4 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Not sure on the yellow line, but there definitely should be a stop of the 3C&D route in Middletown. I feel like that’s the biggest miss in Ohio on Amtrak’s proposal (considering their constraints). Even w a Middletown station, the Sharonville station still makes sense to serve the northern Cincinnati suburbs. 

 

I think one issue that is going to have to be overcome is the directional traffic that NS and CSX has. IIRC both railroads share the lines through Hamilton and Sharonville with Southbound traffic going through Glendale to Hamilton and Northbound going to Sharonville. I could have that mixed up and local freights are exceptions and traffic heading from Cincy to Indy

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Hearing Brightline is interested in Chicago-Toledo-Detroit/Cleveland as well.

They might as well throw on Erie and Buffalo as well!  

About Brightline, they should be interested. In any other overdeveloped country in the world, there would be trains every 15-30 minutes between Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland. Overnight trains. Local and regional trains, excursion trains, express and superexpress.

 

It would take time to reorient Cleveland and especially Detroit to rail transit, but the bigger part of metro areas are only 75 years old. A city can be rebuilt in a couple decades, and will be, so we should orient them toward better transportation.  

9 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

I think one issue that is going to have to be overcome is the directional traffic that NS and CSX has. IIRC both railroads share the lines through Hamilton and Sharonville with Southbound traffic going through Glendale to Hamilton and Northbound going to Sharonville. I could have that mixed up and local freights are exceptions and traffic heading from Cincy to Indy

 

That's correct. I would focus all NS New Castle District traffic on that line south of Hamilton, as well as CSX Indianapolis Subdivision traffic on NS New Castle District south of Hamilton by building a new track connection just south of downtown Hamilton. And I'd reroute all through CSX Toledo Subdivision traffic over the NS Dayton District south of Dayton.

 

8 hours ago, Cleburger said:

They might as well throw on Erie and Buffalo as well!  

 

Brightline will not consider any routes that their marketing studies show could not produce 1 million riders or more per year with 110-125 mph operating speeds. Cleveland-Chicago alone would probably fall short in that regard, but when combined with Chicago-Detroit and Cleveland-Detroit, that provides a potential "network."

12 hours ago, westerninterloper said:

It would take time to reorient Cleveland and especially Detroit to rail transit, but the bigger part of metro areas are only 75 years old. A city can be rebuilt in a couple decades, and will be, so we should orient them toward better transportation.  

How long would it really take considering how much of Cleveland and Detroit has been depopulated? There are so many empty lots waiting for development, especially in Detroit. I don't know how much the Interstate acts as a barrier to prevent long-term redevelopment though.

22 minutes ago, Dev said:

How long would it really take considering how much of Cleveland and Detroit has been depopulated? There are so many empty lots waiting for development, especially in Detroit. I don't know how much the Interstate acts as a barrier to prevent long-term redevelopment though.

 

The south/SW side of Detroit and the west side of Cleveland have seen little abandonment. So either use an existing RR ROW, highway ROW or undertake major demolitions to enter Detroit and Cleveland from those directions. And SW Detroit has a lot of large, sprawling industrial areas too. You may also have to cross the navigable River Rouge and you will have to cross the navigable Cuyahoga River to enter both downtowns.

The article also notes that Amtrak plans to spend $250,000 over the next year to improve parking and signage at its hard-to-find station, located just off the Shoreway. The station’s parking lot will be closed for a week, starting Monday...

 

Northern Ohio leaders lobby for increased Amtrak service in anticipation of major infrastructure investment

Published: 1:00 p.m. Aug. 20, 2021

By Susan Glaser

 

Local passenger rail advocates in Cleveland have a message for Amtrak and other officials, as they contemplate how and where to invest the money: “Don’t spend it all in one place,” said Grace Gallucci, executive director of the Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency, the transportation planning group for the region.

 

In other words, don’t send it all to the East Coast, where passenger rail travel is already well established.

 

“As Amtrak officials start to think about how to spend that money, we want to demonstrate the importance of the Great Lakes,” she said.

 

Her office recently organized a meeting of transportation planners and members of Congress from Ohio, Indiana and Illinois, with the goal of crafting a unified message: We want better train service here, too.

 

“Right now, there’s been almost no focus on Cleveland to Chicago, while the East Coast corridor is getting a lot of attention,” said U.S. Rep. Marcy Kaptur, a Democrat from Toledo, who helped organize the meeting. “These are some of our most important cities.”

 

MORE

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/08/northern-ohio-leaders-lobby-for-increased-amtrak-service-in-anticipation-of-major-infrastructure-investment.html

 

So while I had been thinking about quitting AAO for several years following decades of futility, the straw that broke my back was a phone call I had this past week with an Amtrak executive. We were discussing the federal infrastructure bill that promises the biggest federal investment in passenger rail in U.S. history. So I should be hopeful, right? Not exactly.

 

The Amtrak executive said in the Senate infrastructure bill that the House is going to pass in October, Amtrak isn't going to directly receive funding to be able to initiate all of the proposed new routes on their own. Instead, the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) is going to develop a list of new/expanded routes and then rank them in terms of ridership, revenue, cost and benefits. States would then apply to the FRA for money to develop the highest-ranking routes.

 

Now, I don't doubt that certain Ohio routes (3C+D, Cle-Tol-Det, Cincy-Indy-Chi, Cle extensions of NY & PA trains, etc) would rank highly, I do doubt that Ohio would apply for the money for them. Also, note that the Ohio agency responsible for developing passenger rail service, the Ohio Rail Development Commission (ORDC), is required (per its enabling legislation) to plan for and pursue 3C+D first.

 

So even if a low-cost expansion of service on existing Amtrak routes (like the Cle extensions of NY & PA trains) is a great way for Ohio to dip in its toe to test the passenger rail waters, ORDC has used its enabling legislation as a cop-out to do nothing. The ORDC director is a don't-rock-the-boat kind of guy. Yes, 3C+D is the most promising route in Ohio but will be very expensive to develop. It's the heaviest political lift. It requires rocking the boat. ORDC has shied away from even discussing it ever since Kasich gave back $400 million Ohio had won from the FRA in 2010.

 

And, since these will be competitive applications, the states that contribute more of their own money vs. what other states contribute, thus reducing the federal share, will win the grants. And, of course, since no transportation mode is unsubsidized (we externalize highway/aviation costs of usage in different ways), Amtrak services will have to be purchased by the states. Ohio is unlikely to provide operating subsidies for trains to purchase those services. The FRA is going to want to see that Ohio and Amtrak have signed an operating subsidy agreement before investing the start-up capital. The FRA is an investor, and they're going to want to see that the trains they've capitalized will be running for at least 20-30 years in order to get a return on their investment.

 

If a state is unwilling to make that kind of commitment, they're not going to ask for and receive expanded service. Ohio hasn't been willing in the 38 years I've been involved in AAO/OARP and I don't see that changing anytime soon. So if you want to live in a state with at least usable passenger rail service, I have only one suggestion -- move.

^ That is incredibly frustrating to hear but not at all surprising. The long-term repercussions of gerrymandering playing out in real time.

 

On the outside chance that the Amtrak service does get approved in Ohio, are there any guesses what kind of rolling stock they would use?

13 minutes ago, Dev said:

^ That is incredibly frustrating to hear but not at all surprising. The long-term repercussions of gerrymandering playing out in real time.

 

On the outside chance that the Amtrak service does get approved in Ohio, are there any guesses what kind of rolling stock they would use?

 

Just a guess, but everyone (Amtrak, Brightline, etc) likes Siemens' trains. 

 

 

An exterior view....

 

 

And to get an idea of what the interiors may be like, Siemens also made similar cars for Brightline. Here's a ride aboard their Florida service.....

 

 

On 9/26/2021 at 5:57 PM, KJP said:

So while I had been thinking about quitting AAO for several years following decades of futility, the straw that broke my back was a phone call I had this past week with an Amtrak executive. We were discussing the federal infrastructure bill that promises the biggest federal investment in passenger rail in U.S. history. So I should be hopeful, right? Not exactly.

 

The Amtrak executive said in the Senate infrastructure bill that the House is going to pass in October, Amtrak isn't going to directly receive funding to be able to initiate all of the proposed new routes on their own. Instead, the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) is going to develop a list of new/expanded routes and then rank them in terms of ridership, revenue, cost and benefits. States would then apply to the FRA for money to develop the highest-ranking routes.

 

Now, I don't doubt that certain Ohio routes (3C+D, Cle-Tol-Det, Cincy-Indy-Chi, Cle extensions of NY & PA trains, etc) would rank highly, I do doubt that Ohio would apply for the money for them. Also, note that the Ohio agency responsible for developing passenger rail service, the Ohio Rail Development Commission (ORDC), is required (per its enabling legislation) to plan for and pursue 3C+D first.

 

So even if a low-cost expansion of service on existing Amtrak routes (like the Cle extensions of NY & PA trains) is a great way for Ohio to dip in its toe to test the passenger rail waters, ORDC has used its enabling legislation as a cop-out to do nothing. The ORDC director is a don't-rock-the-boat kind of guy. Yes, 3C+D is the most promising route in Ohio but will be very expensive to develop. It's the heaviest political lift. It requires rocking the boat. ORDC has shied away from even discussing it ever since Kasich gave back $400 million Ohio had won from the FRA in 2010.

 

And, since these will be competitive applications, the states that contribute more of their own money vs. what other states contribute, thus reducing the federal share, will win the grants. And, of course, since no transportation mode is unsubsidized (we externalize highway/aviation costs of usage in different ways), Amtrak services will have to be purchased by the states. Ohio is unlikely to provide operating subsidies for trains to purchase those services. The FRA is going to want to see that Ohio and Amtrak have signed an operating subsidy agreement before investing the start-up capital. The FRA is an investor, and they're going to want to see that the trains they've capitalized will be running for at least 20-30 years in order to get a return on their investment.

 

If a state is unwilling to make that kind of commitment, they're not going to ask for and receive expanded service. Ohio hasn't been willing in the 38 years I've been involved in AAO/OARP and I don't see that changing anytime soon. So if you want to live in a state with at least usable passenger rail service, I have only one suggestion -- move.

Well, I kick around moving back to Ohio sometimes. But it looks like this young professional will be staying away and working and paying taxes elsewhere for a while. Thanks for nothing, Ohio.

1 hour ago, greenville2 said:

Well, I kick around moving back to Ohio sometimes. But it looks like this young professional will be staying away and working and paying taxes elsewhere for a while. Thanks for nothing, Ohio.

 

But hear me out. You should move back and help change the culture. That's what I did. And while there have been lots of disappointments, I haven't regretted it yet. I found an awesome progressive community and I've gotten involved. It's been much easier to make an impact at the neighborhood and city level than it was in bigger cities on the coast.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

 

Just a guess, but everyone (Amtrak, Brightline, etc) likes Siemens' trains.

 

So, KJP, given the apparent evaporation of our hopes for an Amtrak 3C+D, how do we spark interest from Brightline?  Would the Republicans in the legislature be happier to kick them some "tax breaks" because they're a private company and not Amtrak?

Is it fair to say that our only hope for Amtrak expansion is that either:

• Nan Whaley is our next governor (not likely)
• The Ohio Supreme Court draws their own legislative maps after throwing out the Republicans maps and the General Assembly forces the issue (even less likely)

21 hours ago, Foraker said:

 

So, KJP, given the apparent evaporation of our hopes for an Amtrak 3C+D, how do we spark interest from Brightline?  Would the Republicans in the legislature be happier to kick them some "tax breaks" because they're a private company and not Amtrak?

 

Go back and see how they proceeded in Florida.

On 9/27/2021 at 5:55 PM, Foraker said:

 

So, KJP, given the apparent evaporation of our hopes for an Amtrak 3C+D, how do we spark interest from Brightline?  Would the Republicans in the legislature be happier to kick them some "tax breaks" because they're a private company and not Amtrak?

I doubt Brightline would ever touch the 3C+D corridor. The State keeps expanding 71 and 75 making a possible connection less competitive. Why would they risk their resources if they are going to be continually undercut?

Only if you look at them as 100% direct competitors.

49 minutes ago, Dev said:

I doubt Brightline would ever touch the 3C+D corridor. The State keeps expanding 71 and 75 making a possible connection less competitive. Why would they risk their resources if they are going to be continually undercut?

 

Brightline will only consider those routes which promise 1 million+ riders per year, according to their ridership studies. As promising as 3C+D is, it probably couldn't hit 1 million+ riders per year unless it operated at 125 mph or higher. That also means dedicated tracks. There aren't duplicated RR ROWs or flat highway ROWs for them to use to get dedicated ROWs.

 

Brightline likes CLE-TOL-DET-CHI because it offers three corridors in one, and if CHI-DET by itself at 110-125 mph can't attract 1 million riders per year, it might come pretty close. Throw in CLE-CHI and CLE-DET and Brightline sees that as putting them over the 1 million threshold.

3 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Only if you look at them as 100% direct competitors.

Yes, the Interstate is a direct competition with intercity rail and the Statehouse has little interest in disinvesting from it

ODOT can invest in I-71 all they want but it's unlikely to be any faster, or any cheaper, offer better urban core access, allow drivers to be more productive, enjoy any better amenities, provide more positive social interaction, offer better en route food/beverage service or have a higher standard of travel than it offers right now.

^ Yes, absolutely. It's too bad the State of Ohio doesn't see those benefits too.

7 minutes ago, Dev said:

^ Yes, absolutely. It's too bad the State of Ohio doesn't see those benefits too.

 

Or, many Ohio travelers. They just don't know what they're missing.

43 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Or, many Ohio travelers. They just don't know what they're missing.

And that's huge -- because most Ohioans don't know what they're missing, the highway lobby's job is a piece of cake.  But I think people are starting to see that three busy lanes of traffic are miserable enough and four won't change that experience.

 

Plus, a lot of Ohioans go to Florida and will have the opportunity to experience Brightline trains in the coming years.  Particularly as Ohioans grow older and have more trouble driving, I'm hopeful that they'll fly to Florida, take the train, and come home wanting that same convenience here.  Overly optimistic, perhaps, but Brightline's operations in Florida could become the last grain of sand that causes a cascade of train-positive sentiment in Ohio.

55 minutes ago, Foraker said:

And that's huge -- because most Ohioans don't know what they're missing, the highway lobby's job is a piece of cake.  But I think people are starting to see that three busy lanes of traffic are miserable enough and four won't change that experience.

 

Plus, a lot of Ohioans go to Florida and will have the opportunity to experience Brightline trains in the coming years.  Particularly as Ohioans grow older and have more trouble driving, I'm hopeful that they'll fly to Florida, take the train, and come home wanting that same convenience here.  Overly optimistic, perhaps, but Brightline's operations in Florida could become the last grain of sand that causes a cascade of train-positive sentiment in Ohio.

 

I just experienced this on my trip to DC. I thought having light rail would be something nice. Turns out it's even better than I could imagined. It makes me way more sad about Cincinnati's attempts at getting it. 

 

I would do just about anything to have the convenience of sitting on a train for a few hours to get from Cincinnati to Cleveland rather than have to bore myself crazy driving 4 hours. I make this drive back and forth nearly 3 times a month and it's probably one of the worst drives I've ever done.

I just moved back to Ohio from Utah and I used light rail and commuter rail frequently. I commuted 45 miles each way via commuter rail and while it was "technically" slower, it was so nice to sit back and watch Netflix instead of fighting traffic for 45 min to an hour. It was especially helpful in bad weather. I was willing to have a slightly slower ride for less stress but when traffic was bad (which was most days) it was about the same amount of time.

 

My wife commuted to the University of Utah for 8 years via TRAX (light rail) every day and the convenience of not having to drive into town for a sporting event, show, or night out was huge. I'd like to get a rail advocacy group going here in Hamilton County as the bones are there and there might be a lot of Federal $ coming up

 

Why not establish a local meeting of All Aboard Ohio? 

20 hours ago, RealAdamP said:

I make this drive back and forth nearly 3 times a month and it's probably one of the worst drives I've ever done.

Wow, this sounds like absolute torture.

1 hour ago, Dev said:

Wow, this sounds like absolute torture.

 

With how straight and bland I71 is I kind of prefer going a longer route just to have some scenery. Turning it into a train ride where I could be productive and relaxed would be life changing.

2 hours ago, Dev said:

Wow, this sounds like absolute torture.

 

Lawmakers make the drive weekly when the General Assembly is in session and state officials maintain a large pool of vehicles for conducting state business. I researched and wrote a report during the 3C Quick Start project and debate on how 3C trains could save the state money. One of the biggest cost savings was from state employees taking the train instead of using state motor vehicles or expensing travel in their personal cars. Here is the information from that section of the report that was never picked up by any local media or championed by any lawmaker....

 

APPENDIX II 
Saving taxpayers’ money I 
Impacts of 3C Corridor passenger rail 
State employee travel savings 

All Aboard Ohio estimates the state could be much more fiscally 
responsible by having state employees take the train, where possible, on 
state business in the 3-C Corridor. Fortunately, most state office buildings 
are in downtown areas, near where train stations will be located. Today the 
options for state employees are to drive state motor pool vehicles or use 
their own cars and then expense the trip. 
 
The Ohio Department of Administrative Services seeks to control escalating 
state motor pool costs as the expenses of owning and operating a car keep 
rising. At 54 cents per mile, AAA says it costs $8,100 per year to own and 
operate a mid-sized sedan 15,000 miles annually. That’s an increase from 
41 cents per mile in 1995 and 49 cents in 2000 (for 2009 data, see:
http://www.aaaexchange.com/Assets/Files/200948913570.DrivingCosts2009.pdf ). 

This summer, Ohio DAS increased the base cost of driving a state motor 
pool car from $19.50 to $20 per day, and the mileage cost by five cents 
per mile to 26 cents (see detail on next page). The 3-C Corridor is an 
effective way for the state to get those costs under control. 
State employees, including staff at state universities, could reduce travel 
and overtime costs incurred by the state by $204 per person-trip. Cost 
savings would come from the general revenue fund. 

All Aboard Ohio has encouraged the state to use this cost savings to 
financially support the 3-C Corridor trains. This answers a question posed 
by some state legislators how the state expects to sustain 3-C Corridor 
operations over the long term. The state would have the incentive to 
continue to support train services, for without the trains the state would 
return to incurring higher costs. 

All Aboard Ohio analyzed the costs of a state employee traveling in the 3-C 
Corridor. While cost data was provided from the Ohio Environmental 
Protection Agency (EPA), the data appears to be consistent among all state 
agencies. 

APPENDICES - Net Fiscal Impact of 3C “Quick Start” – PAGE 10

 

Cost for a state employee to drive Cleveland - Columbus 

 

Basic data used in calculations
Distance: ~140 miles (one way) 
Estimated travel time: 2.5 hours (one way) 
Estimated employee wages: $25.00/hour (conservative estimate). 
Motor pool cost (based upon 
motor pool rates in use at 
Ohio EPA): $20.00/day + 26 cents/mile + gas 
(recently increased from $19.50/day + 21 
cents/mile). 
Vehicle: Ford Taurus (or similar commonly used 
state vehicle) at an estimated 27 mpg. 
Vehicle cost (At 280 miles round trip) 
$20 + 280 miles @ 26 cents/mile = $ 92.80 
+10.37 gallons of gasoline @ $2.50/gallon = $ 25.93
Sub-Total: $118.73 
Employee cost
5 hours drive time@ $25.00/hour = $125.00
Total: $243.73

 

Drive time is lost productivity because employees can’t get work done while 
driving except perhaps phone calls which is not necessarily safe. However 
on a 3-C Corridor train, an employee can get work done such as phone 
calls, e-mail, conference calls, paperwork, etc. 

 

Notes:
$ Employee costs do not include the potential for overtime. 
$ Figures are based on an employee traveling alone.
$ Use of the train also reduces greenhouse-gas emissions. 

 

State Motor Pool considerations:
Since all state offices and other destinations an employee may need to 
reach may not be located within walking distance or reasonable public 
transit distance from the train stations, the state vehicle motor pool could 
be reduced and re-configured to work intermodally with the 3-C Corridor 
trains. This would optimize the overall efficiency for many employee trips. 

 

The state could have motor pool vehicles located at, or very close to the 3-
C Corridor transportation centers in major cities (or establish a contract 
with a car-sharing company like ZipCar or CityWheels). This way an 
employee could take a train, get work done along the way, then quickly and 
easily pick up a car to complete his/her trip. 

In the following conclusions, the average round-trip rail fare (Amtrak’s 
average fares in the Midwest are 14 cents per mile) and local transit 
connection in the 3-C Corridor is assumed to be $40 per person. 

APPENDICES - Net Fiscal Impact of 3C “Quick Start” – PAGE 11

Conclusions:
+ If 50 state employees are driving per workday in the 3-C Corridor, that’s 
$3 million per year, less $500,000 for rail fare. 
State could save $2.5 million per year. 
+ If 100 state employees are driving per workday in the 3-C Corridor, that’s 
$6 million per year, less $1 million for rail fare.
State could save $5 million per year. 
+ If 200 state employees are driving per workday in the 3-C Corridor, that’s 
$12 million per year, less $2 million for rail fare. 
State could save $10 million per year. 

 

It is likely that hundreds of state employees are driving every workday 
between the major cities of the 3-C Corridor. That assumption is based on 
the fact that the 3-C Corridor has two-thirds of the state’s population and it 
has Ohio’s capital city where most state government offices are located. 
The largest numbers of state employees are located in Ohio’s other large 
cities. More state employees travel between the largest cities in the 3-C 
Corridor than anywhere else in Ohio. 

According to the Department of Administrative Services, state agencies 
spent $18.4 million for travel in 2008 (for cost details, see: 
http://www.das.ohio.gov/gsd/Fleet/pdf/FleetAnnualReport__FY2008.pdf).
Two-thirds of $18.4 million is $12.27 million, which roughly equals the 
total projected state operating support for 3-C Corridor passenger trains. 
 
Those estimates don’t fully account for agencies and state universities 
reimbursing employees for travel in their own vehicles. The IRS in 2009 
estimates the cost of driving at 55 cents per mile for business travel 
deduction purposes. Parking expenses aren’t included in the IRS data. It is 
not known how large the reimbursed travel expenses are. But, as of 2007, 
the state is attempting to capture and track those costs through the 
required use of the Fleet credit card and the FleetOhio Management 
Information System. 

 

 

 

Ohio looms large in Amtrak’s infrastructure spending plans

https://www.daytondailynews.com/local/ohio-looms-large-in-amtraks-infrastructure-spending-plans/D5KUSQ4M3BHL3OTXAPSJMZSSXU/

Ohio passenger rail group wants Gov. Mike DeWine to support proposed Amtrak service between Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2021/11/ohio-passenger-rail-group-wants-gov-mike-dewine-to-support-proposed-amtrak-service-between-cleveland-columbus-cincinnati.html

 

I appreciate Susan Glaser’s regular articles on passenger rail and Amtrak. Thanks AAO for the advocacy. 
 

I also think that if DeWine had been the R gov elected in 2010 rather than Kasich that we’d have the 3C&D already running and would be going for speed improvements and route expansion in this go-around. 
 

“CLEVELAND – The head of a passenger rail advocacy group is calling on Gov. Mike DeWine and state legislative leaders to start pushing for Ohio’s share of new Amtrak funding, included in the new infrastructure bill, in the hopes of reviving plans for train service between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati.

“The governor needs to step up,” said Stu Nicholson, executive director of All Aboard Ohio. “The time for looking into it and examining it is done. There is real money on the table. Ohio needs to take this seriously.”

 

Developing more passenger rail connections is on the agenda of Toledo's City Council
https://www.toledoblade.com/local/city/2021/11/19/council-to-consider-study-for-toledo-to-columbus-train-route/stories/20211119142

3 hours ago, KJP said:

Developing more passenger rail connections is on the agenda of Toledo's City Council
https://www.toledoblade.com/local/city/2021/11/19/council-to-consider-study-for-toledo-to-columbus-train-route/stories/20211119142

Does anyone know how supportive the Toledo government is about the long-proposed I-73? I am curious if they would prefer passenger rail, and if the Interstate extension is mostly being driven from non-City organizations and businesses.

Not sure where to post this, but since it should be a lesson for Ohio governments, I'll put it here.  EasyJet, a European budget airline, says they won't attempt flying a route if the train time between the two points is three hours or less.  The passengers have decided that the airport hassle isn't worth any time saving.  This certainly speaks well for any combination of stops on the 3C+D line, except Cincy/Dayton - Cleveland.

 

https://simpleflying.com/why-easyjet-does-not-operate-flights-where-trains-are-3-hours-or-less/

Edited November 30, 20213 yr by Dougal

^Even CLE-Louisville, and certainly CLE-Chicago, would be under 3 hours on modern high speed rail. 

On 11/28/2021 at 3:30 PM, Dougal said:

Not sure where to post this, but since it should be a lesson for Ohio governments, I'll put it here.  EasyJet, a European budget airline, says they won't attempt flying a route if the train time between the two points is three hours or less.  The passengers have decided that the airport hassle isn't worth any time saving.  This certainly speaks well for any combination of stops on the 3C+D line, except Cincy/Dayton - Cleveland.

 

https://simpleflying.com/why-easyjet-does-not-operate-flights-where-trains-are-3-hours-or-less/

Earlier this year, France forced Air France to cut back on these kind of routes as part of a bailout package.

 

Funds sought for Cleveland-Chicago rail development plan
By Ken Prendergast / November 30, 2021

 

Agencies between Cleveland and Chicago have joined forces to request federal funds to identify how best to expand freight and passenger rail services on the busy Norfolk Southern (NS) Corp.-owned rail line that links those metro areas.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2021/11/30/funds-sought-for-cleveland-chicago-rail-development-plan/

So it sounds like this can move forward independent of the State's support of the broader Amtrak expansion in Ohio?

 

Would there be any direct benefit to the Port? 

12 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

So it sounds like this can move forward independent of the State's support of the broader Amtrak expansion in Ohio?

 

Would there be any direct benefit to the Port? 

 

No. A state is still going to have to provide operating support for any expanded service. Illinois won't do it because Chicago is going to get served no matter what. Indiana won't fund the operating costs and I don't expect Ohio will either. But at least our nighttime trains might end up being faster and more reliable.

21 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

So it sounds like this can move forward independent of the State's support of the broader Amtrak expansion in Ohio?

 

Would there be any direct benefit to the Port? 

 

9 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

No. A state is still going to have to provide operating support for any expanded service. Illinois won't do it because Chicago is going to get served no matter what. Indiana won't fund the operating costs and I don't expect Ohio will either. But at least our nighttime trains might end up being faster and more reliable.

 

The state government seems to be leaning anti-rail (ha!), so state support seems highly unlikely.  We'll need to keep working convincing the state government to change their mind while at the same time find a way to work around them.  Could the county port authorities along the route join together to provide operating support, at least for a trial?

 

Maybe the county port authorities along the route provide support for two years and if the ridership numbers hit a certain number the state would agree to take over.  Or at least if the numbers are good maybe city and county governments along the route would be better able to justify the ongoing expense to local voters.

 

All "services" cost money -- someone has to be willing to pay for the service.

There is a federal program Restoration & Enhancement grants that the sponsor of a new service can tap for operating funds for a limited period of time, something like 3 years. I haven't seen the new federal infrastructure law in detail so I don't know what if anything has changed with this program. But the sponsor has to agree to provide the operating support after the R&E grant expires. And the sponsor has to be a state, a state-chartered agency or a consortium of states.

Informative thread on a viable path to expanded Amtrak service in OH. Summary - since we are unlikely to get support from the state, it’s good news that there is precedence for local governments providing the operating subsidy in order to support the service. (Specifically the city of Mobile Alabama supporting the restored service to New Orleans).  I’m hoping a Cleveland / Sandusky / Toledo coalition can get the Chicago route going. And maybe CLE / Columbus / Dayton / Cincinnati and all those beautiful rail fans in Crestline can work together to get the 3C&D going. 
 

 

 

 

 

On 11/30/2021 at 5:21 PM, Foraker said:

The state government seems to be leaning anti-rail (ha!), so state support seems highly unlikely.  We'll need to keep working convincing the state government to change their mind while at the same time find a way to work around them.  Could the county port authorities along the route join together to provide operating support, at least for a trial?

 

The leadership in Ohio is so backwards, this is what they are dreaming for and secretly planning for I-71 between Cincinnati and Cleveland:

 

18 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

The leadership in Ohio is so backwards, this is what they are dreaming for and secretly planning for I-71 between Cincinnati and Cleveland:

 

I’d love to see a new barf reaction emoji as one of the choices.

Since it seems that Amtrak service between the 3-Cs is stalled, what about the expanded Cincinnati to Chicago service? Are we waiting on Indiana to approve anything?