16 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

Needs a bar car.  

 

Ahhh...Let's go retro and have an all bar car train called The Drinker and staff it with Playboy Bunnies!

And Chris is off and running 🏆

6 hours ago, Oldmanladyluck said:

And Chris is off and running 🏆

 

He's already reaching out to people to pursue Amtrak, CVSR and RTA rail expansions.

Nice segment on Ohio rail expansion on Spectrum 1 News. Columbus-centric

https://spectrumnews1.com/oh/cleveland/news/2022/12/22/passenger-rail

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Thea Ewing, MORPC Chief Regional Development Officer, said in the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission's letter to the Federal Railroad Administration, they focused on a number of potential routes for central Ohio to be connected to other parts of our state and beyond. 

“I'm really excited and encouraged about the next steps for passenger rail in Ohio,” says MORPC Chief Regional Development Officer, Thea Ewing. 

What You Need To Know

Ohio has conducted passenger rail studies ever since the 1990s and Gov Kasich rejected a $400 million plan in 2010 

 

Advocates are banking on the 3C&D corridor that would connect Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati 

 

The Federal Railroad Administration will be accepting applications for their Corridor Identification Program for new routes before March 2023 

“Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus to Cleveland, is known as the 3C&D line. We also have multiple lines we're studying from Pittsburgh through Columbus on up through Marysville area and then onto Chicago," said Ewing. "You can see different lines we're looking at for that. That is known as the Midwest Connect Line. And then off that route, also a line to Toledo and Detroit which we are really excited about." 

 

More good coverage today on Ohio Amtrak plans: ( @MyPhoneDead posted below in Amtrak thread)

 

31 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Is Ohio finally on board for Amtrak expansion? State ‘strongly considering’ seeking federal money for new train service

 

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – The state of Ohio is “strongly considering” applying for federal dollars that could lead to expanded passenger rail service throughout the state, including establishment of a new route connecting Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati.

Meanwhile, officials in Northeast Ohio are definitely planning to pursue funding that could establish Cleveland as an Amtrak mini-hub, with more frequent service to Chicago, New York City, Washington, D.C. and other cities.

 

The source of the funding for both potential expansions is a new federal inititave, dubbed the Corridor Identification and Development Program, part of $66 billion in additional money for rail service included in the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, passed by Congress in late 2021.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/01/is-ohio-finally-on-board-for-amtrak-expansion-state-strongly-considering-seeking-federal-money-for-new-train-service.html

 

 

 

NOACA will pursue funding for a service development plan for Chicago-Cleveland and Cleveland-Pittsburgh, possibly as an extension of Pennsylvania's planned expansion of Keystone West service. 

Look at how great Ohio 3C&D is! (Thx for tweeting this, @thomasbw)

 

 

Also, I updated my Google map version of Ohio’s passenger train proposals:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=15lcIcdt6ccSaZsZlUVtirtBH_kxw-yGG&usp=sharing

 

In another, better, universe; Ohioans realized that the state's interurban systems were a vital piece of public infrastructure and they were preserved. Here's hoping the state's politicians realize how good of a deal Amtrak is proposing.

Since the Ohio Rail Development Commission canceled its January meeting I am wondering if that signals a change from state leadership on passenger rail especially now that the major Cities and MPO's are advocating for expanded Amtrak service.

I want to believe

Also, they actually have a board position for passenger rail but it's vacant. What's up with that?

34 minutes ago, Dev said:

Also, they actually have a board position for passenger rail but it's vacant. What's up with that?

 

Not only that, their last staffers who had experience with passenger rail planning/development have retired. No one with similar experience has replaced them. ORDC has no concern for passenger rail. ZERO.

This estimate bugs me, because if they only spend $100M on Ohio 3C&D, the speed is going to be crappy and the reliability would be subpar. Is the $100M estimate for the 6:30 hour CLE-Cincy run time version of the project? The article didn’t clarify. 13 yrs ago, the additional funding that got the project to $400M was specially to get the time down to 5:15, IIRC. Based on that, I was thinking that the new proposal would be in the $400-$550M range. The service will get used either way, but I would think ridership would benefit substantially from the faster run time of the increased capital version. Meaning that the operating subsidy would be much lower. And the operating subsidy is the much more critical element from a political perspective in this state. I’d hate for a subpar service to undermine further investment.
Thanks for tweeting that article @thomasbw

 

3C startup at 79 mph was projected to cost $500+ million 13 years ago. Prices don't go down, certainly not for infrastructure. Today, if we wanted 79 mph 3C with the first 110 mph portion London-Columbus-Greenwich, it would probably be closer to $1 billion.

Good news this morning!!

 

DeWine takes ‘first step’ toward Ohio Amtrak expansion by seeking federal money

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/02/dewine-takes-first-step-toward-ohio-amtrak-expansion-by-seeking-federal-money.html

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Good news this morning!!

 

DeWine takes ‘first step’ toward Ohio Amtrak expansion by seeking federal money

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2023/02/dewine-takes-first-step-toward-ohio-amtrak-expansion-by-seeking-federal-money.html

I’m relatively confident that if DeWine had been elected governor in 2010 instead of Kasich, we’d already have 3C&D and we’d now be applying for Infrastructure Bill money to improve the speed and frequency. (Instead, DeWine ran for and won the Attorney General race in 2010.)

 

I’m much more concerned about the Ohio legislature than the governor, but it is good that he is somewhat supportive. 
 

Also, if they only spend $100M on 3C&D the reliability would be subpar. Poor reliability is the ONLY thing that would make this proposal “unsuccessful”. And even in that case it’ll still be useful. I’m hoping the project is more in the $500-$650M range. Ideal would be the $1B+ to get 110mph speeds for a good chunk of it. Imagine if express service from CLE-Columbus took 1.5 hours? Increasing the capital spending will decrease the required operating subsidy (because the improved service will sell many more tickets), and the latter is probably the more difficult political challenge. 

Moving the 3C&D convo here from the Amtrak thread.

55 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

^ yikes!

 

 

lol he literally answered his own question here, didnt he?:

 

 

“Fran and I have done a lot of traveling on Amtrak over the years,” said DeWine, referring to his wife. “So we like trains. But the question is, you know, can we afford it? And is it going to work?”

 

5 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

"will it work"

 

I think that some people who have experience riding long-distance Amtrak trains but not the Northeast Corridor have a legit point, since Cincinnati>Dayton and even Cincinnati>Columbus are very short drives.  It's hard to imagine that there will be a ton of traffic between Cincinnati and Columbus or much at all between Cincinnati and Dayton amongst those who already own cars.    

 

My hunch is that much if not most of the ridership will be Cleveland>Dayton or Cleveland>Cincinnati, since that is the distance where driving turns into a hassle.    

 

Counterpoint: There are MANY more people trips between Cleveland and Columbus than between CLE and Dayton or Cincy. Even if the train got a smaller share percentage, there will still be more total train trips of the former than the latter. And like any rail project, reliability, frequency, and speed improvements would be critical to growing the modal share. So yes, at 3x a day, Cincy to Dayton ridership is probably low. But if we got the frequency to 8-10x/day, many more would take the train. 
 

Milwaukee-Chicago Amtrak gets great ridership and it’s only 90 miles! Chicago metro population and car hassle downtown are big drivers of that ridership, but I’ve also talked to plenty of people who hate driving in the downtown of the 3Cs. My message is to remind people that a service doesn’t have to be ideal for everyone to be extremely helpful for some people.

I think the route will be Columbus centric.  Times are more competitive with driving and business travel will support the destination taxi/rental car costs. Yes, the longer routes will have ridership, but I predict state government business will fill the business class car on every trip.  Notice how lukewarm DeWine was before Columbus civic parties got interested.

23 minutes ago, Dougal said:

I think the route will be Columbus centric.  Times are more competitive with driving and business travel will support the destination taxi/rental car costs. Yes, the longer routes will have ridership, but I predict state government business will fill the business class car on every trip.  Notice how lukewarm DeWine was before Columbus civic parties got interested.

DeWine was lukewarm until he won reelection because he knows passenger rail is viewed negatively by many Ohio Republican politicians. Now he can pivot to creating a legacy project. I certainly don’t expect it to be one of his top priorities, but I do think he’ll continue to push for it. 
 

I agree that there will be lots of Ohio government ridership. @KJP has pointed out that Ohio will save a good chunk of money by sending state employees via rail rather than reimbursing personal vehicle mileage. This could help in justifying the operating subsidy from the state. 

I've admittedly been half paying attention since I didn't think we'd even get this far so maybe it has been answered but will any of the routes in Ohio be dedicated rail lines? Or is this relying on sharing existing freight lines? 

I'm pretty sure it's relying on existing freight RoW. There's really no good way to connect the downtowns of the 3Cs and Dayton without using NS and CSX main lines. Hopefully they can make sure service is frequent and high quality

 

1 hour ago, Dougal said:

 Notice how lukewarm DeWine was before Columbus civic parties got interested.

 

Also, Columbus has the best station location, given its proximity to both downtown Columbus and OSU.  By comparison, the Cincinnati station will either be isolated (Union Terminal) or downtown (Transit Center).  In either case, it won't be as convenient or visible to UC students as the Columbus station will be to OSU students.  

 

 

 

DeWine to Apply for Federal Funds to Study Amtrak Expansion

 

Governor Mike DeWine’s administration plans to apply for federal money to study Amtrak expansion in Ohio, a key initial step in what could still be a long process to bring passenger rail back to Columbus.

 

The request for funding will come through the Ohio Rail Development Commission (ORDC) and will be focused on two specific corridors to start – Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincinnati (known as the 3C+D line), and Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit.

 

If approved by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), the state would be awarded $500,000 for each corridor. Those funds would go toward a consultant who would identify the track improvements, new stations and other equipment or facilities needed on each corridor to get passenger service up and running.

 

More below:

https://columbusunderground.com/dewine-to-apply-for-federal-funds-to-study-amtrak-expansion-bw1/

 

DeWine asks for federal money to look at Cincinnati Amtrak expansion

 

Gov. Mike DeWine's administration will ask federal officials for money to study the feasibility of expanding Amtrak service in Ohio, including a new route between Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus and Cleveland.

 

It's a small, first step toward boosting the state's anemic passenger rail options, something rejected by DeWine's predecessor, John Kasich, more than a decade ago.

 

While the governor has not echoed Kasich's bombastic opposition to Amtrak, he has been cautious, warning that he wants a better understanding of the operating costs and benefits before the state makes a full-fledged commitment.

 

“This is the first step of many in this process. We have a lot of questions that need to be answered before we make any commitments,” DeWine said. “The information we gather from this effort will help us make informed decisions about federal opportunities for passenger rail in Ohio.”

 

The state faces a March 27 application deadline for the Ohio Rail Development Commission to ask for the funds, which would provide the state $500,000 for consultants to study each route.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/02/08/dewine-asks-for-federal-money-amtrak-expansion.html

 

Just now, JaceTheAce41 said:

I'm pretty sure it's relying on existing freight RoW. There's really no good way to connect the downtowns of the 3Cs and Dayton without using NS and CSX main lines. Hopefully they can make sure service is frequent and high quality

 

 

The entire run between Dayton and Columbus is single-track.  They will probably need to add passing sidings in this area.  

 

But the double-tracked but extremely busy railroads approaching Cincinnati will be a total mess.  If you recall the 2010~ debacle, there wasn't enough money for the track improvements necessary to bring 5 trains per day into Cincinnati's Union Terminal.  Trains were instead going to terminate about five miles north of downtown, north of the Ivorydale Junction.  It's going to cost well over $100 million to build the fourth parallel track between the Queensgate Yard and Ivorydale Junction.  

 

 

Gov. DeWine on board with first step toward Amtrak expansion in Ohio

 

Gov. Mike DeWine supports the first step toward expanding Amtrak passenger rail in Ohio – including the long wished-for route connecting Columbus to Cleveland, Dayton and Cincinnati.

 

The governor directed the Ohio Rail Development Commission on Wednesday to apply for federal grants to study adding the "3C+D" route as well as one connecting Cleveland to Detroit via Toledo, according to a news release. The two routes were among ones that Amtrak itself proposed in 2021.

 

"We have a lot of questions that need to be answered before we make any commitments,” DeWine said in the release. “The information we gather from this effort will help us make informed decisions about federal opportunities for passenger rail in Ohio."

 

If awarded, no state money is required for this grant of as much as $500,000 for the consultant study. The next step for grantees that advance is a more comprehensive service development plan, which requires a 10% state match.

 

"The governor has been very clear that for this to work for Ohio, it is not just a matter of cost," Matthew Dietrich, the commission's executive director, said in the release. "It has to be done in a way that does not impede freight rail traffic in the state that is so important to our economy and our businesses.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2023/02/08/dewine-yes-amtrak-study-grant.html

 

I'm hoping for the best of course.  

I do hope that Ohio would have some autonomy over scheduling.  Part of the success of the service in states like North Carolina is customizing schedules based on events in Charlotte etc.  I have friends that travel Raleigh-Charlotte every Sunday for Panther's home games.    With Columbus in the middle, it would be great to tailor some scheduling to Cleveland, Cinci and Dayton Ohio State fans, as well as the other way for Columbus residents wanting to attend events in Cleveland and Cinci.  

6 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I'm hoping for the best of course.  

I do hope that Ohio would have some autonomy over scheduling.  Part of the success of the service in states like North Carolina is customizing schedules based on events in Charlotte etc.  I have friends that travel Raleigh-Charlotte every Sunday for Panther's home games.    With Columbus in the middle, it would be great to tailor some scheduling to Cleveland, Cinci and Dayton Ohio State fans, as well as the other way for Columbus residents wanting to attend events in Cleveland and Cinci.  

 

This is a big reason why I never understood why Tennessee never followed North Carolina's example.  UT is at one end of the state.  Nashville is 200 miles away and Memphis is 400 miles away.  Aside from daily/weekend business from students, tens of thousands of people drive across the whole damn state to attend games.      

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Cleburger said:

I'm hoping for the best of course.  

I do hope that Ohio would have some autonomy over scheduling.  Part of the success of the service in states like North Carolina is customizing schedules based on events in Charlotte etc.  I have friends that travel Raleigh-Charlotte every Sunday for Panther's home games.    With Columbus in the middle, it would be great to tailor some scheduling to Cleveland, Cinci and Dayton Ohio State fans, as well as the other way for Columbus residents wanting to attend events in Cleveland and Cinci.  

 

I mentioned it elsewhere but the Cincinnati station locations won't be idea for people visiting UC games.  Imagine 300 people getting off a train and ordering rideshare at the same time between Union Terminal and UC.  

 

Per mapquest, the distance between these points is three miles.  The #31 bus does connect those two points, but 300 people would overload a single city bus, and that line isn't very frequent.  

https://www.go-metro.com/uploads/routes/maps_and_schedules/RT_31.pdf

 

23 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

I mentioned it elsewhere but the Cincinnati station locations won't be idea for people visiting UC games.  Imagine 300 people getting off a train and ordering rideshare at the same time between Union Terminal and UC.  

 

Per mapquest, the distance between these points is three miles.  The #31 bus does connect those two points, but 300 people would overload a single city bus, and that line isn't very frequent.  

https://www.go-metro.com/uploads/routes/maps_and_schedules/RT_31.pdf

 

 

That's a pretty manageable problem... If there are special game-day trains to bring out-of-town crowds in, like @Cleburger suggested, one would think the city would have a shuttle service between the station and the stadiums before and after the games. 

 

That's also assuming that the cities' transit agencies don't reorient their routes to better serve a more active Amtrak station. 

2 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

 

That's a pretty manageable problem... If there are special game-day trains to bring out-of-town crowds in, like @Cleburger suggested, one would think the city would have a shuttle service between the station and the stadiums before and after the games. 

 

That's also assuming that the cities' transit agencies don't reorient their routes to better serve a more active Amtrak station. 

 

A small operation like what is proposed for Ohio typically doesn't have any extra trains and they run the exact same schedule 7 days a week.  Amtrak's Downeaster between Boston and Maine is a good example of this - just two trains.  That run is short enough that they get 7~ trains per day in each direction out of just two train sets.  

 

23 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 

A small operation like what is proposed for Ohio typically doesn't have any extra trains and they run the exact same schedule 7 days a week.  Amtrak's Downeaster between Boston and Maine is a good example of this - just two trains.  That run is short enough that they get 7~ trains per day in each direction out of just two train sets.  

 

 

Okay, sure. The current station location in Cincinnati can still be convenient for people if they wanted to visit UC. I think it is a mistake to think transit service wouldn't be improved at any stations in any of the major cities. 

Edited February 8, 20232 yr by Luke_S

I have to travel to Columbus for work fairly often and would absolutely love to have this as an option. Even if it takes longer than driving, you can be on your laptop on the whole train ride so the whole travel time is productive time, as opposed to the 1.5 hours of driving each way where you can't (safely) do anything except talk on the phone. 

If this uses existing freight rail and relies on pull off, this will never be successful. 

 

By federal law, priority must be given to passenger rail however the federal government has never enforced it or taken action against freight rail for violating it. Freight rail still controls all the access. The biggest problem is now freight rail makes the trains longer then the pull offs so passenger has to yield. 

 

The governors spokesperson also highlights that their priority is to not impede freight rail at all. (Paraphrased) 'We have to make sure it doesn't impact freight rail which is vital to our economy'.

 

The administration needs to couple all this investment with enforcement of federal law prioritizing passenger rail.  

 

This timely video will then be particularly applicable to any passenger rail that shares with freight. 

 

 

I thought most amtrak routes used freight lines

8 hours ago, DTCL11 said:

If this uses existing freight rail and relies on pull off, this will never be successful. 

 

By federal law, priority must be given to passenger rail however the federal government has never enforced it or taken action against freight rail for violating it. Freight rail still controls all the access. The biggest problem is now freight rail makes the trains longer then the pull offs so passenger has to yield. 

 

The governors spokesperson also highlights that their priority is to not impede freight rail at all. (Paraphrased) 'We have to make sure it doesn't impact freight rail which is vital to our economy'.

 

The administration needs to couple all this investment with enforcement of federal law prioritizing passenger rail.  

 

This timely video will then be particularly applicable to any passenger rail that shares with freight. 

 

 

 

I agree that Feds need to enforce Amtrak priority over freight. That said, I think we should avoid the term “unsuccessful “ with 3C&D. As long as there are at least 3x  trains each direction, it’s going to get decent ridership and will be worth the effort. There is a good chunk of Ohio population - seniors and students - that aren’t in a hurry and just need basic transport that feels safer and more comfortable than a bus. Plus many of these cities pairs aren’t even connected via bus. Reliability, frequency, and speed - in that order - will generate more ridership and would be worth the investment, but their absence isn’t a death sentence. I’d prefer to characterize these options as good, better, best. 
Good: $100M to buy train sets, build basic stations in Cbus, Dayton, and CLE Hopkins airport (maybe at Brookpark RTA for existing parking lot and direct Rapid rail to terminal),  and platforms at the other stops, and add some LONG passing sidings. (I emphasize I’d be disappointed with this, but I think it’s still worthwhile)
(Much) better: $500-$650M for above plus infra upgrades to get 79 mph on many sections. Proper stations (perhaps via public/private partnerships) in Cbus, Dayton, plus CLE station upgrades and Cincy UT connection infrastructure, basic stations in the other towns. Basically the final version of Fed proposal during the Strickland administration, indexed for inflation. 
Best: $1B +/- x100s of millions, Above plus more train sets for 8-10x/day each way service, 110mph infra for good chunks (additional track in existing freight RoW), move cleveland station to Terminal Tower, proper CLE airport station, fund NS downtown CLE bypass, dedicated passenger only RoW in Cincy (shift the mirrored freight RoW to a single RoW), probably some other things. 
Super best: world class HSR in dedicated RoW. Probably not worth it unless there was connecting HSR from Chicago to Cleveland or Columbus and on to Pitt, Philly, and NYC. 
 

1x a day with bad reliability due to freight is the only version I’d be against. 

 

8 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

I thought most amtrak routes used freight lines

Yes, nearly all Amtrak service outside the Northeast corridor is on freight track, most of which is actively used for freight. 

On Amtrak routes where they run multiple daily trains, the most reliable ones are where Amtrak has taken over dispatching and the freight trains have moved to parallel routes or to the overnight hours when Amtrak doesn't run. This is true on the New York-Albany Empire Corridor, the Philadelphia-Harrisburg Keystone Corridor, and the Detroit-Chicago Wolverine Corridor. The latter, however, depends on a section from Porter, Indiana into Chicago that is heavily used by freight trains and which Amtrak doesn't dispatch. Some additional tracks have been laid along this section to ease the congestion but they still run into delays with freight trains.

 

Virginia is developing a pretty successful model where they added significant new capacity along shared routes and get contractual buy-in from the freight railroads. Pennsylvania is pursuing this approach as well with the added service west of Harrisburg to Pittsburgh.

By the way, why was this thread renamed with the 3C&D corridor? ODOT is also going to be seeking money for Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit. NOACA is going to be seeking money for routes East and West out of Cleveland. MORPC will seek money for Chicago-Fort Wayne-Columbus-Pittsburgh. And OKI will seek money to enhance the Cardinal route from Cincinnati to Chicago. 

35 minutes ago, KJP said:

By the way, why was this thread renamed with the 3C&D corridor? ODOT is also going to be seeking money for Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit. NOACA is going to be seeking money for routes East and West out of Cleveland. MORPC will seek money for Chicago-Fort Wayne-Columbus-Pittsburgh. And OKI will seek money to enhance the Cardinal route from Cincinnati to Chicago. 

Ha, because @ColDayMan lives in Columbus so 3C&D is the only route he cares about. :) 

Yes, this is about more than 3C+D. Please change it back.

23 hours ago, Lazarus said:

By comparison, the Cincinnati station will either be isolated (Union Terminal) or downtown (Transit Center).

 

In the event that 3C+D becomes a reality Cincinnati and would use the Riverfront Transit Center as its station (which I think would be great), would the Cardinal also switch to there…or…would it keep using Union Terminal?

8 minutes ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

In the event that 3C+D becomes a reality Cincinnati and would use the Riverfront Transit Center as its station (which I think would be great), would the Cardinal also switch to there…or…would it keep using Union Terminal?

 

The Cardinal can't use the Transit Center *and* its current route in Kentucky.  There is no way for the train to back out AND cross the C&O Bridge to the C&O mainline that heads westward to West Virginia.  

 

There are two ways that The Cardinal could use the Transit Center as a through station:

1. exit the east side of the Transit Center on new track, cross the Ohio River on the old L&N Bridge, travel down Saratoga St. in Newport, turn onto the C&O at this point:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0867316,-84.4865722,203m/data=!3m1!1e3

2. exit the east side of the Transit Center on new track, connect with the Oasis Line near the base of the L&N Bridge, head east to Portsmouth Ohio on the N-S "Peavine" route, cross to the C&O tracks on this bridge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4059897,-82.5747022,1157m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Twenty miles of the Peavine line would need to be rebuilt.  I really like this alternative because there is almost no traffic on the Oasis or Peavine lines, meaning there wouldn't be much of a chance for delays. 

 

Aside from the expense, one disadvantage is that it would remove Maysville, KY from Amtrak's network in favor of Portsmouth.  

 

 

It would be difficult to get the Cardinal into the transit center. Unless you do like I want and cross the Ohio River at Huntington WV and run the Cardinal to Portsmouth and on the Peavine into the east side. Union Terminal is the best place for a train station.

 

Ohio, planning orgs plan Amtrak expansions
By Ken Prendergast / February 9, 2023

 

While Gov. Mike DeWine made the big news this week about Ohio seeking federal money to plan for and pursue Amtrak passenger rail expansion on two Cleveland-based routes, those aren’t the only routes that will be pursued. The Northeast Ohio Areawide Coordinating Agency (NOACA) also confirmed today that it will be seeking funds for similar plans but for several other routes ending in Cleveland. If realized, the services that could result from those expansions would turn downtown Cleveland into a mini-hub for Amtrak.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2023/02/09/ohio-planning-orgs-plan-amtrak-expansions/

I think access to the Cincinnati Riverfront Transit Center is off the table at this point for intercity rail with the construction of the Artistry Apartments on Pete Rose Way on the East as well as ODOT's planned work for I-75 on the west buying  the CIND ditch track at Longworth Hall and all the bridges for the new river crossing.

 

Expansion for dedicated passenger boarding tracks at CUT will likely require NS to give up some of its Gest Street Intermodal Yard and reconstruction of a concourse overhead similar to but as a smaller scale as the original design.

6 hours ago, Lazarus said:

 

The Cardinal can't use the Transit Center *and* its current route in Kentucky.  There is no way for the train to back out AND cross the C&O Bridge to the C&O mainline that heads westward to West Virginia.  

 

There are two ways that The Cardinal could use the Transit Center as a through station:

1. exit the east side of the Transit Center on new track, cross the Ohio River on the old L&N Bridge, travel down Saratoga St. in Newport, turn onto the C&O at this point:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0867316,-84.4865722,203m/data=!3m1!1e3

2. exit the east side of the Transit Center on new track, connect with the Oasis Line near the base of the L&N Bridge, head east to Portsmouth Ohio on the N-S "Peavine" route, cross to the C&O tracks on this bridge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4059897,-82.5747022,1157m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Twenty miles of the Peavine line would need to be rebuilt.  I really like this alternative because there is almost no traffic on the Oasis or Peavine lines, meaning there wouldn't be much of a chance for delays. 

 

Aside from the expense, one disadvantage is that it would remove Maysville, KY from Amtrak's network in favor of Portsmouth.  

 

 

 

It's kind of ridiculous that the "Portsmouth" train station is in South Shore KY considering how low the population is on that side of the river as compared to the Ohio side. I'm sure there's reasons for it. Portsmouth has a university while Maysville doesn't so that should factor in. I remember having to drive people to all kinds of places to get them where they needed to go such as the Greyhound station, the Kentucky Amtrak station and even places like Athens in the ridiculous Dodge Ram I had in college. All these Democrat girls and international students without cars couldn't believe the truck despite it being considered almost mandatory when taking into account social norms in rural Ohio at the time (probably even moreso today). You can only imagine the comments I got living in Washington DC with the thing.

10 hours ago, KJP said:

By the way, why was this thread renamed with the 3C&D corridor? ODOT is also going to be seeking money for Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit. NOACA is going to be seeking money for routes East and West out of Cleveland. MORPC will seek money for Chicago-Fort Wayne-Columbus-Pittsburgh. And OKI will seek money to enhance the Cardinal route from Cincinnati to Chicago. 

 

It's for both Ohio Intercity Rail AND 3C+D.  So yes, the Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit would also go in here.  Much like how we share neighborhoods into one thread ala Clark-Fulton / Stockyards.  Adjacent subject matter.  Having a separate 3C+D thread from Ohio Intercity Rail would seem to have crossover issues.  But to be fair, I'll put it in (---) to keep it mainly Intercity rail for the state.

2 hours ago, GHOST TRACKS said:

I think access to the Cincinnati Riverfront Transit Center is off the table at this point for intercity rail with the construction of the Artistry Apartments on Pete Rose Way on the East

 

The Artistry building isn't blocking access to the existing tracks at all.  The plan has always been to build the track parallel to the north side of Pete Rose Way.  The crazy California Box Girder overpass was built expressly to create the long span necessary for the tracks to access the Transit Center from this future ROW.

 

The new tracks would travel at-grade where this mound landscaping now sits:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0990456,-84.5045727,3a,62.1y,75.37h,105.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFTcT0mJ3tr3i1kfLJw_B7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

I drew the approximate alignment of the access tracks on the attached file. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, GHOST TRACKS said:

Expansion for dedicated passenger boarding tracks at CUT will likely require NS to give up some of its Gest Street Intermodal Yard and reconstruction of a concourse overhead similar to but as a smaller scale as the original design.

 

While this might be the case, I think people are making too much of the potential difficulty of CUT. If there are only three trains in and out per day, you won't have a train idling while another is arriving. The current single track boarding area should be adequate. The only drawback I see to CUT right now is its distance from downtown. However a dedicated bus route, ride share and (hopefully) a future streetcar connection should fix that.

 

That being said, I'd like to see NS move intermodal operations to Sharonville

Edited February 10, 20232 yr by JaceTheAce41

57 minutes ago, JaceTheAce41 said:

 

While this might be the case, I think people are making too much of the potential difficulty of CUT. If there are only three trains in and out per day, you won't have a train idling while another is arriving. The current single track boarding area should be adequate. The only drawback I see to CUT right now is its distance from downtown. However a dedicated bus route, ride share and (hopefully) a future streetcar connection should fix that.

 

That being said, I'd like to see NS move intermodal operations to Sharonville

 

I'd like to see Queensgate Yard moved to a flat area across the Great Miami River from West Carrolton and Miamisburg. It would allow more room for expansion of the yard and the old Queensgate could be redeveloped with road- and rail-served industries and could also help boost industrial/warehousing development south of Dayton. For passenger rail, I would consolidate all of the freight on CSX  and all the passenger service to NS south of Dayton and then flip them north of Carlise to put all of the passenger service on CSX through Hamilton. This would permit 110 mph passenger rail service from Dayton to Cincinnati (plus fast trains to/from Chicago). And with Queensgate gone from Cincinnati, it would provide a relatively congestion-free route to Cincinnati Union Terminal or wherever Cincy wants its urban core passenger station.