Interesting take on dealing with population decline in Youngstown Ohio, from Metropolis Magazine

 

http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/story.php?artid=1907

 

The Incredible Shrinking City

 

Facing steep population decline, Youngstown, Ohio, is repositioning itself.

 

By Belinda Lanks

Posted April 17, 2006

 

 

 

 

 

 

The topic of shrinking cities is quite interesting and relevant. 

 

Here are some results from thje CUDC/Shrinking Cities Insitute charette, dealing with a neighborhood just southeast of downtown, across the Mahoning... Oakhill.

 

 

 

 

Here are the charette results:

 

 

 

Group A - "Central Park"

 

Todd Hutchinson, Supriya Rao, Mirjana Siljanoska, Divya Sridhar

 

This concept focused on using blocks where there was a preponderance of vacant land to link the cemetery (upper right) with Mill Creek Park (left). The resulting linear park includes some surviving housing, as well as a variety of programmed and semi-programmed spaces designed to serve a wide variety of age groups.

 

 

Group C - "Linking Greens"

 

Ryan Denker, Amy Florian, David Jurca, Rucha Khanderia

 

This team used analogous approaches to locating paths for linkages through the neighborhood, but concentrated particularly on linkages beyond the neighborhood to Downtown, Mill Creek Park and elsewhere. In addition to more "natural" landscapes, the plan defines two more formal paths which intersect at a neighborhood park and market.

 

 

Group D - "Finding Ground"

 

Melanie Buzgan, Rob Dower, Jim Pinter, Adam Yaracs

 

This proposal evolved out of careful consideration o fthe topography, concentrating green space along the most sensitive slopes. In a hollow southwest of the cemetery a "clearing" is defined that can evolve as a multi-purpose neighborhood gathering space. This is linked to a newly-defined north-south axis through the neighborhood and to new housing proposed to the north. This proposal stressed the indeterminacy of Youngstown's future, providing a framework that would make sense of stable, declining or increasing neighborhood populations.

 

Apparently this shrinking city concept is informed by a new design strategy calle Landscape Urbanism

 

 

this is awesome info. thx.

They aren't kidding about Oak Hill - the blight is incredibly widespread and on a level that rivals the worst areas of much larger cities. Here are some pics from Oak Hill:

 

The northeasternmost part, near Market Street. On the left side of the pic, the building has collapsed. This building has been falling apart for almost a decade - in other cities, it would probably at least have been boarded up and secured or demolished:

 

Next to the building is this house, stripped of its aluminum siding and left to rot:

 

Close to the heart of Oak Hill (on Oak Hill @ Woodland). Note the boarded up door has been broken down:

 

A few blocks away, this apartment building is abandoned, with overhangs on each entrance having collapsed:

 

More of the same:

 

 

Not even churches are immune - while I expected to see blight, this was absolutely surreal:

 

It's not completely without hope - some infill projects have happened, but they're the exception to the rule:

 

And this lone house (or shall I say compound) is one of the few holdouts:

 

Finally, Oak Hill might not have much, but they do have this great view of the downtown skyline:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

nothing like a concrete block pier to welcome you home

Good news is, Mayor Jay is dedicating 1 million dollars of the cities budget to remove abandoned buildings, I talked with a few people running this project and a lot of it is this area of the city, many of these buildings on Oak Hill be demolished this summer or next summer.

oh gawd, i hope they don't go crazy and just tear it all out. the most decrepit houses & buildings sure, but more unique and solid structures like that church and auto repair shop for example ought to be saved somehow. the shrinking city plans are a creative opportunity, but no need to start from a completely blank slate. some structures that are cultural markers in each area or on each block should remain if possible.

^good point.

This has been posted elsewhere, and I will repeat my comment here:

 

Does this guy think that housing prices in Cleveland and Pittsburgh warrant 70 mile commutes ?

 

Does he think that gas prices will allow it?

 

Does he think that Youngstown will be the ideal place for people looking to get away from the ills of the city that they find in Cleveland or Pittsburgh?

 

The guy is smoking crack.

I grew up in Warren, just outside of Youngstown. Many in Warren make a daily work commute to the Southeastern burbs of Cleveland. It is considered by some an ideal "bedroom" community.

Yes, but that's Warren which is quite a distance to the northwest of Youngstown proper (i.e. downtown Youngstown). Barring some sort of turnaround in population that brings Cleveland up to that of say, Chicago - I don't see Youngstown becoming a "suburb" or a bedroom community anytime soon.

There are only 15 miles between downtown Warren and downtown Youngstown.

 

Just for a point of discussion...

 

Here's what 250K buys in Youngstown

 

1848 Fifth Ave

7 Bedrooms, 5 Baths, 3 car attached garage, Built in 1900.

 

Here's a comp in Shaker Heights for 800K

 

2800 Attleboro

6 Bedrooms, 6 Baths, 3 car detached garage, Built in 1910

 

There is only an hour commute between the two houses. $550,000 buys quite a bit of gas. And one hell of a security system.

 

From the Eastgate Regional Council of Governments 2030 Long Range Transportation Plan report:

"Due to lower average housing costs and the central location of Youngstown withrespect to Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Akron, a continuing trend for workers seems to be to reside inthe Youngstown/Warren metropolitan area and commute daily to Cleveland, Pittsburgh or Akron"

"There are only 15 miles between downtown Warren and downtown Youngstown."

 

As the crow flies - that 15 miles can easily translate into 30-40 minutes with rush-hour traffic. Add that to the commute into Greater Cleveland and that commuter is going to be one unhappy camper. I know from experience - a former boss commuted from Howland to Stow, and they were the crankiest, stressed-out person you ever met. I'm not saying that people AREN'T commuting from Youngstown/Warren to Cleveland/Akron but the effect on their quality of life isn't a positive thing, $550K notwithstanding. Sure, they're saving on their housing costs but the quality of life wouldn't be worth it to a lot of people. The thing is - while you've pointed out a pricey home in Shaker Heights, there are plenty of wonderfully livable homes in Greater Cleveland for $250K (or even less). I'm all too familiar with Fifth Avenue - a lovely home only goes so far if you can't leave it without fear for your safety.

I thought the idea was to attract new people to Ohio, not poach residents from other towns.

Those homes really aren't comparables.  Location, location, location!  You'd have to do alot of adjustments based on school system, safety, amenities, expected resale etc. to really make a comp out of that.  Then you could compare them to see what the price savings is for moving to Youngstown.

From the 12/13/06 Youngstown Vindicator:

 

 

Article in Sunday magazine praises Youngstown 2010 plan

The article praises the city's plan to shrink 'its way into a new identity.'

By DAVID SKOLNICK

CITY HALL REPORTER

 

YOUNGSTOWN — An article in The New York Times Magazine praising Youngstown for its 2010 citywide plan is drawing attention to the city from those outside the area.

 

Mayor Jay Williams said he's received numerous telephone calls and e-mails from people in Pennsylvania, New York and, of course, Ohio inquiring about the plan and its implementation.

 

"We're pleased to see our city portrayed in a positive light in a national publication," Williams said.

 

More at http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regional/312753701094780.php

 

From the 12/20/06 Youngstown Vindicator:

 

 

2010 wins national planning award

The national recognition is getting the attention of developers, a city official says.

By DAVID SKOLNICK

CITY HALL REPORTER

 

YOUNGSTOWN — The American Planning Association selected the Youngstown 2010 citywide plan as the winner of its 2007 National Planning Excellence Award for Public Outreach.

 

The award is the latest national honor and recognition received by Youngstown, with most of the accolades for its 2010 plan. The plan took three years to develop and is a detailed vision focused on revitalizing Youngstown, said Anthony Kobak, the city's chief planner.

 

"This [award] gets the attention of developers and others that could translate into more development and attract more businesses and jobs to the city," Kobak said.

 

...

 

More at:

http://www.vindy.com/content/local_regional/344268239660785.php

 

Subscribers get a nice map to play around with :-D

 

As Its Population Declines, Youngstown Thinks Small

Rather Than Trying To Grow, Ohio City Plans More Open Space

By TIMOTHY AEPPEL

May 3, 2007; Page A1

 

YOUNGSTOWN, Ohio -- Hanging next to city planner Bill D'Avignon's desk is a giant map of this city, divided into neighborhoods. One is Oak Hill, a gritty enclave just south of downtown. The neighborhood, once densely populated, has lost 60% of its population in recent decades and is dotted with abandoned buildings and empty lots.

 

Faced with the devastation of Oak Hill and other depressed pockets of the city, Youngstown is trying an unusual approach: Allow such areas to keep emptying out and, in some cases, become almost rural. Unused streets and alleys eventually could be torn up and planted over, the city says. Abandoned buildings could be razed, leading to the creation of larger home lots with plenty of green space, and new parks.

 

Youngstown, a former steel-producing hub, has been losing residents for years as a result of the closing of most of its steel mills. But rather than struggle to regain its former glory or population, it has adopted an economic-development plan that boils down to controlled shrinkage. By accepting the inevitable, the city says it can reduce its housing stock, infrastructure and services accordingly.

 

...

 

More at:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117813481105289837-search.html?KEYWORDS=youngstown&COLLECTION=wsjie/6month

It's amazing that Cleveland and Youngstown have lost the same % of population.  With so much redevelopment in Central in the last ten years, there are few areas left in Cleveland where this sort of strategy would work.  Maybe parts of eastern Central and Kinsman.  Even Hough and Fairfax don't have large areas of contiguous vacancy on the scale to warrant street closures.

 

The only large city where I could see this concept being applicable is maybe Detroit, which has vast swaths of nothingness.  Maybe St. Louis?

 

Has anyone made it to the exhibit mentioned yet?  I still need to go.

For sh!ts and giggles, I made a Google map of the Oak Hill area and 'tagged' buildings that were vacant/collapsing as well as some of the photos posted above. When you see how many there are (and this map is not comprehensive), and how many vacant lots there are - the idea of shrinking the city becomes plausible. http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&t=h&om=1&msid=111501388969053870983.0000011257530374ea6d6&ll=41.089799,-80.660634&spn=0.024097,0.046134&z=15

Good lord.

 

I'm coming up for a visit!

In all seriousness - be careful if you go. It's not the best idea to take a long walk through the area, and though the area can be desolate in spots, violent crime isn't uncommon. Stay close to your car and trust your gut.

There's multiple issues with Ytown.  There's been a ton of sprawl to the suburbs.  The population of Trumbull and Mahoning aren't down as significantly as the city of Youngstown.  At 35sq miles thats pretty big for a population not much more than 75k.  Its basically the same thing that large families have to deal with too large of houses once the kids have left.  Youngstown is an empty nester city.  The city will never be that size again.  If they can landbank and turn to green fields a big enough contiguous area in particular near the mills, they might be able to attract some manufacturers since there's probably some advantage to being there with its transportation links.

 

I'd wonder if Canton can't do the same..

SHRINK TO FIT

As Its Population Declines, Youngstown Thinks Small

Rather Than Trying To Grow, Ohio City Plans More Open Space

By TIMOTHY AEPPEL

May 3, 2007; Page A1

 

YOUNGSTOWN, Ohio -- Hanging next to city planner Bill D'Avignon's desk is a giant map of this city, divided into neighborhoods. One is Oak Hill, a gritty enclave just south of downtown. The neighborhood, once densely populated, has lost 60% of its population in recent decades and is dotted with abandoned buildings and empty lots.

 

Faced with the devastation of Oak Hill and other depressed pockets of the city, Youngstown is trying an unusual approach: Allow such areas to keep emptying out and, in some cases, become almost rural. Unused streets and alleys eventually could be torn up and planted over, the city says. Abandoned buildings could be razed, leading to the creation of larger home lots with plenty of green space, and new parks.

 

Youngstown, a former steel-producing hub, has been losing residents for years as a result of the closing of most of its steel mills. But rather than struggle to regain its former glory or population, it has adopted an economic-development plan that boils down to controlled shrinkage. By accepting the inevitable, the city says it can reduce its housing stock, infrastructure and services accordingly.

 

...

 

More at:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117813481105289837.html

 

I was listening to some past episodes of Carol Coletta's Smart City radio program and came across an episode that seemed somewhat relevant to this discussion.  It features guest Sean Safford, who wrote Why the Garden Club Couldn’t Save Youngstown and analyzes how Youngstown ended up in the situation it is in while some similar cities had different fates. 

[mp3=200,20,0,center]http://smartcityradio.fluidhosting.com/2007/05-May/053107_SmartCity.mp3[/mp3]

 

Here is an abstract from his report....

This paper seeks to understand how the structure of civic relationships shapes trajectories of economic change through an examination of two well-matched Rust Belt cities: Allentown, Pennsylvania and Youngstown, Ohio. Despite sharing very similar economic histories, Allentown and Youngstown have nevertheless taken dramatically different post-industrial paths since the 1970s. The paper analyses how the intersection of economic and civic social networks shape the strategic choice and possibilities for mobilization of key organizational actors in response to two historical junctures that were critical in shaping the cities’ economic trajectories. The analysis shows that differences in the way that civic and economic relationships intersected facilitated collective action in one and impeded it in the other.  However, in contrast to much of the literature on “social capital” the results suggest the downsides of network density, particularly in times of acute economic crisis. Rather, it is more important that the structure of social relationships facilitate interaction—and mobilization—across social, political and economic divisions.

The full paper is available here.

The incredible shrinking city

Youngstown, Ohio, has long been on the decline and now is being hit by the foreclosure crisis. Its answer: Razing abandoned buildings and tearing up streets.

By Les Christie, CNNMoney, April 14, 2008

 

YOUNGSTOWN, Ohio (CNNMoney.com) -- Youngstown, Ohio, has seen its population shrink by more than half over the past 40 years, leaving behind huge swaths of empty homes, streets and neighborhoods.

 

Now, in a radical move, the city - which has suffered since the steel industry left town and jobs dried up - is bulldozing abandoned buildings, tearing up blighted streets and converting entire blocks into open green spaces. More than 1,000 structures have been demolished so far.

 

Under the initiative, dubbed Plan 2010, city officials are also monitoring thinly-populated blocks. When only one or two occupied homes remain, the city offers incentives - up to $50,000 in grants - for those home owners to move, so that the entire area can be razed. The city will save by cutting back on services like garbage pick-ups and street lighting in deserted areas.

 

...

 

More at:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/04/08/real_estate/radical_city_plan/index.htm?postversion=2008041409

wow!

I thought I posted an article a year back on this, and it had some great comments and images of just what has happened. Entire blocks vacant. Streets closed and covered over with soil. Lands reverted to woodlands and farmland. It was amazing.

Just for a point of discussion...

 

Here's what 250K buys in Youngstown

 

1848 Fifth Ave

7 Bedrooms, 5 Baths, 3 car attached garage, Built in 1900.

 

This house is now listed at $189,900...wow.

 

http://www.mastershomes.us/Properties/property_display.asp?listingid=1510863&listingtype=Residential

^ $189K for that house :-o... WOW!

And houses going for $500k+ in Howland 15 minutes away don't have 1/3 the character or charm, and are usually only 4 bdrms!

Youngstown is fascinating, though it really didnt seem that empty when I visted back in the 1990s.  I think I missed the worst sections, though.

 

 

It seems to me that if people are going to commute 70 miles to work in Cleveland or Pittsburgh, they're going to look for a new greenfield neighborhood like those the Youngstown area already has too much of, rather than buy in an old city with image problems and crime fears. If they're looking to be urban pioneers, they'd probably want to do so closer to home in Cleveland or Pittsburgh, where there are more cultural amenities.

From the Y-towners I've met, it mostly seems to come from old blood that just won't leave, but needs to drive to get a job. YSU grads are a big part of it too.

I live in Warren and i know a ton of people that commute to Cleveland and Akron. I know several people that commute to Bank of America (formerly MBNA) in Beechwood (?). A few of my former co-workers (from Delphi Packard) are driving to the Cleveland area for school and retraining. One guy i know is commuting from Greenville, Pa to the Cleveland area to become an RN. I also have a friend that works at Chapel Hill Mall in Akron and he has worked w/many that commute from the Youngstown area.

 

There are also people the commute to the Youngstown area from both Akron and Cleveland. A friend of a friend that lives in Akron is an EMT in Youngstown. When i worked in engineering for Delphi i knew several contract employees that commuted to Warren from both the Akron and Cleveland areas, and this was to make between $12 and $17/hr.

 

I agree that most people that might want to move the the metro area will not want to live in the city of Youngstown, or even Warren for that matter. Most people around here want to live in Howland, Cortland, or Champion. They all very safe, have great schools, and lots of very affordable housing.

 

I know when i graduate in December (w/my BBA in Management) i do not plan on moving. I don't mind a commute as long as it's not over an hour. I know there are jobs out there for people like me, you just have to know the right people around here.

that's it, we can lump youngstown into the northeast ohio metro and see who's biggest after all.  8^)

When I was working on a proposed regional rail service to link Cleveland, Youngstown and Pittsburgh (and points in between), I got my hands on some work trip data for Mahoning and Trumbull counties. Granted, this was 1990 census data, but still might apply to today. I recall there being more 7,000 people who commuted each workday from Mahoning and Trumbull counties to Cuyahoga County, and something like 2,500 who commuted each workday to Allegheny County (Pittsburgh). The latter number was similar for the worktrips bound for workplaces in Summit County.

 

The rail service planning work was eventually taken over by the Ohio Hub Plan (see www.ohiohub.com). As gas prices continue to rise, the creation of rail service will become more important especially if the Youngstown-Warren metro area wants to hang on to its residents. The IRS says it costs 50.5 cents per mile to drive your own car (for business travel deduction purposes). That figure that doesn't even include paid parking.

 

Amtrak charges $44 round trip for Cleveland-Pittsburgh, or just 15.7 cents per mile. Too bad the trains bypass Youngstown and run only at night as part of a Chicago-Washington DC daily schedule. Fortunately Rep. Ryan is helping to make more convenient rail service happen -- more news is likely to come out later this year about this.

That is one of the most depressing articles I have ever read...

 

I don't think any of these articles are depressing at all. I think it's wonderfully optimistic. Yes, life dealt midwestern cities a deck of pretty crappy cards, and it's been rough. But instead of looking at what the city used to be and trying to replicate it with schemes, Youngstown is looking at what it can to with it's resources RIGHT NOW, to make it the best place for the residents it still has. That is an awesome way to look at it. And maybe, with any luck, these new large parks will be the anchors of new, vibrant neighborhoods. As long as the 2010 Plan doesn't involve tearing down that beautiful downtown they've created for themselves.

 

But hey, I'm new to this topic. The reason I came on here is because of an article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel regarding this topic:

 

Will Milwaukee, like Youngstown, wither?

 

Forum would study how cities thrive

 

By JOHN SCHMID

[email protected]

 

Posted: May 12, 2008

 

Explaining the urgency to create the first economic policy think tank for the Midwest, an official of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs on Monday pointed to the plight of Youngstown, Ohio.

 

The city, which lost its steel mills and much of its population, has thrown in the towel. Instead of trying to grow its economy, it's bulldozing entire swaths of the city and converting them back to prairie. Urban planners dub it the "shrinking city."

 

It's a case of desperation, and it explains what's at stake as the Midwest grapples with global competition, said Richard Longworth, a senior fellow at the foreign affairs organization and author of a recent book "Caught in the Middle: America's Heartland in the Age of Globalism."

 

...

 

More at:

http://www.jsonline.com/

This isn't all about Y-town, but I didn't want to start a new thread.   Unfortunately Dayton, Cleveland, and Toledo warrent some recognition by Mrs. Sherman as well.

 

 

America's Eight Most Downsized Cities

Bad Reputations, Limited Economies Prompt Residents to Leave These Cities

By LAUREN SHERMAN

Forbes.com

March 25, 2009—

 

In a way, it's the same old story: The Rust Belt, comprised of blue-collar cities where the manufacturing industry once dominated, can't seem to find a way to thrive.

 

Take Pittsburgh. Despite the fact that the city's steel industry began to deteriorate all the way back in the 1970s, the city is still better known for its mills than for its $10.8 billion stake in the technology and life-science sectors, including companies like Bayer, BPL Global and Plextronics. 

 

Same goes for Buffalo, N.Y. Once a great producer of steel and automobiles, the city's bioinformatics research industry is now flourishing. Yet just like Pittsburgh, Buffalo is shedding population.

 

...

 

More at:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/story?id=7161344&page=1

I thought I posted an article a year back on this, and it had some great comments and images of just what has happened. Entire blocks vacant. Streets closed and covered over with soil. Lands reverted to woodlands and farmland. It was amazing.

 

I think I've seen pictures like this.  They may have been taken in areas of the east side that were never developed.  The city was optimistic that the population would continue to grow, so they installed streets, hydrants, etc.  But then the bottom dropped out, and they were never developed.

The city was optimistic that the population would continue to grow, so they installed streets, hydrants, etc.

 

...so Youngstown had an empty quarter from even before the big 1970s shutdown?

 

 

Why does Forbes have such focused hate on us?  It seems they publish something every week about how awful it is in Ohio.

The city was optimistic that the population would continue to grow, so they installed streets, hydrants, etc.

 

...so Youngstown had an empty quarter from even before the big 1970s shutdown?

 

 

 

Yes. And neighboring Warren does also.

^

interesting!

 

There have been times before where Forbes has "lied through exclusion" and done doom and gloom articles on Ohio and Michigan cities, but ignored Pittsburgh and Buffalo.

 

Despite its ongoing population declines Pittsburgh actually seems more alive than most Ohio citys (exception being Columbus).  I don't have a big problem with Forbes' lists as they are describing economic reality.  People have a tough time coming to grips with this which is why all the pooh-poohing of Forbes' lists.  I note in this case they are measuring metro populations.  And if one wanted to take the long view, for Dayton region at least, there has been population stagnation since 1970.  Minimal net growth. So for Forbes to say there is population downsizing as a key sector of the local economy disappears, well, duh...who is to argue with that?

 

I also note that the author of this article cautioned against rustbelt stereotypes not describing the full picture.  I think this is the case with Pittsburgh.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I got a kick out of the bit where she says that if Billy Joel, Mellencamp, or Springsteen wrote a melancholy song about your town its one the list. lol. She forgot Mark Knopfler, who penned this tune (in 1982).  For ten points what city is this song set in (C-Dawg, you know this I'm sure):

 

A long time ago came a man on a track

Walking thirty miles with a sack on his back

And he put down his load where he thought it was the best

He made a home in the wilderness

He built a cabin and a winter store

And he ploughed up the ground by the cold lake shore

And the other travellers came riding down the track

And they never went further and they never went back

Then came the churches then came the schools

Then came the lawyers then came the rules

Then came the trains and the trucks with their loads

And the dirty old track was the telegraph road

 

Then came the mines - then came the ore

Then there was the hard times then there was a war

Telegraph sang a song about the world outside

Telegraph road got so deep and so wide

Like a rolling river

 

And my radio says tonight it's gonna freeze

People driving home from the factories

There's six lanes of traffic

Three lanes moving slow

 

I used to like to go to work but they shut it down

I've got a right to go to work but there's no work here to be found

Yes and they say we're gonna have to pay what's owed

We're gonna have to reap from some seed that's been sowed

And the birds up on the wires and the telegraph poles

They can always fly away from this rain and this cold

You can hear them singing out their telegraph code

All the way down the telegraph road

 

You know I'd sooner forget but I remember those nights

When life was just a bet on a race between the lights

You had your head on my shoulder you had your hand in my hair

Now you act a little colder like you don't seem to care

But believe in me baby and I'll take you away

From out of this darkness and into the day

From these rivers of headlights these rivers of rain

From the anger that lives on the streets with these names

'cos I've run every red light on memory lane

I've seen desperation explode into flames

And I don't wanna see it again

 

From all of these signs saying sorry but we're closed

All the way down the telegraph road

 

Actually, the song was probably written about an English steel town that was going through the same convulsions as Youngstown at the same time. That's the way I always interpreted it.

I think Detroit. There was a lot of music coming out the the UK at the time about economic & political issues (like  "Ghost Town") but this was a rare one from across the pond about US hard times.  Knopfler was from Newcastle, which was a UK "gritty city" with a lot of problems similar to the rustbelt.  In fact the hard times of that era even made it into French music; they have a song about their rust belt,  the voice being that of out-of-work steelworker.  Forget the name.

 

 

This song was written in the 1940's by Ewan MacColl, and later covered by Rod Stewart on his first album, and by The Pogues in 1985.  It is written in reference to Salford, England in Greater Manchester, but could be about any number of American or British industrial cities.  Somehow this song wasn't in the recruiting material when I chose to my junior year abroad at the University of Salford...

 

Dirty Old Town ( The Pogues)

 

I met my love by the gas works wall

Dreamed a dream by the old canal

I Kissed my girl by the factory wall

Dirty old town

Dirty old town

 

Clouds are drifting across the moon

Cats are prowling on their beat

Spring's a girl from the streets at night

Dirty old town

Dirty old town

 

I Heard a siren from the docks

Saw a train set the night on fire

I Smelled the spring on the smoky wind

Dirty old town

Dirty old town

 

I'm gonna make me a big sharp axe

Shining steel tempered in the fire

I'll chop you down like an old dead tree

Dirty old town

Dirty old town

 

I met my love by the gas works wall

Dreamed a dream by the old canal

I kissed my girl by the factory wall

Dirty old town

Dirty old town

Dirty old town

Dirty old town

 

I chose this YouTube version for the video imagery rather than the musical talent.

 

Here's Dirty Old Town, The Warren, Ohio version...........

 

Being from the Warren area i recognize most of these shots..........WCI aka Severstal Steel, Delphi Packard Electric's Dana St. plants, the worst part of the SE side off of 169 (Niles Rd.), and some run down areas around N. Park.

The city was optimistic that the population would continue to grow, so they installed streets, hydrants, etc.

 

...so Youngstown had an empty quarter from even before the big 1970s shutdown?

 

 

 

Yes.  The NE part of town was started but never finished, WWII era I think. 

 

^It's either Toledo or Detroit. Telegraph Road is in both cities, and I guess it doesn't matter if it's Detroit or Toledo. They're in the same dire straits. I'm not too familiar with the band, but my guess is they played a show in Detroit or Toledo, had the "Jesus Christ, why are there so many closed factories?" reaction and wrote a song about it.

 

When I first got to Toledo and saw there was a Telegraph Rd, I immediately thought of that song.  I like Dire Straits a lot.  I figured the song was about that road (US 24?).  Presumably, the telegraph line in question connected those two towns.