He won't make us do s**t. The man has no leverage with city, county or state.

 

If I'm Bibb, stop returning phone calls or emails. What's done is done unless the grifter wants to play at Browns stadium post '28. Jimmy can call Parma or Triv or the KKK or Putin if he needs cash.

 

If I'm Ronayne, only respond with an incredibly favorable agreement that includes profit-sharing on ALL games, events, hotels, restaurants, and retail that take place in Jimmyworld. In perpetuity. No more goddamm local cannibalizing. 

 

If I'm DeWine, focus on the Bengals and MAGA's eventual revenge against mildly less corrupted Republicans. Leave NE Ohio alone. 

 

Also, hope to see Richardson leave early and let Flacco play the majority of the game.

 

And good to see Baker on Monday night against the s-hitbirds.

Edited October 20, 2024Oct 20 by TBideon

8 minutes ago, TBideon said:

He won't make us do s**t. The man has no leverage with city, county or state.

 

If I'm Bibb, stop returning phone calls or emails. What's done is done unless the grifter wants to play at Browns stadium post '28. Jimmy can call Parma or Triv or the KKK or Putin if he needs cash.

 

If I'm Ronayne, only respond with an incredibly favorable agreement that includes profit-sharing on ALL games, events, hotels, restaurants, and retail that take place in Jimmyworld. In perpetuity. No more goddamm local cannibalizing. 

 

If I'm DeWine, focus on the Bengals and MAGA's eventual revenge against mildly less corrupted Republicans. Leave NE Ohio alone. 

 

Also, hope to see Richardson leave early and let Flacco play the majority of the game.

 

And good to see Baker on Monday night against the s-hitbirds.

I hope Ronayne has the foresight of what Jimmy's playground will do to the events held at RMHS and subsequent E4 patrons. The foresight that so many people I read and listen to seem to lack when it comes to "8 games will not kill downtown", completely ignoring Jimmy's ambition to make his dome open 365 days a year. That inevitably means poaching even more events and business from downtown/cleveland proper. I hope Ronayne realizes this and gives Jimmy the finger this minute Jimmy asks for a handout. 

I still think this is a ploy to move them to a different state (or country?). 

 

The Haslems do not have public funding, and it's unclear if they can privately finance. 

 

They do not own the Brookpark property. Primacy Development has 16 months to buy the property. The existing notice of a purchase agreement isn't s**t.

 

They do not have a master plan on highway and utility improvements - and certainly no federal/state/local permits, permissions, commitments, and time frames. 

 

They have a furious base, a furious city, a county of mixed opinion, and an ambivalent state.

 

And they need to play somewhere in September 2029. That isn't that far away.

^ l don't think the idea of moving is unlikely at all. It's a simple scenario. 

 

Haslam turns down city help for a re-furbished stadium on the lakefront. Says he needs to build a palace no one but him wants. Can't get much financial help from Ohio politicians. Then says he tried to give us a world class experience but since we're not buying in he has "No choice" but to move the team. 

 

If you're paying the slightest bit of  attention you'll note that not only is Jimmy not a Clevelander, he's not a yankee either. He can move his team to a sun belt city or even help the NFL with a team in one of those cool outside of America cities they keep talking about. 

I don't think there's a realistic chance of him moving the team. But if he does, the Browns fans worldwide are going to declare all out war vs. him and the NFL. 

I think that began today. Garrett and Winston's tone deaf and ignorant reactions will have consequences. 

2 hours ago, cadmen said:

^ l don't think the idea of moving is unlikely at all. It's a simple scenario. 

 

Haslam turns down city help for a re-furbished stadium on the lakefront. Says he needs to build a palace no one but him wants. Can't get much financial help from Ohio politicians. Then says he tried to give us a world class experience but since we're not buying in he has "No choice" but to move the team. 

 

If you're paying the slightest bit of  attention you'll note that not only is Jimmy not a Clevelander, he's not a yankee either. He can move his team to a sun belt city or even help the NFL with a team in one of those cool outside of America cities they keep talking about. 

Yup - can't rule it out.  Given Jimmy and Dee's ages I don't think their adult children and the grandchildren have formed any long-term bonds or obligation to northern Ohio.  At least Al Lerner acted on an obligation to repent and brought us a new team after the blowback for facilitating the BWI tarmac coup between financially desperate Art and the MD Guv dangling the fat check giving Art instant debt breathing room (as we learned later that $50 million check was not enough). If the scene plays out as you lay out - and hopefully there is a another positve outcome not presented yet that will emerge to save our team - it could be C-Bus or another bigger growing U.S. market or international like Toronto and others often mentioned.  The good ole boy NFL will play along like last time - and as with St Louis and Oakland - and fellate us again with promise of a future expansion team and force us to wait like cucks clutching our name, traditions and colors. We have to admit we are in an abusive relationship with HSG and the NFL and say enough is enough.

On 8/23/2024 at 2:35 PM, acd said:

Interesting discussion from the Brook Park mayor and city council about two months ago, per meeting minutes (there's a bit more that I didn't screenshot).  I thought the discussions with Orchard Park, NY's mayor and Foxboro's mayor and how much money they're losing on gamedays was especially interesting.

 

 

 

Brook Park's mayor may not want the stadium.  Then what?

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

Brook Park's mayor may not want the stadium.  Then what?

Then the Browns can build in Medina County. 

7 hours ago, Foraker said:

Brook Park's mayor may not want the stadium.  Then what?

 

He may be hesitant, but I think they're going to accept having the stadium.  Here are his comments from the 8/20 council meeting:

 

 

50 events?  Yeah, right.

2 hours ago, acd said:

 

He may be hesitant, but I think they're going to accept having the stadium.  Here are his comments from the 8/20 council meeting:

 

 

 

It wouldn't take long for the residents to figure out they can ask $60 for parking in their front lawn and still save fans money.   Tell the mayor to visit Orchard Park NY and see how it works there.  

 

 

Ironically, what chances there are for the city to keep the games downtown may be thanks to SW putting the tech center in Brecksville.    Otherwise they would likely have pursued it aggressively.

4 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

Ironically, what chances there are for the city to keep the games downtown may be thanks to SW putting the tech center in Brecksville.    Otherwise they would likely have pursued it aggressively.

I question that.  I don't think your average Brecksville resident would want the traffic headaches as well as other game day issues.

Edited October 21, 2024Oct 21 by Htsguy

27 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I question that.  I don't think your average Brecksville resident would want the traffic headaches as well as other game day issues.

 

The site is well south of the center of Brecksville and right by the 77-80 interchange.   If you're going to put something like that in the sprawlburbs, it's close to an ideal location.

 

From what I've heard in the area, Brecksville city officials were pretty PO when the hospital closed and (mostly incorrectly) blamed the city as much as the feds.   That's a big part of why they aggresively pursued SW, and not just the tech center.   With that site still sitting empty, the Browns would have been a more prestigious catch.

27 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

Ironically, what chances there are for the city to keep the games downtown may be thanks to SW putting the tech center in Brecksville.    Otherwise they would likely have pursued it aggressively.

I suppose, that would've been a pretty decent location for them. Similar acreage, and also near a two highway intersection like Brook Park. Very similar spot as the old Richfield Coliseum. 

 

Cartoon editorial on Cleveland.com on the subject. Not endorsing the opinion, just sharing since it's relevant. 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/darcy/2024/10/browns-dome-developments-darcy-cartoon.html

7 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

The site is well south of the center of Brecksville and right by the 77-80 interchange.   If you're going to put something like that in the sprawlburbs, it's close to an ideal location.

 

From what I've heard in the area, Brecksville city officials were pretty PO when the hospital closed and (mostly incorrectly) blamed the city as much as the feds.   That's a big part of why they aggresively pursued SW, and not just the tech center.   With that site still sitting empty, the Browns would have been a more prestigious catch.

You would get tons of people getting off 77 on the exit at the north end of the city (cannot recall the name) and then driving down 21 right through the heart of the city.

LOL, is the old Richfield Coliseum land still vacant?

3 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said:

LOL, is the old Richfield Coliseum land still vacant?

Depends on what you mean by vacant, but in case this is a real question, it's now National Park System land, so it's permanently off the table. 

2 hours ago, X said:

50 events?  Yeah, right.

It's so funny to me how the Browns and their talking heads in the news/radio keep pushing this point. Go look at the event schedule for US Bank stadium in Minneapolis, a Downtown stadium in a metro area with 75% more people than the Cleveland metro. 

 

Outside of Vikings games, here are the events on the calendar through the end of September 2025 when the NFL season starts up again....

 

-the high school soccer and football state championship game and semi finals. Both of which would not likely be played in Cleveland for the state of Ohio. The current stadium has hosted many high school football games, and could easily host other high school sports.  

 

-a monster truck Monster Jam event at the end of February. While not in February, our current stadium has hosted these events before. 

 

-a TBD Concacaf Gold Cup game next summer, our current stadium has hosted similar events. 

 

 

So say they can somehow beat a Downtown stadium in much larger metro area right next to the state capital and even get 1 event in the stadium per month. Plus 9 or 10 Browns games including the preseason, that's 21 or 22 events a year. Where are these other 30 events going to come from? Maybe a 5 or 6 music acts that can justify a space that large, but those already play in the current stadium. MAYBE we get 1 superbowl or final 4. Likely no shot at multiple of either. Indy has the Big 10 championship game locked down for a while, and even if they decide to move it around, we will be competing with a new Bears stadium, Detroit, Minneapolis, Indy, and now even LA, NYC/Jersey/Philly, and Seattle to host that game maybe once per decade. And all of those stadiums are located closer to hotels and other amenities than the Brook Park stadium will be. 

 

 

The region is gaining almost no economic or tourist growth from this, and including the highway and infrastructure upgrades will cost taxpayers at least $1.5 billion. The only change is that Jimmy gets all of the parking revenue. 

Kucinich call for legal action.  https://fox8.com/news/kucinich-calls-for-legal-action-against-browns-over-move-i-team/

In one of the cleveland historical groups that's featured a lot of 'go tribe/go indians/wahoo memes' lately, a lot of people that probably haven't stepped in the city in 40 years are clamoring on about how unsafe downtown is (you'll get held at gunpoint leaving the game!!!), how expensive current parking is (assuming? jimmy will allow people to park for free), how the cavs are going to eventually move out to BP (with no regard to any of the recent developments), how the new stadium is going to bring conventions (huh?), how it's only ten feet from the city line, etc. etc.

 

Someone out there is cooking up a lot of good lies, kudos to getting people to believe them. 

Cleveland‘s Mayor estimates the Browns’ decision to build a new stadium could cost the downtown $30 million every year

I think it's only a matter of time before the Austin, San Antonio, OKC, SLC insert random city relocation threats emerge.

 

Maybe I'm blinkered since they gave us a team back before but I think the NFL does value the NEO market and the passion of the fanbase. I suspect markets like St. Louis where the NFL played second fiddle to baseball and Oakland where the stadium was a toilet and they were basically a secondary tenant they were happy to leave, but I just don't think the NFL would happily let Jimmy move out of here. Call it a gut feeling.  

2 minutes ago, snakebite said:

I think it's only a matter of time before the Austin, San Antonio, OKC, SLC insert random city relocation threats emerge.

 

Maybe I'm blinkered since they gave us a team back before but I think the NFL does value the NEO market and the passion of the fanbase. I suspect markets like St. Louis where the NFL played second fiddle to baseball and Oakland where the stadium was a toilet and they were basically a secondary tenant they were happy to leave, but I just don't think the NFL would happily let Jimmy move out of here. Call it a gut feeling.  

Not when the city is a willing participant.

I'm sure the league would prefer all parties work it out so the Browns remain in NEO but if/when it starts to get ugly my bet  is they go with the owner. In other words, once Haslam begins to complain about the hostility the league will back off and let him make the best deal with another city offering plenty of gold.

British and European markets are relatively untapped though, and Browns fans are exhausted and burned out. 

 

This might be an opening for a non-expansion relocation.

Wow, we have some kind of weird inferiority complex about team relocations because it happened once in the 90s, once in the 40s, and once in a movie.

 

The Browns moving to Brook Park is not remotely the same as moving to Baltimore. The Browns are not moving; the Guardians are not moving; the Cavs are not moving. 

 

Only in our own minds are we near the top of the list of cities that are likely to lose a franchise. All three of our teams have very decent attendance.

 

NFL:

 

 

 

NBA:

 

MLB:

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2024Oct 21 by LlamaLawyer
TYPO

This says the team is ranked #22 on the list of most-valuable NFL teams, just under Baltimore and Tampa Bay and above Tennessee, Jacksonville, Carolina and Arizona. It doesn't seem like there are many obvious alternate locations in the U.S. that would be better than Cleveland for Jimmy. Maybe if they went to Toronto or Vancouver but I'm not sure Canada wants American football. Going to London or Mexico City wouldn't fit his desire to be a big fish. 

 

The vibes are awful, though. The team is a disaster for the foreseeable future, the fans are cheering injuries to their own players (OK, there is a little more to that back story)... I just don't understand who Jimmy is talking to that he thinks he can get $2B in funding from the county or state. No politician is going to stick their neck out for this mess. Maybe they aren't playing 4D chess--could they just be really bad at managing the team and making decisions?

Edited October 21, 2024Oct 21 by coneflower

I can't see them relocating but they are going to use it as a bargaining chip for sure. 

 

I don't think the NFL is too enamored just now with more instability. The recent moves were a real mess.

Edited October 21, 2024Oct 21 by snakebite

18 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

Wow, we have some kind of weird inferiority complex about team relocations because it happened once in the 90s, once in the 40s, and once in a movie.

 

The Browns moving to Brook Park is not remotely the same as moving to Baltimore. The Browns are not moving; the Guardians are not moving; the Cavs are not moving. 

 

Only in our own minds are we near the top of the list of cities that are likely to lose a franchise. All three of our teams have very decent attendance.

 

NFL:

 

 

 

NBA:

 

MLB:

 

 

 

Excellent post. And dont forget, attendance is in proportion to stadium size..especially Progressive which is low capacity. No, the teams arent going anywhere. Not bad attendance for a "stagnant" metro

1 minute ago, snakebite said:

I can't see them relocating but they are going to use it as a bargaining chip for sure. 

 

I don't think the NFL is too enamored just now with more instability. The recent moves were a real mess.

I dont think thats much of a bargaining chip.  BP is the destination. Its been decided..all the actors have to do is play their parts. 

Decided by whom? They don't own the land or have permissions and financing for road improvements, or have funding for a stadium, or have funding and tenants for some fantasy Jimmyworld.

 

When do you think we'll start seeing Caterpillars nearby? 2026?  We're 10 weeks away from 2025 already. God knows how much Model law challenges, whether constitutional or not, will delay any groundbreaking. This could be years of litigation. 

 

Maybe they'll move there, but you've got to believe it's not locked in.

 

Edited October 21, 2024Oct 21 by TBideon

10 minutes ago, coneflower said:

This says the team is ranked #22 on the list of most-valuable NFL teams, just under Baltimore and Tampa Bay and above Tennessee, Jacksonville, Carolina and Arizona. It doesn't seem like there are many obvious alternate locations in the U.S. that would be better than Cleveland for Jimmy. Maybe if they went to Toronto or Vancouver but I'm not sure Canada wants American football. Going to London or Mexico City wouldn't fit his desire to be a big fish. 

 

The vibes are awful, though. The team is a disaster for the foreseeable future, the fans are cheering injuries to their own players (OK, there is a little more to that back story)... I just don't understand who Jimmy is talking to that he thinks he can get $2B in funding from the county or state. No politician is going to stick their neck out for this mess. Maybe they aren't playing 4D chess--could they just be really bad at managing the team and making decisions?

Since we don’t think Jimmy has pulled the trigger on the BP purchase option yet…maybe he is waiting for a higher public contribution to stay and forgo BP. DC just avoided their NBA and NHL teams moving across the river to VA even after the VA move was formally announced and seemed like a done deal. DC has now agreed to pay the lion share of $515 million vs $285 million from the corporate owner to remodel their DC arena. That lopsided deal may get Jimmy’s attention and a reason to come back to the table for a bigger shakedown attempt.

https://wtop.com/dc/2024/10/dc-mayor-proposes-87-5m-purchase-of-capital-one-arena/

12 minutes ago, snakebite said:

I can't see them relocating but they are going to use it as a bargaining chip for sure. 

 

I don't think the NFL is too enamored just now with more instability. The recent moves were a real mess.

If Jimmy does that, it would be completely stupid in my opinion. It's like getting into an argument with your spouse about whether to move and saying "well if we can't agree, I'll file for divorce." It's the kind of "leverage" that sows permanent seeds of distrust and degrades your bargaining position in the long term.

1 minute ago, LlamaLawyer said:

If Jimmy does that, it would be completely stupid in my opinion. It's like getting into an argument with your spouse about whether to move and saying "well if we can't agree, I'll file for divorce." It's the kind of "leverage" that sows permanent seeds of distrust and degrades your bargaining position in the long term.

I don't think it would come directly from him or the Browns as such but it's very possible from other sources, I.e using journalists. The Bills did it with Austin when they were going through their recent stadium stuff. It just needs to be out there to make some people panic.  

I don't understand how they are going to get the financial support to do the infrastructure work that would be required. This is where I think they may run into a conflict with the state that "forces" them to relocate.

 

However, if the infrastructure somehow also benefits Hopkins perhaps there is federal funding that could be applied?

 

Not my are of expertise by any means, but it seems like they have a huge pile of cash to put together for the stadium, and a lot of different stakeholders who will need to buy into and fund the infrastructure components.

 

Haslam's potential stake of Brook Park parking lot revenue aside, they didn't really choose the simpler project between the two locations. 

What's most realistic ultimately, Jimmy gets everything he wants in Cleveland, Brookpark, San Antonio, or London before September 2029? I just don't see how NE Ohio has the advantage beyond the team's incumbency. 

 

Maybe Watson was an intentional poison pill. It certainly would make sense in a script. 

I think Justin went the completely wrong way about this. He should’ve sold the Burke location to the Haslem’s as a shining jewel they could view from the terrace at their mansion in Bratenahl. 

The Governor spotted at the game. https://fox8.com/news/i-team-county-not-stepping-up-to-help-pay-for-browns-dome/

7 hours ago, simplythis said:

Kucinich call for legal action.  https://fox8.com/news/kucinich-calls-for-legal-action-against-browns-over-move-i-team/

Of course Dennis! has to crawl out of his hole to remind us he exists...

Paywalled, so I don’t know what it says beyond the précis in the link;

 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/10/cleveland-browns-plan-for-a-publicly-funded-dome-in-brook-park-is-a-fantasy-cuyahoga-county-executive-says.html

2 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

Paywalled, so I don’t know what it says beyond the précis in the link;

 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/10/cleveland-browns-plan-for-a-publicly-funded-dome-in-brook-park-is-a-fantasy-cuyahoga-county-executive-says.html

FWIW - I was paywalled using a desktop computer BUT I had no problem reading the article on an IPhone 

12 hours ago, simplythis said:

The Governor spotted at the game. https://fox8.com/news/i-team-county-not-stepping-up-to-help-pay-for-browns-dome/

DeWine huddling with Jimmy on the field? That explains some of the booing. 

10 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

Paywalled, so I don’t know what it says beyond the précis in the link;

 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/10/cleveland-browns-plan-for-a-publicly-funded-dome-in-brook-park-is-a-fantasy-cuyahoga-county-executive-says.html

Essentially he said that the Browns announcing their plans to leave downtown and hoping public funding follows is a fantasy and he hasn't seen "A case for support, financially or otherwise." The story also mentions that Ronayne doubled down on his August pledge not to provide county funds for a move to Brook Park and how the he mentions the other commitments that are already weighing on the county finances. 

And nobody has more juice in the statehouse than DeWine!

 

It's interesting the Brook Park mayor says this is at the 50 yard line and they need the state and county to get on board to make it happen. Ronayne seems pretty dug in and there doesn't really seem to be any push back on him from voters. The main support I see for the Browns is sports talk radio and random business people in Crain's. I doubt they are going to sway the CEO of Sherwin Williams or Keybank to say the government should help pay. But I could be wrong...

I don't see a significant chance that the state steps in with anything close to the $1,200,000,000 that the Haslams are asking for. They might give a hundred million or two (which is still a lot of money), but they've never given a billion to a stadium project before, and I don't think they want to start that precedent. With three roughly equally sized cities, the state need to at least maintain the illusion of parity, and giving a Cleveland stadium project 10x their normal contribution would tear at what is left of that illusion, likely resulting in intrastate bickering. 

 

Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'm not betting on it. 

It all comes down to money. Adding up the costs of a BP facility it comes to several billions of dollars. There's billions for the dome and a billion or more for the entertainment district and highway ramps and maybe some kind of rail extension. Haslam wants close to a 50/50 partnership with public funding. Local pols say "No." DeWine is a very cautious politician. He knows if he offers hundreds of millions in state money Cincinnati will scream for a similiar handout for their new facility and who knows what Columbus will want. 

 

I really don't think the Browns are leaving NEO BUT, the longer the funding question lingers the closer we get to Haslam moving them. His ego wants a money-making entertainment mecca. Billionaire's are used to getting their way. He doesn't want a nice little open air stadium on the lakefront. What, in any of his ideas from screwing his Pilot Flying J "business" partners to his meddling football decisions gives us hope that he will come to a thoughtful conclusion here? Nothing that l can see. If he can't get us to give him what he wants he is very likely to look elsewhere. He is not a reasonable man.

At this point even Haslam's supporters must know that entertainment district is fiction. 

 

As for the Browns leaving, they do have to play somewhere in September 2029 unless he and Bibb work out a yearly lease. If it takes three years to properly build a stadium, they don't have a lot of wiggle room.

 

Highway ramps and rail expansion solely to improve access to a roofed stadium... in a very compressed time period... in a stagnant region where no one really wants it... with this team in particular... I just don't see how that plays out.

Definitely starting to feel like they're either staying downtown or moving out of town. Not sure where Jimmy would get what he wants since a lot of other municipalities feel similarly about publicly funding stadiums. It also probably works in Cleveland's favor that the organization is a laughing stock and I could see other cities saying we're not paying $2B for the lowly Browns.