Interesting discussion from the Brook Park mayor and city council about two months ago, per meeting minutes (there's a bit more that I didn't screenshot).  I thought the discussions with Orchard Park, NY's mayor and Foxboro's mayor and how much money they're losing on gamedays was especially interesting.

 

 

 

As someone who is a proto climate refugee (just trying to get a jump on the exodus from New Orleans over the next 20 years) moving to cleveland in a week, I think it's important to not only look at what's good for the city now, but what's best for the city in 10-20 years while a new stadium is still in its prime operating years. I do think the Great Lakes are going to see a large population influx over the next two decades. The problem is the Haslems are old enough where they are likely much less worried about Cleveland 2045 than they are about their bank account in 5 years. But which stadium location is best if Cleveland and the metro sees a large influx of people, and is done the right way?

 

I can see some pros for the Brook Park site: If the city/county forces the Haslems to connect the Brook Park stadium district to the airport and an improved rapid station (perhaps housed inside the first floor of a hotel/apartment building containing ground floor retail) with lots of amenities accessible never leaving a covered area, that's a solid area to see rapid population gain with more apartment towers. While the lakefront site likely wont see the loss of the Muni lots, because of the requirement for parking spaces within a certain distance to the stadium, the cost of building new garages, and the uproar from suburbanites losing tailgating spaces that arent located inside of "the city" 

 

There are also some pros for the current site: Aside from the cheaper cost, an open lakefront stadium can be a majestic thing, if done right. The parking lots would definitely need to be redeveloped in line with the city's current plan (despite the obstacles I mentioned above). Beef up the rapid and waterfront line, and get the land bridge and shoreway projects done. And the "tradition" of old school football played in the elements is maintained, which, coming from New Orleans, I know that a lot about what makes a team successful is maintaining the cultural and historical ties to the region that supports it. This is also the cheaper option that could extend the the life of the stadium for another 15-ish years, by which point if my prediction of a large population influx happens, *then* you have more information about how economically and culturally viable building a new stadium in a new location will be. Spend less money now so you can make a better decision for the future, instead of spending a ton of money now on plans that will be harder to modify to accommodate a growing metro area.

 

tl;dr: I’d probably upgrade the lakefront stadium, proceed with the public lakefront renovations, start the process to close Burke, and then in 10-15 years, reassess population trends to see if a large “football city” in brook park is more feasible. 

Edited August 24, 2024Aug 24 by daybreaker

1 hour ago, acd said:

Interesting discussion from the Brook Park mayor and city council about two months ago, per meeting minutes (there's a bit more that I didn't screenshot).  I thought the discussions with Orchard Park, NY's mayor and Foxboro's mayor and how much money they're losing on gamedays was especially interesting.

 

Thanks for this. BP poaching from CLE aside he sounds like a good mayor/leader with questions and thoughts like this.

Welcome to Cleveland @daybreaker!

12 hours ago, KJP said:

Welcome to Cleveland @daybreaker!

Thanks! Been following your blog for about 2 years and it was actually a big help in choosing to move here. I get the rate of construction and improvement can feel frustrating at times but compared to new orleans yall are moving at light speed. Lol. 

3 hours ago, daybreaker said:

Thanks! Been following your blog for about 2 years and it was actually a big help in choosing to move here. I get the rate of construction and improvement can feel frustrating at times but compared to new orleans yall are moving at light speed. Lol. 

 

That's awesome. Thanks for telling me that! 

Here we go brownies! Let’s meet down by the lake oh sorry I meant airport too soon? 🤣 

Which airport? Seems like this team is only allowed to play near one.

Discussion on wosu about public spending and benefits on browns /national new stadiums.. 

 

https://www.wosu.org/show/all-sides/2024-08-28/cleveland-browns-aim-for-new-stadium-in-brook-park-with-public-fundingnothing new, but an interesting show...

Wherein the author suggests there is no evidence while providing no evidence.

 

https://www.fieldofschemes.com/2024/10/15/21934/blogger-again-claims-browns-owners-want-brook-park-dome-just-as-soon-as-they-get-1-2b-in-public-cash/

 

 

4 hours ago, math said:

Wherein the author suggests there is no evidence while providing no evidence.

 

https://www.fieldofschemes.com/2024/10/15/21934/blogger-again-claims-browns-owners-want-brook-park-dome-just-as-soon-as-they-get-1-2b-in-public-cash/

 

 

 

Huh, I seemed to recall quoting and naming Council President Griffin...

1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

Huh, I seemed to recall quoting and naming Council President Griffin...

Regardless it's frankly amusing how many people don't understand the basic consequences as a journalist if you were to name your sources. Yea, that is definitely a healthy relationship between the source and writer. 

Haslam has extra money to invest. 

Quote

In a recent announcement, Cleveland Browns owner Jimmy Haslam's family office, HF Capital LLC, pledged $725 million toward an initiative focused on decarbonizing heavy industry.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/billionaire-cleveland-browns-owner-makes-104503463.html

https://fox8.com/news/cleveland-browns-announce-move-to-brook-park-i-team/

I'm told tomorrow's The Big day

nick castle says to expect news from this city about it

Yup, announcement coming shortly. Freaking Haslam...

Can we expect to hear about money (i.e. public contributions) in this announcement? 

Bibb is getting out in front of it. Press conference today at 2:30 pm. Most TV stations will carry it live on TV or stream it online.

7 minutes ago, Ethan said:

Can we expect to hear about money (i.e. public contributions) in this announcement? 

Better not be any public funding.

Press Conference at 2:30 https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/browns/cleveland-stadium-negotiations-brook-park-dome-haslam-sports-group-mayor-justin-bibb-huntington-bank-field-lake-erie-downtown/95-210d3157-d524-4d2d-852e-06255fbdec25

Just now, LibertyBlvd said:

Better not be any public funding.

 

The city of Brook Park is going to TIF the heck out of it, per request.

it's official per ch 19 https://www.cleveland19.com/2024/10/17/its-official-cleveland-browns-moving-brook-park/

We better get a Superbowl out of this 😑

Maybe after we're all dead.

Oh I do think we'll get a Super Bowl. I don't expect to see the Browns in it, though.

If what Bibb is saying is true, and the Haslams pivoted after years of negotiations, that's a bit f'd

'Welcome to Brookpark and the "Pilot Flying J Muni Lot" experience, or "The Pit" sponsored by your friends at First Energy.'

Bibb just went nuclear on Haslam. Obviously, we're only getting the city's side of this but it doesn't come as surprise that Haslam misled, lied, and wasted time...

1 minute ago, w28th said:

'Welcome to Brookpark and the "Pilot Flying J Muni Lot" experience, or "The Pit" sponsored by your friends at First Energy.'

Better than the "DeShaun Watson Experience" so far -- horribly expensive and outright embarrassing.

2 minutes ago, Foraker said:

Better than the "DeShaun Watson Experience" so far -- horribly expensive and outright embarrassing.

 

It'll be horribly expensive, TBD on whether its embarrassing...

Hey @KJP fantastic reporting as always. 

Kudos to Bibb. I think he did a great job presenting his perspective. Haslam is approaching Modell in terms of public sentiment, from my vantage point. 

People crapping on Haslam for making a $2.5B investment 1/2 a mile from Cleveland proper?   Seriously?    The city has been aware of the desire for a stadium for 7 years, so to not lay any blame at the public leadership is a big mistake, IMO.   Clearly this whole topic has various shades of gray, but to compare Haslam to Model is completely misguided and unjust.   

 

To each there own.

 

Downvote this all you want, but caling a spade a spade here.

6 minutes ago, goozer said:

People crapping on Haslam for making a $2.5B investment 1/2 a mile from Cleveland proper?   Seriously?    The city has been aware of the desire for a stadium for 7 years, so to not lay any blame at the public leadership is a big mistake, IMO.   Clearly this whole topic has various shades of gray, but to compare Haslam to Model is completely misguided and unjust.   

 

To each there own.

 

Downvote this all you want, but caling a spade a spade here.

$2B of whose money though???

 

The Browns have not stated how this will be paid for. TIFs may work to an extent, but $2B for the stadium and what about the hundreds of millions in road improvements that will be needed to support this that the Browns will for sure be looking to the public to fund?

 

Chris Ronayne said it best, it does not make sense to build expensive duplicative infrastructure like this when it already exists in our slow growing region.

As I’ve said before. Bibb needs to have the demo crew on hand to go an hour after the last game. Let Jimmy do an Oakland A’s for a few years. 

 

52 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

We better get a Superbowl out of this 😑

Cant wait for all the people flying in for this supposed Superbowl to realize they are going to have to fly in, rent a car/uber to drive past the stadium to downtown because that's where all the hotels are, to then have to drive back to the stadium for the game and then back downtown for any nightlife/food scene and their hotel. Sounds like a wonderful fan experience...

^ And probably in a snow storm too.  Of course if the NFL keeps extending the season, Super Bowls might not be played until April.

 

Edited October 17, 2024Oct 17 by LibertyBlvd

Just now, goozer said:

People crapping on Haslam for making a $2.5B investment 1/2 a mile from Cleveland proper?   Seriously?    The city has been aware of the desire for a stadium for 7 years, so to not lay any blame at the public leadership is a big mistake, IMO.   Clearly this whole topic has various shades of gray, but to compare Haslam to Model is completely misguided and unjust.   

 

To each there own.

 

Downvote this all you want, but caling a spade a spade here.

 

To be fair, it's not really a $2.5 billion investment by Haslam that's being contemplated. It's a $1.2 billion investment by Haslam, plus about $1.2 billion of Ohio taxpayer money, plus about $1.2 billion in money from whatever investors are going to build out the ballpark village.

 

I agree that the Browns moving to Brookpark is not likely to be a huge economic blow for the city, and what Haslam is doing is not nearly the same as what Model did.

 

But I completely understand why Bibb is taking the position he is, and I think it's very smart. The city made a very reasonable offer, which Haslam rejected, and Bibb is obviously not pulling punches but is also leaving the door open. Bibb is coming out with all of this two hours before the Guardians play in front of a national audience, and I think there's a good chance this gets talked about more as a result. Haslam needs a bunch of money from other people to get a new stadium done. So to the extent Bibb can add credence to the (very justified) notion that Jimmy H is a less-than-fully-honest counterparty for a transaction, that puts a lot of pressure on the Browns and therefore increases the chance that the Brookpark deal falls apart and the Browns have to stay in Cleveland. That's clearly what Bibb wants, and I'm not sure it will happen in any event, but this seems like the approach most likely to get it.

11 minutes ago, goozer said:

People crapping on Haslam for making a $2.5B investment 1/2 a mile from Cleveland proper?   Seriously?    The city has been aware of the desire for a stadium for 7 years, so to not lay any blame at the public leadership is a big mistake, IMO.   Clearly this whole topic has various shades of gray, but to compare Haslam to Model is completely misguided and unjust.   

 

To each there own.

 

Downvote this all you want, but caling a spade a spade here.

 

You are giving Haslam an incredible amount of leeway. Over the last 4 years, their public position has been that they wanted to renovate the current stadium and develop around the lakefront. Bibb is right, they changed their minds and that only came to light because of @KJP. I don't know what is going on in the background, but this process was never transparent to taxpayers. I'm giving credit to Bibb and Ronanye, who ar are not perfect, for at least prioritizing the public. 

 

12 minutes ago, goozer said:

People crapping on Haslam for making a $2.5B investment 1/2 a mile from Cleveland proper?   Seriously?    The city has been aware of the desire for a stadium for 7 years, so to not lay any blame at the public leadership is a big mistake, IMO.   Clearly this whole topic has various shades of gray, but to compare Haslam to Model is completely misguided and unjust.   

 

To each there own.

 

Downvote this all you want, but caling a spade a spade here.

Halslams have only committed $1.2B from what I have read. They are then asking for $1.2B from the public for the stadium and another $1.2B from some other private source other than themselves for the surrounding development that may or may not happen. Of which they have $0 in public committed from anyone at the moment except Cleveland which I am sure is now off the table.

57 minutes ago, Geowizical said:

We better get a Superbowl out of this 😑

I don't see it happening unless Jimmy adds about 10,000 hotel rooms to his new truck stop lifestyle center in Brookpark. 

How does Brook Park have any money to fund any TIF or TOD projects to and from airport to stadium to downtown? This will ruin them unless the county and state steps in, or the Haz-beens pay for it all. The browns already have the land, but when they start releasing the billets, Brook Park may want to take a look in the mirror and not only think about their money's worth, but maybe more about what they're taking away.

Edited October 17, 2024Oct 17 by tastybunns

8 minutes ago, goozer said:

People crapping on Haslam for making a $2.5B investment 1/2 a mile from Cleveland proper?   Seriously?    The city has been aware of the desire for a stadium for 7 years, so to not lay any blame at the public leadership is a big mistake, IMO.   Clearly this whole topic has various shades of gray, but to compare Haslam to Model is completely misguided and unjust.   

 

To each there own.

 

Downvote this all you want, but caling a spade a spade here.

 

Except Haslam isn't making a $2.5B investment.

The Haslams and the Browns can do whatever they like, I'm not particularly upset about this decision. (I think it's stupid, but time will tell.) 

 

But I will add my name to the list of "let's not spend any public money so that this billionaire can get richer" -- let him build his own stadium and attract his own investors.  And if he's unhappy about traffic jams to get into his playground, he can pay RTA to add a station and pay for any highway improvements he wants.

Not long now until "The Cleveland Browns/Haslam Sports Group are delighted to welcome KeyBank, Cliffs etc etc as it's premier anchor office tenant to Brook Park".

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, tastybunns said:

How does Brook Park have any money to fund any TIF or TOD projects to and from airport to stadium to downtown? This will ruin them unless the county and state steps in, or the Haz-beens pay for it all. The browns already have the land, but when they start releasing the billets, Brook Park may want to take a look in the mirror and not only think about their money's worth, but maybe more about what they're taking away.

I would want to see numbers of how much Haslam can theoretically get from a TIF district in Brook Park. That's basically county money, not city money. Cleveland already has a TIF District that includes the area the stadium occupies, and it's pretty clear they are NOT willing to just write a blank check giving Haslam all the money he wants from the TIF district.

 

The deadline to adopt a TIF ordinance is the end of this year.

 

I haven't looked at the law in a while and don't remember exactly how it works, but could Brook Park theoretically just designate its entire area as a TIF district and give all the money (again, it's mostly county money) to the Haslams? If so, there could be a lot of money at play here.

I wonder if Haslam already has a closed door agreement with DeWine for the State money. And if so, how much? If Haslam is not going to pay for it all he's going to need some other entities to kick in an awful lot of cash. He will need BILLION'S to complete the job. Money for a dome, money for the ballpark village and money for the roadways around everything. He could just build the dome/parking lots and sh*tcan the village to save money but he's still going to need a fortune. 

 

If he ends up footing most of the bill himself at least WE won't be on the hook, so there's that. This is going to be interesting.

This isn't the end of the world, and it won't be a death blow to downtown in my opinion.  Only about a third of NFL stadiums are in a downtown, and about a third of NFL stadiums are not in the City proper.  This isn't unusual at all.  I respect the Mayor for making a modest and reasonable proposal without giving away too much.  I also respect Ronayne for backing up the Mayor instead of undercutting him.  It would have been easy for a young Mayor to cave on an issue this high profile, and it would have been easy for a newer County Exec. to swoop in, promise a bunch of money, and play the hero.  But they both showed some back bone.  Now that the Browns made their decision I hope Bibb/Ronayne don't panic and just let this play out.  

So how long until haslam closes the deal on the property or did that already happen with todays announcement?