Posted September 6, 2024Sep 6 Was perusing the Pickard Chilton website and still found no evidence that the SHW tower exists. I did, however, find this cool project they are doing in SF. Totally residential, 840' (will be third tallest in the city) and has a pedestrian bridge connected to the newer Salesforce Park. Caught myself daydreaming that our new building will spur some sort of residential development similar (likely nowhere near in height) to this on one of the SHW campus lots.
September 6, 2024Sep 6 1 minute ago, GREGinPARMA said: Was perusing the Pickard Chilton website and still found no evidence that the SHW tower exists. I did, however, find this cool project they are doing in SF. Totally residential, 840' (will be third tallest in the city) and has a pedestrian bridge connected to the newer Salesforce Park. Caught myself daydreaming that our new building will spur some sort of residential development similar (likely nowhere near in height) to this on one of the SHW campus lots. Plot twist, phase 2 is a mega mixed use tower with Offices, Hotel and Residential for the Valspar employees coming over.
September 6, 2024Sep 6 15 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: Plot twist, phase 2 is a mega mixed use tower with Offices, Hotel and Residential for the Valspar employees coming over. Wouldn't that be lovely. From your lips to God's ears
September 6, 2024Sep 6 "Totally residential, 840' (will be third tallest in the city) and has a pedestrian bridge connected to the newer Salesforce Park. " Hmmm....so people will be able to live in this tower and work in Salesforce without ever going out onto the sidewalks. I wonder if the city that tried to ban employee cafeterias because people were staying in their buildings is going to be okay with that? At least in Cleveland the weather can justify skywalks. Edited September 6, 2024Sep 6 by E Rocc
September 7, 2024Sep 7 SW #2, Viaduct high-rise and the (drum roll) skyline changing” hotel announced on the same day this fall.👍
September 26, 2024Sep 26 I'm surprised with all of our ideas on here that this didn't immediately become the most popular thread. I'm going to throw in my dream Ohio City Clinic lot project. Edit: 500 space parking garage is being built under the assumption that the clinic wouldn't sell this lot without their existing spaces being replaced. It is based on the area around the Munsterhof plaza in Zurich. Here is a google streetview of it. Where the church is would be open to Irishtown Bend and Downtown views. Imagine walking down an alley and getting to the point where it opens up to the plaza and park. In this view it is down the alley where the yellow building is. Another cozy alley way. Play around with the streetview in this area and just imagine walking from new Hingetown pedestrian area on W29, past the Vibe apartments/Church&State/City Goods, and through these buildings to the park or going to eat outside at a restaurant on the plaza. Or walking the opposite way to get a Roaming Biscuit sandwich on a Saturday morning after a walk in the park. All of it would be 6-7 different 5-7 story buildings with different facades like these to make it look like a Central European Old Town area. It's not like the changing facades would really add any costs, it's just different paint colors, alternating window sizes, and a foot or 2 variations in set backs every few facade changes. It would have a mix of townhomes and apartments with sidewalk level entrances and small porches mixed in with small storefronts to add a lot of cozy feel. There would probably be around 500-600 residents in here, or 400 with a small hotel or office spaces. I would also make the storefronts wide and shallow in the alleyway spaces. That way you allow for more storefront space usage for each small business while not needing tenants to be able to afford massive spaces, and have a more continuous flow of decorated sidewalk and businesses to walk by. A City Goods to one of these storefronts small business incubator pipeline?? Maybe Bookhouse could use the open part of the plaza next to them for a German style beer garden to add even more vibrancy to the plaza. Central European style Christmas markets in November and December on the plaza. This set up makes the plaza comfortable to use for events and outdoor seating in the winter months as it is protected from the typical wind directions. Do what many businesses over there do in the winter and offer some blankets to people to sit ouside. No car access. Underground parking for residents and a garage for the clinic and other customers. It'd be a bit cheesy, but maybe wrap the parking garage to look a bit like a church, and build a church spire with stairs to a platform with a great view of Cleveland and the lake. Put some residential amenities on top of the garage as well for a large shared space with great views. The little blue square on W25th would be a wide and inviting brick/stone crossing to the park. Ideally the streetcar tunnels can be brought back with the Metrohealth BRT upgrading to a streetcar with a stop under the crossing to the park, and resurfacing to go down Bridge behind the West Side Market to the W25 stop while also avoiding that mess of an intersection at Lorain/W25. This would easily connect residents to Downtown and the W25 red line stop and give people the opportunity to live car free or car light. Hopefully a future rapid line through Lakewood passing through there as well. This plus the West Side Market proposals from @bdaily would make Ohio City one of the best neighborhoods in the country. Edited September 26, 2024Sep 26 by PlanCleveland Typo
September 26, 2024Sep 26 7 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said: I'm surprised with all of our ideas on here that this didn't immediately become the most popular thread. I'm going to throw in my dream Ohio City Clinic lot project. It is based on the area around the Munsterhof plaza in Zurich. Here is a google streetview of it. Where the church is would be open to Irishtown Bend and Downtown views. Imagine walking down an alley and getting to the point where it opens up to the plaza and park. In this view it is down the alley where the yellow building is. Another cozy alley way. Play around with the streetview in this area and just imagine walking from new Hingetown pedestrian area on W29, past the Vibe apartments/Church&State/City Goods, and through these buildings to the park or going to eat outside at a restaurant on the plaza. Or walking the opposite way to get a Roaming Biscuit sandwich on a Saturday morning after a walk in the park. All of it would be 6-7 different 4-6 story buildings with different facades like these to make it look like a Central European Old Town area. It's not like the changing facades would really add any costs, it's just different paint colors, alternating window sizes, and a a foot or 2 variations in set backs every few facade changes. It would have a mix of townhomes and apartments with sidewalk level entrances and small porches mixed in with small storefronts to add a lot of cozy feel. There would probably be around 500-600 residents in here, or 400 with a small hotel or office spaces. I would also make the storefronts wide and shallow in the alleyway spaces. That way you allow for more storefront space usage for each small business while not needing tenants to be able to afford massive spaces, and have a more continuous flow of decorated sidewalk and businesses to walk by. A City Goods to one of these storefronts small business incubator pipeline?? Maybe Bookhouse could use the open part of the plaza next to them for a German style beer garden to add even more vibrancy to the plaza. Central European style Christmas markets in November and December on the plaza. This set up makes the plaza comfortable to use for events and outdoor seating in the winter months as it is protected from the typical wind directions. Do what many businesses over there do in the winter and offer some blankets to people to sit ouside. No car access. Underground parking for residents and a garage for the clinic and other customers. It'd be a bit cheesy, but maybe wrap the parking garage to look a bit like a church, and build a church spire with stairs to a platform with a great view of Cleveland and the lake. Put some residential amenities on top of the garage as well for a large shared space with great views. The little blue square on W25th would be a wide and inviting brick/stone crossing to the park. Ideally the streetcar tunnels can be brought back with the Metrohealth BRT upgrading to a streetcar with a stop under the crossing to the park, and resurfacing to go down Bridge behind the West Side Market to the W25 stop while also avoiding that mess of an intersection at Lorain/W25. This would easily connect residents to Downtown and the W25 red line stop and give people the opportunity to live car free or car light. Hopefully a future rapid line through Lakewood passing through there as well. This plus the West Side Market proposals from @bdaily would make Ohio City one of the best neighborhoods in the country. Until I read your post I looked at this image and said "Why would you want an 800 space garage?" lol.
September 26, 2024Sep 26 3 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: Until I read your post I looked at this image and said "Why would you want an 800 space garage?" lol. Haha yaaaaaaa it's unfortunate, but I doubt the Clinic sells this lot to anyone unless they build a 500 space garage to replace the spots they're losing. A small price to pay for a much better space though. I just made note of that at the top of my post so it doesn't spook anyone else. Edited September 26, 2024Sep 26 by PlanCleveland
September 26, 2024Sep 26 What if Cleveland was able to build any of their Downtown Subway plans such as the one that almost passed in (I believe in 1955)? Or what if Cleveland built the Dual Hub Corridor? We all know TOD is a buzz phrase that people use to talk about the impact transit can have on urban planning and development now. Do you all think that with a subway system connecting to more parts of the city would have had an impact on the city in terms of continued development, at least slowing the decline? Or do you all feel that the mindset of people back then towards transit would have led to the system experiencing disinvestment and decline similar to NYC in the 70s and 80s? I know a lot of factors led to Cleveland's decline but I am curious if we would have scaled back our "Urban renewal" mindset and instead built neighborhoods around the Subway system with density similar to how we built our early neighborhoods around Streetcars. I have attached the 1955 plan if you all are unfamiliar and the link with the various failed plans. https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/361
September 26, 2024Sep 26 It would probably be as underutilized as the red, blue, green and Flats lines. The region didn't know how to combat deindustrialization and its ancillary consequences, and I don't think a subway would have made a difference.
September 26, 2024Sep 26 57 minutes ago, TBideon said: It would probably be as underutilized as the red, blue, green and Flats lines. The region didn't know how to combat deindustrialization and its ancillary consequences, and I don't think a subway would have made a difference. But didn't the Red Line have great ridership up until the 80's/90s? So you feel we still wouldn't have built around those lines?
September 27, 2024Sep 27 17 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: But didn't the Red Line have great ridership up until the 80's/90s? So you feel we still wouldn't have built around those lines? It had great ridership up to about 1960 when it had 60,000 boardings per weekday. It fell by half into the 1980s and was at 15,000-20,000 per weekday into the mid-2010s which would be good for a light-rail line, but not a heavy metro. Our light-rail lines typically had about half of the ridership of the Red Line which was still more than the Healthline. BTW the buses that funneled into the Euclid Corridor between UC and Downtown carried just over 50,000 people per weekday in the early 1980s. Now they carry fewer than 10% of that. If you really want a shocker, consider that the streetcars on Euclid used to carry over 100,000 riders per day and it wasn't even the Cleveland Railway Company's busiest line. St. Clair was; Superior was a close third. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 2024Sep 27 20 hours ago, PlanCleveland said: I'm surprised with all of our ideas on here that this didn't immediately become the most popular thread. I'm going to throw in my dream Ohio City Clinic lot project. Edit: 500 space parking garage is being built under the assumption that the clinic wouldn't sell this lot without their existing spaces being replaced. It is based on the area around the Munsterhof plaza in Zurich. Here is a google streetview of it. Where the church is would be open to Irishtown Bend and Downtown views. Imagine walking down an alley and getting to the point where it opens up to the plaza and park. In this view it is down the alley where the yellow building is. Another cozy alley way. Play around with the streetview in this area and just imagine walking from new Hingetown pedestrian area on W29, past the Vibe apartments/Church&State/City Goods, and through these buildings to the park or going to eat outside at a restaurant on the plaza. Or walking the opposite way to get a Roaming Biscuit sandwich on a Saturday morning after a walk in the park. All of it would be 6-7 different 5-7 story buildings with different facades like these to make it look like a Central European Old Town area. It's not like the changing facades would really add any costs, it's just different paint colors, alternating window sizes, and a foot or 2 variations in set backs every few facade changes. It would have a mix of townhomes and apartments with sidewalk level entrances and small porches mixed in with small storefronts to add a lot of cozy feel. There would probably be around 500-600 residents in here, or 400 with a small hotel or office spaces. I would also make the storefronts wide and shallow in the alleyway spaces. That way you allow for more storefront space usage for each small business while not needing tenants to be able to afford massive spaces, and have a more continuous flow of decorated sidewalk and businesses to walk by. A City Goods to one of these storefronts small business incubator pipeline?? Maybe Bookhouse could use the open part of the plaza next to them for a German style beer garden to add even more vibrancy to the plaza. Central European style Christmas markets in November and December on the plaza. This set up makes the plaza comfortable to use for events and outdoor seating in the winter months as it is protected from the typical wind directions. Do what many businesses over there do in the winter and offer some blankets to people to sit ouside. No car access. Underground parking for residents and a garage for the clinic and other customers. It'd be a bit cheesy, but maybe wrap the parking garage to look a bit like a church, and build a church spire with stairs to a platform with a great view of Cleveland and the lake. Put some residential amenities on top of the garage as well for a large shared space with great views. The little blue square on W25th would be a wide and inviting brick/stone crossing to the park. Ideally the streetcar tunnels can be brought back with the Metrohealth BRT upgrading to a streetcar with a stop under the crossing to the park, and resurfacing to go down Bridge behind the West Side Market to the W25 stop while also avoiding that mess of an intersection at Lorain/W25. This would easily connect residents to Downtown and the W25 red line stop and give people the opportunity to live car free or car light. Hopefully a future rapid line through Lakewood passing through there as well. This plus the West Side Market proposals from @bdaily would make Ohio City one of the best neighborhoods in the country. It'd be awesome to have a dense development here with some cozy pedestrian only streets! Stantec did work on a TOD proposal on these lots. https://www.stantec.com/en/projects/united-states-projects/-/25-connects-tod-plan-west-25th-street And I believe GCRTA is still pursuing the 25th BRT. https://www.25connects.com/home Presenting some ideas for the near west side tonight for anyone that may be interested! https://www.pechakucha.com/events/pechakucha-night-cleveland-volume-42
September 27, 2024Sep 27 1 hour ago, bdaily said: It'd be awesome to have a dense development here with some cozy pedestrian only streets! Stantec did work on a TOD proposal on these lots. https://www.stantec.com/en/projects/united-states-projects/-/25-connects-tod-plan-west-25th-street And I believe GCRTA is still pursuing the 25th BRT. https://www.25connects.com/home Presenting some ideas for the near west side tonight for anyone that may be interested! https://www.pechakucha.com/events/pechakucha-night-cleveland-volume-42 Ya I've seen various proposals over the years. Me with my no say in the matter just prefers something closer to this and the cozy feel of Hingetown and a plaza highlighting the park with a lot of patio seating vs 1200 parking garage spaces and only 2-300ish residential units haha. This and potential developments in the WSM lots like you propose are really the only major Ohio City development opportunity spaces left, so we really need to take advantage of these lots. I know the BRT project is still going on, and hopefully we start to see more movement on it soon. Unfortunately I can't make it to your presentation as I'm not in Cleveland this weekend, but I look forward to hopefully watching or reading it. Edited September 27, 2024Sep 27 by PlanCleveland
September 27, 2024Sep 27 2 hours ago, KJP said: It had great ridership up to about 1960 when it had 60,000 boardings per weekday. It fell by half into the 1980s and was at 15,000-20,000 per weekday into the mid-2010s which would be good for a light-rail line, but not a heavy metro. Our light-rail lines typically had about half of the ridership of the Red Line which was still more than the Healthline. BTW the buses that funneled into the Euclid Corridor between UC and Downtown carried just over 50,000 people per weekday in the early 1980s. Now they carry fewer than 10% of that. If you really want a shocker, consider that the streetcars on Euclid used to carry over 100,000 riders per day and it wasn't even the Cleveland Railway Company's busiest line. St. Clair was; Superior was a close third. I was a nearly daily rider of the Red Line for awhile during the earlier part of 80s. As commuter usage began to drop off, someone at GCRTA (or possibly CMSD) had the bright idea of sticking HS age busing kids on the Red Line. They weren't malicious or dangerous, but they were disruptive and annoying even to me (only a couple years older). Commuter usage dropped rapidly and dramatically, particularly women. I doubt it ever recovered.
September 27, 2024Sep 27 5 hours ago, bdaily said: It'd be awesome to have a dense development here with some cozy pedestrian only streets! Stantec did work on a TOD proposal on these lots. https://www.stantec.com/en/projects/united-states-projects/-/25-connects-tod-plan-west-25th-street And I believe GCRTA is still pursuing the 25th BRT. https://www.25connects.com/home Presenting some ideas for the near west side tonight for anyone that may be interested! https://www.pechakucha.com/events/pechakucha-night-cleveland-volume-42 @bdaily Ah, crap. I totally forgot about this and I can't go. Please let me know how it goes. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 27, 2024Sep 27 3 hours ago, PlanCleveland said: Ya I've seen various proposals over the years. Me with my no say in the matter just prefers something closer to this and the cozy feel of Hingetown and a plaza highlighting the park with a lot of patio seating vs 1200 parking garage spaces and only 2-300ish residential units haha. This and potential developments in the WSM lots like you propose are really the only major Ohio City development opportunity spaces left, so we really need to take advantage of these lots. I know the BRT project is still going on, and hopefully we start to see more movement on it soon. Unfortunately I can't make it to your presentation as I'm not in Cleveland this weekend, but I look forward to hopefully watching or reading it. Agreed! I can think of a few other areas that have a few blocks of land...W 26th behind Voss being one. 😉 @PlanCleveland @KJP It should be recorded and I'll post a link here on this thread for anyone interested that can't make it! Edited September 27, 2024Sep 27 by bdaily
September 28, 2024Sep 28 I like the idea of trying to incorporate walkable European type laneways in developments like PlanCleveland mentioned. Realistically these will need parking but I'm sure with some creativity it can happen, particularly with large sites. Cleveland has many potential sites for this, like the Lutheran lots as mentioned, Scranton Peninsula, and the Wolstein Center site to name a few. In terms of projects I'd like to see, it would probably be Scranton Peninsula, Flats West Bank, and really just building up the St. Clair/Superior heading east from downtown. One of Cleveland's weaknesses is that the downtown seems to abruptly end instead of transitioning into residential neighborhoods, so I'd like to see that change. Obviously the river/topography is part of that on the west side, but the areas heading east of downtown are full of untapped potential and currently feel like a major dead zone with horrible land uses for a downtown adjacent urban area. Developing around the Greyhound station would be a good start.
September 28, 2024Sep 28 On 9/26/2024 at 2:35 PM, MyPhoneDead said: Do you all think that with a subway system connecting to more parts of the city would have had an impact on the city in terms of continued development, at least slowing the decline? Yes. Imagine if a Euclid Avenue subway was built instead of ramming Chester Avenue right through Hough, subdividing the neighorbood. My grandparents lived in Hough in the 1940's and told me about demolishing houses & buildings and building Chester. In an alternate universe Hough remains intact and is Cleveland's best urban neighborhood (think a larger version of Buffalo's Elmwood Village).
September 28, 2024Sep 28 On 9/26/2024 at 3:23 PM, MyPhoneDead said: But didn't the Red Line have great ridership up until the 80's/90s? So you feel we still wouldn't have built around those lines? I honestly don't. Save for Little Italy/Cedar, the blue/green lines at and east of Shaker Square, Tower City, 25th, 117th, West Park, maybe a few others, the areas around the existing rapid lines are varying degrees of desolate. For instance the Tri-C stop: wtf is that? It feels like Chernobyl even though that should be a logical development area. Not a fun stroll to the school despite the stop's misleading name. If the city and developers couldn't develop around the exisiting stops when the city and metro population had a larger and less impoverished population, I don't see a subway, and with it its enormous building and maintenance costs, leading to mini downtowns or mixed commercial/residential density.
September 28, 2024Sep 28 24 minutes ago, TBideon said: I honestly don't. Save for Little Italy/Cedar, the blue/green lines at and east of Shaker Square, Tower City, 25th, 117th, West Park, maybe a few others, the areas around the existing rapid lines are varying degrees of desolate. For instance the Tri-C stop: wtf is that? It feels like Chernobyl even though that should be a logical development area. Not a fun stroll to the school despite the stop's misleading name. If the city and developers couldn't develop around the exisiting stops when the city and metro population had a larger and less impoverished population, I don't see a subway, and with it its enormous building and maintenance costs, leading to mini downtowns or mixed commercial/residential density. The difference is that the red line is an abandoned freight rail line that generally speaking doesn't run in the right locations. I think people on this forum generally tend to overstate the power/desirability of TOD. It isn't the magic pill we'd like it to be. If you put a somewhat high frequency transit stop in a not too desirable area, you have a not too desirable area with a transit stop. It's helpful, but it's just one thing. Most redline stops that have thrived have at least one other thing going for them (airport, WSM, little Italy, Case, etc). The same thing wouldn't happen with a Euclid subway because it doesn't have the same problem. It's running through the right area, public square, playhouse square, CSU, midtown, CC, Case, UC, and I'd probably end it at Little Italy. The worst stops would be the 2-3 in midtown, but that area is already starting to turn around with a fancy bus pretending to be rapid transit. (Plus it has real attractions apart from potential housing Children's museum, Dunham Tavern, several concert venues, etc). True rapid transit could give it that last little boost to get over the hump and really develop.
September 28, 2024Sep 28 1 hour ago, Ethan said: The same thing wouldn't happen with a Euclid subway because it doesn't have the same problem. It's running through the right area, public square, playhouse square, CSU, midtown, CC, Case, UC, and I'd probably end it at Little Italy. Bingo. So many US transit projects just find the cheapest RoW they can, and hope it becomes a development tool. When really those should be phase 2 projects or just a part of an overall larger project. The really great transit, ridership, and best overall bang for your buck investments comes from the highest use corridors and destinations that are already in place, and then any existing gaps between these places will just fill in without needing incentives. A red line spur through Lakewood out to the Columbia PnR, making the Healthline rail, a streetcar connecting Tremont/OHC/Hingetown/Detroit Shoreway/Edgewater. Projects like these would immediately have high ridership and be useful because they are already places people need to go, want to go, all necessary amenities, and already have densely populated neighborhoods.
September 29, 2024Sep 29 I think if a Euclid Avenue subway was built in the 30's or 40's it would have been successful, especially combined with holding off autocentic planning (i.e. Chester Ave). This corridor through Hough/Fairfax was very dense and would have been built when the area was still stable and largely middle class. If a Euclid Ave subway was built in the 70s we would be in a better position today but I doubt the condition of Hough/Fairfax would be all that different than what it currently is. The downward trajectory was already well on its way by then.
September 29, 2024Sep 29 That area was already dropping fast in the 30s and 40s, with most of the large homes being converted in the Great Depression to boarding houses. I think a subway would have had to have been built in the 1910s to truly capture and shape the still-strong growth forces that were in play right up until Oct. 28, 1929. But the Euclid Corridor still would have seen some decline, like the North Broad Street corridor in Philadelphia (which would be in even worse shape if not for Temple Univ). My dad, born in 1929, always used to say that Cleveland didn't start recovering from the Great Depression until the 1980s. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 29, 2024Sep 29 ^ Yes, the last time Hough was a high-end area was before the depression. Like I mentioned upthread, my grandparents lived in Hough in the 40's and had told me a good amount about living there at the time. In the 40's it housed a lot of people following WW2. There was a housing shortage at the time and my grandparents told me the landlords got away with renting substandard housing (this set the table for later changes). They lived in a subdivided house and later on in one of the brick apartment buildings, and said despite the unkempt housing stock it was safe with a lot of active businesses. They would walk to League Park, businesses on Hough Ave, and the larger entertainment/shopping district at 'Doan's Corners' as they called it. My grandmother didn't drive at that point in her life and would take the streetcar downtown for work (she complained it was slow). So from that along with what I've read it was gritty but stable in the 40's (probably like most older urban American neighborhoods at this time), it transitioned from an almost entirely white to majority black neighborhood in the 50s, and during the 60s/70s it was in a real downward spiral. So I agree 1910s/20s would have been the best time for a Euclid Ave subway, but I think it could have been well received through the 40s and perhaps changed the trajectory of the area. Edited September 29, 2024Sep 29 by Rustbelter
September 29, 2024Sep 29 1 hour ago, KJP said: That area was already dropping fast in the 30s and 40s, with most of the large homes being converted in the Great Depression to boarding houses. I think a subway would have had to have been built in the 1910s to truly capture and shape the still-strong growth forces that were in play right up until Oct. 28, 1929. But the Euclid Corridor still would have seen some decline, like the North Broad Street corridor in Philadelphia (which would be in even worse shape if not for Temple Univ). My dad, born in 1929, always used to say that Cleveland didn't start recovering from the Great Depression until the 1980s. Totally agree. There isn’t an American city today that could find the money to build anything as comprehensive as that proposal. I read something that if NYC had to build its subway system today it’d cost about $370 trillion… lol
September 29, 2024Sep 29 New rail costs well over a billion dollars per mile in NYC: this includes studies, property acquisition, permits, labor, OT, materials, air rights, graft, delays, etc. New rail is about 2/3 of that elsewhere. Unless technology evolves unthinkably - i.e. the failed hyperloops - we will never replicate that 75-year construction blitz, much of it predicated on extremely unpaid and dangerous conditions. It's too damn expensive today.
September 29, 2024Sep 29 Then there is the People Mover that Cleveland famously turned down after winning the competitive award thanks to the sstong Congressional delegation in place. I remember the Cleveland award was transferred to a welcoming Miami. Only in Cleveland. Who knows how it would have turned out for Cleveland but it definitely would have been intertesting to have. https://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/798
September 29, 2024Sep 29 50 minutes ago, TBideon said: New rail costs well over a billion dollars per mile in NYC: this includes studies, property acquisition, permits, labor, OT, materials, air rights, graft, delays, etc. New rail is about 2/3 of that elsewhere. Unless technology evolves unthinkably - i.e. the failed hyperloops - we will never replicate that 75-year construction blitz, much of it predicated on extremely unpaid and dangerous conditions. It's too damn expensive today. There's definitely truth to this, but much of this cost increase is self imposed. Environmental review for instance has gotten ridiculous sometimes costing millions of dollars just by itself. With political will and governmental competence much of this could be undone or at least simplified. This is actually one of the few issues I can relatively easily see getting bipartisan agreement on, so I don't think it's inconceivable. It would just take the right combination of gumption and competence.
September 29, 2024Sep 29 Some may think this is silly but l like to ride the people mover in Detroit for the tour of downtown. It makes a nice loop. It's elavated and it's cheap. And you can't get lost lol.
September 29, 2024Sep 29 On 9/28/2024 at 1:18 PM, Ethan said: I think people on this forum generally tend to overstate the power/desirability of TOD. It isn't the magic pill we'd like it to be. If you put a somewhat high frequency transit stop in a not too desirable area, you have a not too desirable area with a transit stop. It's helpful, but it's just one thing. Perhaps, but I always thought that the whole point of TOD was to create a PLACE that people would want to come to. It's a huge lift to accomplish, and just developing one or two sites generally won't do it. RTA has not be very good at it. Shaker did it well with Van Aken, but other examples of success (even in Shaker) are lacking.
September 29, 2024Sep 29 1 hour ago, Foraker said: Perhaps, but I always thought that the whole point of TOD was to create a PLACE that people would want to come to. It's a huge lift to accomplish, and just developing one or two sites generally won't do it. RTA has not be very good at it. Shaker did it well with Van Aken, but other examples of success (even in Shaker) are lacking. Basically agree, but Van Aken is actually a good example of the point I was making. On top of being a pretty nice area already, they added a significant attraction in the food hall. The transit stop is the cherry on top of what would be a very nice and successful development area without it. (It also isn't relying on transit for people to get there as it also has plenty of free parking). The transit connection in Van Aken isn't the star, it's an afterthought. I'm not saying that's good, just that the objective needs to be to make a nice urban node irrespective of whether or not it's well connected to transit. That the transit itself won't be enough to draw people or development is really my only point. But add a simple attraction or good anchor tenant and there's a chance it'll take off like hotcakes.
September 29, 2024Sep 29 48 minutes ago, Ethan said: Basically agree, but Van Aken is actually a good example of the point I was making. On top of being a pretty nice area already, they added a significant attraction in the food hall. The transit stop is the cherry on top of what would be a very nice and successful development area without it. (It also isn't relying on transit for people to get there as it also has plenty of free parking). The transit connection in Van Aken isn't the star, it's an afterthought. I'm not saying that's good, just that the objective needs to be to make a nice urban node irrespective of whether or not it's well connected to transit. That the transit itself won't be enough to draw people or development is really my only point. But add a simple attraction or good anchor tenant and there's a chance it'll take off like hotcakes. I said this in another thread but I don't think the Van Aken development will spur transit ridership until we unify the system completely, and add those "extra lines". Thus allowing people in places like East Cleveland who don't own vehicles to take a one train trip to Van Aken. I live in Glenville and would use it due to the hassle of taking the street and sitting in traffic. That extension is where we'll see the real increases because it connects people to areas that weren't connected before. Edit: I misspoke the only "extension" from Windermere would be from Stokes to the Muni Lot, that would be a waste of potential. Edited September 29, 2024Sep 29 by MyPhoneDead
September 30, 2024Sep 30 On 9/28/2024 at 11:24 AM, Rustbelter said: Yes. Imagine if a Euclid Avenue subway was built instead of ramming Chester Avenue right through Hough, subdividing the neighorbood. My grandparents lived in Hough in the 1940's and told me about demolishing houses & buildings and building Chester. In an alternate universe Hough remains intact and is Cleveland's best urban neighborhood (think a larger version of Buffalo's Elmwood Village). Where is the retail center? Elmwood Ave is thriving with miles of street activity. For those who have never been, check out streetview on Elmwood and keep clicking south all the way to downtown Buffalo (past Allen St) https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9226247,-78.877038,3a,75y,182.33h,88.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1syDIhI2UYYa3cW2in2NprAw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DyDIhI2UYYa3cW2in2NprAw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D232.93477%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkyNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
September 30, 2024Sep 30 16 hours ago, Ethan said: Basically agree, but Van Aken is actually a good example of the point I was making. On top of being a pretty nice area already, they added a significant attraction in the food hall. The transit stop is the cherry on top of what would be a very nice and successful development area without it. (It also isn't relying on transit for people to get there as it also has plenty of free parking). The transit connection in Van Aken isn't the star, it's an afterthought. I'm not saying that's good, just that the objective needs to be to make a nice urban node irrespective of whether or not it's well connected to transit. That the transit itself won't be enough to draw people or development is really my only point. But add a simple attraction or good anchor tenant and there's a chance it'll take off like hotcakes. Basically agree -- transit is not a draw, it's just a means to get to interesting places. I also think that Van Aken was not a destination before (strip mall with a big parking lot), but now it is an interesting Place that people want to be. It's the Place that is the draw, and transit makes it easier to get there without a car. We need more Places that people want to go to that are served by transit -- that doesn't mean we need more transit, it means we need more interesting Places near our existing transit lines. The more Places on our transit lines that draw people, the more useful those transit lines become. Unfortunately, there's nothing between Shaker and Van Aken, for example, and likely never will be. And the Green Line is worse.
September 30, 2024Sep 30 While transit may not be a development draw in Cleveland, public-sector development incentives connected to transit are. If you build near rail and bus rapid transit, not only can you tap transit-specific development incentives like those offered by the Federal Transit Administration and Federal Railroad Administration, your application ranking/score also goes up for other public incentives offered by the Ohio Department of Development, Cuyahoga County and city of Cleveland. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 30, 2024Sep 30 9 hours ago, Cleburger said: Where is the retail center? Elmwood Ave is thriving with miles of street activity. There is little evidence left today but Hough Ave was once a densely built up urban retail corridor.
September 30, 2024Sep 30 7 hours ago, Foraker said: We need more Places that people want to go to that are served by transit -- that doesn't mean we need more transit, it means we need more interesting Places near our existing transit lines. The more Places on our transit lines that draw people, the more useful those transit lines become. Cleveland also needs more population density (i.e. potential riders) and the current system serves a lot of areas where that isn't happening. If Cleveland turns the population corner I like PlanCleveland's ideas above for realistic changes in future decades. -Streetcars linking downtown, near west side, and university circle (BRT is half-baked, sorry) - Rail spur serving Lakewood (existing density) - downtown lightrail loop - TOD and new infill stations (Fulton Rd., W. 85th, Lakeview Rd.) along the red line as neighborhoods become more desirable. Edited September 30, 2024Sep 30 by Rustbelter
October 1, 2024Oct 1 Or our transit needs to better connect to the places we are already going to. I would love it if a train would connect from Shaker Square to Glenville or Van Aken to Collinwood. Too much of where are are and are going is disconnected, forcing us to drive to places more than ride.
October 1, 2024Oct 1 GCRTA isn't interested in doing that. But they are interested in moving your destinations next to the transit system. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 1, 2024Oct 1 1 hour ago, KJP said: GCRTA isn't interested in doing that. But they are interested in moving your destinations next to the transit system. Which is strange because with a unified system it shouldn't be hard to do. Instead of that "Purple line extension" to the Muni Lot, have that train leave stokes for Van Aken.
October 1, 2024Oct 1 2 hours ago, KJP said: GCRTA isn't interested in doing that. But they are interested in moving your destinations next to the transit system This makes sense. I think the ball is in bureaucrats' court to encourage development near transit, not the other way around. The time and investment required for land acquisition and infrastructure for a new train line is enormous. It's one reason BRT's are becoming more attractive (PS- maybe BRT is a good middle ground). However, real estate development around existing transit is so much more doable. It is much easier for bureaucrats to change a few laws that creates zoning and economic incentives for developing near existing transit, than for transit to try and move mountains to bring trains to the development. Curitiba in Brazil is an often cited model for this approach. They largely encouraged density on transit lines through zoning to great effect. This might not be the best website, but it will give you the general idea of what they did there and the outcomes. https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/brazil1203/zoning.html
October 1, 2024Oct 1 12 minutes ago, Dino said: The time and investment required for land acquisition and infrastructure for a new train line is enormous. It's one reason BRT's are becoming more attractive (PS- maybe BRT is a good middle ground). But sadly GCRTA isn't interested in developing new BRT either. If the county and municipalities and GCRTA would all work together, we could get that "Van Aken to Collinwood" BRT with a some financial incentives and hype to encourage development along the line and the system would improve dramatically. I think it could be done, with the right leadership and cooperation. Certainly pushing harder for more development around existing transit stations would be easier and there is no reason why GCRTA and local governments shouldn't be pushing harder for it.
October 1, 2024Oct 1 To the extent GCRTA tries to promote density around transit. I hope they recognize that buses are not equal to rail. While it's admirable to also promote density around popular, successful, high-frequency bus routes, this shouldn't be given anywhere near the same effort as promoting density near rail. A bus that runs every 15 minutes doesn't have the same TOD potential as a train that runs every 15 minutes. All of our trains (with the possible exception of the green line) should be running at more than 15 minute intervals, but that is another issue. 18 minutes ago, Foraker said: If the county and municipalities and GCRTA would all work together, we could get that "Van Aken to Collinwood" BRT with a some financial incentives and hype to encourage development along the line and the system would improve dramatically. Was this a proposal? When, and do you a link? I would think Lee is a better North South road for BRT, much more consistently urban form up and down the street, but I haven't studied it or anything like that.
October 1, 2024Oct 1 2 hours ago, Ethan said: Was this a proposal? When, and do you a link? I would think Lee is a better North South road for BRT, much more consistently urban form up and down the street, but I haven't studied it or anything like that. No, just my opinion that if RTA and governments worked together they could actually achieve something.
October 1, 2024Oct 1 3 hours ago, Foraker said: But sadly GCRTA isn't interested in developing new BRT either. If the county and municipalities and GCRTA would all work together, we could get that "Van Aken to Collinwood" BRT with a some financial incentives and hype to encourage development along the line and the system would improve dramatically. I think it could be done, with the right leadership and cooperation. Certainly pushing harder for more development around existing transit stations would be easier and there is no reason why GCRTA and local governments shouldn't be pushing harder for it. RTA is in the process of designing new BRT on West 25th right now. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
October 1, 2024Oct 1 22 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: RTA is in the process of designing new BRT on West 25th right now. Isn't this BRT Lite, similar to the Cleveland State Line? Also isn't it with traditional buses?
October 1, 2024Oct 1 I think there's supposed to be significant sections of dedicated bus lanes in there. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 1, 2024Oct 1 2 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: RTA is in the process of designing new BRT on West 25th right now. And are they aggressively working with Cleveland and the County to push for more TOD (marketing and financial incentives) around the stops? This is where cooperation could lead to more effective results.
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