Amtrak has issued a fact sheet on the 3C+D Corridor:

https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/3CD-Corridor-Fact-Sheet-05-17-Final.pdf

 

BTW, it's interesting that the first new routes that Amtrak is pushing is the Front Range Corridor (Pueblo-Denver-Cheyenne) and the 3C+D Corridor (click and scroll down)....

https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/resources/

 

On 5/24/2021 at 8:37 AM, KJP said:

 

AND

 

 

 

 

Will be interested to see if this is an issue at all in the Dem Primary for Governor. Nan Whaley is a vocal supporter while John Cranley is no fan of rail.

2 hours ago, Miami-Erie said:

 

 

Will be interested to see if this is an issue at all in the Dem Primary for Governor. Nan Whaley is a vocal supporter while John Cranley is no fan of rail.

 

It will be even more interesting to see what happens if he wins the Democratic nomination (which I think polling will show he will need to publicly support Amtrak expansion to get Democratic votes). Will he then change his tune to win GOP voters?

Cranley needs to stay in Cincy. Whaley seems to have more of a finger on the pulse of what this state needs in leadership.

8 hours ago, KJP said:

Amtrak has issued a fact sheet on the 3C+D Corridor:

https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/3CD-Corridor-Fact-Sheet-05-17-Final.pdf

 

BTW, it's interesting that the first new routes that Amtrak is pushing is the Front Range Corridor (Pueblo-Denver-Cheyenne) and the 3C+D Corridor (click and scroll down)....

https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/resources/

 

I think they’re a little bit off with the number Case Western Reserve students...which is actually 11,800 students!  (largest private school in Ohio...and even bigger than University of Dayton). 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Western_Reserve_University

 

 

Edited May 26, 20214 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

^ Why not include Columbus State? That's another 27k students. 

I guess they're considering that a commuter school, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least a few thousand students who have decided to move close to Columbus State.

I'll let them know.

15 hours ago, NEOBuckeye said:

Cranley needs to stay in Cincy. Whaley seems to have more of a finger on the pulse of what this state needs in leadership.

 

I honestly think Nan would beat him in Cincinnati too. She's very popular down here. 

I wonder what the timetable would look like for the 3 trains.

 

Departing from the termini at roughly 7am, 1pm, and 5pm perhaps?

Edited May 26, 20214 yr by greenville2

This is what was proposed 11 years ago

 

18 minutes ago, KJP said:

This is what was proposed 11 years ago

 

 

Why was it Lunken instead of Downtown Cincinnati? 

3 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Why was it Lunken instead of Downtown Cincinnati? 

 

The desire was to use NS's lightly used Oasis Line to come into the city from the northeast side and then along the river from the east. It avoided the freight traffic congestion of Queensgate Yard without having to build significant new rail infrastructure to create passenger-only track(s). Ultimately, a station at Lunken was scrapped in favor of one close to the Boathouse on the east side of downtown, even though it added another 10 minutes or so to the schedule. 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

The desire was to use NS's lightly used Oasis Line to come into the city from the northeast side and then along the river from the east. It avoided the freight traffic congestion of Queensgate Yard without having to build significant new rail infrastructure to create passenger-only track(s). Ultimately, a station at Lunken was scrapped in favor of one close to the Boathouse on the east side of downtown, even though it added another 10 minutes or so to the schedule. 

 

Gotcha. But the latest proposal comes into Union Terminal, correct?

^ Thanks for the timetable and response. I know it's from 11 years ago, but I was pretty close to what they were proposing. Seems like today would be similar as well.

 

Also, I know it's a mock timetable from 11 years ago, but it really makes you dream to see Ohio cities/towns on a train schedule. 

^ What you are saying might be true, but I'm sure it won't affect whether or not Ohio chooses to support Amtrak. Though it might become a convenient excuse when they choose yet again to turn down a large sum of money to expand our rail network.

5 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Gotcha. But the latest proposal comes into Union Terminal, correct?

 

No, that's just All Aboard Ohio's idea. Amtrak hasn't bought into it yet, citing its high costs. They can ramp up investments incrementally on the lakefront.

7 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Gotcha. But the latest proposal comes into Union Terminal, correct?

 

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

No, that's just All Aboard Ohio's idea. Amtrak hasn't bought into it yet, citing its high costs. They can ramp up investments incrementally on the lakefront.

I’m assuming DEPA is asking about the Cincinnati end - Union vs Lunken (or elsewhere), not the Cleveland Lakefront vs Terminal Tower question. 

Whoops, my bad assumption. Another assumption -- probably. I haven't heard if Amtrak is considering anything other than Cincinnati Union Terminal.

When should we expect federal action on this Amtrak plan? What level of supporter will the Ohio Statehouse have to commit to?

32 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

When should we expect federal action on this Amtrak plan? What level of supporter will the Ohio Statehouse have to commit to?

 

It's being introduced into Congress right now. If everything goes well, Congress should pass it by the end of this year.

 

In 2010, the first-year (2013) estimate of annual state support was $17 million, or $20 million today. As the route gains familiarity with more widespread acceptance (even without potential additional improvements to speed up the service), the annual operating subsidy should come down. I don't know by how much, but some states pay very little or nothing for their sponsorship. One example is Pennsylvania which pays nothing for its backing of the Pennsylvanian route to Pittsburgh. Another is Virginia. The new route to Roanoke hasn't required any state operating support after the first year of service. It's why Amtrak is willing to extend on its own dime the extensions of an Empire Corridor train to Cleveland and the Pennsylvanian to Cleveland.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Whoops, my bad assumption. Another assumption -- probably. I haven't heard if Amtrak is considering anything other than Cincinnati Union Terminal.

Derek Baumann has continually mentioned 5 trains a day (or something like that) from CUT. I’m not an expert by any means but I don’t think using CUT would be that expensive and using the Oasis line to get to Sharonville isn’t as direct. Now, they could use the Riverfront Transit Center but that’s even less likely and more expensive 

Amtrak's plan is for 3 daily round trips to Cleveland and 4 daily round trips to Chicago (doubt that includes a daily Cardinal which Senator Manchin will insist be part of any infrastructure package). So that works out to 16 trains a day in/out of Cincinnati. 

With the New River Gorge National Park now open, I wonder if the Cardinal would become a daily service to serve the tourists going to the park?

I'm going to assume CUT is going to be used since it's already served by the Cardinal and Amtrak has a lobby there.

47 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

With the New River Gorge National Park now open, I wonder if the Cardinal would become a daily service to serve the tourists going to the park?

I'm going to assume CUT is going to be used since it's already served by the Cardinal and Amtrak has a lobby there.

I think that is probably a few years down the road.  I'm already hearing that the locals near the Gorge are frustrated by the already-larger influx of visitors and the lack of facilities for them.  Once the pandemic ends it could be a mess. 

 

Also sounds like a good time to build a small hotel and restaurant nearby -- so where are the most likely train stops nearby?

 

Edited May 27, 20214 yr by Foraker

22 minutes ago, Foraker said:

I think that is probably a few years down the road.  I'm already hearing that the locals near the Gorge are frustrated by the already-larger influx of visitors and the lack of facilities for them.  Once the pandemic ends it could be a mess. 

 

Also sounds like a good time to build a small hotel and restaurant nearby -- so where are the most likely train stops nearby?

 

 

I doubt there will be additional station stops on the Cardinal in/near New River Gorge. What's there is there.

New Amtrak Connects US plan report. The service expansion detail at the end is fascinating to me....

https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Amtrak-2021-Corridor-Vision-May27_2021.pdf

 

Note that Amtrak shows the average distance traveled on its state-supported routes (everything under 750 miles) is about 125 miles -- in other words, the distance from Columbus to Cincinnati or Columbus to Cleveland. BTW, nice backwards shot of Cleveland on Page 33.

On 5/27/2021 at 2:19 PM, JaceTheAce41 said:

With the New River Gorge National Park now open, I wonder if the Cardinal would become a daily service to serve the tourists going to the park?

I'm going to assume CUT is going to be used since it's already served by the Cardinal and Amtrak has a lobby there.

I just went there this weekend, and I hate to throw cold water on your hopes, but the infrastructure is absolutely not there right now for getting around the park without a car. And even with a car, it could use Quite a bit of work. 

 

I checked out the Station at Thurmond, and even talked to the park rangers (or whatever they're called) about it. There is no Amtrak platform at Thurmond, it is a flag stop, and if anyone has a ticket that says Thurmond they stop in the road, and get out a stool. Thurmond is a cool old railroad town that is now virtually abandoned. It is hard enough to get there that the rangers told me about someone who rode the train and planned for a rental car agency to pick them up, only for the rental car not to show. 

 

I didn't check out Prince, the other station within the park, but it looks to let out to a small town of private inholdings, I think the same issues would exist. 

 

Bottom line, if anyone wants to take the train in, I'd advise they get off at one of the nearby towns (Hinton is pretty close!) And look into renting a car. (Though if you really want to ride into the park I won't stop you!) 

 

The tracks go through the whole park, so it would be sweet if they could be used as a frequent shuttle like service, but they are regularly used for moving freight, so no scenic railroad here. 

 

Moving from Flats development thread...

2 hours ago, KJP said:

...

And then there's the Flats Industrial RR which is also for sale. Their right of way extends to near Linndale. The Port Authority has shown some interest in it. The railroad owns some small parcels on Columbus Rd Peninsula. 

 

I assume the Flats Industrial RR RoW is parallel to the NS line west of W 25th? Wouldn’t that be ideal for Amtrak if the station is moved back to Tower City?

 

And the Scranton peninsula RoW would be great for a streetcar, although I realize that’s even more of a pipe dream.  Do they also own the RoW for the part that goes to the Carter Rd lift bridge?

 

It’d be great if the port buys it - I feel like that would put it in good hands. 

Yes, which is why I was in contact with the Port to urge their acquisition of the Flats Industrial RR. I also sent them this graphic......

 

On 6/6/2021 at 3:08 PM, KJP said:

Yes, which is why I was in contact with the Port to urge their acquisition of the Flats Industrial RR.

Has there been any update on this?

6 hours ago, Luke_S said:

Has there been any update on this?

 

Will Friedman contacted me about it and I gave him what info I had, but others are interested in buying the Flats Industrial RR too -- ranging from RR operators to real estate developers.

CFA = Franklin County Convention Facilities Authority

 

 

July 9, 2021

CFA launches downtown site study for possible Amtrak station

 

While federal funding for new Amtrak passenger rail service across Ohio is far from certain, the CFA is preparing for when and if it becomes a reality.

 

The CFA recently contracted with LMN Architects and HNTB Engineering to conduct a site assessment and programming study of three possible Amtrak station locations at or near the Greater Columbus Convention Center. LMN is a national firm with extensive CFA project experience and HNTB has served Amtrak as a general engineering consultant for more than 20 years, says CFA Executive Director Don Brown.

 

“This is a solid team to accomplish important groundwork in preparing for passenger rail service to Columbus,” Brown says. “LMN completed the Cleveland Convention Center’s 3-C Corridor rail station study in 2001, and the LMN and HNTB team has previously collaborated on Seattle’s master plan of rail lines and rail stations.”

 

In May, Amtrak officials met with city leaders throughout Ohio to educate them on its Connect US plan. Amtrak’s $75 billion proposal would expand passenger service to more than 160 new cities nationwide and add routes in 16 new states by 2035. Of central importance to Ohio, the plan would connect Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati. Passenger rail service could also be restored from Chicago through Columbus to Pittsburgh.

 

Derrick L. James, Amtrak’s senior manager for state and local legislative relations, told a May 19 Columbus Metropolitan Club  audience that general enthusiasm exists for more passenger rail among both consumers and city officials across the country.

 

“For the last couple of decades, we have delivered a product that consumers will ride, and our ridership increases have reflected that.” He said 32.5 million passengers rode Amtrak in the fiscal year 2019, the most ridership ever.

 

The open question is whether state and federal officials will also support expansion of Amtrak’s network in Ohio. James noted that Amtrak has always struggled against two prevailing views — one, that it is a business and should not rely on subsidies — the other, that it is an essential service worthy of public support, just as airport and highway systems have relied on government subsidies.

 

Under its current proposal Amtrak would provide the upfront capital to establish new routes and stations running and, after five years, state and local governments would step in to help where necessary.

 

The Biden administration’s original $2.2 trillion infrastructure proposal included $80 billion for repair, modernization and extension of passenger rail lines across the country. A bipartisan compromise recently reached with Senate members slashed the total to $1.2 trillion and included $66 billion for combined passenger and freight rail projects.

 

Brown says it’s too early to know what the final infrastructure package will include, but that completion of the site and programming study will best position Columbus for passenger rail service resumption.

 

“Our site study will start this month and take approximately 60 days to complete,” he says. “We know that when Amtrak service does return to Columbus, a downtown rail station at or near the Convention Center will offer easy access to all neighborhoods and visitor attractions.”

 

If a rail station is established at the Greater Columbus Convention Center, it would hearken back to times when passenger rail was a vital part of central Ohio’s transportation infrastructure. In fact, the Convention Center sits on the former site of Union Station, which was built in the late 1800s and served the city until 1977. Two other rail terminals previously operated on the site before the Union Station era.

 

SOURCE

https://www.meetusincolumbus.com/2021/07/09/cfa-launches-downtown-site-study-for-possible-amtrak-station/

 

More on the Lakeshore Rail Alliance:

 

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/advocates-push-for-increased-lakeshore-route-service/?RAchannel=news

 

Please please please on both the Tweet and the response. 

 

And what, no star for Dayton?

 

 

 

4 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Nice start.  (But once you get Cincinnati and Louisville, why not Lexington? and then Lexington-Nashville?)

Good catch by Tom Horsman - the more detailed Amtrak proposal released this week explicitly calls out a DTW (Detroit) Airport station on the CLE-Toledo-Detroit route. That’s good to see. 
 

 

Why does the yellow line go through Hamilton and the light blue line go through Sharonville/West Chester? It says Yellow denotes the route discussed here, and light blue is proposed so shouldn't they overlap?

 

I haven't looked back in history, but why Sharonville? Wouldn't Hamilton (or Middletown on the light blue line) make more sense and spread out the stations a little more.

Edited August 19, 20213 yr by ucgrady

10 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Why does the yellow line go through Hamilton and the light blue line go through Sharonville/West Chester? It says Yellow denotes the route discussed here, and light blue is proposed so shouldn't they overlap?

 

I haven't looked back in history, but why Sharonville? Wouldn't Hamilton (or Middletown on the light blue line) make more sense and spread out the stations a little more.

Not sure on the yellow line, but there definitely should be a stop of the 3C&D route in Middletown. I feel like that’s the biggest miss in Ohio on Amtrak’s proposal (considering their constraints). Even w a Middletown station, the Sharonville station still makes sense to serve the northern Cincinnati suburbs. 

Sharonville was favored because of access to I-275. Middletown was favored because of access to Hamilton without adding the travel time to Hamilton.

 

But looking ahead, I think we'll want 3C going through Hamilton -- because it could become a mostly passenger-only corridor with CHI-CIN trains south of Hamilton (plus future commuter rail) with CSX freights moved over to the NS line via Sharonville, after requisite traffic capacity enhancements there. Then I'd move the I-275 station over to the Tri-County Mall area. I'd also build bypass tracks for passenger trains around the west side of Queensgate Yard and move the downtown train station to below Second Street at the Banks. But that's just me.

2 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Good catch by Tom Horsman - the more detailed Amtrak proposal released this week explicitly calls out a DTW (Detroit) Airport station on the CLE-Toledo-Detroit route. That’s good to see. 
 

 

As a Toledoan, this is beyond exciting. Fast regular train service to Cleveland, Detroit Metro, downtown Detroit and Chicago would be outstanding for the Glass City, though probably the final nail in the coffin of passenger service at Toledo Express, which just lost its Charlotte flights last week. 

Edited August 19, 20213 yr by westerninterloper

15 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

As a Toledoan, this is beyond exciting. Fast regular train service to Cleveland, Detroit Metro, downtown Detroit and Chicago would be outstanding for the Glass City, though probably the final nail in the coffin of passenger service at Toledo Express, which just lost its Charlotte flights last week. 

I was intrigued by your comment regarding Toledo Express so I looked up passenger counts.  I was really surprised by the low numbers (Akron Canton's number was more than 3x times greater in 2019).  I know many people in Toledo fly out of Detroit Metro, especially since the wealthier Toledo suburbs are close to the Michigan border, but still very surprised.  I take it that its freight business is what keeps it going.

2 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I was intrigued by your comment regarding Toledo Express so I looked up passenger counts.  I was really surprised by the low numbers (Akron Canton's number was more than 3x times greater in 2019).  I know many people in Toledo fly out of Detroit Metro, especially since the wealthier Toledo suburbs are close to the Michigan border, but still very surprised.  I take it that its freight business is what keeps it going.

The Air National Guard base always makes for a good tenant as well.  

23 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

The Air National Guard base always makes for a good tenant as well.  

Yes, and private flights. Toledo Express was doing very well in the 1990s and early 2000s when Detroit Metro was building new terminals. But since those were completed about 15 years ago, coupled with the 2008 Recession, Toledo Express passenger traffic has cratered. I believe they only have regular flights to O'Hare and a few seasonal holiday destinations in Florida now. We almost exclusively fly out of Detroit because of the high number of direct and international flights. The few times we do fly out of Toledo Express it feels like our own private airport - TSA screening takes negative five minutes, parking is very cheap and close, and distances are short. That said, the necessity of transiting at O'Hare - never a happy thought - and lack of flights makes it a poor choice for us usually. 

 

Hourly or half-hourly trains to Detroit Metro from downtown Toledo would be a dream, even though it only takes us 45 minutes on rural six-lane interstates as it is. 

 

Toledo's wealthy suburbs include Sylvania in the far northwest of the metro area, is close to the Michigan border, but Perrysburg, Whitehouse, Maumee and Holland, the SW part of the metro area is perhaps the biggest concentration of wealth, and are much closer to Express. They would probably like a more robust offering of flights, but we live near downtown, and getting to DTW is almost as fast as getting to Toledo Express if we take the Ohio Turnpike and pay the toll $$. 

Edited August 19, 20213 yr by westerninterloper

54 minutes ago, westerninterloper said:

As a Toledoan, this is beyond exciting. Fast regular train service to Cleveland, Detroit Metro, downtown Detroit and Chicago would be outstanding for the Glass City, though probably the final nail in the coffin of passenger service at Toledo Express, which just lost its Charlotte flights last week. 

Well, it wouldn’t be “fast”. But I don’t think the travel time will be unreasonable. It’ll be WAY more important for Amtrak to figure how to be on schedule. And they’re only talking about 3 additional round trips - probably need to triple that for that route to really start living up to its potential. 

10 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Well, it wouldn’t be “fast”. But I don’t think the travel time will be unreasonable. It’ll be WAY more important for Amtrak to figure how to be on schedule. And they’re only talking about 3 additional round trips - probably need to triple that for that route to really start living up to its potential. 

I don't see any stops between Toledo and DTW planned; in any other country it would be faster to take the train, but I know the limits Amtrak struggles with. It's still nice to dream...I lived in Japan for five years and became very spoiled by their public transport. 

Hearing Brightline is interested in Chicago-Toledo-Detroit/Cleveland as well.