5 minutes ago, Foraker said:

And are they aggressively working with Cleveland and the County to push for more TOD (marketing and financial incentives) around the stops?  This is where cooperation could lead to more effective results.

 

While I'm sure they could always be doing more, the below plan for the W25th and Lorain area seems to be movement in that direction. 

 

2 hours ago, Ethan said:

 

While I'm sure they could always be doing more, the below plan for the W25th and Lorain area seems to be movement in that direction. 

 

I need this plus @bdaily's tower idea over the red line stop and Greenway. 

 

Transit stops that are in a tunnel of buildings look so cool. 

^Apologies if this is the wrong thread but this RTA proposal resurfacing begs the question: any updates on phase 2/3 of INTRO?

5 hours ago, Ethan said:

 

While I'm sure they could always be doing more, the below plan for the W25th and Lorain area seems to be movement in that direction.

That's a great start (although the West Side Market was already a draw there) (and like Geowizical I look forward to further completion of that plan!) -- can we have more of this -- what's the plan for placemaking at W65th, E55th, etc.?  We need every station (or almost every station) to be a place that people want to go to. 

17 hours ago, Geowizical said:

^Apologies if this is the wrong thread but this RTA proposal resurfacing begs the question: any updates on phase 2/3 of INTRO?

 

Haven't heard a peep.

1 hour ago, ryanfrazier said:

This Cavs facility looks great, it'll breath life into an underutilized part of the river.  I have a question/comment about how it relates to the possibility of extending the CVSR to downtown.  Ken's article references the "former CSX railroad right of way which was abandoned for the riverfront development."  My understanding is that refers to the ROW that CVSR would need to get to Tower City, which is between the basketball facility site and Cleveland Thermal.  The plans show that ROW north of Eagle Ave being turned into a new roadway, although from what I can tell it's not specifically in the site of facility that just got approval.  All that is to say, the dream of connecting CVSR directly to Tower City is officially dead, right?  

 

 

This was an idea I had tossed around in the CVSR thread to get the Scenic Rail, commuter rail, and a CVNP Visitor Center/EPA museum in Tower City while also potentially helping to speeding up the timeline of some of the hotel and residential riverfront developments....

 

"This is why I really want some DMUs sharing the CVSR route, and obviously getting it up to Cleveland. Easy access to hike/bike/ski in a National Park would make downtown Cleveland and Akron much more attractive places to live. Have the commuter trains go down to Canton again like CVSR did and you also hit both Akron-Canton and Akron-Fulton airports, Pro Football HOF, and President McKinley Library/Memorial. You could even have a special stop at Everett or Ira Rd with shuttle busses to Blossom. Those trains would be packed by people wanting to avoid the traffic. It has uses for residents, workers, and tourists all year. It could start a nice little tourism boom for the region.

 

My dream is having the CVSR stop Downtown also be another Visitors Center and Canal Museum for the park. Ideally as an attraction to get more people in Tower City. You could even throw in some EPA history stuff. 

 

Looking at the riverfront renderings, it looks like those rail lines in front of the power plant will be the new Canal Rd. So that eliminates a convenient riverfront stop. And on another it had a potential CVSR stop along W3rd under the Carnagie and 90 bridges. That seems like an awful spot for it. 

 

Part of my thinking with combining this with commuter rail is potential outside help with capital costs for the best potential CVSR set up. Building a tunnel or trench starting near Central Furnace Dr going under the freight tracks, and coming out along the RTA tracks would get it into Tower City. It would need to go up about 40 feet, so it would likely get back to grade right around the bridges. Could CVSR afford that or get assitance on its own? I'm guessing absolutely not. But if it's part of a commuter line connecting metro areas of 2.2M, 700k, and 400k while also providing more equitable and frequent access to a national park? That is a project that could get outside funding."

Edited October 4, 2024Oct 4 by PlanCleveland

Lots of great ideas @PlanCleveland

2 hours ago, marty15 said:

Lots of great ideas @PlanCleveland

And how adding a rail/trolley museum. There was a group hoping to do that several years ago after Trolleyville USA closed, but they were unable to find a suitable location. I believe many of the trolley cars ended up in Lodi. 

34 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And how adding a rail/trolley museum. There was a group hoping to do that several years ago after Trolleyville USA closed, but they were unable to find a suitable location. I believe many of the trolley cars ended up in Lodi. 

Great idea.  It was a shame to lose the trolleys.  A museum would be another draw for foot traffic.  Maybe the Western Reserve Historical Society could sponsor a new location or outpost and combine with other area history in a new museum on trains, trolley, auto history (Crawford Auto/Aviation) and even add the Euclid Beach carousel, etc., now tucked away in their University Circle lobby. I believe there was talk at one point to display some classic Crawford cars displayed in the 925 Euclid (Centennial) lobby as potential draw to earlier rehab plans.

22 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And how adding a rail/trolley museum. There was a group hoping to do that several years ago after Trolleyville USA closed, but they were unable to find a suitable location. I believe many of the trolley cars ended up in Lodi. 

 

if anyone's interested the old 1893 Painesville train station is now a RR museum. They keep adding features. Something called the Collinwood 999, a replica model of a famous New York Central engine built and housed in Cleveland for decades is now in P'ville; as is an old 19th century wooden trolley that looks like it could collapse any second; and a rusted, graffiti-covered boxcar that for some reason unbeknownst to me seems to have great historical significance to rail aficionados 

 

 

On 9/27/2024 at 4:09 PM, KJP said:

 

@bdaily Ah, crap. I totally forgot about this and I can't go. Please let me know how it goes.

 

Here's an animated version of my PechaKucha presentation for anyone that may have wanted to catch the presentation but couldn't attend.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, eastvillagedon said:

 

if anyone's interested the old 1893 Painesville train station is now a RR museum. They keep adding features. Something called the Collinwood 999, a replica model of a famous New York Central engine built and housed in Cleveland for decades is now in P'ville; as is an old 19th century wooden trolley that looks like it could collapse any second; and a rusted, graffiti-covered boxcar that for some reason unbeknownst to me seems to have great historical significance to rail aficionados 

 

 

My grandma lived right down the street her entire life. When I was little my mom would tell us how they used to pick up their relatives visiting from Chicago here. Maybe one day that can happen again...

19 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

My grandma lived right down the street her entire life. When I was little my mom would tell us how they used to pick up their relatives visiting from Chicago here. Maybe one day that can happen again...

I grew up about a mile from the train station, essentially the same area. In the 60's passenger service was still running and recall my aunt's visits from Toronto (I believe she got free trips since her husband worked for Canadian National Railway. Otherwise she probably would have never come lol). The immediate neighborhood has of course changed a lot. It used to be very Italian  (the nearly 90-year old Silvestro's Depot Cafe remains). There are now several Mexican-owned businesses in easy walking distance of the station (at least 2 restaurants, 3 grocery stores, a bakery and a hair salon). 

On 10/5/2024 at 3:16 PM, bdaily said:

 

Here's an animated version of my PechaKucha presentation for anyone that may have wanted to catch the presentation but couldn't attend.

 

 

 

Fabulous presentation. Shows what improvements can be made with existing infrastructure. An observation deck on the lift bridge, is brilliant!

1 hour ago, Growth Mindset said:

Fabulous presentation. Shows what improvements can be made with existing infrastructure. An observation deck on the lift bridge, is brilliant!

Yes the lift bridge observation deck is an amazing yet simple  idea with greatest impact. Like the Hancock tilt out observation deck https://360chicago.com/tilt

 

1 hour ago, Growth Mindset said:

Fabulous presentation. Shows what improvements can be made with existing infrastructure. An observation deck on the lift bridge, is brilliant!

Agreed, this presentation should get much more love than it is. Great job! 

 

I like the observation deck idea as well. The bridge is probably beyond saving, but repurposing it into a static structure must be at least more feasible. Whether or not that moves it into the realm of the possible, I have no idea, but it's a good idea, and I hope it's studied. 

 

An infill station on Columbus peninsula is also a good idea, obviously as bit trickier than your average station, but many such buildings/stations already exist. A ~W44th infill would also be really useful and would play well with your Lorain Ave proposals. 

That presentation is exactly how to build a city. Everyone of those ideas would work. But then, we already have a bunch of great ideas in the pipeline - just need to create them. We may have to wait another couple of decades for climate change to funnel enough people and dollars to Cleveland before we see ideas like these begin to bear fruit.

Thanks @Growth Mindset, @Willo, @Ethan, @cadmen!

 

Hope you all will share this brainstorm of a presentation with your networks! Would love to keep the conversation going.

 

As far as a couple decades out - I think the energy & focus are already where they need to be with some of the ideas; the WSM lots are already targeted for development in the Phase 1 & Phase 2 reports.

 

The lift bridge freighter observation center could be a local resident & tourist attraction that generates revenue (thanks for the Tilt Observation Deck link @Willo) - especially with the increased Great Lakes cruise traffic.  Looking to a Port of Cleveland & City of Cleveland partnership for this one.

 

Developing atop any of the RTA stations might seem a stretch, but starting with one of the most trafficked RTA hubs W 25th & Lorain could be possible sooner than later. Thinking about the possibility of finding a chain hotelier that is attracted to direct airport access and visitors that are attracted to having a hotel directly above their stop!

 

END RANT 🤣 😂

2 hours ago, bdaily said:

Thanks @Growth Mindset, @Willo, @Ethan, @cadmen!

 

Hope you all will share this brainstorm of a presentation with your networks! Would love to keep the conversation going.

 

As far as a couple decades out - I think the energy & focus are already where they need to be with some of the ideas; the WSM lots are already targeted for development in the Phase 1 & Phase 2 reports.

 

The lift bridge freighter observation center could be a local resident & tourist attraction that generates revenue (thanks for the Tilt Observation Deck link @Willo) - especially with the increased Great Lakes cruise traffic.  Looking to a Port of Cleveland & City of Cleveland partnership for this one.

 

Developing atop any of the RTA stations might seem a stretch, but starting with one of the most trafficked RTA hubs W 25th & Lorain could be possible sooner than later. Thinking about the possibility of finding a chain hotelier that is attracted to direct airport access and visitors that are attracted to having a hotel directly above their stop!

 

END RANT 🤣 😂

Great dream come to life presentation. I wish it could all be developed ASAP especially the TOD concepts at W25 and also on Columbus Peninsula as envisioned. Until then we may get the first hotel a block away across 25th by Dan Whelan.  If only his former Harbor Bay Ventures would resurrect the next phases of Intro maybe a boutique hotel could work there also.  But with the news from C-bus it seems Harbor may only be able to focus on a High Street OSU project given the lending environement: https://columbusunderground.com/mass-timber-building-moving-forward-bier-stube-to-close-bw1/

 

 

Edited October 7, 2024Oct 7 by Willo

I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not, but it is about big dream/potential future projects. 

 

 

With all of the dramatic weather events so far in 2024 and more to come, maybe we need to start planning for more people moving north sooner than expected. A 2nd cat 5 going through Florida this year, this one directly through a major metro area on the coast. Parts of the Carolinas absolutely destroyed. Texas is either being hit by a hurricane or in a heat wave and drought. One of my coworkers in Houston said his electricity bill was $740 last month from the heat wave and humidity combo. 

 

If Cleveland continues to sit on its hands while many our peer cities are discussing major infrastructure and transit opportunities, we will once again lose out. Many of the things others are starting to talk about and/or are studying now haven't even been brought up as possibilities here in the last 10-20+ years. Leaders need to be at least starting to lay the groundwork for these potential multi-decade projects now. I know that the river and lake front stuff has started, but those will be just small pieces of the puzzle if the region starts to gain population. 

 

Unfortunately a decent portion of this lies with the state though. Our state leadership won't even attempt to help facilitate the transit we're seeing in Virginia and Central North Carolina right now. Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, PA, and New England all benefit from significantly more state public transit funding while we struggle to maintain what was built a long time ago. 

As long as rural Republicans maintain a stranglehold on state government Ohio's urban population will come up short. I have no idea if/when that changes.

 

That being said, reason tells us that climate change will drive a lot of people back north. I think it's already happening but for the moment l don't think the numbers are all that great. We'll probably have to wait until the 2030's before things really begin to change. And even then the first large waves will go to the northern cities that have the strongest economies and the best reputations. We'll be in competition with everyone. Prospective new citizens will also be giving us the eyeball test. That's why it's important to create great looking neighborhoods and beautiful parks. We really need to maximize our lake and river. We need to support Case in a way that helps it raise its profile. We need more police and safer streets. And we need local government employees to do their jobs.

 

People will be coming back north. There will be so many we'll get some by default. But if we really want to maximize the windfall we need to start preparing now. If we do the right things Cleveland will again take its place in the ranks of great American cities.

7 minutes ago, cadmen said:

As long as rural Republicans maintain a stranglehold on state government Ohio's urban population will come up short. I have no idea if/when that changes.

Not to get off topic but there is a measure on the ballot next month to help put a stop to the gerrymandering in Ohio. Hopefully that will help fix the state legislature. 

 

But that is more a political discussion. In terms of development I think Cleveland at least has a leg up in that we once were a much larger city so we do have some infrastructure already to placate a rising population. I mean just look at all the rehabs we have/had going on lately. Lots of cities need to build new buildings while we can reno old ones for better uses. 

 

While our transit systems may not be up to snuff, Cleveland's road network is certainly built for a LOT more people.  Who knows, maybe in a decade or two we will be reversing our current preference for road diets.

1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said:

I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not, but it is about big dream/potential future projects. 

 

 

With all of the dramatic weather events so far in 2024 and more to come, maybe we need to start planning for more people moving north sooner than expected. A 2nd cat 5 going through Florida this year, this one directly through a major metro area on the coast. Parts of the Carolinas absolutely destroyed. Texas is either being hit by a hurricane or in a heat wave and drought. One of my coworkers in Houston said his electricity bill was $740 last month from the heat wave and humidity combo. 

 

If Cleveland continues to sit on its hands while many our peer cities are discussing major infrastructure and transit opportunities, we will once again lose out. Many of the things others are starting to talk about and/or are studying now haven't even been brought up as possibilities here in the last 10-20+ years. Leaders need to be at least starting to lay the groundwork for these potential multi-decade projects now. I know that the river and lake front stuff has started, but those will be just small pieces of the puzzle if the region starts to gain population. 

 

Unfortunately a decent portion of this lies with the state though. Our state leadership won't even attempt to help facilitate the transit we're seeing in Virginia and Central North Carolina right now. Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, PA, and New England all benefit from significantly more state public transit funding while we struggle to maintain what was built a long time ago. 

Cleveland should absolutely try to build itself up as a city, but any climate based migration is a long way off, and won't be a surprise if/when it finally does come. As long as smart people are willing to bet multiple millions of dollars on buildings and infrastructure designed to last decades in sun belt cities, we are still a long time off from needing to worry about a large climate driven migration. Even when driven by humans, climate is still very slow moving. 

 

To avoid going too far off topic. I was thinking about the building over red line stations idea, and possible other contenders besides Ohio City. Little Italy seems like the only place with enough demand/high enough rents to justify it. It would be a very difficult build, but the benefit might be enough to offset the cost. (I suppose if not it could also just build over the nearby parking lot, but that's less fun). Truly a great location though, right on the edge of Little Italy and University Circle. 

46 minutes ago, dwolfi01 said:

Not to get off topic but there is a measure on the ballot next month to help put a stop to the gerrymandering in Ohio. Hopefully that will help fix the state legislature. 

 

But that is more a political discussion. In terms of development I think Cleveland at least has a leg up in that we once were a much larger city so we do have some infrastructure already to placate a rising population. I mean just look at all the rehabs we have/had going on lately. Lots of cities need to build new buildings while we can reno old ones for better uses. 

 

Can’t speak to the ballot issue as we will still have the same politicians who party on for decades Columbus and DC while reigning over our decline for 50 years. However you are correct we already have amenities that most are amazed by once they actually move here and that most cities do not have. So we need more glossy lipstick on this pig we lovingly call Cleveland. Start with the lakefront ASAP led by metro parks who seems the best public steward of our scare public dollars and actually get things done! If it takes another quarter sales tax to jump start and complete Burke to Gordon Park to the burgeoning riverfront we need to do it for eye candy that will draw more of the youth and newcomers. Columbus, Pittsburgh and even Detroit are killing it and have their attention right now. While we love mass transit and hope TODs continue on existing routes I can’t imagine earmarking any more scarce sales tax to RTA and expecting to get the same return as MetroParks does.

So, if the Browns leave the lakefront, here's a hypothetical project idea...

 

I would remove the upper deck of the existing stadium and rehab it into a smaller, 30-35,000 capacity, venue with a retractable roof.  This would be primarily for soccer, but would be able to host other events too.  Hotels, restaurants, and residential can still fill in the rest of the vacant land around it. Ideally, the stadium could be connected to the Convention Center too, maybe as part of the Landbridge.

 

Pros

It could host a Cleveland soccer team if we get one- maybe even gets us a shot at USL or MLS, in addition to NWSL

It could host college or high school games

It could become a concert alternative for shows bigger than RMFH can handle

If combined with the convention center, maybe it would help the convention center bring more events downtown

It could be used more than the existing stadium (45 events at 15,000 would surpass the Browns annual attendance)

 

Funding

The City has already secured $60M to remove the Shoreway and built a new RTA Station (more funding is very likely for future phases)

The City has secured $20M for the Landbridge, with more funding very likely, in my opinion

The City committed about $450M to the Browns, so let’s say they offer the same to this project

Cleveland Soccer Group has committed $193M for it’s new soccer stadium and training facility (in return for $90M in public funding)

The Metroparks already partnered with the Cleveland Soccer Group, so they could be involved in all the lakefront park space

That’s already $725M committed!

That's what l call making lemonade out of lemons. Let's do it!

Is the playing surface at the current stadium large enough for a soccer field?

29 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Is the playing surface at the current stadium large enough for a soccer field?

 

I've been to at least one soccer friendly there.  It looks like they've hosted a few other matches over the years, including CONCACAF Gold Cup group stage games in 2017, so I assume that means the field dimensions are up to spec.

^Yes.  They’ve played matches there before.

12 hours ago, MayDay said:

Any of our rendering experts want to use this for "what if" scenarios, feel free. 

Build futuristic entry point to new airport. Remember that idea?  We can extend the waterfront line to the off-shore airport. Then bulldoze the old airport and turn it into a regional waste water treatment center and garbage and recyling transfer station.

Might as well get some use out of it before we knock it down. Sigh!

12 hours ago, CleveFan said:

Great idea, @MayDay How bout a rendering of another  Gold Coast on that stadium site? 
  Let’s build something that changes the face of Cleveland! 

I doubt that would be possible unless Burke is closed. Besides, there are plenty of surface lots in the CBD for apartment towers. I would rather see recreational, entertainment and visitor attractions on the lakefront - amphitheater, aquarium, gardens, fountains, Ferris wheel, splash pad/ice rink, restaurants, souvenir shops, etc. 

 

Edited October 19, 2024Oct 19 by LibertyBlvd

I know it's not as simple as I'm about to make it seem but since the Browns balked at the City's proposal can Cleveland just use some of that funding to complete the vision for the Soccer stadium?.

 

Some of the money can be used to close the public financing gap and the rest (or some) can be used for hotels and residential to surround it.

 

That activates and extends downtown while securing our new futbol team.

Agreed about Burke - but that decision should still be made, IMO, first - in order to open up all development possibilities and then the city should be extremely proactive in creating incentives, wherever possible, to motivate developers. 
 

A non- population growth city like Cleveland should not take such a large area and create yet another park in an area that will soon have much park land adjacent to the city when you consider Edgewater, Irishtown and the forthcoming Cheers project. 
 

Let’s take a long view - what can the city be in 50 years? Not just in five.  A dynamic residential neighborhood including affordable housing, high rise residential and opportunities for home ownership should all be mixed in to our long range planning.  
 

Residential could and should lead the way in the visions for the stadium parcel.  Add in a bike path and/or a boardwalk segment for all to enjoy…..

I'd love it if they built a downtown concert hall for the Cleveland Orchestra and other musical groups. 

^  I assume you mean for occasional performances and not a permanent new concert hall for the orchestra. Music Hall is underutilized and could be used.  Masonic Hall is another underutilized venue which would be suitable, although it's not exactly downtown. I believe the orchestra played there a while back when Severance was being renovated.

 

An outdoor amphitheater for the orchestra and other performing arts would be nice, something a bit classier than Jacobs Pavilion.

 

Edited October 22, 2024Oct 22 by LibertyBlvd

How about a new pocket downtown area similar to Circle Square. If Burke is closing, they could build taller buildings without the current hight restrictions. The sky is the limit for the area. I think something special can be built there. 

Give me an OTR transplant, 3-5 story buildings, real complete streets pedestrian focused. no gaps between buildings various park sizes and trails. A lake front park for the entire length similar south beach but more thought out.  
 

tired of of the monolithic apartments buildings that can be seen anywhere, would like to see real character and smaller lot sizes return 

22 hours ago, jbee1982 said:

I'd love it if they built a downtown concert hall for the Cleveland Orchestra and other musical groups. 

Edited October 20, 2024Oct 20 by DO_Summers
This seems way off topic. Mods, please delete if desired.

23 hours ago, jbee1982 said:

I'd love it if they built a downtown concert hall for the Cleveland Orchestra and other musical groups. 

The orchestra owns Blossom and Severance Hall. They aren't moving to a new venue downtown.   Best case is you'd have to pay them to play there for a special event (IE 4th of July fireworks to music, etc). 

On 10/18/2024 at 1:21 PM, Foraker said:

 

Agreed.  And if Haslam wants a sea of parking, require him to cover the parking with solar panels.

Or do a "green lot" like Cincy

1 hour ago, Cleburger said:

The orchestra owns Blossom and Severance Hall. They aren't moving to a new venue downtown.   Best case is you'd have to pay them to play there for a special event (IE 4th of July fireworks to music, etc). 

How about a better concert shell in downtown for when they do play?

The drive to Blossom (and trying to get out of Blossom afterward, and the lack of efficient public transit there and back) is pretty good persuasion for me to rarely go to Blossom...

I have always believed that great spaces should be public places. And for over 90 years the lake front  has been a place that we have gone to celebrate together, to me it should remain that way. The last thing I want to happen is for that space to become filled with NRP type residences. A half dozen or so stick built overpriced apartment units for the select few. So if not a stadium then something just as significant. It should be a draw much like the Rock Hall and the Science Center. 

A great aquarium would be awesome one that is  equal in size to the Shed or the one in Georgia. Or a Sphere type complex that is  already planning a second location. Why not Cleveland? And if Burke is closed then how about a smaller version of CNN Tower or the Space Needle along with an entertainment complex, maybe 4-500 ft tall. And the spaces closest to the water should be a Great Park with access to the water with boat docks, year round recreation, Solstice type steps.

This is a special space lets not screw this up with a bunch of 5/2 apartments and retail that will close after a year. 

10 hours ago, Foraker said:

How about a better concert shell in downtown for when they do play?

The drive to Blossom (and trying to get out of Blossom afterward, and the lack of efficient public transit there and back) is pretty good persuasion for me to rarely go to Blossom...

 

The orchestra has been there for over 50 years and has a healthy season ticket holder base.   They also have a very reliable tenant in Live Nation booking the pop/rock shows.    I don't think they are worried about the "I don't go to Blossom" crowd. 

27 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

 

The orchestra has been there for over 50 years and has a healthy season ticket holder base.   They also have a very reliable tenant in Live Nation booking the pop/rock shows.    I don't think they are worried about the "I don't go to Blossom" crowd. 

 

There's probably more "I don't go to into the city" people in the Blossom crowd (some of whom mean Akron by that)  than "I don't go to Blossom" people in the Severance crowd.   The Orchestra strikes a nice balance.  

 

Not everything needs to be downtown.

With all the talk of closing Burke, I wanted to get a better sense of the scale.  The land at Burke is the equivalent of the land downtown between Lakeside and Superior, from the river to the Innerbelt.  It is massive.  Some also point to Meigs Field in Chicago as an example of what should be done with Burke.  Burke is almost 4 times as big as Meigs Field.

11 minutes ago, Dino said:

With all the talk of closing Burke, I wanted to get a better sense of the scale.  The land at Burke is the equivalent of the land downtown between Lakeside and Superior, from the river to the Innerbelt.  It is massive.  Some also point to Meigs Field in Chicago as an example of what should be done with Burke.  Burke is almost 4 times as big as Meigs Field.

 

Meigs was only 75 acres.  So Burke is 6x the size of Meigs.  

 

 

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

 

There's probably more "I don't go to into the city" people in the Blossom crowd (some of whom mean Akron by that)  than "I don't go to Blossom" people in the Severance crowd.   The Orchestra strikes a nice balance.  

 

Not everything needs to be downtown.

But it sure would be nice to take a train to Blossom and avoid the traffic hassle (and it would lessen the traffic for those who do drive).

1 minute ago, Foraker said:

But it sure would be nice to take a train to Blossom and avoid the traffic hassle (and it would lessen the traffic for those who do drive).

 

Oh we agree on that one.