged that a concrete road should last "10 to 15 years." He said the city is responsible for the repairs and they will be done.
 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/euclid_avenue_concrete_is_crum.html

 

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2009/11/rta_says_euclid_avenue_concret.html

 

 

Edited March 16Mar 16 by Willo

 

The billboard has been installed 

Boooo. It's not enough we're bombarded with ads while watching TV or online websites or listening to music. Can't even get some peace while driving to work without ads flashing in your face. This is going to be even more obnoxious when it's dark out with these stupid electronic billboards.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Henke said:

 

The billboard has been installed 

Time to lower the roadway!  🤣

1 minute ago, Foraker said:

Time to lower the roadway!  🤣

Get your paintball guns ready!  

36 minutes ago, Henke said:

 

The billboard has been installed 

 

effing insane. At least the ones coming into the city on 90 seem offset from the road some. I could see this being a big problem during snowstorms.

1 hour ago, GISguy said:

 

effing insane. At least the ones coming into the city on 90 seem offset from the road some. I could see this being a big problem during snowstorms.

Technically meets criteria for “skyline changing” but not the type we have hoped for.

Saw this on LinkedIn this morning and was amused. 

 

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/derek-schafer-8472ab70_irishtownbend-activity-7311149461093732352-nQX0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAABLLMyoBJXMo_Yt4OmNz9ywxfR-3VpN998Y

Edited March 28Mar 28 by Luke_S

^ Cue up @MayDay for the www.urbanohio.com logo overlay... 

 

I wonder what a day of actually putting the UO logo on a digital billboard would cost...  

Edited March 29Mar 29 by buckeye1

How many more billboards does the city need to put up to complete the compromise of removing the one at Irishtown Bend?

On 3/28/2025 at 7:55 AM, Luke_S said:

Saw this on LinkedIn this morning and was amused. 

 

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/derek-schafer-8472ab70_irishtownbend-activity-7311149461093732352-nQX0?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAABLLMyoBJXMo_Yt4OmNz9ywxfR-3VpN998Y

Hope the Aloft hotel has room darkening curtains facing the billboard.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/4627d2ff6dc743338e70c5202a792a01?fbclid=PAY2xjawJdCQFleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABpgUt2lzH2Kdb-snPFb0smfa7KpjXcd9NdQ-fEVXg-yAqYVPoww0xRB7vDw_aem_ZUS8vKDJyUv60siUy34L0g

 

Updated Cleveland Moves page with new information on pedestrian and bike infrastructure improvement plans for the next 3 years. 

It's good they agree with what we've been saying for years that sharrows aren't bike infrastructure. 

7 hours ago, Mendo said:

It's good they agree with what we've been saying for years that sharrows aren't bike infrastructure. 

 

This needs to be a crime...

Glad to hear this is confirmed—I live nearby and this stretch is sorely in need of a refresh.

 

4 hours ago, Geowizical said:

also, for those curious, per ODOT records, they will be resurfacing Stokes from Chester to MLK in 2027 (PID 122344) and adding a striped bike lane, which I would imagine will reduce it from an unnecessary four lane to a three lane + bike

 

In the January 2025 Complete & Green Streets newsletter, the idea of converting to two-way was mentioned—any info about this?

 

IMO, this would make a lot of sense given that Stokes is supposed to become the main street of the Circle Square retail district. Also, 370+ crashes in 5 years is absolutely ridiculous, but sadly believable: as a 3-4 lane one-way, it gets treated as a freeway and lights are often ignored. Crossing is extremely dangerous as 2 lanes will stop for a light but another car will overtake them in the third lane.

 

Given its width, I'd imagine that a two-way street is perfectly feasible with bike lanes. It would make a lot of sense to add a median on the curved section between Baldwin & MLK—which the Lake to Lakes bike trail already parallels.

 

Quote

Stokes Blvd (Chester Ave to MLK Drive) was the featured project at the quarterly meeting of the Transportation Infrastructure Advisory Committee (a.k.a. Complete & Green Streets Committee).

 

Stokes is a fast, 4-lane, one-way street which has experienced 370+ crashes over the past 5 years.

 

The north end of the district includes the $417M Circle Square development project as well as John Hay HS and a new MLK Branch Library. The southern end provides a connection to the Lake-To-Lakes Bike Trail. Over 1,000 units of new housing are planned or are being built along Stokes over the next several years.

 

The committee discussed road dieting the street; adding bike facilities; improving pedestrian crossings and; adding upwards of 170+ trees to existing greenspace. There was also discussion about the benefits of switching to a two-way street.

 

I had typed this up in the Ohio City thread regarding the dedicated bus lanes on W25 yesterday, but before I could post it the thread was locked. This topic really should be in this thread though.....

On the traffic calming and pedestrian safety brought by parked cars angle McNulty took, bollards and other methods of traffic calming exist all over the world. And all of them look significantly more appealing than a wall of subsidized car storage in one of your cities premier destinations.

People on here, and everywhere really, complain RTA is bad and doesn't care. Then a solution comes up to dramatically improve service in a heavily congested TOD corridor. But we can't even ask 25 cars to park on the back side of a building with ample parking so that thousands of people riding 24-30 busses an hour each day can have a better ride with less delays. You want to get more people in this booming neighborhood and the BVQ neighborhood to choose the bus? Allowing it to easily pass the traffic on W25 and be faster than driving is a great start.

For the people saying dedicated bus lanes are stupid here because we're not Dublin or whatever city people show ideas to improve Cleveland from....

America used to have the best cities and best public transit in the world. Cleveland used to be one of the best cities with some of the best public transit in the world. Instead of saying "we're not Dublin" or whatever other city someone wants to use an example for yet another idea Cleveland isn't good enough for, we used to say "how can we take what *insert city* is doing, right size it for us, and make it even better."

We will never get close to what we once had without dramatic improvements to public transit and housing density. And not just shiny new rail lines or projects designed to drive development $$$$ more than they're designed to be transit. Actual good and frequent transit that gets existing and future residents where they need and want to go. Without quality public transit that residents choose to use, an area can only get so densely populated. Otherwise, everyone still needs to use a car for most things and needs space for the storage of that car that could instead be housing.

Ohio City COULD be the best neighborhood in the state, and one of the best in the country, if we actually try to keep building on the momentum it has seen for the last 30 years. But once again, people can't imagine inconveniencing a few cars or trying something that works great in thousands of other cities around the world that would be a huge long term benefit for residents and neighborhood as a whole.

23 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I had typed this up in the Ohio City thread regarding the dedicated bus lanes on W25 yesterday, but before I could post it the thread was locked. This topic really should be in this thread though.....

On the traffic calming and pedestrian safety brought by parked cars angle McNulty took, bollards and other methods of traffic calming exist all over the world. And all of them look significantly more appealing than a wall of subsidized car storage in one of your cities premier destinations.

People on here, and everywhere really, complain RTA is bad and doesn't care. Then a solution comes up to dramatically improve service in a heavily congested TOD corridor. But we can't even ask 25 cars to park on the back side of a building with ample parking so that thousands of people riding 24-30 busses an hour each day can have a better ride with less delays. You want to get more people in this booming neighborhood and the BVQ neighborhood to choose the bus? Allowing it to easily pass the traffic on W25 and be faster than driving is a great start.

For the people saying dedicated bus lanes are stupid here because we're not Dublin or whatever city people show ideas to improve Cleveland from....

America used to have the best cities and best public transit in the world. Cleveland used to be one of the best cities with some of the best public transit in the world. Instead of saying "we're not Dublin" or whatever other city someone wants to use an example for yet another idea Cleveland isn't good enough for, we used to say "how can we take what *insert city* is doing, right size it for us, and make it even better."

We will never get close to what we once had without dramatic improvements to public transit and housing density. And not just shiny new rail lines or projects designed to drive development $$$$ more than they're designed to be transit. Actual good and frequent transit that gets existing and future residents where they need and want to go. Without quality public transit that residents choose to use, an area can only get so densely populated. Otherwise, everyone still needs to use a car for most things and needs space for the storage of that car that could instead be housing.

Ohio City COULD be the best neighborhood in the state, and one of the best in the country, if we actually try to keep building on the momentum it has seen for the last 30 years. But once again, people can't imagine inconveniencing a few cars or trying something that works great in thousands of other cities around the world that would be a huge long term benefit for residents and neighborhood as a whole.

Well said. You've got KANSAS CITY (a much less dense city) installing a 7 mile long street cart system, yet we have people on a forum about development denying TOD because "we're not europe". They've either never left Ohio or are incapable of imagining something that is foreign to them but has been so successful in other places. When I leave Cleveland to travel, I'm ALWAYS using public transit– I want the same amenities here in my neighborhood.

Edited April 29Apr 29 by downtownjoe

6 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I had typed this up in the Ohio City thread regarding the dedicated bus lanes on W25 yesterday, but before I could post it the thread was locked. This topic really should be in this thread though.....

On the traffic calming and pedestrian safety brought by parked cars angle McNulty took, bollards and other methods of traffic calming exist all over the world. And all of them look significantly more appealing than a wall of subsidized car storage in one of your cities premier destinations.

People on here, and everywhere really, complain RTA is bad and doesn't care. Then a solution comes up to dramatically improve service in a heavily congested TOD corridor. But we can't even ask 25 cars to park on the back side of a building with ample parking so that thousands of people riding 24-30 busses an hour each day can have a better ride with less delays. You want to get more people in this booming neighborhood and the BVQ neighborhood to choose the bus? Allowing it to easily pass the traffic on W25 and be faster than driving is a great start.

For the people saying dedicated bus lanes are stupid here because we're not Dublin or whatever city people show ideas to improve Cleveland from....

America used to have the best cities and best public transit in the world. Cleveland used to be one of the best cities with some of the best public transit in the world. Instead of saying "we're not Dublin" or whatever other city someone wants to use an example for yet another idea Cleveland isn't good enough for, we used to say "how can we take what *insert city* is doing, right size it for us, and make it even better."

We will never get close to what we once had without dramatic improvements to public transit and housing density. And not just shiny new rail lines or projects designed to drive development $$$$ more than they're designed to be transit. Actual good and frequent transit that gets existing and future residents where they need and want to go. Without quality public transit that residents choose to use, an area can only get so densely populated. Otherwise, everyone still needs to use a car for most things and needs space for the storage of that car that could instead be housing.

Ohio City COULD be the best neighborhood in the state, and one of the best in the country, if we actually try to keep building on the momentum it has seen for the last 30 years. But once again, people can't imagine inconveniencing a few cars or trying something that works great in thousands of other cities around the world that would be a huge long term benefit for residents and neighborhood as a whole.

I also wanted to respond to that thread. What's interesting is that virtually all of the cities that were compared (Toronto, Philly, Dublin, Vienna, Prague...) differ in two significant ways from Cleveland: 1) they are much more densely built, so important trips can cover much shorter distances even if at slower speeds; and 2) they all have comprehensive commuter and/or regional rail systems that often allow for longer-distance trips to be made much more quickly than on local buses.

I would argue that precisely because Cleveland is less dense and lacks a true regional rail system, it's essential to speed up the buses that medium- and longer-distance commuters rely on. As an example, someone living 0.5 miles from a bus stop in Old Brooklyn might have a 40 minute transit commute compared to only 15 minutes driving. Further, because Cleveland's streets are wider than many of those in the aforementioned cities despite having less traffic, implementing bus lanes is a relatively easy change—parking enforcement is a different matter, but that is a policy barrier rather than a physical one.

The stretch of West 25th between Lorain and Detroit has a total of 5 routes that run through it. Bus improvements would benefit a major portion of RTA riders. And except for a few blocks, much of West 25th is wide enough for both bike and bus infrastructure (Cleveland allows bikers to ride in most bus lanes anyway).

Edited April 29Apr 29 by sonisharri

I'm not against bus lanes but someone did point something out. if you drive from the zoo to Detroit avenue - the only time you ever go under the speed limit is like 600 feet from w25 to Mitchell's. without big time signal prioritization, I'm not sure a dedicated bus lane is saving more than 3 minutes.

I'm just wondering what it really buys you

I feel like you don't need everything done at one time. Bus lanes could be first, signal prioritization could be another phase. Bike lanes with raised curbs would be game changing.

1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said:

Ohio City COULD be the best neighborhood in the state, and one of the best in the country, if we actually try to keep building on the momentum it has seen for the last 30 years. But once again, people can't imagine inconveniencing a few cars or trying something that works great in thousands of other cities around the world that would be a huge long term benefit for residents and neighborhood as a whole.

Ohio City needs infill, density, and better suited land uses on commercial corridors more than anything. Frankly, its still got a fair amount of rough looking buildings and empty lots compared to 1st tier neighborhoods in other cities. Accomplish this and you'll get more support for improving public spaces and transit infrastructure.

As for BTR, I'm just not a fan except for very specific use cases (Clifton would be a good place for it IMO). Like Whipjacka, I don't think it accomplishes much in an area where traffic flows pretty quickly. I'm all for road diets and street improvements but based on the Euclid Ave Health Line I'm not impressed. There should be vision to convert that into a streetcar and extend it across the river to W. 25th. Heck, we already have a bridge for it. Like someone else mentioned, if KC can pull off a streetcar than so should Cleveland.

Edited April 29Apr 29 by Rustbelter

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

I'm not against bus lanes but someone did point something out. if you drive from the zoo to Detroit avenue - the only time you ever go under the speed limit is like 600 feet from w25 to Mitchell's. without big time signal prioritization, I'm not sure a dedicated bus lane is saving more than 3 minutes.

I'm just wondering what it really buys you

The advantage of bus lanes, even without signal prioritization, is pretty clear when you consider the types of things that delay bus rides. When a bus is stuck behind several cars at a light, the cars prevent it from picking up passengers waiting at the bus stop ahead. When the light turns green, the bus has to wait for those cars to clear the intersection before it can approach the stop so passengers can board. Once all of the passengers have boarded and paid their fare, the light has turned red again. Bus lanes fix the problem by allowing passengers to board at the first red light, so that the bus can go at the first green light.

The cumulative delays from multiple extra light cycles can be much more than 3 minutes, and driving a car without stopping will not provide a comparable estimate. Also, keep in mind that a large portion of the lanes that were proposed are rush-hour only, when these types of delays are worst.

39 minutes ago, Rustbelter said:

Ohio City needs infill, density, and better suited land uses on commercial corridors more than anything. Frankly, its still got a fair amount of rough looking buildings and empty lots compared to 1st tier neighborhoods in other cities. Accomplish this and you'll get more support for improving public spaces and transit infrastructure.

As for BTR, I'm just not a fan except for very specific use cases (Clifton would be a good place for it IMO). Like Whipjacka, I don't think it accomplishes much in an area where traffic flows pretty quickly. I'm all for road diets and street improvements but based on the Euclid Ave Health Line I'm not impressed. There should be vision to convert that into a streetcar and extend it across the river to W. 25th. Heck, we already have a bridge for it. Like someone else mentioned, if KC can pull off a streetcar than so should Cleveland.

I think that most of us would love to see your exact streetcar proposal from Euclid to W 25th, and prefer rail to BRT—I absolutely do. However, from the sounds of it RTA has absolutely zero intention of even thinking about building a single new rail line. Yes—if KC can pull off a streetcar then we could too, however we actually have to build a streetcar in order to have one, and the chances of that happening anytime soon are very slim.

W 25th bus lanes, on the other hand, are an actual proposal that RTA has supported. The capacity to make a tangible impact in the foreseeable future is much higher. A streetcar will need much of the same infrastructure (dedicated lanes, signal prioritization, etc.) that BRT would, and if the time comes the lanes could be retrofitted with street-running rail. Why not use those lanes for buses in the mean time?

2 hours ago, sonisharri said:

W 25th bus lanes, on the other hand, are an actual proposal that RTA has supported. The capacity to make a tangible impact in the foreseeable future is much higher. A streetcar will need much of the same infrastructure (dedicated lanes, signal prioritization, etc.) that BRT would, and if the time comes the lanes could be retrofitted with street-running rail. Why not use those lanes for buses in the mean time?

I get all of that, and understand how BRT is supposed to work, but I just don't agree with the RTA's vision here. Particularly with what I've seen with the Euclid Health line which has resulted in "bus creep" of it operating more like a normal bus line and also cars clogging up designated lanes. I also have serious doubts that you just can easily convert BTR to rail by laying down some tracks. Given tangible evidence of recent streetcar project success in peer cities I'd hope the RTA would take notice and maybe look into it (considering long term maintenance, lifespan, economic development, etc.). I just think BRT is conceding to low expectations and I'd rather see that money go elsewhere; i.e., do it right the first time.

And while we're talking about street improvements, how about the abomination that is Chester Avenue. If any street needs to be retrofitted with bus, bike, or walking lanes it's Chester (I know it doesn't have a bus route but it surely could accommodate).

5 hours ago, sonisharri said:

I would argue that precisely because Cleveland is less dense and lacks a true regional rail system, it's essential to speed up the buses that medium- and longer-distance commuters rely on.

Rather than run the buses further and further from the core, I would argue that we need more TOD -- fix the route and the stops, then add density around the stops.

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

Rather than run the buses further and further from the core, I would argue that we need more TOD -- fix the route and the stops, then add density around the stops.

Of course. We should absolutely be promoting density in the core, and better transit will make that more attractive. However, there's still the reality that inner ring suburbs are heavily built up; even for people living in dense neighborhoods in the core, trips to visit family members, stores, and even take advantage of some job opportunities will require trips further out for many years to come. If we want to enable people to live car-free, these trips need to be accessible too.

1 hour ago, Rustbelter said:

I get all of that, and understand how BRT is supposed to work, but I just don't agree with the RTA's vision here. Particularly with what I've seen with the Euclid Health line which has resulted in "bus creep" of it operating more like a normal bus line and also cars clogging up designated lanes. I also have serious doubts that you just can easily convert BTR to rail by laying down some tracks. Given tangible evidence of recent streetcar project success in peer cities I'd hope the RTA would take notice and maybe look into it (considering long term maintenance, lifespan, economic development, etc.). I just think BRT is conceding to low expectations and I'd rather see that money go elsewhere; i.e., do it right the first time.

And while we're talking about street improvements, how about the abomination that is Chester Avenue. If any street needs to be retrofitted with bus, bike, or walking lanes it's Chester (I know it doesn't have a bus route but it surely could accommodate).

I basically agree on all of these points. If there's any chance of new rail lines getting built in the next 15 years, I'm 100% in favor of it. Heck, maybe even just pushing for a streetcar will result in significantly improved bus service in the absolute worst case scenario.

I'm operating under the assumption that RTA will refuse to build rail of any kind for many years. If this is truly the case, I don't see any reason to oppose incrementally better transit in the short term—and hopefully help encourage the types of development that would make a streetcar more attractive. By the time any solid plans, routes, vehicles, etc. for a streetcar line are actually in place, it will probably be time to redo the street again anyway, and ridership demand will be proven.

Even in the best case scenario—let's say that RTA suddenly changes their mind and decides to lean heavily into new streetcar lines, the state and/or federal administrations immediately start directing funding toward identifying new urban rail transit routes and construction, and regional planners are unanimous in supporting a Euclid-West 25th alignment—how many years will it be until that breaks ground? And if this is really a corridor that deserves transit-oriented urban development, are we supposed to maintain the status quo (a 4-lane, pedestrian-unfriendly thoroughfare) in the meantime? Or embrace a road diet that keeps buses in mixed traffic, but with even fewer lanes?

I also agree with you about Chester Ave, but I don't think the funding for bus lane paint on West 25th will be enough to cover the magnitude of the necessary changes.

Folks - when threads are locked (usually for going off topic), the approach should not be "oh hey, here's a semi-related thread I can just post here instead".

As a courtesy, the Admins and Mods can and do parse out posts into their appropriate threads when we have time. Just know that the more threads and off topic posts - it's usually just easier to delete, unfortunate but that's the reality. In this thread alone, in less than ten posts we have: RTA, TOD, Ohio City, BRT, traffic calming, Kansas City, Dublin, inner ring suburbs, Mitchells ice cream (big fan but ...)

In the rare case there isn't an existing thread that's suitable - forumers are always welcome to create a new thread; it can always be merged later. Another out there idea - hold that thought until the appropriate thread is cleaned up and unlocked 😉