Posted June 24, 2024Jun 24 We of course all know art deco. The distinctive style flourished in the 1910s through 1930s worldwide and had a particular influence on those cities that were substantially built up during those decades. Ohio's major cities all have wonderful examples of art deco buildings and other art. In particular, Cleveland and Cincinnati have a high concentration of buildings built from the 1910s to 1930s and as such have heavily art deco-influenced cityscapes. Many buildings that are important to the history of the state such as the Ohio Judicial Center in Columbus, Severance Hall in Cleveland, and Cincinnati Union Terminal are also art deco. In short, art deco (while a worldwide phenomenon) was a very Ohio style. The style further has positive connotations and is aesthetically appealing. As mercilessly as many types of design are mocked, I have never heard criticism of art deco. In an increasingly polarized political environment, art deco has a cross-the-aisle appeal, where liberals can note its progressive era connection and conservatives can tout its connection to our country's heyday. Recently, there is renewed interest in designing modern buildings in an art deco style. Examples: https://www.dispatch.com/story/business/2022/05/05/developer-proposes-six-story-art-deco-style-building-near-east-side/9627460002/ https://www.archdaily.com/968258/are-we-overdue-for-an-art-deco-revival Additionally, in Cleveland in particular, art deco branding is recently increasing with the Guardians' name change and the team increasingly adopting art deco imagery. So here's a proposal (I make it for Cleveland in particular, but it could be applied to basically every city in the state): Why not have a declared preference for art deco design in new buildings, art, and branding? My idea is basically this. If cities, community organizations, architects, and civic leaders collectively say "we favor modern art deco design" then some young architect sketching out a five-over-one will say "gee, that's a cool idea; how can I include some art deco elements without going over budget," and some young graphic designer will say "gee, that's a cool idea; why not use art deco imagery as I'm creating a new logo for [insert random local company]." We don't need to require anyone to do anything. We don't need to impose any regulatory burden on any developer. We just say that we like art deco and we encourage the style. If cities, community organizations, etc. did this, it would not affect the design of many projects, but for some, it probably would make a difference. It could create a new movement in design that ties modern creations to the foundations of our cities. Furthermore, it could create a more cohesive aesthetic plan for new development, which currently tends to be stylistically schizophrenic and uninspired. It would not by any means reduce the diversity of new developments (nobody is being forced to do anything), but for the conformists, those who desire to fit in without rocking the boat any more than necessary, over time it could perhaps create a new baseline expectation of what normal unremarkable designs should look like in Ohio cities. Ultimately, it could increase cohesion while also improving aesthetics. The steps that need to be taken could be minimal. Let's say, for instance, the Mayors of Cleveland and Cincinnati jointly signed a statement saying they want to encourage more art deco style development. Think about the press buzz that kind of announcement could get if done the right way. Would it be front page New York Times, obviously not, but it could get a couple articles in design magazines that architects do read. What if the zoning codes of one or more cities were changed to just add the language "art deco style design is encouraged but not required." How many developers would say "oh, that's quirky and fun; let's do it!" Perhaps enough to get something neat going. As one final point, in the increasingly hegemonic world we live in, think how much the culture is set by a few global cities. There's very little independent local news most places, so much design and marketing is done by some company headquartered in New York, and new development and design looks basically the same everywhere in the country. I was really impressed by recent photos of the Superman set which have a cohesive and retro-styled design scheme for all the fake businesses and Metropolis logos. It just got me to thinking what if we in Cleveland (or all Ohio cities) actually had public art and design that was more cohesive and not basically the same as everywhere else in the country. Why not put a stake in the ground and make at least one intentional design decision for ourselves instead of just copying what other places are doing? I don't have much influence with the necessary parties, but some on this forum do. If you agree with what I'm saying above, perhaps consider leveraging your influence. I think the kind of initiative I'm describing is the sort of low hanging fruit that consumes no resources but makes our cities into better places to live.
June 24, 2024Jun 24 I would love this, but for that to happen, Ohio is going to need a lot more incredibly wealthy people. Building art deco style is super expensive and the rents/buy cost for those units are really really high.
June 24, 2024Jun 24 Art Deco like buildings proposed in Columbus: Hubbard and High - proposal stage Near East side - under construction The Deco - completed 2017
June 24, 2024Jun 24 Author 29 minutes ago, VintageLife said: I would love this, but for that to happen, Ohio is going to need a lot more incredibly wealthy people. Building art deco style is super expensive and the rents/buy cost for those units are really really high. Cost is obviously a big impediment. I doubt hardly any true art deco buildings can be built cost effectively anymore. So you would get a lot of what I'll call "modern design with art deco characteristics." The link to the Columbus project above is one example of the kind of thing that could be done cost effectively in many instances.
June 24, 2024Jun 24 Author 3 minutes ago, Pablo said: Art Deco like buildings proposed in Columbus: Hubbard and High - proposal stage Near East side - under construction The Deco - completed 2017 These are exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is what (in my opinion) we ought to be encouraging.
June 24, 2024Jun 24 1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said: These are exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is what (in my opinion) we ought to be encouraging. The bottom one doesn’t look that great in person, but the other two I have high hopes for. The top one hasn’t started yet, but based on the developers other projects, rents for that building will be $4,000+ a month
June 24, 2024Jun 24 I love this idea! I actually don't think it's as far fetched as it seems, provided there's the political will. We already have several boards that effectively serve as design review boards, all that really needs done is to make sure very pro art deco people get appointed to these boards. If you manage that, the rest will pretty much fall into place. At present there isn't the political will, but at the local level it doesn't take that much noise to be noticed. Contact info for Cleveland City Planning is below, if even 10 people reach out and advocate for art deco design principles, I'd bet that will be more lobbying than they have received for any architectural style this year, probably by a lot. People could also reach out to the mayor and City Council, as they have influence as well. Obviously the same thing is true for any other city as well. https://planning.clevelandohio.gov/directory.html Personally I think you might have more luck pushing a particular neighborhood or area as an art deco district. For Cleveland, I'd recommend pushing for Bedrock's riverfront area to be done in Art Deco style. Frame this as the Tower City district, and a nod to the historic character of the area, and I think that might make an impression on some members of the committee. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Art_Deco_architecture_in_Ohio All of this isn't to say there aren't any problems with this idea. Added cost is one for sure, though the effect is often overblown. The YouTube channel "The Aesthetic City" has some good videos dealing with this topic, specifically for classical architecture, but the same principles apply. I'd argue the bigger issue is perceived as a city that's hard to build in, which is the logical consequence of having planning committees willing to push back on developers. That's why I like @LlamaLawyer idea so much, because he at least attempts to turn that formulation around. By directing developers with style guidelines toward a particular style, they may choose to opt to build in a slightly more expensive style in the hopes of swifter approval. By no means guaranteed to work, but I could see it working, the theory is certainly plausible. And even if it only works 10% of the time, that would make a huge difference!
June 25, 2024Jun 25 16 hours ago, VintageLife said: The bottom one doesn’t look that great in person, but the other two I have high hopes for. The top one hasn’t started yet, but based on the developers other projects, rents for that building will be $4,000+ a month The Deco is not that bad - it's just too long. The amount of wires on Indianola is crazy.
June 25, 2024Jun 25 What is the benefit of limiting or promoting a specific architectural style that is connected with a specific time in history?
June 25, 2024Jun 25 Author 24 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said: What is the benefit of limiting or promoting a specific architectural style that is connected with a specific time in history? "limiting," probably none, and that's not what I'm suggesting. In terms of promoting, my appeal to the city's history is just one piece of the story that I'm telling. I do think that grounding it in local history helps answer the "why art deco as opposed to some other style" question a little bit. There are other reasons for this, for instance art deco tends to be more minimalist and less ornate than art noveau or neo-classical, which makes it (relatively) a more practical style to emulate. But most importantly, I just want to get people excited and inspired. A connection to our city's history could help do that. There's a lot of really uninspired design out there. I just have to think there are a lot of young architects who would love an open invitation to do something fun. I would be loathe to do anything that limits or hinders developers when we're in such a housing-starved environment. By making this all optional, you can inspire the inspire-able without hindering anyone else.
June 25, 2024Jun 25 3 hours ago, Chas Wiederhold said: What is the benefit of limiting or promoting a specific architectural style that is connected with a specific time in history? Fair question. I'll take a stab at it. 1) Creating a sense of place through architectural cohesion. One of my main grips with the far suburbs is that they all look the same regardless of which city or even Metro area you are in. I grew up in Mentor, OH, a suburb on the far east side of Cleveland. I used to joke it was in suburbia USA because it looks like every other suburb in America. Contrast that with Cleveland Heights, still on the East Side of Cleveland, but I can generally tell within a quarter of a mile where the border with University Heights is purely because there are different architectural styles. That's cool! It helps create a sense that it actually matters where you live, there are real differences, that means something. Unfortunately many big cities fall into this trap too. I call this variation of the trap the global city trap, where a city ends up feeling like every other big city in the world because they lack distinctive architecture. This is particularly true of many of the more modern skylines, in part because over the last 50+ years there's basically been one globally dominant architecture style for tall buildings (often derrided as glass block). Reasonable people can disagree on this point, but I prefer cities to feel distinctive and different from one another. 2) Art Deco is near universally popular with the American public, in large part because it's d̶i̶s̶t̶i̶n̶c̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶ while still maintaining roots in the classical Western architectural tradition. I've yet to meet anyone who claims to dislike Art Deco architecture, though I'm sure someone will now comment something to that effect. 3) I'd argue more traditional architecture styles just really is more beautiful. That's a really hard argument to make. Here's a good video that lays out the argument pretty well, specifically for Classical architecture, but I'd argue that many of these same principles apply to Art Deco which as I stated in point two has roots in the classical tradition, just with a d̶i̶s̶t̶i̶n̶c̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶A̶m̶e̶r̶i̶c̶a̶n̶ twist. On 3/10/2023 at 9:48 AM, Ethan said: I saw this video last night, and I think it merits discussion. Or at least some extra love to what appears to be a new YouTube channel making quality content. The video argues for a psychological basis for beauty, rather than a merely subjective concept. I find his argument fascinating and compelling, as well as research based. While obviously beauty is partially subjective, I agree that a large degree of it can be reasonably thought of as objective within a human context. Curious to hear other people's thoughts! Edited June 25, 2024Jun 25 by Ethan Struckthrough distinctly American
June 25, 2024Jun 25 39 minutes ago, Ethan said: 2) Art Deco is near universally popular with the American public, in large part because it's distinctly American while still maintaining roots in the classical Western architectural tradition. I've yet to meet anyone who claims to dislike Art Deco architecture, though I'm sure someone will now comment something to that effect. Art Deco is actually French, not American, though it flourished in America and Europe greatly. And Shanghai. And Buenos Aires. And Sao Paulo. And Mexico City. And Havana. And Napier, New Zealand. And... "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 25, 2024Jun 25 1 hour ago, ColDayMan said: Art Deco is actually French, not American, though it flourished in America and Europe greatly. And Shanghai. And Buenos Aires. And Sao Paulo. And Mexico City. And Havana. And Napier, New Zealand. And... Fair enough, you're right, Art Deco actually stands for Arts décoratifs, so clearly French. I've edited my comment, though I don't think I'm unique is associating the style with America, even if erroneously. Regardless, I think my comment still stands. Even the argument you're replying to, that art deco as an architectural style is near universally popular with Americans, I think still holds, despite my reasoning being flawed. Llamalawyer phrased it better in the opening comment. "connection to our country's heyday."
June 25, 2024Jun 25 Author 2 hours ago, ColDayMan said: Art Deco is actually French, not American, though it flourished in America and Europe greatly. And Shanghai. And Buenos Aires. And Sao Paulo. And Mexico City. And Havana. And Napier, New Zealand. And... I don't know that I really agree with this characterization. Apples are originally from Europe (not North America) but we don't have a problem saying "American as apple pie." While art deco originally was developed in France, a lot of its most prominent embodiments are in the U.S. And in many U.S. cities, the most iconic structures or sculptures are art deco (e.g. Empire State Building/Chrysler Building New York; Spirit of Detroit in Detroit; Los Angeles City Hall in LA; Guardians of Traffic in Cleveland; the LeVeque in Columbus, etc.). I don't deny the broad international reach, but saying art deco is "French, not American" is a little like saying the automobile is "German, not American." I think art deco is a quintessentially American style which did originate in France. Edited June 25, 2024Jun 25 by LlamaLawyer
June 25, 2024Jun 25 Minor correction @LlamaLawyer Terminal Tower was designed in the Beaux Arts style.
June 25, 2024Jun 25 Author 3 minutes ago, Clvlndr in LV said: Minor correction @LlamaLawyer Terminal Tower was designed in the Beaux Arts style. Sorry, fair point. I modified my above comment to substitute a better example.
June 25, 2024Jun 25 Defining a heyday is a bit troubling to me. Just as fashion, technology, cuisine, language, etc changes over time, so too does architecture. No reason to know learn from, be aware of, influenced by historic architecture... but I see very little strong objective reasoning to completely mimic or resurrect a style outside the purpose of costume. Other architectural scholars might concur or disagree, but I was taught that there were two primary branches of Art Deco; one that used organic motifs in its ornamentation and one that used technological advances in its ornamental motifs. The Guardian Building in Detroit representing corn and Cincinnati's Union Terminal resembling a radio express this pretty well. I think the latter illustrates my discomfort with imposing or promoting a specific style (or rather this specific style) because the style was so linked to celebrating the processual advancement of technology (as are most architectural styles, that is, products of a way of building with an available material with the technology available at the time). It seems ironic to promote a 100 year old style that itself promoted cutting edge technology at the time and a departure from styles of the past. Personally, as a "young" architect, I really have no interest in designing architecture in a historic or historicized style. 1) Tradespeople don't build using 100 year old tech. 2) using modern materials and methods is more sustainable and efficient. 3) Historic details do not address contemporary issues I love Art Deco buildings and design for real though.
June 25, 2024Jun 25 2 hours ago, LlamaLawyer said: I don't know that I really agree with this characterization. Apples are originally from Europe (not North America) but we don't have a problem saying "American as apple pie." While art deco originally was developed in France, a lot of its most prominent embodiments are in the U.S. And in many U.S. cities, the most iconic structures or sculptures are art deco (e.g. Empire State Building/Chrysler Building New York; Spirit of Detroit in Detroit; Los Angeles City Hall in LA; Guardians of Traffic in Cleveland; the LeVeque in Columbus, etc.). I don't deny the broad international reach, but saying art deco is "French, not American" is a little like saying the automobile is "German, not American." I think art deco is a quintessentially American style which did originate in France. Eh, I don't know about that. I've seen Art Deco examples all over the world particularly flourishing in Western Europe and Latin America just as much as the United States. I think if you live in the USA, I'm going to assume you'll associate Art Deco mostly with skyscrapers which are an American invention I think you're alluding to. But with my travels, I just associate Art Deco with time period style the world was into pre-WWII. And regarding the automobile, I don't associate that with any country, in particular. The most famous cars are European, after all. America is just so car-centric that I can see the localized association with Car = American...but then again, I drive an Ohio-made Honda... "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
June 25, 2024Jun 25 1 hour ago, Chas Wiederhold said: Defining a heyday is a bit troubling to me. Just as fashion, technology, cuisine, language, etc changes over time, so too does architecture. No reason to know learn from, be aware of, influenced by historic architecture... but I see very little strong objective reasoning to completely mimic or resurrect a style outside the purpose of costume. Other architectural scholars might concur or disagree, but I was taught that there were two primary branches of Art Deco; one that used organic motifs in its ornamentation and one that used technological advances in its ornamental motifs. The Guardian Building in Detroit representing corn and Cincinnati's Union Terminal resembling a radio express this pretty well. I think the latter illustrates my discomfort with imposing or promoting a specific style (or rather this specific style) because the style was so linked to celebrating the processual advancement of technology (as are most architectural styles, that is, products of a way of building with an available material with the technology available at the time). It seems ironic to promote a 100 year old style that itself promoted cutting edge technology at the time and a departure from styles of the past. Personally, as a "young" architect, I really have no interest in designing architecture in a historic or historicized style. 1) Tradespeople don't build using 100 year old tech. 2) using modern materials and methods is more sustainable and efficient. 3) Historic details do not address contemporary issues I love Art Deco buildings and design for real though. I highly recommend you watch this video linked below. It addresses several of your arguments much better than I will be able to on a forum message. Topics addressed in the video, architectural progress, the subjective/objective nature of beauty, the disconnect between architects and laypeople, evidence based design, and how evidence based design factors into sustainability. I had a longer response written out, but I realized I was just rehashing the video, just not as well. One note, that channel is mostly focused on classical design, but I'd argue most Art Deco passes evidence based design tests. Ultimately, I sympathize strongly with your sustainability point, and I think it's important that we utilize evidence based design to ensure buildings we build now will still be considered beautiful decades into the future.
June 26, 2024Jun 26 my fav thing with this current neo deco revival around ny here is the return of tile. i just love it. i dk how expensive it is to do, but if it can be done for a classy apt building do it. supertall one vandy has some tile facade and very snazzy 520 fifth going up right now has a lot. and of course the fitzroy in chelsea is swimming in over the top green tile —
June 26, 2024Jun 26 10 minutes ago, mrnyc said: my fav thing with this current neo deco revival around ny here is the return of tile. i just love it. i dk how expensive it is to do, but if it can be done for a classy apt building do it. supertall one vandy has some tile facade and very snazzy 520 fifth going up right now has a lot. and of course the fitzroy in chelsea is swimming in over the top green tile — Yeah that one looks great. I wish it were used more often everywhere. Only one I can think of in Cleveland is the new Metrohealth hospital building.
November 4, 2024Nov 4 Cool video arguing for bringing back Art Deco skyscrapers. The last couple of minutes seem to be a bit of an add for the photography book he's releasing, but regardless it's a cool video. I'd love to see more skyscrapers built like this.
November 8, 2024Nov 8 On 11/4/2024 at 1:41 PM, Ethan said: Cool video arguing for bringing back Art Deco skyscrapers. The last couple of minutes seem to be a bit of an add for the photography book he's releasing, but regardless it's a cool video. I'd love to see more skyscrapers built like this. Agreed on new builds. I'd also like to see two of our fine Cleveland original examples saved and repurposed (Fenn Tower and the Ohio Bell Building). Fenn Tower is teetering on the edge currently...haven't seen any updates from CSU since the closure announcement in June.
November 9, 2024Nov 9 3 hours ago, Cleburger said: Agreed on new builds. I'd also like to see two of our fine Cleveland original examples saved and repurposed (Fenn Tower and the Ohio Bell Building). Fenn Tower is teetering on the edge currently...haven't seen any updates from CSU since the closure announcement in June. I thought there were some housing plans for the Ohio Bell Building the last few years? That crown really needs updated and lit up to accentuate its cool design. That building for some reason gives off Superman/Daily Planet vibes - if only there was a Superman connection to Cleveland..
January 9Jan 9 Art Deco style is popular again, a century after its heyday https://apnews.com/article/art-deco-style-returns-fashion-decor-8a2fbf29fd725d3b08550e086648e7f5
February 4Feb 4 On 6/24/2024 at 3:26 PM, VintageLife said: I would love this, but for that to happen, Ohio is going to need a lot more incredibly wealthy people. Building art deco style is super expensive and the rents/buy cost for those units are really really high. that’s what i would have thought too, but it seems columbus has three new neo deco apt buildings, so there does seem to be an ability to build in this style reasonably. however, for the top end you ain’t wrong … 🙀😬 Apt. 8 Doorman Condo in Chelsea (Manhattan) $15,950,000 ($3,535 /ft2) -5.9% (See Price History) 4 beds, 5.5 baths, ~ 4,512 ft2 Est. monthlies with mortgage: $101,341 Listed on Nov 6, 2024 by Douglas Elliman Real Estate(90 days on market) https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/chelsea/the-fitzroy-514-west-24th-street/63197
February 4Feb 4 1 hour ago, mrnyc said: that’s what i would have thought too, but it seems columbus has three new neo deco apt buildings, so there does seem to be an ability to build in this style reasonably. however, for the top end you ain’t wrong … 🙀😬 Apt. 8 Doorman Condo in Chelsea (Manhattan) $15,950,000 ($3,535 /ft2) -5.9% (See Price History) 4 beds, 5.5 baths, ~ 4,512 ft2 Est. monthlies with mortgage: $101,341 Listed on Nov 6, 2024 by Douglas Elliman Real Estate(90 days on market) https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/chelsea/the-fitzroy-514-west-24th-street/63197 What are the Columbus ones?
February 6Feb 6 On 2/4/2025 at 8:42 AM, VintageLife said: What are the Columbus ones? did you find it? scroll up the thread a ways — 👍
February 6Feb 6 3 minutes ago, mrnyc said: did you find it? scroll up the thread a ways — 👍 I did, I’m hoping the tall one in the short north happens, they said it wouldn’t be anytime soon. the middle one is starting to finish up and is not looking great at all, sadly. It appears they really made it the cheapest way possible. I live close to the third one and always forget it’s art deco, but it does look nice. It would be great to see more of it pop up.
April 22Apr 22 Not in Ohio, but this seems like it fits here as well. Art Deco May genuinely be coming back. Hopefully this project succeeds.
Sunday at 10:33 AM5 days 8 hours ago, FutureboyWonder said:Here's the thing, we really don't have to "look like anywhere else".I'm totally pontificating here..Columbus is building a really nice looking neo-neo art deco structure, a suburb just outside of Chicago built their downtown area up with a good number of more stylistically traditional structures if i remember right. There are plenty more examples around the nation, im pretty North Charleston is a good one to check out.We can build in a way that preserves and even expands our regional identity, i can't see why we have to have these modern, generally kinda ugly buildings antithetical to cleveland. I don't know what it looks like trying to pull together a bloc of public support saying "hey you, build like this!" , but it'd sure be cool.As far as industrial structures, like the power plant that's being demolished, I've always wondered if we couldn't still have some of those decorative old school elements instead of grey boxes and only Grey boxes. I'm not asking for fake smokestacks, but I'm not saying no either.Welcome to the club! I think your post deserves to be here as well. I love how you frame unique and beautiful, architecture employing traditional techniques as important to creating a sense of space. I couldn't agree more! I was just in Europe for a couple of weeks, and I was reminded of exactly that. Prague was probably the best example, utilizing a heavy amount of absolutely gorgeous Art Nouveau buildings to make the old town core of Prague feel like it's own place, not to mention making every single corner absolutely gorgeous. This thread was created with the idea of making Art Deco that style for Ohio's large cities. Personally I'd be happy with any more traditional style (and I mean traditional in the sense that it prioritizes being aesthetically beautiful over being aesthetically interesting) but Art Deco has the strongest connection to America amongst the styles that fit that criteria.
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