This is an important meeting. if you have even a PASSING interest in reforming Ohio's sorry transportation "system", you'll find the time to come.

 

It's time for a change.

 

KJP: I think you have an error...ORDC's speaker won't be Seney, I'd bet.

I just posted what was on the AAO site. The listing of Jim Seney as "interim executive director" of the ORDC caught my eye.

AAO will have a new agenda soon.

Cool. I corrected the agenda.

CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC

RENOVATING THE OLD TRAIN STATION

County administrator sees promise, but costs are a concern

 

The Chronicle-Telegram

 

The old New York Central train depot on East Avenue in Elyria is a battered building with peeling paint and graffiti marring newly exposed remainders of its glory days.

 

http://www.chroniclet.com/Daily%20Pages/020907head8.html

Given that one of the major parts of the Ohio Hub is to create seamless connections between air and rail, I thought this article from Michigan was interesting.  One of the airports the Ohio Hub would connect to is Detroit Metro.

 

Trains to Planes Without Automobiles

By: Jon Zemke

 

February 6, 2007

 

Traveling to and from Detroit Metropolitan Airport without a car is not easily done.

 

Joydeep Dasmunshi will tell you all about it. The University of Michigan Law School student flies in and out of Metro Airport about twice a month for school, business and family visits.

 

On a good day the 24-year-old can get a ride to the airport from a friend. A normal day means spending $20 on an airport shuttle. An expensive day means paying about $50 for a taxi. Long-term parking costs $10 a day.

 

A lot of other Metro Detroiters share Dasmunshi's pain. More than 36 million passengers flew through Metro Airport in 2005, making it the 11th largest airport in the nation and 17th largest in the world. Its total economic impact is estimated at $5.2 billion annually, making it a key economic engine for southeastern Michigan. A vast majority of the people who come to and from the airport do so with personal automobiles, using the facility's 20,000 parking spaces on its 6,700 acres.

 

Read more at:

 

http://www.modeldmedia.com/features/a2transit80.aspx

Thanks, noozer... I didn't realize the light rail was nixed... I agree, commuter rail is the smartest option for the corridor, but won't really meet the needs for most airport users -- 6 to 12 trips simply isn't enough (unless the 12 trips are round trip btw the airport and downtown Detroit).  Hourly service isn't the ideal, but a humongous leap over what exists now... Then comes the much-discussed problem of routing passengers directly into downtown and not just the fringes at either the New Center Amtrak or the currently-crumbling Michigan Central depot, both of which are outside of downtown.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this project continues without the light rail component. 

It'd be nice to see this depot restored to even close to what it once was. It would make a nice stop for Ohio Hub trains in the Cleveland-Chicago Corridor.

It sure would. We need to find a way to get funding to get the platforms in palce and get Amtrak to commit to serving the station.

From what I could pick up off of Local Live, the station appears to be located very near to the downtown area.  The potential for TOD looks to be very strong for this location if effective intercity or commuter rail were implemented in this corridor.  Not to jump the gun, but have there been any discussion for a commuter rail service for Cleveland to Elyria, a la the Cleveland to Lorain efforts?

KJP could answer that question better than me, but I have to believe commuter service would be a more difficult proposition here because we would be operating on a heavily traveled mainline railroad instead of a lightly used line, as is the case with Lorain-Cleveland. The best possibility would be to dovetail such a service with the Ohio Hub plan, which would call for increased capacity anyway. Otherwise, we would have to find substantial federal transit capital, a drawn-out proposition. If those issues could be addressed, then a commuter train to Elyria makes sense...after the Lorain train is up and running. If that service is a success, it would be much easier to make the case for Elyria.

 

Actually, an Elyria-Cleveland train should stop at Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport and that's tricky. You have to have a stop outside the airport, with moving walkways or shuttle buses into the terminal or route the line thru the terminal via underground tunnel. Probably not feasible as a stand-alone project, but much more realistic if bundled with the Ohio Hub proposal. The terminal could thus serve Ohio Hub trains to Detroit, Columbus, Dayton, Cincinnati, as well as Chicago. RTA Red line, buses and the Elyria-Cleveland commuter service could also call at Hopkins...

 

More realisically, we'd probably see service out to Euclid or Solon before that happens. Both of those ore on lightly used lines and are heavily populated.

 

Hmmm. Sounds almost European! :-D

 

Yes, the station is in downtown Elyria...and yes, it would be a great location for new Urbanist infill development.

 

 

You would probably see Ohio Hub trains serve the commuter market between Cleveland and Elyria.  The trip frequencies would be such that a morning and evening commute wouldn't be difficult.

I agree with Noozer. A variation based on what Noozer talks about is to do what Via Rail Canada does in Toronto. Their first-morning and last-evening trains to/from Windsor and Montreal don't originate and terminate at Toronto Union Station. Instead, they operate through to the other side of the metro area.

 

The morning train to Windsor and the afternoon train from Windsor originates/terminates at Oshawa (some 30 miles east of TUS) and makes an enroute stop at suburban Guildwood. Meanwhile, the morning train to Montreal and the afternoon train from Montreal originates/terminates at Aldershot (near Hamilton, some 30 miles west of Toronto) and makes an enroute stop at suburban Oakville.

 

In Greater Cleveland, you could have a morning train to Columbus and Cincinnati originate in Mentor and make an enroute stop in Euclid before pulling into the North Coast Transportation Center in downtown Cleveland. An afternoon train from Cincinnati and Columbus could pause in downtown Cleveland before heading out to Euclid and Mentor. A morning train from Cleveland to Chicago or Detroit could originate in Canton or Akron and return to those same cities in the evening. And morning trains to Buffalo/Toronto and Pittsburgh could originate in Elyria, stop at Hopkins Airport before heading to downtown Cleveland. Reverse that pattern westbound in the evenings.

 

The evening/night trains returning to Cleveland from Cincinnati, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, Pittsburgh, etc. would probably pause in downtown Cleveland well after rush hour is over, so those trains probably wouldn't be too useful for commuters. But they could be decent trains for intercity rail travelers, those heading home from downtown sporting events and activities, and people making rail connections from Hopkins Airport.

 

Commuters might be able to use afternoon departures from downtown Cleveland whose ultimate destinations are Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Toronto, etc. but make a couple of station stops at places like Elyria, Mentor, Hudson and the like. That will depend on negotiations with the freight railroads, how the trains are scheduled and what capital improvements are needed/can be afforded.

That's true. I was aware of what VIA was doing and it makes a lot of sense. I hadn't thought of that.

. Otherwise, we would have to find substantial federal transit capital, a drawn-out proposition. If those issues could be addressed, then a commuter train to Elyria makes sense...after the Lorain train is up and running. If that service is a success, it would be much easier to make the case for Elyria.

 

 

But if an intercity train serves a commuter purpose, a state can use its federal share of gas tax monies to fund it.  At least I think that's what KJP said at one time.  Or am I misremembering?

 

 

But if an intercity train serves a commuter purpose, a state can use its federal share of gas tax monies to fund it.  At least I think that's what KJP said at one time.  Or am I misremembering?

 

You are remembering correctly. A commuter rail service is anything that is on a travel corridor 135 miles or less in length and serves a regular daily ridership of workers, students and shoppers (a commuter isn't just someone heading to work).

Perhaps he was confusing that with Elyria, which lost a daytime Amtrak train service in 2003. But Elyria still has two other daily, but nocturnal Amtrak services. Lorain hasn't seen a regularly scheduled passenger train service since 1964.

The service that ended in 2003 didn't just affect Elyria. The service, called the Pennsylvanian and which operated from Chicago to Philadelphia via Toledo, Cleveland and Pittsburgh, was restructured as a Pittsburgh - Philadelphia - New York City service. The Pennsylvanian west of Pittsburgh depended on mail and package express shipments. Amtrak exited that business nationwide, terminating a number of trains which depended on it (including Amtrak's Three Rivers service from Chicago to New York City which stopped at stations in the Ohio cities of Fostoria, Akron and Youngstown).

Hourly service isn't the ideal, but a humongous leap over what exists now... Then comes the much-discussed problem of routing passengers directly into downtown and not just the fringes at either the New Center Amtrak or the currently-crumbling Michigan Central depot, both of which are outside of downtown.

 

MARC's Penn Line runs only once every hour during the day, and seems to work just fine for getting to BWI Airport.  I've never had a problem getting on a train.

 

The local transit service (i.e. buses) in Detroit are going to need to be beefed up to feed the commuter rail line, though.

Exerpt from a PD article on the Governor's recent speech in Cleveland.  

 

http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/stories/index.ssf?/base/isedu/1171974727176520.xml&coll=2

 

Development of other modes of transportation also will feed development, including greater emphasis on mass transit and intermodal transportation. But he said he does not see a statewide initiative for passenger rail service in the near future.

 

What gives?!?!?!?! This runs counter to his campaign and what was on his transistion website :wtf:

I wouldn't push the panic button here.  From what I am told by my sources, the Governor is still committed to the Ohio Hub, but decisions still need to be made on pursuing funding for advancing the plan into the Environmental Impact Study phase.  Given what they are faced with at ODOT regarding their funding problems, this won't be an easy challenge.

 

I think by "statewide initiative" what is meant is that the Governor doesn't see a statewide ballot issue on passenger rail.  If the P-D's reporter framed the question in those terms, the Governor is right in saying that probably isn't an option.  But the Ohio Hub has never been designed to have to be achieved via a statewide ballot issue.... so I wouldn't read too much into the quote.

Looks to me as tho the ODOT deficits have the Guv backtracking? I hope not.

My guess is that he wants to get a better read on what ODOT's total funding will be so he and Beasley can decide how much they can spend, and what they can spend it on.

Senator Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio) will be signing on as a co-sponsor for Senate Bill 294, the Passenger Rail Investment & Improvement Act.  This is certainly good news as he becomes the third Midwest Senator to sign on.  Senators Durbin of Illinois and Levin of Michigan have also sign as co-sponsors.

 

S-294 is a very good start to creating the kind of funding mechanism we need for the development of regional high-speed rail plans like the Ohio Hub and the Midwest Regional Rail Initiative.

 

If you would like a very good summary of the bill, go to the website for the National Association of Railroad Passenger website and read the summary written by Ohio's own (and All Aboard Ohio past president) Ed D'Amato.

 

Its great to see that the midwest is starting to unite on these issues.  Ohio, Illinois, and Michigan are all ready to get things rolling.  Things sound promising!

 

Here's a link to the summary:

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/resources/more/s_294/

My guess is that he wants to get a better read on what ODOT's total funding will be so he and Beasley can decide how much they can spend, and what they can spend it on.

 

Exactly.

At then end of the day, if you could only pick between increased rail service from cincy and cleveland to chicago or a CCC route, which would be more beneficial?

^and by that I mean Columbus, i just realised chicago also starts with a c.

If you read the Ohio Hub Study (www.ohiohub.com), it indicates the Cleveland-Columbus-Cincinnati Corridor is the strongest performing for both ridership & revenue.  But connecting any of those "C's" with Chicago are also good for the system as a whole.

 

I would love a Columbus-Chicago route.

EDIT: Delete Post

I thought this might be fun...I want to know what everyone's ideal layout would be for high speed rail in the US.  Obviously we are a LONG ways off from this goal, but its OK to dream...and this is a blog anyways!

I'll start it off:

 

This is what I think the best routes for the Midwest would be...while trying to connect in with both the Northeast corridor and Southern beltway.  I won't go into the details for a Mountain West and West Coast connection yet, because those get kind of sketchy due to the spread out nature of the area.

 

In this there is the East Coast line...and I am assuming that the CCC and Chicago - STL lines will come to fruition.

Midwest Corridors:

*The Midwest Hub would be CHICAGO, with CINCY & CLEVELAND serving as connector hubs to other regions*

 

DC - Cincy - Indy - Chicago - Milwaukee - Minneapolis/St. Paul

 

Boston - Buffalo - Toronto - Detroit - Toledo - Chicago

 

Philly - Pitts - Cleveland - Toledo - Chicago

 

Southern Corridors:

*The South Hub would be ATL, with MEMPHIS serving as a connector hub to other regions*

 

DC - Charlotte - ATL - NewOrl

 

Cincy - Louisville - Nashville - ATL - Jacksonville - Orlando - Tampa - Miami

 

 

These lines would hit a HUGE portion of the population and would essentially connect all of the midwest, south, and east coast with one another via high speed rail.

I just did a real quick population estimate and these lines alone would hit over 110 million people.  I took the CSA numbers for each potential stoping point on the lines and added them together to get this number.

Yeah that map sums it up. Perhaps line for St. Louis - Innapolis - Columbus - Pittsburgh. Another line for Innapolis-Ft Wayne-Toledo-Detroit. I don't know if a line from cincinatti to DC would work through west virginia

From what I have read, traveling over mountains is not possible with high speed rail.  That leaves Pittsburgh connected to nowhere except maybe Cleveland or Columbus.

 

My dream HS railroad would be fully electrified to take advantage of no-carbon electricity sources...someday.

 

I think we would have the most difficult time getting new alignments for HS rail.  HS rail worked in France because of "Napoleon", which was a policy-documentary's way of saying that France does not have a divided federal system of government, so France did not get bogged down in multiple levels of politics and legal fights at the federal and state levels.  I think we are going to be stuck with "the fastest trains we can use in the existing freight corridors".

Yeah that map sums it up. Perhaps line for St. Louis - Innapolis - Columbus - Pittsburgh. Another line for Innapolis-Ft Wayne-Toledo-Detroit. I don't know if a line from cincinatti to DC would work through west virginia

 

First off...its Indianapolis not Innapolis, and its Cincinnati not Cincinatti.

 

The rationale behind the line from DC - Cincy and so on, is because of the conversation at the national level of a line like this.  I don't know how to tackle the mountain issue, but I'm sure something could be worked out...these mountains are fairly tame and there are other places around the world that have dealt with this issue before.

 

I also would be wary of a line from Indy - Ft. Wayne - Toledo - Detroit.  You have a medium size metro...two small metros...and one large but strugling mightly metro.  I just don't know if the ridership would warrant the expense needed for this such route.

 

The STL - Indy - Cbus - Pitt line might very well work...but I would say it would be a lower priority as it is not serving any major metro (just 3 medium ones).

From what I have read, traveling over mountains is not possible with high speed rail.  That leaves Pittsburgh connected to nowhere except maybe Cleveland or Columbus.

 

If the Chinese can build a high-speed rail line across the Himalayas into Tibet, we ought to be able to surmount the Alleghenies.

From what I have read, traveling over mountains is not possible with high speed rail.  That leaves Pittsburgh connected to nowhere except maybe Cleveland or Columbus.

 

If the Chinese can build a high-speed rail line across the Himalayas into Tibet, we ought to be able to surmount the Alleghenies.

 

Yeah, but China's the greatest country in the world.

From what I have read, traveling over mountains is not possible with high speed rail.  That leaves Pittsburgh connected to nowhere except maybe Cleveland or Columbus.

 

If the Chinese can build a high-speed rail line across the Himalayas into Tibet, we ought to be able to surmount the Alleghenies.

What speed does it travel at?

From what I have read, traveling over mountains is not possible with high speed rail.  That leaves Pittsburgh connected to nowhere except maybe Cleveland or Columbus.

 

It's possible with tunnels.  The Europeans have built lots of them for their rail systems.  Expensive, yes, but feasible.

Pittsburgh-Columbus-Indianapolis-St. Louis-Kansas City should be included too. 

I think  Cleveland be better as the midwest Hub.Its connection are more fluid

 

:drunk: :whip: :drunk: :whip: :clap:

^Better than Chicago?  Cleveland is a good gateway to the North East.  Cincinnati is a good gateway to the south, but Chicago is the primate city of the region.

Where does one begin with such a discussion? It's sooo open ended! How about a few guidelines? Let's say we are going to use the $400 billion squandered in Iraq as a source of funding (this IS a fantasy, right?). Let's also assume we are going to stay away from maglev or monorail.

 

So what would I do? First, I'd call for a high speed (110-125 mph) passenger and freight rail network, to bring more players to the table. Passenger trains would be off the shelf technology, nothing radical, but light years ahead of what passes for passenger trains in this country. Freights would be high speed containers or roadrailers, good for 100 mph or more, segregating that traffic from conventional 10,000 ton coal drags and the like.

 

All of this would be funded by a joint public/private partnership between federal and state governments, freight railroads, UPS, USPS, FedEx and so on. These entities would form an authority to build and maintain infrastructure, while service could be provided by either Amtrak or the railroads (others would not be allowed by the freight RR's due to open access concerns and we'll be using RR rights of way a lot of the time).

 

Okay, so where do we run?  Let's limit this to the area east of the Mississippi, just to narrow things a bit.

 

High Level Trunk Corridors (either conventional 125 mph or TGV 185 mph. Depends on what you want to spend):

 

New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit/Chicago

New York-Albany-Buffalo-(Toronto/Detroit via Ontario)-Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati-Louisville

New York-Washington-Richmond-Charlotte-Atlanta/Florida

 

Other High Level corridors (same as above):

 

Northeast Corridor: Boston-New York-Philadelphia-Balimore-Washingon-Richmond and branches. Includes Inland route (Boston-New York via Springfield and Hartford), cross-Boston tunnel to connect w/ Maine and northern New England.

Chicago-St. Louis/Detroit/Milwaukee/Minneapolis/Cincinnati/Louisville

Atlanta-Birmingham/Chattanooga-Nashville/Charlotte/jacksonville

Florida corridors: Miami-Orlando-Tampa, Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa/Miami, Jacksonville-Miami

 

Mid Level corridors and connecting routes (up to 110 mph):

 

Pittsburgh-Columbus-Dayton-(Cincinnati)-Indianapolis-St. Louis

Cleveland-Indianapolis-St. Louis

Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincinnati-Louisville-Nashville-Memphis

Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincinnati-Atlanta-Florida

Chicago-Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta-Florida

Chicago-Carbondale-Memphis

 

There are more, but the idea would be to blanket the country with a mix of high speed daytime corridor service with multiple frequencies (example: Cleveland-Toledo-Chicago), overlaid with medium distance corridor service (example: New York-Buffalo-Cleveland), with long distance overnight services completing the mix (example: New York-Chicago/Detroit/Cincinnati/St. Louis/Pittsburgh/Atlanta).

 

Well you asked for it... :-D

 

 

What he said.

I'm a bad speller what can I say?

 

Indy - Ft. Wayne - Toledo - Detroit line. The idea is that Indy(growing?) is a good sized metro and so is Detroit. Ft. Wayne is a stop because its en-route (much like dayton) and perhaps isnt more than 2 trains daily stoping there. Toldedo is a stop so you can transfer from there to detroit, chicago, or cleveland.

^Better than Chicago?  Cleveland is a good gateway to the North East.  Cincinnati is a good gateway to the south, but Chicago is the primate city of the region.

 

This is the exact rationale I had...while Cleveland is a good place for a hub it should not be the main midwest hub.  Its not central, nor is it the top dog by any stretch.  Chicago is the capital of the midwest and is the major transportation and shipping hub for the midwest.

 

Cleveland would, imo, be a great transfer hub into the eastern corridor (I would be pretty happy with that seeing as how the eastern corridor is the shisnit).

 

Cincy is the natural transfer hub to the south...and STL to the west.

 

 

Where does one begin with such a discussion? It's sooo open ended! How about a few guidelines? Let's say we are going to use the $400 billion squandered in Iraq as a source of funding (this IS a fantasy, right?). Let's also assume we are going to stay away from maglev or monorail.

 

Of course this is fantasy...and completely open-ended.  I was not looking at any specifics in terms of money and/or feasibility in my suggestions, but I don't really think they looked into it either for the highway projects.

 

This is completely hypothetical...that is unless someone on here has a few hundred million dollars to get one of these lines going, then I'll get more specific.

Looking beyond all these ideas, the real key is to end up with an integrated, seamless SYSTEM. It should be possible to go anywhere you want without driving. You should have thru ticketing and luggage transfer between modes. All forms of public surface transportation should operate very frequently.

 

This is what it will take to really overcome the auto's biggest advantage: Flexibility.

^ Maybe not as flexible unless going long distance but lets not forget the other major competitor when it comes to transportation, the airlines.

I have reworked some of the stuff with my original map...and it now includes the entire county (with some Canadian stops as well).  These are the regions/corridors:

 

Eastern Seaboard (blue)

Midwest (red)

South (yellow)

Mountain West (orange)

Western Seaboard (green)

 

Now some of these lines, imo, wouldn't be worth the cost to construct (ie Denver - Dallas/Ft Worth)...but I included them for the sake of reducing travel time between large metropolitan areas.  The only other routes I think are possibilities would be:

 

Mobile - Tallahassee - Jacksonville

Salt Lake City - Portland

Salt Lake City - San Francisco/Oakland

Like it or not I don't think Cincinnati is as well suited to be the so-called Southern gateway for TGV-type high speed rail.  The terrain between Cincinnati and Louisville is relentlessly undulating, Cincinnati > Lexington would work but Lexington is not very big. 

 

Cincinnati > Dayton would be surprisingly slow...with only 20~ miles of 150mph and about 30 miles at 40mph the trip would be around 50-60 minutes.   

 

Cincinnati > Columbus would also not be quite as fast as one would hope either without significant improvements to Cincinnati's approaches, I'd estimate 80 miles @150mph and a total of 25 approach miles @40mph for both approaches for a total of about 1 hour 15 minutes. 

 

The answer is a station in Cincinnati's northern suburbs, say Evendale or Sharonville, where 10 slow-running miles could be eliminated from both routes saving upwards of 15 minutes.  The reality is that one could drive from Union Terminal to Sharonville on I-75 faster than the train could get there and the metro's actual population center is somewhere around Norwood. 

 

There's really no shortcut to Union Terminal and a double-track viaduct over the existing B&O mainline from there out to I-275 would be a colossal expense.