The survey results are irrelevant and won't lead to subsidies, which is the only issue that matters.

 

A true, non-biased referendum on the financing of the stadium, highway, future maintenance, and revenue sharing is the only meaningful survey.

 

I can't believe I wasted 90 seconds on this s**t yesterday.

 

And the survey has been pulled. Better luck next time grifters.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2024Dec 20 by TBideon

On 12/13/2024 at 6:52 AM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Why on earth would they build an infill station for a stadium that will be used 10-15 times a year? There is zero reason for RTA to put money into any rail extensions that do not immediately start generating big ridership (e.g. Clinic extension over Euclid Ave, which would be great). They are not in a position to “spur future ToD” when there is so much low hanging fruit for immediate improvement elsewhere. Even if this stupid waste of money gets built in Brook Park, I’d rather RTA add a Red Line infill station at Fulton or West 44. 

Its funny because that is the only way I travel to Browns games currently. I refuse to pay $50 just to see a team lose and I'm definitely not driving 25-30 minutes further AND paying for high parking plus gas. I just won't go. 

^ yet more proof the right wing has won the online media wars. fairness and honest debate is toast.

 

it will be mildly interesting to see the survey ‘results.’ 

12 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ yet more proof the right wing has won the online media wars. fairness and honest debate is toast.

 

it will be mildly interesting to see the survey ‘results.’ 

I wonder how many of them were sent to 440 and 330 cell phones, just to try to skew the results in their favor? 

18 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I wonder how many of them were sent to 440 and 330 cell phones, just to try to skew the results in their favor? 

I received a survey and have an out of state area code (but I do live in 216 now).  Maybe they just sent it to people that have bought Browns tickets before (though it has been about 10 years since I’ve done that).

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

The survey results are irrelevant and won't lead to subsidies, which is the only issue that matters.

 

A true, non-biased referendum on the financing of the stadium, highway, future maintenance, and revenue sharing is the only meaningful survey.

 

I can't believe I wasted 90 seconds on this s**t yesterday.

 

And the survey has been pulled. Better luck next time grifters.

 

 

They are doing a lot of futile stuff just now IMO. Announcing their stadium architects, developers etc. Truly putting the cart before the horse without a penny to pay for it all and get a shovel planted. I thought the wording towards the questions about Ronayne in that survey were kinda petty, sort of suggesting, tell us how much of a bad man you think he is because he won't give us free cash.

 

Also on a side note, from a purely ethical point of view, this project is absolutely dreadful when it comes to the environment and the increased drunk driving that will come from this car centric crap. I don't wanna drag it too far off into other holes, but purely in relation those things, it definitely feels like a backwards step for the entire region. Makes me feel like we're a bunch of rubes. Yay lets build 1980s crap.

Edited December 20, 2024Dec 20 by snakebite

lol, I got a spam message yesterday and didn't think anything of it - it was for the survey (I've got a 716 number). I'm no STH or anything of the sort (go bills!) but yep, survey is closed for me too. Must not have gone the way they anticipated.

 

Also to roll with snakebite's point - there's nothing better than the ability to take the bus/train/not drive to a game and be done with it, I can't believe how annoying the new stadium will be from that front. A large reason for Buffalo not building in the city was the massive utility work and infrastructure work that would need to be done (easier and cheaper to move it across the street) but man is it a bummer that you need to drive to all of their games. Yes, there are city busses that go out there, but you've only got a few for how many thousand fans that would consider it.

 

Edit to add, Cle dot com picked up on the BS nature of the survey- https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/12/read-the-questions-in-poll-seeking-support-for-12-billion-in-taxes-for-domed-browns-stadium.html

 

 

Edited December 20, 2024Dec 20 by GISguy

On 12/13/2024 at 6:52 AM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Why on earth would they build an infill station for a stadium that will be used 10-15 times a year? There is zero reason for RTA to put money into any rail extensions that do not immediately start generating big ridership (e.g. Clinic extension over Euclid Ave, which would be great). They are not in a position to “spur future ToD” when there is so much low hanging fruit for immediate improvement elsewhere. Even if this stupid waste of money gets built in Brook Park, I’d rather RTA add a Red Line infill station at Fulton or West 44. 

I also would like to see a bridge station from Little Italy to the old East 120th Street Station.

16 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

Wow you weren't kidding. One of the most biased and potentially misleading surveys I've seen. And the Ronayne part was ridiculous. I love the question at the end asking where you get your news from so they can figure out who to add to the payroll. 

 

This section just felt predatory. I'm guessing their think was people won't read that first paragraph, and will answer each question referring to the question. Not whether or not it would make them more likely to support public funding.

 

 

 

 

What did the Ronayne part of the survey say? Ronayne has sent out an e-mail criticizing the survey and notes that it was taken down.

1 hour ago, acd said:

I received a survey and have an out of state area code (but I do live in 216 now).  Maybe they just sent it to people that have bought Browns tickets before (though it has been about 10 years since I’ve done that).

That sound right then.   They might very well have heard a bunch of blowback! 

12 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

What did the Ronayne part of the survey say? Ronayne has sent out an e-mail criticizing the survey and notes that it was taken down.

 

Do you approve or disapprove of the job that Chris Ronayne is doing as Cuyahoga County Executive?

 

Strongly approve

 

Somewhat approve

 

Somewhat disapprove

 

Strongly disapprove

 

Unsure

 

County Executive Chris Ronayne has said he will not support the Cleveland Browns building a domed stadium in Brook Park, and he will only support a renovation of the current stadium. Which comes closest to your opinion of what County Executive Chris Ronayne should do about the Cleveland Browns Stadium?

 

I agree with County Executive Chris Ronayne that the Browns should be renovating the current stadium

 

I think County Executive Chris Ronayne should be supportive of either option because he represents all of Cuyahoga County

 

Chris Ronayne should find a way to support the Brook Park domed stadium project because of the economic benefits it will bring to our region

 

Unsure

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

What did the Ronayne part of the survey say? Ronayne has sent out an e-mail criticizing the survey and notes that it was taken down.

 

Can you share the email?

6 minutes ago, GISguy said:

 

Can you share the email?

 

I can do better than that....

 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

What did the Ronayne part of the survey say? Ronayne has sent out an e-mail criticizing the survey and notes that it was taken down.

Unfortunately I didn't take a screenshot of that, but it looks like @Luke_S played the hero for us. 

 

City to invoke Modell Law against Browns move
By Ken Prendergast / December 20, 2024

 

Cleveland City Council President Blaine Griffin confirmed this week that the city will invoke the state’s Modell Law to stop the Cleveland Browns from leaving the city for a new stadium site in suburban Brook Park. He also said the city and county are in a joint effort to keep the team playing its home games downtown with Cuyahoga County Executive Chris Ronayne leading the fight.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2024/12/20/city-to-invoke-modell-law-against-browns-move/

Good article.

 

Invoking the Modell law, however, is just delaying the inevitable. I get the innuendo - County/City are telling Jimmy no matter what happens, Brookpark isn't getting a dime - but Haslam would sooner move the team than privately finance. And after the Modell law is overturned, he'll do the former.

For anyone who thinks Jimbo is going to move the team out of Cleveland/Ohio, how do you square that with the investments he is making to the training facility in Berea? 

Without doing any actual research, I’ve always had the gut feeling that the Modell law is probably unconstitutional. That said, I’m all for pursuing it if only for the reason that it will make life a little more difficult for this scumbucket. That poll was a real piece of work.

I'm not a lawyer but l can't believe the Modell Law would hold up in court. Sure, it may in a lower court but as it's appealed up the court ladder eventually it will be struct down in favor of the owner.

 

It is interesting to me though that the city/county are going with Jones Day. Heavy hitters there. This should get ugly.

9 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

For anyone who thinks Jimbo is going to move the team out of Cleveland/Ohio, how do you square that with the investments he is making to the training facility in Berea? 

I agree with you, but those investments are also 4-6 months away from breaking ground at the earliest. It wouldn't surprise me if he delays them for more political pressure until they get their public money. 

How long would it take to litigate the Modell law? Besides the case outcome there is the PR impact. Model still can’t get in the HOF and his football legacy is far superior to what Haslam will ever be. They are all playing games to try and push each other to their desired outcomes. 
 

I’m not sure if there is a realistic alternative city for the team besides Cleveland. On the flip side, the county is the clear funding linchpin they need because it is still unlikely the state is going to come through with the lion share of the money. Even if Dewine says he wants to, there is a whole state legislature to deal with. 
 

From the outside, it seems like the Haslams are now in fake support till you make it mode. We’ll see if it works

29 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

For anyone who thinks Jimbo is going to move the team out of Cleveland/Ohio, how do you square that with the investments he is making to the training facility in Berea? 

Leverage for his attempted extortion. Make people think he's a good faith business leader. Optics.

 

Plus it's pennies compared to the 9 or 10 figures he would earn for a mostly free stadium, indefinite subsidized repairs/maintenance, subsidized highway restructures, complex structured debt, etc. Plus Jimmyland's revenue from parking lots, hotels, commercial, residential, etc.

 

Spend millions to make billions. A very minor gamble. 

6 minutes ago, coneflower said:

How long would it take to litigate the Modell law? Besides the case outcome there is the PR impact. Model still can’t get in the HOF and his football legacy is far superior to what Haslam will ever be. They are all playing games to try and push each other to their desired outcomes. 
 

I’m not sure if there is a realistic alternative city for the team besides Cleveland. On the flip side, the county is the clear funding linchpin they need because it is still unlikely the state is going to come through with the lion share of the money. Even if Dewine says he wants to, there is a whole state legislature to deal with. 
 

From the outside, it seems like the Haslams are now in fake support till you make it mode. We’ll see if it works

At least 3-4 years if it goes all the way to Supreme Court.  Again probably a tough road pursuing it for the city even with Jones Day (very surprised by this...I would have thought Haslam would have already wrapped them up if only to keep them out of the fray) but it will definitely gum things up for Haslam.  Not only the PR but it would probably negatively affect financing for the proposed fantasy land surrounding the stadium in the short term.

 

The thing that confuses me is how he thinks he is going to get this thing built without the support of the Cleveland and the county when clearly significant public infrastructure investment in the surrounding area outside the stadium land will be necessary.  Also, think of the optics...begging for money from the state while fighting a law passed by the state government.  This thing could be better to watch in the news than four years of Trump antics.

I just don't understand Haslam's thought process when it comes to fighting with local government.  Of course the majority of stadiums and arenas these day are being built with significant public funds.  But even those few that are totally privately financed like in LA have the support of the local government.  There is so much you need from government in order for a huge development like this to work.

Restricting interstate commerce, lack of clarity with terms like "area", a completely subjective time frame, no clarity on the bidding price, no clarity if Jimmy has to accept a bid...

 

It goes on and on.

 

This will be an expensive, losing effort. It's just bad law.

I suspected that DeWine was in town to broker a mutually agreeable compromise.  I.E. The State is open to providing funding to the Browns but doesn't want the political heat of betraying Cleveland.  So I thought DeWine may have proposed the Browns contribute something towards the lakefront, the State would promise additional funding for the lakefront too, in exchange for the City/County agreeing to letting the Browns go.  I guess this divorce just got ugly!

53 minutes ago, cadmen said:

I'm not a lawyer but l can't believe the Modell Law would hold up in court. Sure, it may in a lower court but as it's appealed up the court ladder eventually it will be struct down in favor of the owner.

 

It is interesting to me though that the city/county are going with Jones Day. Heavy hitters there. This should get ugly.

I dont think it will get ugly at all....We are now at the stage where everyone will posture and complain but behind the scenes will work out a compromise. The City and County can dangle Modell's law and the Browns can threaten to leave the area. At the end of the day, they'll each get something - maybe not completely all, but something. Im not opposed to County or State money here. It may not be downtown but aside from that it gets a blighted area rehabed.  

Its funny that Haslem benefited from the Modell Law as the Crew were about to leave for Austin which was pretty much a done deal. But the state and Dewine invoked the Modell Law which in part was effective in keeping the Crew in Columbus and thus allowed Haslem to come in and look like the hero. And though were are talking a much smaller investment for Crew stadium than what the price tag is for an NFL stadium, Haslem had his hand out big time for public subsidies which he received without opposition.

Edited December 20, 2024Dec 20 by freethink

37 minutes ago, B767PILOT said:

I dont think it will get ugly at all....We are now at the stage where everyone will posture and complain but behind the scenes will work out a compromise. The City and County can dangle Modell's law and the Browns can threaten to leave the area. At the end of the day, they'll each get something - maybe not completely all, but something. Im not opposed to County or State money here. It may not be downtown but aside from that it gets a blighted area rehabed.  

Yeah, it's in no one's interest to be paying $700 per hour lawyers for a long term piece of litigation. I mean seeing Jones Day are involved, you're dealing with one of the biggest law firms in the US.

 

Although selfishly I am enjoying the hassle and expense that HSG are going to incur. 

Edited December 20, 2024Dec 20 by snakebite

1 hour ago, snakebite said:

Yeah, it's in no one's interest to be paying $700 per hour lawyers for a long term piece of litigation. I mean seeing Jones Day are involved, you're dealing with one of the biggest law firms in the US.

 

Although selfishly I am enjoying the hassle and expense that HSG are going to incur. 

Gotta use the Hometown brand in this fight!

So, going to load up on disclaimers here first, I'm in now way saying that any of the parties involved in this project are thinking what I'm about to say. I have no direct contact with any of the architectural or engineering teams involved with the project. This is purely my speculation based on my own experience of my own company declining to bid on projects in the past because of the expected public blowback.

 

Now, that being said, I have to wonder as this gets uglier and uglier if the HSG design partners might consider walking away. A&E firms DO consider the impact on their public image when taking on projects, and given HKS's at minimum national reputation, being tied to a contract for a project that's getting this ugly, this fast will likely be fine for a while, but if it continues to spiral they might start to get nervous. The fees from a multibillion dollar project do paper over a lot of issues and soothe any damage to public perception for sure, but projects like this are as much marketing exercises as design ones (feather in the cap in your design portfolio and all that).

 

It truly is amazing how badly the Haslem's have handled this entire process from start to finish. I REALLY want to know what it was that triggered them to suddenly pivot to a "dome or bust" approach while seemingly negotiating with the city in bad faith for an extended period of time. Given history, we all know it was something shiny that caught their attention and caused them to get jealous, but would love to know what it was.

Shiny and New is not always better. The NFL owners' are making us believe that football games are only good if they come with the latest and greatest.  I ask whom at HSG made the decision to pursue a stadium and design that nobody really asked for at that exorbitant price tag?  If Jimmy and Dee want to push their own agenda through at their own cost point than be it all on them.   Clevelanders' have never needed the luxury that is being asked.  We just want an owner whom invests on a great product on the field. 

 

The current stadium is not the worst. Maintenance is all anyone asks for and affordable prices to attend. 

 

If they want to keep pushing this agenda, I want hard facts on timelines, infrastructure, events that are guaranteed to happen. How many developments share these extreme development ideas that never come to the full vision they try to sell us on?  A shiny rendering is all we have and yet no rendering of what the current stadium could be has ever been shared.

 

If the city owns the current stadium, why have they not hired an architect to show what could be done without HSG controlling the narrative?

I personally would prefer to see the Burke Dome as the compromise option, despite being ruled out by HSG, so far. 

 

But, would anything change in perception if that airport stadium location, now barely outside of Cleveland city boundaries, were officially annexed into Cleveland in whatever way that would give Brook Park the $$$ to make up for the relative loss of prestige their 18,000 residents probably think they're getting by locating it there? 

On 12/20/2024 at 9:49 AM, Luke_S said:

Odds that the results of this survey are made public? 

 

As many have already pointed out the questions are extremely leading. I know we have our own little echo chamber here, but when I've checked in on the comments on Instagram it seems most are against the move to Brook Park. I think (hope) they're not going to get the survey results they planned to. Not that I think it will change any decision making... They build it and fans will still come...

This latest Haslam family fumble reminds every one again that they are still outsiders in their thinking and actions just like with their rookie botched attempt to move the Brown summer training camp to C-bus before that backfired on them just like the push poll is going to do even causing more unforced damage to their efforts.

 

Edited December 22, 2024Dec 22 by Willo

19 hours ago, eyehrtfood said:

But, would anything change in perception if that airport stadium location, now barely outside of Cleveland city boundaries, were officially annexed into Cleveland in whatever way that would give Brook Park the $$$ to make up for the relative loss of prestige their 18,000 residents probably think they're getting by locating it there? 

The loss of income taxes for those employed by the Browns is not the issue (they are likely already incorporated in Berea, though I don't know for sure).  And if the Haslams took Bibb's offer, the city wouldn't get any of the taxes on tickets for a very long time, nor the benefits of parking taxes.  However, to me, all of those things are minor.

 

If Haslam wanted to build in Brookpark on his own dime and it was just for the Browns, I wouldn't mind so much.  What angers me is that he clearly wants to poach a lot of activity and events from downtown, siphoning off the burgeoning growth this city has lacked for my entire lifetime, just so that he can be a few dollars richer.  He wants events that would otherwise support downtown businesses and hotels and venues all come to Potterville, OH.  That is the issue.

 

I know a lot of folks are saying the other developments won't follow, but I'm not so sure.  And I don't want to risk it.  Again, if all he's going to do is build a stadium for the Browns down there, it's dumb and shortsighted and being done in the most idiotic way imaginable (especially how it looks like he's ignoring public transit options), but that is his mess.  But we need to resist with every means available his desire to suck us dry.

On 12/21/2024 at 3:59 AM, dave2017 said:

Shiny and New is not always better. The NFL owners' are making us believe that football games are only good if they come with the latest and greatest.  I ask whom at HSG made the decision to pursue a stadium and design that nobody really asked for at that exorbitant price tag?  If Jimmy and Dee want to push their own agenda through at their own cost point than be it all on them.   Clevelanders' have never needed the luxury that is being asked.  We just want an owner whom invests on a great product on the field. 

 

The current stadium is not the worst. Maintenance is all anyone asks for and affordable prices to attend. 

 

If they want to keep pushing this agenda, I want hard facts on timelines, infrastructure, events that are guaranteed to happen. How many developments share these extreme development ideas that never come to the full vision they try to sell us on?  A shiny rendering is all we have and yet no rendering of what the current stadium could be has ever been shared.

 

If the city owns the current stadium, why have they not hired an architect to show what could be done without HSG controlling the narrative?

I mean look at the Shoe. It's not domed, it hasn't been renovated in decades, and its extremely beloved by fans new and old. The fans will show even if the weather's bad. A dome is not make or break. 

30 minutes ago, columbus17 said:

I mean look at the Shoe. It's not domed, it hasn't been renovated in decades, and its extremely beloved by fans new and old. The fans will show even if the weather's bad. A dome is not make or break. 

 

I originally thought a Browns stadium roof made sense IF it could serve as a connected addition to the Convention Center. But apparently that space is not needed, or there would have been some momentum or commentary. Even then make that thing retractible....even if you're afraid of snow we have had such really beautiful sunny weather days for Browns games. 

11 hours ago, Chris314 said:

The loss of income taxes for those employed by the Browns is not the issue (they are likely already incorporated in Berea, though I don't know for sure).  And if the Haslams took Bibb's offer, the city wouldn't get any of the taxes on tickets for a very long time, nor the benefits of parking taxes.  However, to me, all of those things are minor.

 

If Haslam wanted to build in Brookpark on his own dime and it was just for the Browns, I wouldn't mind so much.  What angers me is that he clearly wants to poach a lot of activity and events from downtown, siphoning off the burgeoning growth this city has lacked for my entire lifetime, just so that he can be a few dollars richer.  He wants events that would otherwise support downtown businesses and hotels and venues all come to Potterville, OH.  That is the issue.

 

I know a lot of folks are saying the other developments won't follow, but I'm not so sure.  And I don't want to risk it.  Again, if all he's going to do is build a stadium for the Browns down there, it's dumb and shortsighted and being done in the most idiotic way imaginable (especially how it looks like he's ignoring public transit options), but that is his mess.  But we need to resist with every means available his desire to suck us dry.

Exactly, the intention of so many NE Ohians and talking heads/radio voices completely ignoring the fact that Haslam would certainly poach from RMFH is infuriating. So many time since the 80s, city proper takes one step forward, then the suburbs push the city two steps back. People in this region don't understand we are not comparable to Dallas, LA, NY who's population size and growth bursts at the seams and one entity moving away from the city proper won't have a huge negative effect. Cleveland is at the point that one major corporate or big money maker moving out of the city proper into the burbs is a massive blow to downtown/city proper momentum. 

If you look at Ford Field, how many massive events does that draw per year compared to CLeveland Browns Stadium (which is a piss poor comparison given Detroit Metro is like double the size of Cleveland). It's frankly not that significant. Are people seriously naive to the fact that Haslam would be going after events already at IX Center, Cleveland Convention center and RMFH? His dome is already going to be the smalles in the NFL in terms of seating, these people act like you can't close off seats for small events. This whole thing is a piggy bank for him and it's going to negatively effect downtown in a lot more ways then loss of bar revenue on Sundays. Pathetic that so many see a rendering or BS "study" and all for this mess. Let alone the fact that the county subsidizing this would literally be subsidizing downtowns continued demise. 

^ You are correct sir!

1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Exactly, the intention of so many NE Ohians and talking heads/radio voices completely ignoring the fact that Haslam would certainly poach from RMFH is infuriating. So many time since the 80s, city proper takes one step forward, then the suburbs push the city two steps back. People in this region don't understand we are not comparable to Dallas, LA, NY who's population size and growth bursts at the seams and one entity moving away from the city proper won't have a huge negative effect. Cleveland is at the point that one major corporate or big money maker moving out of the city proper into the burbs is a massive blow to downtown/city proper momentum. 

If you look at Ford Field, how many massive events does that draw per year compared to CLeveland Browns Stadium (which is a piss poor comparison given Detroit Metro is like double the size of Cleveland). It's frankly not that significant. Are people seriously naive to the fact that Haslam would be going after events already at IX Center, Cleveland Convention center and RMFH? His dome is already going to be the smalles in the NFL in terms of seating, these people act like you can't close off seats for small events. This whole thing is a piggy bank for him and it's going to negatively effect downtown in a lot more ways then loss of bar revenue on Sundays. Pathetic that so many see a rendering or BS "study" and all for this mess. Let alone the fact that the county subsidizing this would literally be subsidizing downtowns continued demise. 

 

Also - how many Final 4s and/or Super Bowls has Detroit hosted since Ford Field opened.... 

2 hours ago, YABO713 said:

 

Also - how many Final 4s and/or Super Bowls has Detroit hosted since Ford Field opened.... 

1  in Ford Field. 

1 prior to that at the Silverdome. 

 

But...Detroit is a march larger market with many more hotels and also the automotive industry, which is a MAJOR advertiser in NFL TV and sponsorship buys.  

 

I don't think Cleveland would ever get a chance....there is not enough of those components here to piece together the NFL letting us have a bite of that cake. 

There are now lots of events planned in the week before Super Bowl Sunday. How many people are going to want to spend a week in Cleveland in the middle of February?

 

Edited December 23, 2024Dec 23 by LibertyBlvd

^Im against the stadium move… but if they were willing to go to Minneapolis for the Super Bowl, then they can come here. 
 

All the more reason why the existing infrastructure should be utilized until Burke is closed.

Downtown Cleveland can be a wonderful setting for big events. So many more hotels are coming too. And honestly, if a dome is built I think there will be a Super Bowl or Final Four no matter where it goes. 

There’s a reason why every other cold-weather dome is in a downtown though. Expecting travelers from around the country to fly into the airport, stay downtown, and travel to the Brook Park site for the event (in the dead of winter) is ridiculous. It’s just not a competitive location. I truly believe the Brook Park location will flop other than Browns games and the concerts we already get. 
 

I’ve been to a number of multi day drum corps/ marching band competitions in Indy over the years. Spectators and participants come and go throughout the day, and weekend for stuff like that. Multi day conventions are the same. It’s essential to be walkable to hotels and food. And 400 rooms aren’t going to do much. 

 

I'd rather get a season of Top Chef than a Super Bowl. What do cities get out of hosting the Super Bowl, really? At least with Top Chef they make some of the weekly contests based around local history and culture and they feature local chefs and local food-related businesses. I am sure those episodes drive tourists visits to those cities. I remember when the Super Bowl was played in Detroit but I don't remember them talking about anything beside it being cold.

 

The Haslams' decision-making has proven so poor, there is no reason to think a Brook Park dome/development--even if it is possible to fund--would be successful. It's telling the main people in charge are not from here. I have a hard time seeing people east and south of Cleveland going out of their way to drive to the airport for a Browns-themed Crocker Park, unless they are going to a game. We already have ample suburban retail/restaurant locations that are well-maintained and current and CLOSE to home for those folks.

 

The thing that is crazy about all this is where there is demonstrated demand for transformational development is in the city, which is underserved!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2024Dec 22 by coneflower

5 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

^Im against the stadium move… but if they were willing to go to Minneapolis for the Super Bowl, then they can come here.

Minneapolis is home to Target and General Mills...all huge ad buyers with the NFL. 

The other thing people are leaving out of the discussion about Cleveland and Super Bowls...our owner is not very well liked amongst the other owners.   The Deshaun Watson deal has made him somewhat of a pariah as it jacked up the QB market contracts.

Meanwhile the 75 year old Santiago Bernabéu Stadium has wrapped in Spain. Somehow they were able to figure out how to add a retractable roof to it and keep the cost under 2b. Also at the same link at the bottom of the page they rip the design of Jimmys proposed BP parking lot.

 

https://www.archpaper.com/2024/06/real-madrid-cf-bernabeu-stadium-renovation-gmp-l35-arquitectos-ribas-ribas-arquitectos/

 

Yeah, I think the NFL wants to increase the competition for Super Bowl hosting much like the draft, but it'll be within reason. A new/renovated Soldier Field with a dome close to Downtown Chicago is obviously going to get one, but one in a suburban rather industrial part of Cleveland just does not make sense. The way I see it is Indy, Detroit, Minneapolis etc will be the northern cities which still get the big events in the winter whilst in the summer they'll just go to Cincy and Pittsburgh who will have their outdoor stadiums in accessible locations. We will be in no man's land with with a suburban dome, its s**t from both perspectives. The proxmity to the airport is also redundant now it has been dehubbed. 

18 hours ago, ITakeTheRapid said:

Downtown Cleveland can be a wonderful setting for big events. So many more hotels are coming too. And honestly, if a dome is built I think there will be a Super Bowl or Final Four no matter where it goes. 

There’s a reason why every other cold-weather dome is in a downtown though. Expecting travelers from around the country to fly into the airport, stay downtown, and travel to the Brook Park site for the event (in the dead of winter) is ridiculous. It’s just not a competitive location. I truly believe the Brook Park location will flop other than Browns games and the concerts we already get. 
 

I’ve been to a number of multi day drum corps/ marching band competitions in Indy over the years. Spectators and participants come and go throughout the day, and weekend for stuff like that. Multi day conventions are the same. It’s essential to be walkable to hotels and food. And 400 rooms aren’t going to do much. 

 

 

Indy also landed the NCAA HQ in the late 90s because of its heavy investment in the convention business and centralized sports venues. Infact they were HQ'd in suburban KC at the time after having left urban KCMO in the 70s for a dreary suburban office building in Kansas. They left and ultimately went to Indianapolis in large part due to the location of their venues and the energy they bring as opposed to staying in a metro that didn't invest in Downtown and placed their stadiums and arena in crap car centric areas with no activity. You're not going to attract new to market investment in a slow growth region outside of the sunbelt if the focus becomes places like Brook Park or Rockside Rd or whatever. Infact does anyone outside of NEO even know where Brook Park is? Probably not. Would Sherwin Williams have chosen suburban Cleveland over Atlanta for their new HQ? Not a f*cking chance IMO. Anyone who signs off on subsidizing this crap is ultimately placing the region at huge risk. Cleveland is not going to come out the better in mergers/buyouts for example if we are pitting Brook Park or other suburban locations against Austin or Charlotte or whatever, but if we keep Downtown stronger I feel we have a punchers chance of attracting and keeping investment. Two of KC's biggest employers Cerner (bought out by Oracle) and Sprint (bought out by T-Mobile) were not HQ'd in Downtown but in suburban office parks off of highways and ultimately post merger are now in Seattle and Nashville, the baseball team plays in a crap suburban area and is scraping the barrel in MLB revenue and attendance. All I'm trying to say is perception is reality and if your most prominent area is neglected and shat upon by the locals, don't expect outsiders to rush to invest. Call it scaremongering or whatever but theres some stark examples in other comparable parts of the country of what this sort of stuff leads to.

Edited December 23, 2024Dec 23 by snakebite

46 minutes ago, snakebite said:

Yeah, I think the NFL wants to increase the competition for Super Bowl hosting much like the draft, but it'll be within reason. A new/renovated Soldier Field with a dome close to Downtown Chicago is obviously going to get one, but one in a suburban rather industrial part of Cleveland just does not make sense. The way I see it is Indy, Detroit, Minneapolis etc will be the northern cities which still get the big events in the winter whilst in the summer they'll just go to Cincy and Pittsburgh who will have their outdoor stadiums in accessible locations. We will be in no man's land with with a suburban dome, its s**t from both perspectives. The proxmity to the airport is also redundant now it has been dehubbed. 

Haslam has shown himself to not exactly be a strategic genius…